@ottyman8687 said in Red Sea loot should move to the edge of the Red Sea to deter Red Sea Running:
I physically cannot catch them.
I think that's your answer ;)
We can also 'encourage' chasers after 10mins to know that they can't physically catch them... and move on...
@scoobywrx555 said in Red Sea loot should move to the edge of the Red Sea to deter Red Sea Running:
@ottyman8687 said in Red Sea loot should move to the edge of the Red Sea to deter Red Sea Running:
I physically cannot catch them.I think that's your answer ;)
We can also 'encourage' chasers after 10mins to know that they can't physically catch them... and move on...
Fair enough. I don't have a comeback for that.
But in that case we have a new problem . If an encounter can be shut down by running for a bit, then PvP falls apart.
Take an Emissary flag for instance, you can now negate the entire risk by turning tail and running for 10 minutes.
@slarow said in Red Sea loot should move to the edge of the Red Sea to deter Red Sea Running:
The running crew doesn't gain anything more by red sea running vs scuttling. The only difference between the Red Sea and Scuttling is spite. The game provides a mechanism that forces a lose-lose, and promotes spite. The mechanism shouldn't exist.
Nah, I think it's a fair mechanism. It punishes the attacker for failing to catch their target before they run, and the target rushes to the border to admit defeat, and prevent their attacker from gaining benefit for targeting them at all.
This game having a nuclear option like that at least still keeps players engaged instead of always being run into a corner to either fight or die. This world isn't a boxing ring, it's a sandbox, with a playable area you can go out of, of course, with a penalty for doing so.
@ottyman8687 said in Red Sea loot should move to the edge of the Red Sea to deter Red Sea Running:
@realstyli said in Red Sea loot should move to the edge of the Red Sea to deter Red Sea Running
When the game has no skilled-based matchmaking and regularly pits crews of 3 or 4 against duos and solos, "spite" is sometimes the only win state. Is it ideal? No. But PvPers are not entitled to a fight or the loot off another crew without putting in some effort for it. Chasing them into the Red Sea, allowing them to get there, shows a real lack of experience.
You know, I think now I might be in favour of ship size servers. If I'm a galleon, I would quite like to fight other galleons. But when the only prey on the seas is Level 1 Gold Hoarder Sloops, I don't have much choice but to chase them.
Maybe make a sloop server and then just a "big ship" server.
Could solve a few problems. In the past people (and me) have argued against it. But I think it could be ok.
The only reason I would be against this is that a solo sloop is not balanced against a duo sloop. The game used to be a lot more balanced when it was just galleons and sloops, as there were clearer advantages and disadvantages. The brig seemed to upset that balance in a way by bridging the gap. I don't know what the answer is though to this.
On a separate note, the whole "get better at chasing" thing from everyone is nonsense.
If I'm chasing a ship who are going a maximum speed with someone at both ladders, I cannot "get better" I physically cannot catch them.
This is mainly the reason I abandon ship and do stealth plays or I pretend to be friendly to get close. Which I suppose are viable strategies
You've kind of proven the point, you've come up with better strategies than chasing a lost cause.
An example is Reaper runners, you know they are only going to go to one place to sell, so don't chase them. Instead, set up an ambush at the Reaper's Hideout.
Far too many impatient and inexperienced PvPers just go straight into chase mode, without considering better alternatives. Then they come here and complain it's not easy enough for them.
@ottyman8687 said in Red Sea loot should move to the edge of the Red Sea to deter Red Sea Running:
But in that case we have a new problem . If an encounter can be shut down by running for a bit, then PvP falls apart.
Take an Emissary flag for instance, you can now negate the entire risk by turning tail and running for 10 minutes.
PvP isn't falling apart, you're just not good at ambushing. If deer and rabbits can run away at the sight of a person with a rifle in their hands, it's because they're using a survival tactic to ensure they aren't rewarding their predator with, well... their lives. In Sea of Thieves, all you've got going for you is an attempt to steal something from someone else, not through bloodthirsty combat, but through sneakily pinning the enemy down so they can't run away and you can get your 'free' and 'easy' reward from someone. Fail, and you're chasing them till they get away with what you're looking for, or they make a mistake.
