Possible ways to fix double gunning exploits

@sirsilentgamer said:

...since a player can quickly 2 tap a player from distance, which normally is okay, until those two shots come flying at you in almost the same second of the first shot being fired.

There is a 1 second delay between shots, that cannot be bypassed with the ADS exploit.

That's all it is. ADSing quicker. Not firing quicker.

Dodging shots at 1 second intervals isn't impossible, let alone when they are fired from a distance. Just don't run in a straight line or stand completely still, especially if they already hit you once.

So possibly making a 1 or 2 second delay for sprinting after firing a shot would solve this.

And make gameplay feel clunkier than it already is? No thanks.

A second way (Which I know will be hated) Is to make the ammo shared between guns, ei only having a total of 5 shots and not 10. Now I know this'll be a downside to both double gunners, both exploit users and normal users, but it'll mean that you won't be able to kill five people before needing to reload and only 2 1/2.

In the current state of hitreg, you're lucky if you can kill 2 with the 10 shots we have.

Restricting ammo to 5 shots doesn't create any balance, it just places limitations to double gunning & disincentivizes it. Automatically making it more appealing to carrying a sword instead.

Now a third and final way to fix this, would to make the weapon pull out animation forced no matter what you do, which it was for a little while, and then was quickly reversed a week later (probably due to double gunners complaining).

...and make gameplay feel clunkier than it already is lol.

@theblackbellamy Now I know that there is a small delay between shooting normally, and yes they have somewhat dealt with the exploit, but I myself have witnessed and tested these exploits to understand what is going on. And with the exploit you skip a good 1-3 seconds between shots, which is a lot in combat, since those few seconds make a difference between getting to safety or dying.

And there is a reason why I stated that only having 5 total bullets would be a hated thing, but you have to realize, double gunning was a accident, it was a bug during the alpha and beta that caused you to sometimes spawn with two guns. So it was never intended for you to have two guns, only a sword and sidearm.

And sure shooting would be a little more clunky, or at least you'd think it would be, because you normally have a cooldown after shooting anyway, but animation skipping obviously bypasses that.

@sirsilentgamer said:

...but I myself have witnessed and tested these exploits to understand what is going on. And with the exploit you skip a good 1-3 seconds between shots, which is a lot in combat, since those few seconds make a difference between getting to safety or dying.

I'd like to see some footage of this, please.

Surely you have some, or would be able to reproduce the skipping of a whole 1-3 seconds between shots, while the hard-coded delay is exactly 1 second.

I've offered a reward for such a feat in the forum before; perhaps you'll be the first one to take my money.

@theblackbellamy said in Possible ways to fix double gunning exploits:

@sirsilentgamer said:

...but I myself have witnessed and tested these exploits to understand what is going on. And with the exploit you skip a good 1-3 seconds between shots, which is a lot in combat, since those few seconds make a difference between getting to safety or dying.

I'd like to see some footage of this, please.

Surely you have some, or would be able to reproduce the skipping of a whole 1-3 seconds between shots, while the hard-coded delay is exactly 1 second.

I've offered a reward for such a feat in the forum before; perhaps you'll be the first one to take my money.

Well what I can say is you can eat between getting shot normally. You cannot do so between sprint cancel shots if they both connect. Dead without a chance and that is the largest advantage to this. That alone is a major need for it to be fixed.

Everyone defending this always says "you just aim faster, not shoot faster" and yet what is it that you have to do in either scenario? Aim then fire. Aiming faster=being able to fire faster than your opponent.

So never mind both of your solutions not making enough sense to work in order to nerf the play styles of players even I'm not a great big fan of, I think @TheBlackBellamy noted something interesting:

There is a 1 second delay between shots, that cannot be bypassed with the ADS exploit.

That's all it is. ADSing quicker. Not firing quicker.

So if logically you can't shoot for at least 1 second between both guns, that begs the question: Why is it that the time it takes to switch weapons, aim, and shoot the gun normally take much longer than 1 second, at least for preparation of an already loaded shot?

