Anti Cheat coming at last!

It'll be interesting to see how the community will react when there is still some cheating in SoT. How will the narratives shift? It'll be an interesting thing to observe.

I'm ready to pop corn if it starts popping mains of long time players.

@theblackbellamy said in Anti Cheat coming at last!:

@wolfmanbush said:

I'm ready to pop corn if it starts popping mains of long time players.

Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night; and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.

-Sun Tzu, Art of War, Ch. 7: Maneuvering

Am I happy that we're getting finally getting anti-cheat? Yes.
Do I think it was incredibly unwise to announce it in advance? Yes.

It should have dropped in an unexpected update. The pop corn would've tasted better.

I tend to go heavy on the benefit of the doubt and the optimism until there just isn't wiggle room left.

My hope is that there is already a lot of behind the scenes stuff happening right now on servers, already gathering data, perhaps some monitoring that already will help them when this goes officially live.

I think there are two parts to it, them trying to deescalate on the marketing/community side while still keeping a lot of the inner workings confidential.

Some are gonna get away with it, cheating will still be seen, it'll still be a contentious topic but I think they are serious about it.

As we can already see in the thread though, it'll still be a tough thing for them to navigate through on the narrative side of things.

Personally I'm def not on board with how they have been dealing with pve cheesing/cheating so far so I'm likely being overly optimistic but that's alright.

@softwarengineer said in Anti Cheat coming at last!:

Yeah that's a hard no and an uninstall on PC.

Kernel level access is not a joke.

I’m sure there are legit reasons to be concerned about that level of observing what’s happening on your PC, but my PC is just for games, and I gladly consent to them seeing everything I do if it means mitigating the impact of insecure little frauds mucking up the seas.

@softwarengineer said in Anti Cheat coming at last!:

@capt-greldik
It's not a level of access, it's 100% unrestricted access to EVERYTHING.

Access to every single process on the PC with ability to mutate or terminate it.

The way dude joked about it in the video is the biggest red flag I think I have EVER encountered in the software realm.

Well, it sounds like you’re in career that gives you a heightened sense of concern, and that’s probably understandable. I’ve been using computers a long time and navigate them well, but that’s where my expertise ends. From my perspective, I couldn’t care less what they see on my PC as long as they’re doing me a service. I imagine it’s the same for most of us.

I’d let them come into my house and take pictures of my computer room if it meant less cheaters in SoT.

@burnbacon said in Anti Cheat coming at last!:

@tesiccl

To me, "Anti cheat" of any type is the same thing. It will be either 1) It works 2) It doesn't

Nothing changes as someone above already said, once more cheats continue to happen...what then?

Anti cheats are meant to mitigate cheating. I don’t think I’ve seen anyone claim that an anti cheat, once implemented, solves all cheating permanently. Just like irl, we have laws and a means to enforce them. Well, the TOS already exist, and the enforcement hasn’t been going very well, now they have an additional tool to help enforce the TOS. It can only be a good thing…

Anti cheats are always involved in an ongoing battle. Cheaters evolve, so does the anti-cheat.

Frankly, since I began reading these forums about a year ago for the sole purpose of seeing how the rampant cheating of season 9 was being addressed, I was pretty surprised and disappointed by the amount of… is it copium that I saw going on then? Cheaters were flying around dropping kegs, teleporting, and everything else imaginable, but on the forums there were/are a handful of people trying to downplay the reality of the situation. I’m not saying that’s you, just a rant attached to my response to your post.

I literally just finished watching a video by massive sponge that consisted solely of killing cheaters in season 11. Insta ladder, aimbot, and teleporting were the most common. I’ve also seen all of those and more in season 11, and yes I’ve reported the obvious ones and got confirmation of some of their bans.

Down with the copium, guys. The cheats are here and they’re obvious, and cheaters are already getting banned for them without an anti-cheat. Now an anti cheat is on the way and that is… good

I can’t speak on the invasiveness of a “kernel” anticheat, but hopefully whatever issues that could cause are minimal.

@sweetsandman said in Anti Cheat coming at last!:

I love that they reference Apex and Fortnite in there....2 games that have no shortage of cheaters.