@realstyli said in Red Sea loot should move to the edge of the Red Sea to deter Red Sea Running:
@ottyman8687 said in Red Sea loot should move to the edge of the Red Sea to deter Red Sea Running:
@realstyli said in Red Sea loot should move to the edge of the Red Sea to deter Red Sea Running
When the game has no skilled-based matchmaking and regularly pits crews of 3 or 4 against duos and solos, "spite" is sometimes the only win state. Is it ideal? No. But PvPers are not entitled to a fight or the loot off another crew without putting in some effort for it. Chasing them into the Red Sea, allowing them to get there, shows a real lack of experience.
You know, I think now I might be in favour of ship size servers. If I'm a galleon, I would quite like to fight other galleons. But when the only prey on the seas is Level 1 Gold Hoarder Sloops, I don't have much choice but to chase them.
Maybe make a sloop server and then just a "big ship" server.
Could solve a few problems. In the past people (and me) have argued against it. But I think it could be ok.
The only reason I would be against this is that a solo sloop is not balanced against a duo sloop. The game used to be a lot more balanced when it was just galleons and sloops, as there were clearer advantages and disadvantages. The brig seemed to upset that balance in a way by bridging the gap. I don't know what the answer is though to this.
On a separate note, the whole "get better at chasing" thing from everyone is nonsense.
If I'm chasing a ship who are going a maximum speed with someone at both ladders, I cannot "get better" I physically cannot catch them.
This is mainly the reason I abandon ship and do stealth plays or I pretend to be friendly to get close. Which I suppose are viable strategies
You've kind of proven the point, you've come up with better strategies than chasing a lost cause.
An example is Reaper runners, you know they are only going to go to one place to sell, so don't chase them. Instead, set up an ambush at the Reaper's Hideout.
I admit it is quite fun hiding kegs all over the place.
Far too many impatient and inexperienced PvPers just go straight into chase mode, without considering better alternatives. Then they come here and complain it's not easy enough for them.
I think the problem is a desire for the cinematic naval fights. For me at least.
When two ships are spinning around in a circle trading Cannonballs, fire and everything it's a lot more fun than rolling up and obliterating people.
I'm one of the people who dislikes blunderbombs and chainshots since I feel they have made PvP a bit rubbish.
It's why I have resorted to tucking and mind-games. It's a lot more engaging than complete destruction. But it still isn't as exciting as a big 3-way fight for an Athena chest or something.
Had a skeleton galleon chase into the red sea while we where being hunted by a L5 Reaper Galleon.
The skelly galleon sank as we already had it on its last leg so we turned around and got the loot.
The L5 Reaper watched us recover the loot and shot out a pirate to swim to us. We turned North and left with all the loot as the player just reached sniper range. They then charged into the red sea to begin the chase but then sunk as we thought they had the shroud on. We didnt find any loot or their L5 emissary…its working just fine.
Got attacked yesterday by a duo after stacking two Athena emissary quests and completing them. Two Athena kegs onboard and all. You know what happened since I was solo? RED SEA
Juked them multiple times as I drive-by sold the lot. Boarded them once and was gonna sink them after wiping them but realized they had no firebombs and I forgot to bring any. Chainshot their own mast and when I merm’d back to turn my ship around and engage, they repaired and ran.
Red Sea really needs to do some just shy of scuttling damage. The despawn wall is a crutch. One that honestly makes the games lore laughable in its current state. The shroud? More like the feather duster. Also to everyone that claims it’s the only option, I challenge you to also attempt the shores of gold, drive-by selling, or rowboat sell plays. Just try it once, and I bet you would never consider Red Sea again.