That's really questionable gameplay design that falls into the same amount of questioning Rare did to fix the bucket/shovel cancelling animation via spamming the stow button. If you're intended to shoot your both of your guns 1 second in between each other, why don't enough people know this and the maneuver required to pull this off? All I'm asking for is a little consistency cause they bothered to "fix" naval combat with us not exploiting our tools, so when are they gonna be bothered to "fix" close combat with us exploiting our weapons?

If you answer these questions with "skill gap" I'm using a Wearyball on you.

@theblackbellamy I myself can not fully reproduce or properly reproduce the glitch/exploit myself, nor do I wish to train my muscle memory to make it faster. But I do have a video that had been sent to me by a guy who was using the glitch himself to easily deck my friend faster than he could chomp on food

"How to Two Tap like the pros" it's a youtube link if you are wondering

ps. I don't care much for the possible money, I just care to remove this plague from my beloved game

@kommodoreyenser said:

Well what I can say is you can eat between getting shot normally. You cannot do so between sprint cancel shots if they both connect. Dead without a chance

Well what I can say is that it is entirely possible to eat in either case, if you're also moving.

Whether your opponent is quickswapping or not, they must hit both shots. And regardless of what they're doing, you can't afford to not strafe, jump and move out of the way.

Everyone defending this always says "you just aim faster, not shoot faster" and yet what is it that you have to do in either scenario? Aim then fire. Aiming faster=being able to fire faster than your opponent.

I can't speak for "everyone," but whenever I have made such a statement, it has always been in the context of "faster than" the 1 second delay.

I haven't denied that quickswapping gives an advantage. What I have denied are claims that the it breaks the delay, or that it allows for two shots within the same second/instance, as these are demonstrably false.

@sirsilentgamer said:

I myself can not fully reproduce or properly reproduce the glitch/exploit myself

Lol no, of course you can't. Though I knew this well before commenting to you.

And while the clip you sent me was a nice little tutorial, it contains absolutely no data to support your claim. Here is a video (not mine) that provides some actual numbers.

Again, ADSing quicker is an advantage. And ADSing quicker obviously means you would fire quicker than without quickswapping. But this does not mean that you can break the hard-coded delay, or fire two shots in the same second, or shave off "1-3 seconds" between shots.

@theblackbellamy right. I think the proper solution to the hot topic is to increase said hard delay to the exact time it takes for the animations to play out for the swap and ADS. Not an arbitrary 1 sec timer.

People can still quick swap if it makes them feel better, but you won’t be able to shoot any sooner than someone who isn’t.

Alternatively I’d take a nice macro exception for accessibility option.

Regardless of this very controversial topic, I feel that sometimes people are a bit eager to throw around the term exploit. That suggests that people who use it are doing something wrong/bannable, which is not the case here.

@wsurftvveeds But it is a exploitation of a issue that gives a double gunner a leg up on their opponent. It is a bug, yes, but I'd still say that this is a exploit due to how people are using it, getting a unfair advantage over others in pvp. Cause if I were to fight someone using this, and double gunning myself but not using the exploit, I'd be dead before I could fire the second shot. That's why I call it a exploit, or a exploited bug

@sirsilentgamer is it an unfair advantage if anyone can do it? Is it even a bug if sprinting was designed to stop animations? (and sprint cancel is currently treated the exact same way as x-bucket)

@wsurftvveeds It is a unfair advantage, because not all pc players can achieve this, and it takes far too much time and dedication to make it work right. And I highly doubt a Xbox player would be able to pull this off effectively, thus meaning it is a advantage over another player, especially against most if not all of Xbox players

@targasbr that's not really meant to be the point behind the combat in SoT. Everyone is supposed to be on an equal footing. A relatively new player, regardless of there skill at aiming is put at an disadvantage because they don't know about a small hidden bug/feature/exploit in the game. That's wrong. You shouldn't be able to fire any quicker than what the game animations allow without sprint cancel. And before anyone asks, yes I can do it.

Hopefully the talked about hitscan in the podcast will bring about a rebalance of all weapons to shake the meta's up abit.