I mean it's great and I applaud them taking a big step forward. I'm elated.

What I'm not excited for is the people whining incessantly because they don't understand that the presence of an anti-cheat DOES NOT mean there will be no cheaters.

Some are just inexperienced in gaming so at least the view is understandable if the reaction isn't reasonable.

A lot of people in SoT know darn well that this is an issue that is widespread in gaming so the expectations have long been unreasonable imo, which then turned into a lot of engagement farming at the expense of the rest of the community that just wants to vibe, not enter into the outrage cycle every time they try to just click around on SoT related stuff.

Genuine frustration that turned into a disingenuous culture of criticism that was far more than just about cheating, it's long been people carrying on the same fighting they do on all the other topics that they fight over in social media, just always thinly veiled as this or that. Clique fighting with each other and for/against Rare.

Rare was never going to win on this one but it shows how committed they are to being seen as a company that caters to feedback, even though it often brings in more trouble than it's probably worth they keep trying to serve even the most critical, sometimes.

@sweetsandman said in Anti Cheat coming at last!:

@wolfmanbush oh 100%. Rare cares and people of all experience levels (including some SOT partners) have been screaming the game needs (a better) anti-cheat for a while and blaming Rare for some reason.

Once it's implemented, I am curious to see what the reactions of those folks are when they inevitably come across a cheater.

I'm also still fully anticipating being called a cheater (as I have been numerous times) for simply being good (not great) 😂

That's why it's long been an unfair criticism when people act like partners are controlled by Rare, nah, a significant amount of criticism (fair and unfair) is being created in those communities and has been for a long time.

Some may volunteer to be generous in feedback but they for sure aren't being controlled in that sort of way.

I’m confused by the back & forth here. An anti-cheat is being implemented in a game that has a cheating problem. Does anyone here deny that SoT has a cheating problem?

Your concerns are that “some people might be surprised when there are still cheats”? Who are these people? I’m not aware of anyone who thinks that implementing an anti-cheat equals no cheats ever again, are you?

What is the alternative, not addressing the cheating problem; or do you dislike how the cheating problem is being addressed; or are you somehow unaware that there is a cheating problem?

Super confused by the discussion here. Shouldn’t we all be happy that an anti-cheat is being implemented?

@capt-greldik said in Anti Cheat coming at last!:

I’m confused by the back & forth here. An anti-cheat is being implemented in a game that has a cheating problem. Does anyone here deny that SoT has a cheating problem?

Your concerns are that “some people might be surprised when there are still cheats”? Who are these people? I’m not aware of anyone who thinks that implementing an anti-cheat equals no cheats ever again, are you?

What is the alternative, not addressing the cheating problem; or do you dislike how the cheating problem is being addressed; or are you somehow unaware that there is a cheating problem?

Super confused by the discussion here. Shouldn’t we all be happy that an anti-cheat is being implemented?

This is just a smaller version of what's already going around the social areas, from youtube comments, twitter responses, other feedback areas.

People outside the social areas aren't as concerned about it either way but the reality is Rare faces a social media heavy game. "Not enough" "Not effective" "Too invasive" were always going to be a lot of the response to this.

Cheating is a narrative battle for marketing as much as it is a security battle for devs. This is a discussion about that ongoing struggle.

A real concern for me is that Pve cheating/exploiting is so extreme and out in the open that it'll bring down confidence in regards to pvp focused cheating. It's tough to have a situation where so much is sliding in pve while putting on a stronger push against the pvp side. Fair play includes both.

@wolfmanbush

When you say “narrative battle for marketing”, do you mean that Rare wants to control the narrative for damage control? A gaming company would want their image to be positive, so trying to keep the cheating problem discussion at a minimum would make sense from a marketing standpoint? Is that what you meant?

Do you believe that there is currently a cheating problem in SoT?

I didn’t see the last part of your post before writing the last question above. Not sure if you edited or I just missed it, but I think your last bit answers my question.

I believe the anti cheat should at least attempt to address all cheats, to include both pve and pvp, wouldn’t it?

