Weapon switching still isn't fair - Here's why

@bleu-solo
Hilariously enough, quick-swap (undoubtedly as an exploit) is now back as of one of the more recent updates.

@felix-ashur
Which is part of the reason I made this post. I miss quickswap for sure, but it's not something I did exclusively for the speed advantage so much as the mobility that you have. Even though I liked the original method, I disliked the new crouch quickswap. Crouch quickswap was nothing about mobility and purely about the small (300ms) speed advantage - glad it's being removed.

With the old method you were able to run around and be 100% confident that when you stop running your gun is ready to aim and shoot.

Nowadays it's really a guessing game if you've sprinted long enough, should you sprint longer? That inconsistency is what this post is all about. We want the guns to feel fluid and predictable and right now it's a mess.

@bleu-solo
Ah. Ok, that makes a lot of sense there. Though, if I might offer a suggestion, if they are going to legitimize and fix it, they really should add in-game information about it so it's not just a "hidden mechanic" that only the people that are caught up on the most recent pvp news updates know about.

They wouldn't have needed all the patch work and heavy handedness if bad actors stopped abusing the system. Quick swapping was kept as long as it was because they wanted the weapons to feel smooth and intuitive. You only have your community to blame here.

Until hitreg [let alone all of the s14 mechanics] is fixed I don't think they need to devote any more time to weapon feel.

@felix-ashur
That's the beauty of the solution I'm proposing - if you stand still and shoot, or choose to run and shoot your first shot and second shot will stay the same every time. It wouldn't need it's own information/bulletin board, it would just feel natural - nothing to figure out, no tricks. You shoot the same speed no matter what.

When 1000 ms has past and your gun is ready to fire, the ADS animation will play out even if a wield animation is currently playing.

For Example: Say you sprint for 500 ms, the wield animation will play out partially for 500 ms then transition to the ADS animation because the timer has reached the 1000 ms that Rare intended.

This is in contrast with the current system where if you sprint for 500 ms, the wield animation will play out in full for 1000 ms, meaning there is a delay of 1500 ms between shots when the intended delay is actually 1000 ms. That's the inconsistency that players hate the feel of

@captain-fob4141
Everyone shouldn't have to suffer just because of the bad actors. And I don't believe anyone has to suffer. There are definitely solutions to the problem at hand which both patch quickswap and don't involve clunk/poor weapon feel.

Hit reg actually feels a lot better and seems to work very well now for the guns. I can't speak for all weapons, but the sniper, pistol, and blunderbuss registration feels quite nice these days.

Server performance & weapon feel are at the top of the list for me personally.

@eastthread51441
That is how they first patched it last year, but they adjusted it a few weeks later to what we have now because it was too much clunk.

The proper fix was if a player sprints before the weapon unstow animation ends then the animation should be restarted from the beginning regardless if the player just shot a gun or not.*
However if a player sprints after the unstow animation finishes and does not swap their weapon then as soon as they stop sprinting the weapon is immediately available to hipfire or ads and fire.

The problem with the method as you described it is that if you:

1. Stop to play 90% of the wield animation
2. Sprint
3. Back to step 1

If you followed those steps then you'd be in an infinite loop where your gun is never ready even though way more than enough time has past and you may feel as if the wield delay has been achieved. This is janky and makes the weapons feel unpredictable.

You'd want the shot to be determined by how much time has past since the previous one. This way a player can only deal so much damage per second.

@eastthread51441

Yes sometimes the animation appears to be finished when it’s not.

It reduces the mobility if you are not able to sprint after shooting. Especially if you are being chased by a sword you may have no opportunity to wait for the wield animation and must sprint long enough that the shot timer has run out. Which is why the most recent patch is less tragic than what they had, because you can sprint for 1000 ms then turn around to shoot the second shot. However less than 1000 ms and you will have an unpredictable result of having the additional 1000 ms delay which is unintentional.

But still makes gun fights between 2 players who both have 2 guns unfair due to one player having a delay if they sprinted for less time than someone who sprinted slightly longer.

@bleu-solo I do get you perspective. I understand wanting the thing you enjoy to be focused on. But you need to police your side of the community or find a game with better weapon feel.

When dealing with gamebreaking bugs that delayed the release of other key components of an update, having to remove crouching because of quick swapping and crud launching is a massive waste of resources. The bugs exist, sure but they could have been put on the back burner if bad actors didn't abuse them. The TDM community that has allowed if not encouraged the use of exploits is becoming a serious drain on the game's resources.

Content creators pushing exploits and cheats need to be shunned before we talk about weapon feel and QoL that will be abused by the people asking for it.

@captain-fob4141
100% get rid of the crouching exploits. Not really what this post is about, but I agree. The crouching exploit is purely for shooting faster and should be removed.

Mobility is the case in making here. If you’re just a few milliseconds off with your sprinting, even though you shot first- someone that shot second, but sprinted longer than you will shoot their 2nd bullet faster than you. That’s what doesn’t make sense and that is the issue im attempting to point out and have resolved.

@eastthread51441
I agree with getting rid of the 1-shot. The knock-back is excessive. But again I'm here to point out the flaws with mobility between 2 players both fighting each-other with 2 guns. Not the changes to the blunderbuss which are unrelated to this point.

And the mobility desired and proposed is to not allow shooting faster than intended while ensuring that whoever fires the first shot in a gun fight can always have the ability to shoot the 2nd shot before the other player. It’s a flaw with the current system that I wish to acknowledge.