@pickelking101 said in Red Sea loot should move to the edge of the Red Sea to deter Red Sea Running:
Tools not rules Using the Red Sea is a tool, it’s a way for unskilled guys to beat the unfair advantages of pc double guning sweats,
Tools can be broken and can incentivize the wrong things. For example, if from the beginning scuttling caused all of your loot to disappear, would you be ok with that? As soon as you realize you are bested, you can scuttle to prevent the other crew from getting your loot? Or would you think that was a broken mechanic that needed to be fixed? This is similar.
@pickelking101 said in Red Sea loot should move to the edge of the Red Sea to deter Red Sea Running:
you should see how salty they get haha!
Yeah you are kind of proving my point, it is about spite, which is not something the game should be encouraging.
@slarow sure it does. its not their loot. they didnt sink the boat. they got out played. so you are basically saying you want free loot if a boat scuttles…are you serious?
Only reason being spite? Not true.
Sure, there are people and crews that can solo or duo a 4-man galleon, but this is far from the majority of the player base. I would argue that more people would feel out-numbered, out-gunned, and/or out-manned by such an encounter when solo/duo'ing on a sloop. This is simply a gameplay limitaton that most people will find hard overcome. To be left with this conclusion is hardly a nice experience, and if they choose to take their loot somewhere where they no longer have access to it then they should be allowed to do so - they dug it up and placed it on their ship, so they have that freedom of choice. The reason behind it is lack of any other option, the nuclear method. To view it as spiteful is the very thing some crews choose to see it as to then verify their next actions as justified - being to go after that same crew again, sometimes repeatedly - which is borderline harassment and hardly in the spirit of the game. If a crew is willing to red-sea their loot, then you should realise they don't want to engage. Personally, if I see this behaviour, I don't follow.
Not everyone has enough interest, let alone time, to invest heavily in becoming better at PvP - be that because of time constraints / wanting to do things other than play this game. I do agree that a skill-based / similar-sized / time-played matchmaking system would provide better encounters than currently, but this would take a lot of work to perfect for the former suggestion. The game shouldn't force anyone to feel like a huge portion of the game isn't playable without a larger crew, which I fear the recent wave of PvP'ers seem to be causing when casual players just want to come chill and fish. A specific example, but a valid one among others.
Again though, nobody should force anyone else to play how they don't want to. I feel like this is becoming more and more of an issue with recent personal experiences of toxic crews who follow you for hours just for PvP's sake because "that's all this game's about" or because "it's a pirate's game". I fear for the future of this game with those kind of mindsets souring new players' experiences who for all I know could put the game down the same day they begin their pirate adventures because of it.
Again though, love you all, see you on the seas 🌊
@pickelking101 said in Red Sea loot should move to the edge of the Red Sea to deter Red Sea Running:
Tools not rules Using the Red Sea is a tool, it’s a way for unskilled guys to beat the unfair advantages of pc double guning sweats, you should see how salty they get haha!
There's literally Xbox servers, if its such a disadvantage being on console just turn off crossplay...?
@bruvhandles said in Red Sea loot should move to the edge of the Red Sea to deter Red Sea Running:
I run to Red Sea everytime I get chased it’s fun to me, sometimes I get caught and sometimes I don’t it sounds like you need to just practice at chasing or sneaking up on people? Tools not rules after all.
Ah yes, practice sneaking up on players when you can see ships multiple squares away, and rowboats at least within one square, so if the player you're """sneaking up on""" has ANY form of awareness and knowledge of how to effectively run, I guess it was my fault for being trash at the game...?
I can only speak for myself, but 9 times out of 10 the person giving chase is experienced enough to have a Shores of Gold checkpoint to hand. Not to say I don't still try it, but I would have recommended this option more a year or so ago than I would these days. Of all options available though, this isn't the most obvious without doing research or having an epiphany.
I have had luck with rowboat-selling plays, however, but sometimes even getting a rowboat is a largely time-consuming process that I wish they would just bypass by letting me buy one at an outpost. The rowboat tactic is best with duo crews though, unless you like risking an unmanned ship that's being chased. This is all assuming they don't expect this or suddenly notice a lack of rowboat on the back of your ship, which at least half the time they do.