@tesiccl said in Anti Cheat coming at last!:

@wolfmanbush I’m not sure if you’re being insincere or not but anti cheat will address both PvE and PvP elements.

and are you sincerely suggesting that they in any way have been clear on pve related issues?

As someone that has been here years trying to encourage people to not fall into the exploit traps of Pve that may one day get them in trouble I can assure you that people are very misinformed and uniformed about what is and isn't a risk.

If/when the day comes that they decide to enforce it will be after a long amount of time of insufficient communication and messaging.

Many do it because they don't know any better and because they have been reassured by others in the community that are giving them poor advice. On the forums, on other platforms.

If people do get banned some of them sure as heck were given poor guidance and communication along the way. There won't be any accountability for that poor guidance.

People shouldn't be lead astray and left to wander only to be punished by design.

Clear lines, clear communication, encouragement and leadership, and then accountability if people decide to cause issues.

@wolfmanbush said in Anti Cheat coming at last!:

@tesiccl said in Anti Cheat coming at last!:

@wolfmanbush I’m not sure if you’re being insincere or not but anti cheat will address both PvE and PvP elements.

and are you sincerely suggesting that they in any way have been clear on pve related issues?

As someone that has been here years trying to encourage people to not fall into the exploit traps of Pve that may one day get them in trouble I can assure you that people are very misinformed and uniformed about what is and isn't a risk.

If/when the day comes that they decide to enforce it will be after a long amount of time of insufficient communication and messaging.

Many do it because they don't know any better and because they have been reassured by others in the community that are giving them poor advice. On the forums, on other platforms.

If people do get banned some of them sure as heck were given poor guidance and communication along the way. There won't be any accountability for that poor guidance.

People shouldn't be lead astray and left to wander only to be punished by design.

Clear lines, clear communication, encouragement and leadership, and then accountability if people decide to cause issues.

So perhaps Rare could do a better job of informing players of exploits and remind players not to use them. I wonder if one reason they aren’t doing that (that I’m aware of) is to keep the knowledge of the exploits existence at a minimum in an effort to mitigate the exploiting. Sounds tricky, but I think I get your meaning. For example, I have a video (which I submitted to Rare) of a player who duped wraith balls trying to explain to me on the ferry how “it’s okay to do that, and it’s real easy all I have to do is watch a YouTube video”. And yes, he had barrels with stacks of 99 wraith balls, there wasn’t any question about whether they got them legitimately. Perhaps that person genuinely thought it was okay to dupe? That’s an extreme example, anyone who thinks that duping is okay in any game is lacking in the common sense department, but there are a lot of other pve related exploits out there which are less black & white, I’m sure.

@capt-greldik said in Anti Cheat coming at last!:

@wolfmanbush said in Anti Cheat coming at last!:

@tesiccl said in Anti Cheat coming at last!:

@wolfmanbush I’m not sure if you’re being insincere or not but anti cheat will address both PvE and PvP elements.

and are you sincerely suggesting that they in any way have been clear on pve related issues?

As someone that has been here years trying to encourage people to not fall into the exploit traps of Pve that may one day get them in trouble I can assure you that people are very misinformed and uniformed about what is and isn't a risk.

If/when the day comes that they decide to enforce it will be after a long amount of time of insufficient communication and messaging.

Many do it because they don't know any better and because they have been reassured by others in the community that are giving them poor advice. On the forums, on other platforms.

If people do get banned some of them sure as heck were given poor guidance and communication along the way. There won't be any accountability for that poor guidance.

People shouldn't be lead astray and left to wander only to be punished by design.

Clear lines, clear communication, encouragement and leadership, and then accountability if people decide to cause issues.

So perhaps Rare could do a better job of informing players of exploits and remind players not to use them. I wonder if one reason they aren’t doing that (that I’m aware of) is to keep the knowledge of the exploits existence at a minimum in an effort to mitigate the exploiting. Sounds tricky, but I think I get your meaning.

We can do better as a community. Players and Rare, including me.

People often start this game with no prior experience, they have no idea what is going on, how things are, anything about online gaming. They always hear "tools not rules" they are sent to streamers for rewards, they get mixed messaging on the platforms.