@targasbr it's hardly an element of the game that I would say is widely shown on external tutorials. You can search it yes but someone won't know about it until they are constantly killed by said players performing these actions. Its a section of the game that is leaning towards the competitive gameplay and SoT should not be aimed towards a competitive playstyle. The only reason people defend it so much is because they know it's OP.

@targasbr I see you're point, I still think it's wrong how it currently is, that's including sword also. The sword should excel in indoor spaces. I'd prefer all weapons to do less damage along with food providing less health to lengthen the fights. This would however require hit reg to be sorted, block to actually function and swords to not have 5G range. Weapon damage nerf may also help with this spawn camping issue that's constantly brought up but is apparently unfixable and needs a banner to encourage us to scuttle.

@sirsilentgamer said in Possible ways to fix double gunning exploits:

@wsurftvveeds It is a unfair advantage, because not all pc players can achieve this, and it takes far too much time and dedication to make it work right. And I highly doubt a Xbox player would be able to pull this off effectively, thus meaning it is a advantage over another player, especially against most if not all of Xbox players

This is we’re you are so so so extremely wrong. Vast majority of pc players can do it and tons and tons of Xbox players can do it including myself. Firing a shot and then sprinting before shooting again is not difficult whatsoever for many.

@sirsilentgamer said in Possible ways to fix double gunning exploits:

@wsurftvveeds But it is a exploitation of a issue that gives a double gunner a leg up on their opponent. It is a bug, yes, but I'd still say that this is a exploit due to how people are using it, getting a unfair advantage over others in pvp. Cause if I were to fight someone using this, and double gunning myself but not using the exploit, I'd be dead before I could fire the second shot. That's why I call it a exploit, or a exploited bug

But it isn’t an exploit because it’s something that was intentionally added two years ago. Rare intentionally added the ability to bypass the ADS animation after coming out of a sprint specifically for heated combat moments. This brought back old double gun so rare went back and added a coded 1 second delay between shots to match the time of the wield animation. It has been tested and currently using the sprint cancel feature, it’s roughly 0.23 seconds faster. Essentially just aiming in faster just because the wield animation feels clunky. Adding a coded delay by the way is the same thing that was done to fix fast dig and fast bucket. You can still cancel the animation but there’s a delay that lasts as long as the animation. Same with guns, wield animation is as long as the delay between shots. If it really was a problem, Rare could easily increase the coded delay the fraction of a second that seems to upset some.

@theblackbellamy Yes that video had no data, but yours proves my point, yes I may have exaggerated numbers, but it is still faster do use these exploits to gain a advantage over others. That is my point I am trying to get across and many, hundreds, thousands of double gunner like to defend because they don't wish to lose their one advantage over others. But those .2 seconds of difference is enough to kill someone before they have a chance to grab cover or eat food

@illbushido305 I want to hear it from the mouth of the devs that they added this "feature" that makes gunplay more one sided because of it. and yes they added a hard coded delay for bucket and digging, but it isn't the same, cause you are able to bypass almost half of that hard coded delay. And the only animation I see that is intentionally skipped after sprinting into aiming is the pull up animation for the weapon, not the ads. The ads for pistol has always been fast, and the sniper always shows you bringing the scope to your eye. To be honest, it's tiring to hear double gunners and others alike defending something like this as if it were always intended. Rare is scared to lose their community by removing things like this. I had legit witnessed a update where the guns had a hard coded animation that prevented something like this, the week after it was gone.

@sirsilentgamer I’m telling you it is intended because it was literally listed in the patch notes as feature when it was added about three years ago. They added the ability the not have a wield animation when sprinting. Then refined it after with the second delay afterwards. Now mind you, I’m not a strictly, double gun player. I used the cutlass very often but use two guns in situations when it will perform better than a cutlass+gun load out. If it were in not release notes or mentioned by them, then it wouldn’t be official until told by them. In this case however it was done so 3 years ago when implemented. This is from around the time Rare did weekly dev updates and I believe they did explain the purpose. This is used to let’s say sprint towards an enemy and then exit the sprint and be able to fire immediately.