As for drive-bys, tuckers are everywhere, and I think I've had more PvP trying to sell loot on an outpost than I've had at sea over the past year. Drive-bys just encourage someone to cannon off and wait, we don't need this being more encouraged than it already is.
Try and see what works for you is the best advice I guess. But honestly, a lack of rowboat and/or wind coming from the direction of the Shores of Gold or an outpost lead to little option but the red sea for a sloop.
@thornbush42 well I can only speak for myself. Despite getting sunk every once in awhile, they almost never get loot from me. Drive-bys have worked 100% for me over the last 4 years and sometimes just starting to do them makes others give up after a couple passes. There is such a small group of folks that are decent with naval in this game it’s hilarious. Most super aggressive folks either have a ton of time in the game and handle their ship well or come from FPS games and are only good fighting on their feet. It’s always gonna be random and that’s what is great with this game.
@gallerine5582 I’d never call anyone trash or their play style in an open sandbox game trash since there are no rules. I hate PvP and exclusively run from it. I Red Sea the smallest amount of loot for fun, being spiteful is my pirate trait. I get snuck up on. I get out maneuvered. I out run ships. You can’t always win. You can lure ships into feeling safe? Or something idk I hate pvp so my mind only thinks of ways to avoid it. You can’t however change how the game works because you’re unhappy with an aspect of it. Honestly I’ve thought the mods have said before this was a settled topic before tbh
@gallerine5582 said in Red Sea loot should move to the edge of the Red Sea to deter Red Sea Running:
@bruvhandles said in Red Sea loot should move to the edge of the Red Sea to deter Red Sea Running:
I run to Red Sea everytime I get chased it’s fun to me, sometimes I get caught and sometimes I don’t it sounds like you need to just practice at chasing or sneaking up on people? Tools not rules after all.
Ah yes, practice sneaking up on players when you can see ships multiple squares away, and rowboats at least within one square, so if the player you're """sneaking up on""" has ANY form of awareness and knowledge of how to effectively run, I guess it was my fault for being trash at the game...?
I'm glad someone finally gets it.
You can't just "get better" at catching ships. Because they see you from miles and just turn around and run.
It's impossible to sneak up on someone unless they are unobservant enough to not see me.
This is why people resort to camping and tucking, so you actually have a chance and don't end up in yet another chase
@ottyman8687 said in Red Sea loot should move to the edge of the Red Sea to deter Red Sea Running:
Or better still just link the map edges because why not. If you got East of Ruby's Fall you re-appear west of Mermaids Hideaway...?
Terrible idea I know, but it could be interesting
oooh, i'm really thinking that this could be a great idea! after all the world is round, yea?
I like it! you need to get Rare to look at this one Ottyman! and just think; no more red sea runners!
Just my thought, red sea running is a very "Pirate" thing to do.
Why? think about it. Why did Pirates bury their treasure?
To deny anyone else the treasure that they obtained. Pure and simple. Doesn't matter what happened to the crew that buried the treasure, what mattered is that the attacking crew did not get their hands on the loot. Isn't that what red sea running is? Denying loot to a chasing crew?
At least in my mind there's logic there somewhere.
@gipperseadog said in Red Sea loot should move to the edge of the Red Sea to deter Red Sea Running:
@ottyman8687 said in Red Sea loot should move to the edge of the Red Sea to deter Red Sea Running:
Or better still just link the map edges because why not. If you got East of Ruby's Fall you re-appear west of Mermaids Hideaway...?
Terrible idea I know, but it could be interesting
oooh, i'm really thinking that this could be a great idea! after all the world is round, yea?
I like it! you need to get Rare to look at this one Ottyman! and just think; no more red sea runners!
The only problem is the Shores of Gold.