If you watch the video in the first post you will see 2 examples of player sprinting. One player can shoot - sprint longer - shoot nearly a full second faster than the other player that shoots - sprints a shorter duration and shoots. It’s illogical and definitely a bug.

Both players shoot - sprint - shoot, but one faster than the other due to the duration of the sprint.

@eastthread51441
Temu translation maybe.

You are missing the point. No, sprinting no longer allows you to shoot faster than intended.. even if you sprint for a while. I’m not arguing a case to allow it to do so. Please read from the beginning or watch the video which shows that players who both sprint one is penalized for sprinting a few milliseconds shorter than the other which sprints longer.

And the solution offered is to allow the player sprinting shorter to have the wield delay interrupted by the ADS because the shot timer has expired.

The only reason for the wield delay was to delay the time between shots. The time between shots should be consistent- not allowing you to shoot any faster or slower than another player. The point is to have a fair game.

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Not being able to sprint while eating is to not allow running away to be too overpowered. Otherwise no one would ever die. You can either try to run dodge the next shot lowering the chance the opponent will hit you, or walk while eating having a higher likelihood you are hit, but the reward is being higher health if they miss. You can’t have both.

Perhaps the easy, and maybe even best, solution is to simply make it so that we can't use one animation or function to cancel/bypass another. Simple as.
If you pull out your second gun, play the full animation, then sprint. No sprinting to get out of doing the animation you specifically told the game you wanted to do.
Action commitment. Don't switch weapons unless you want to commit to doing the entire weapon switch before sprinting, and if you want to sprint after shooting, don't change weapons until you're done sprinting.

@eastthread51441
The stutter you are referring to is the first clip which is an example. And yes this can easily happen to any player by accident without trying to quick swap.

But watch starting at 0:17 in the video. There is no stutter and shows that one player that sprints just slightly longer shoots first. Both players sprinting a reasonable distance. And I propose to allow both players to shoot the same speed. It’s okay to swallow your pride and admit the mistake.

@the-old-soul800

This is another very good solution. Allow the wield animation to play out while sprinting. Both players shoot same speed - all I want.

@eastthread51441
There is the mobility issue. Not sprinting you open yourself to attack from the other player unable to dodge. And how do you propose you eliminate an opponent that has a sword in your face? Swap weapons and walk away? Good luck :)

@eastthread51441
I see now, you are correct on this post you made. I’m on mobile and responses are coming in quick so I misinterpreted them.

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Then I disagree with them because it does not allow for any mobility and will be a more clunky system than we even have now.

@eastthread51441
To not derail the point, perhaps watch 0:17 and explain how this is a fair scenario.

@bleu-solo said in Weapon switching still isn't fair - Here's why:

@eastthread51441
I see now, you are correct on this post you made. I’m on mobile and responses are coming in quick so I misinterpreted them.

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Then I disagree with them because it does not allow for any mobility and will be a more clunky system than we even have now.

This update would fully maintain your mobility, it would just require that you commit to your mobility.
You could still sprint all the same unhindered, by doing precisely that. Choosing to sprint, instead of something else.
Convert "swap weapon and sprint" to "swap weapon or sprint".

Whether by taking animation cancels out of the equation like I said or accepting fully making them cancels, never bypasses, like East said, either way the baseline point that leads to the design choices is "accept that animations must be completed, not skipped, and play accordingly" and instantly removing all drama about people trying to gain advantage by skipping animations.

Whether people are prevented from interrupting their weapon swap by sprinting, or sprinting resets the swap animation, the player who cancels the animation by sprinting should require more time to be able to shoot.
The requirement for being able to shoot shouldn't be an amount of time passing. It should be that you finish readying the gun.

@eastthread51441
Which video did you watch?

Without sprinting 1:23
With sprinting 1:26

And the differences come down to human error anyway. You can easily attempt the same repeated actions and get variations of about 100 ms.

If there is an advantage to shooting faster from sprinting definitely remove it! I’m not asking to be able to shoot faster.

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Why would you want to sprint for half a second? Perhaps the enemy rounded a corner and you need a small sprint, or you need to sprint jump up on a ledge to see your enemy who is currently out of sight. Perhaps you are running away from a sword. Perhaps there is a lit keg nearby and you want to create some distance. There are dozens of reasons you’d want to sprint which don’t involve wanting to exploit and shoot faster.

I just want everyone to shoot the same speed 😂 but it seems like you are both for and against that idea.. it’s because the current system is so complicated and now you can understand why so many players find it clunky- it just doesn’t make logical sense.

@eastthread51441
I apologize for the confusing example- yes this is a very short sprint only meant as an example to show the behavior of the weapons. Yes you’re right that this short of a sprint has no real world application and was meant only to show that the full wield animation will delay the 2nd shot.

My proposed solution is not for it to skip the animation the 2nd time, but to begin playing, but as soon as that 2nd shot timer runs out it should allow to ADS. Because as you see in the 2nd example the player sprints for just under 1 second but still has the full wield animation, while a player that sprints just over 1 second can aim right away.

So if the player sprints for just under a second, it would begin playing the wield, but as soon as the shot timer has run out the player animation transitions to ADS - meaning that you will be able to match the speed of a player that ran for just over 1 second.

The intention is to match the speed of these actions so there is no advantage or disadvantage. Because both players sprinted- one sprints longer and can shoot first, one sprints shorter and can only shoot a second later. I hope this helps explain the flaw that there is currently