@illbushido305 first you say 2 years now you say 3, either way the point still stands here, it gives a advantage, and I myself have seen people (probably before a patch) being able to fire off those two shots faster than you can now. And the fact is that it is still faster than shooting normally. And I'd still much rather hear it first hand instead of second hand. I love this game, but I hate how they deal with the issues in it as of late. Especially when you are minding your own business and two shots from one person kill you faster than you can whip out your cutlass. This generally has either been someone who trains their muscle memory to pull this off to the best possible outcome, or a macro. I still should not be excused as a feature when it give a advantage all the same

@illbushido305 said in Possible ways to fix double gunning exploits:

Rare intentionally added the ability to bypass the ADS animation after coming out of a sprint specifically for heated combat moments. This brought back old double gun so rare went back and added a coded 1 second delay between shots to match the time of the wield animation. It has been tested and currently using the sprint cancel feature, it’s roughly 0.23 seconds faster. Essentially just aiming in faster just because the wield animation feels clunky.

Alright, now tell me who in the dev team said that their wielding animation feels clunky? Considering the last time we had animation cancel exploits, you'd think the DEVELOPERS would notice that some people are cancelling their animations on purpose for a slight edge in combat.

This statement just, doesn't rub me the right way, because I know half of you people doing it are trying your hardest to not point the finger at the dev team and call them out for their questionable design (here on the forums anyways), while not caring cause you can bypass it. If the concern comes down to the delay when switching and wielding weapons, then either they should change the speed in which you switch weapons (which it technically does if you switch weapons airborne for some reason), or they should just extend the delay.

No matter how you look at it, it's a combat oversight from the dev team and it should be respectfully called out for such.

@nex-stargaze I didn’t say Rare called it clunky. I said to me, the wield animation just feels a little clunky, so I use what they added to not have it. It creates a visually smoother transition. People bring up the argument that they don’t have time to attack witch it but it’s simply untrue. Plenty of times I’ve used the cutlass and done just fine against people with two guns. You just have to use all the mechanics given to your benefit like the block jump and understanding the cutlass hit combos. The stun lock from the cutlass is very powerful and is beneficial in majority of situations. Also, you’re talking about bypassing stuff. Nobody is bypassing anything because you can’t shoot any faster than the game allows you to. Now, you can bypass the wield animation but again, they added this…

@sirsilentgamer said in Possible ways to fix double gunning exploits:

@illbushido305 first you say 2 years now you say 3, either way the point still stands here, it gives a advantage, and I myself have seen people (probably before a patch) being able to fire off those two shots faster than you can now. And the fact is that it is still faster than shooting normally. And I'd still much rather hear it first hand instead of second hand. I love this game, but I hate how they deal with the issues in it as of late. Especially when you are minding your own business and two shots from one person kill you faster than you can whip out your cutlass. This generally has either been someone who trains their muscle memory to pull this off to the best possible outcome, or a macro. I still should not be excused as a feature when it give a advantage all the same

It was done when the Reapers Run of Shipwreck Bay was added which I believe was March of 2019. Either way the build number was 1.4.5 . I love the game just as much as others and to be honest, I don’t care if they increase the delay the extra 0.23 seconds to make you happy. If someone swaps weapon normally, you won’t notice the difference if the have good aim and both shots register. It’s more of a visual thing in my opinion but I’m simply stating the fact that it’s something they added and that I’ve had no problem countering with a cutlass.

@sirsilentgamer said in Possible ways to fix double gunning exploits:

@wsurftvveeds It is a unfair advantage, because not all pc players can achieve this, and it takes far too much time and dedication to make it work right. And I highly doubt a Xbox player would be able to pull this off effectively, thus meaning it is a advantage over another player, especially against most if not all of Xbox players

Taking time and dedication to get good at a skill is a plus in my eyes.

If you want to go to that level though, not all PC players and xbox users can aim well. Does that mean being able to aim/hit shots is an unfair advantage?