South of Ashen Reaches will make me appear where..? Technically you could respawn north of Scorched Pass because the SoG is in the Shroud...but idk
It could also help with some of those irritating long journeys. No more sailing 1000 miles to cross the map, now I can just sail South of Ancient Spire for a quick route to the Wilds.
But then what about Forts and clouds in general...would I be able to see them out where the Red Sea once was...creating two clouds?
If they did put this in, they would definitely need to make it so that the Shroud moves you and that the edges aren't literally connected
@gipperseadog said in Red Sea loot should move to the edge of the Red Sea to deter Red Sea Running:
Just my thought, red sea running is a very "Pirate" thing to do.
Why? think about it. Why did Pirates bury their treasure?
To deny anyone else the treasure that they obtained. Pure and simple. Doesn't matter what happened to the crew that buried the treasure, what mattered is that the attacking crew did not get their hands on the loot. Isn't that what red sea running is? Denying loot to a chasing crew?
At least in my mind there's logic there somewhere.
The main issue is the Despawn Wall. If someone wants to make their loot harder to obtain then fine. But it's unfair that it can literally be deleted.
The Red Sea should be destructive, but right now it just tickles your ship until you hit the despawn wall.
The other issue is that this just seems the go-to "tactic". And the only defense it "get better at chasing" which IMO is ridiculous. Because it takes no skill to see someone, and drop sails and run. The only reason it is done is to spite people who want to sink them.
People shouldn't play this way, they should be fighting back or finding strategic ways to sell or hide their loot. Or even escape. Maybe using fog or the storm for example. Then people refuse to even try any of these and generally get washed up on the forums complaining about how unfair and unbalanced PvP is and telling PvPers how entitled they are to wanting the loot of a surrendered vessel
But yes, technically you could consider it pirate to delete your loot, it just really isn't that fun of a mechanic.
So I would like to link the edges of the world somehow.
That's the way I see it.
@ottyman8687 said in Red Sea loot should move to the edge of the Red Sea to deter Red Sea Running:
@gipperseadog said in Red Sea loot should move to the edge of the Red Sea to deter Red Sea Running:
@ottyman8687 said in Red Sea loot should move to the edge of the Red Sea to deter Red Sea Running:
Or better still just link the map edges because why not. If you got East of Ruby's Fall you re-appear west of Mermaids Hideaway...?
Terrible idea I know, but it could be interesting
oooh, i'm really thinking that this could be a great idea! after all the world is round, yea?
I like it! you need to get Rare to look at this one Ottyman! and just think; no more red sea runners!The only problem is the Shores of Gold.
South of Ashen Reaches will make me appear where..? Technically you could respawn north of Scorched Pass because the SoG is in the Shroud...but idk
It could also help with some of those irritating long journeys. No more sailing 1000 miles to cross the map, now I can just sail South of Ancient Spire for a quick route to the Wilds.
But then what about Forts and clouds in general...would I be able to see them out where the Red Sea once was...creating two clouds?
If they did put this in, they would definitely need to make it so that the Shroud moves you and that the edges aren't literally connected
Why not? sure is worth looking into if Rare could figure it out.
@gipperseadog said in Red Sea loot should move to the edge of the Red Sea to deter Red Sea Running:
@ottyman8687 said in Red Sea loot should move to the edge of the Red Sea to deter Red Sea Running:
@gipperseadog said in Red Sea loot should move to the edge of the Red Sea to deter Red Sea Running:
@ottyman8687 said in Red Sea loot should move to the edge of the Red Sea to deter Red Sea Running:
Or better still just link the map edges because why not. If you got East of Ruby's Fall you re-appear west of Mermaids Hideaway...?
Terrible idea I know, but it could be interesting
oooh, i'm really thinking that this could be a great idea! after all the world is round, yea?
I like it! you need to get Rare to look at this one Ottyman! and just think; no more red sea runners!The only problem is the Shores of Gold.
South of Ashen Reaches will make me appear where..? Technically you could respawn north of Scorched Pass because the SoG is in the Shroud...but idk
It could also help with some of those irritating long journeys. No more sailing 1000 miles to cross the map, now I can just sail South of Ancient Spire for a quick route to the Wilds.