They get all this inconsistent chaotic messaging, they inherit bad habits, they rarely know what way is up or down and that creates their foundation of participation.

It's alright to stay out of it, people have their freedom to participate or not, it's never alright to contribute to people getting set up to fail just because they are inexperienced and not being given the resources they need to look out for themselves, imo.

Community, a word thrown around a lot. Looking out for people is absolutely necessary for that word to have substance.

@wolfmanbush said in Anti Cheat coming at last!:

@capt-greldik said in Anti Cheat coming at last!:

@wolfmanbush said in Anti Cheat coming at last!:

@tesiccl said in Anti Cheat coming at last!:

@wolfmanbush I’m not sure if you’re being insincere or not but anti cheat will address both PvE and PvP elements.

and are you sincerely suggesting that they in any way have been clear on pve related issues?

As someone that has been here years trying to encourage people to not fall into the exploit traps of Pve that may one day get them in trouble I can assure you that people are very misinformed and uniformed about what is and isn't a risk.

If/when the day comes that they decide to enforce it will be after a long amount of time of insufficient communication and messaging.

Many do it because they don't know any better and because they have been reassured by others in the community that are giving them poor advice. On the forums, on other platforms.

If people do get banned some of them sure as heck were given poor guidance and communication along the way. There won't be any accountability for that poor guidance.

People shouldn't be lead astray and left to wander only to be punished by design.

Clear lines, clear communication, encouragement and leadership, and then accountability if people decide to cause issues.

So perhaps Rare could do a better job of informing players of exploits and remind players not to use them. I wonder if one reason they aren’t doing that (that I’m aware of) is to keep the knowledge of the exploits existence at a minimum in an effort to mitigate the exploiting. Sounds tricky, but I think I get your meaning.

We can do better as a community. Players and Rare, including me.

People often start this game with no prior experience, they have no idea what is going on, how things are, anything about online gaming. They always hear "tools not rules" they are sent to streamers for rewards, they get mixed messaging on the platforms.

They get all this inconsistent chaotic messaging, they inherit bad habits, they rarely know what way is up or down and that creates their foundation of participation.

It's alright to stay out of it, people have their freedom to participate or not, it's never alright to contribute to people getting set up to fail just because they are inexperienced and not being given the resources they need to look out for themselves, imo.

Community, a word thrown around a lot. Looking out for people is absolutely necessary for that word to have substance.

Well, I’m not an anti-cheat expert, so I don’t to what extent, if any, an anti-cheat would address exploits. I do know that people are getting banned for duping fish for millions of gold, though, and it appears to be automated now, based on some things I’ve heard, and that’s prior to this anti-cheat coming online. So maybe this won’t change anything for the “oops, I exploited on accident” crowd :)

@shifue-draven said in Anti Cheat coming at last!:

@capt-greldik TL:DR below if you like :)

Honestly anti cheat engines can't do anything about exploits as that is a problem in the games design/coding. Think of it like this. The sea fort issue over community weeekend is a great example of an exploit. They didn't cheat to get the loot just the coding allowed..

There is no ethical or ToS difference between what people were doing in extremes for athena loot (this season and in the past) and the duping that has gone on with fish/supplies (which supposedly has resulted in consequences for some).

It is cheating. Fair enforcement would be justified going off reasonable interpretation of the rules we agreed to.

I don't report people over this stuff, I've never been here or in the game to seek enforcement against people but it is cheating. It's irresponsible to dismiss some over the other. This stuff is a risk because at any time Rare can decide that they've had enough of something that makes their product look bad. It is a clear violation of fair play in an environment that includes pvp and pve.

There is nothing good at the end of the road where people are duping items along the way. That will catch up to people in one way or another. Either players will continue to cross the line or Rare will eventually draw it for them, with enforcement. It might not be in past seasons, it might not be this season, but the exploiting has become cheating and extreme.

Gold and commendations/cosmetics aren't worth where this is and where it's headed.

People rush everything so much with coordination that there is no glory to be found with doing it quickly anyway.

Do right by the environment and by other players and there is no risk of regret. People value their accounts and their access and their participation in the community, why risk that?