But then what about Forts and clouds in general...would I be able to see them out where the Red Sea once was...creating two clouds?
If they did put this in, they would definitely need to make it so that the Shroud moves you and that the edges aren't literally connected
Why not? sure is worth looking into if Rare could figure it out.
Just have a one way shoud (coming out of the shores of gold) towards ashen reaches. that way the shroudbreaker TT stays intact, or modify the TT SOG? hmm...needs a little more figuring out, but i'm sure it's doable
@gipperseadog said in Red Sea loot should move to the edge of the Red Sea to deter Red Sea Running:
@gipperseadog said in Red Sea loot should move to the edge of the Red Sea to deter Red Sea Running:
@ottyman8687 said in Red Sea loot should move to the edge of the Red Sea to deter Red Sea Running:
@gipperseadog said in Red Sea loot should move to the edge of the Red Sea to deter Red Sea Running:
@ottyman8687 said in Red Sea loot should move to the edge of the Red Sea to deter Red Sea Running:
Or better still just link the map edges because why not. If you got East of Ruby's Fall you re-appear west of Mermaids Hideaway...?
Terrible idea I know, but it could be interesting
oooh, i'm really thinking that this could be a great idea! after all the world is round, yea?
I like it! you need to get Rare to look at this one Ottyman! and just think; no more red sea runners!The only problem is the Shores of Gold.
South of Ashen Reaches will make me appear where..? Technically you could respawn north of Scorched Pass because the SoG is in the Shroud...but idk
It could also help with some of those irritating long journeys. No more sailing 1000 miles to cross the map, now I can just sail South of Ancient Spire for a quick route to the Wilds.
But then what about Forts and clouds in general...would I be able to see them out where the Red Sea once was...creating two clouds?
If they did put this in, they would definitely need to make it so that the Shroud moves you and that the edges aren't literally connected
Why not? sure is worth looking into if Rare could figure it out.
Just have a one way shoud (coming out of the shores of gold) towards ashen reaches. that way the shroudbreaker TT stays intact, or modify the TT SOG? hmm...needs a little more figuring out, but i'm sure it's doable
I mean if they just said that the Shroud transports you it would work fine.
Sailing to the SoG without a TT active would just transfer you back to Ashen Reaches
If they literally made it so the East of the Map IS the West as well, then in theory, you should be able to see the North Side of Marauders Arch from Devils Ridge.
Then suppose a FoF spawns at Skull Keep...in theory you would see 5 skulls. Imagine standing at Skull Keep and looking in any direction, you would be able to see the skull cloud in all 4 directions.
So unless they literally make the map spherical shaped somehow, the only way to do it is to just say "the shroud transported you". Which tbh would be cool as well.
No thanks. If you couldn't catch the fleeing ship, you don't deserve the loot; plain and simple. We do not need to reward people for simply chasing. Life isn't always fair or forgiving, and neither is this game. Of all the other morally questionable things that players do in this game, red sea running is hardly the main issue.
@nex-stargaze said in Red Sea loot should move to the edge of the Red Sea to deter Red Sea Running:
We've been here before with this discussion, and while we keep hitting stalemates, a fair amount of people here don't think this is a good idea. If someone is out-sailing you, why should you be rewarded when they run out of viable options? No one is forced to fight in this game.
Then you keep trying to outrun them or scuttle ship. The treasure isn't yours, the gold is, but until you cash it in at an outpost, the treasure is NOT yours.Why should you deserve to deny others treasure that doesn't belong to you to begin with?
@lackbarwastaken said in Red Sea loot should move to the edge of the Red Sea to deter Red Sea Running:
@nex-stargaze "outsailing" equates to going into the wind. Its not some amazing outplay.
Not always, depends on the ship that you are on, what angle the wind is at, what obstacles are around you, and how you as a player chooses to distract or hinder the opponent in the chase.
