Why Blunderbuss makes PVP toxic

  • Soul Scratcher
    Ship Mate
    Insider
    Founder

    Ahoy fellow pirates!

    It’s been my pleasure to experience so many interesting additions with which I am so impressed! Including factions, Tall Tales, emissaries, etc. Since the beginning the cries over PVP ruining what some players believed was a “Sailing Simulator 2018” is one that has existed since the beginning of time.

    I believe without PVP, this game is dead and pointless.

    That being said, the Blunderbuss takes any possible intrigue in PVP and removes the skill and situations you must be ready for. With a blunderbuss, after the first kill, you just ensure you are paying attention to the enemy’s spawn. Stay close, pull trigger, done. One shot kill. It becomes a “who shoots first” challenge. Now this is still skill-you must aim and hit! But that is true of every other weapon.

    Compare that to a pistol, or eye of reach, or blunderbomb, firebomb, swords! You have to not just get a hit, you must be ready for what comes next, as your enemy will have time to respond. This is what keeps PVP fresh. It’s not Jeopardy! Where you are racing to press the button. It becomes more like chess. You have to prepare for possible moves, mitigate damage, and counter.

    PVP can be unpleasant. No doubt. But PVP as a skill to hone is very interesting once you understand it’s one of the two core game mechanics. When it becomes a game of trying to avoid a blunderbuss as you load in, praying to Athena that your loading time is fast so you can react or you’re sunk, there is no nuance.

    Please feel free to offer your opinions and discuss. But please, say more than just “Blunderbuss also takes skill.” My main argument is against a one shot kill weapon mostly - it just happens to take the form of a scattery-boy.

    My suggested fix: make it the weapon that does the most damage when close range, but not one hit kill. Allow possibility for skill to come into play.

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  • WolfManbush
    Champion

    blunder and sword are pretty much the only way to make this a shared environment while calling it balanced

    yeah people can get camped by the blunder but the blunder allows any random new player or casual to level out the playing field

    without the one shot blunder I wouldn't call close combat balanced

  • Soul Scratcher
    Ship Mate
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    Founder

    @wolfmanbush

    That’s an interesting thought. Blunderbuss does make it easy to at least land a hit if you are new. However, they also have several other options which they could learn to use. Some skill is required for most games so no one should expect to have a chance to win a fight without practice.

    I think Blunderbuss is good, but shouldn’t be one hit kill. It creates the spawn camping scenarios way more often than it gives new players the upper hand.

  • WolfManbush
    Champion

    @soul-scratcher said in Why Blunderbuss makes PVP toxic:

    @wolfmanbush

    That’s an interesting thought. Blunderbuss does make it easy to at least land a hit if you are new. However, they also have several other options which they could learn to use. Some skill is required for most games so no one should expect to have a chance to win a fight without practice.

    I think Blunderbuss is good, but shouldn’t be one hit kill. It creates the spawn camping scenarios way more often than it gives new players the upper hand.

    no point in even having a blunder if it's not one shot

    the skill gap is massive in this game and it's a slow learning process. During that time they need something to defend themselves.

    It's a shared environment, making sure the new players have a spot and a chance is very important otherwise nobody will want to continue so they can get better. A one shot option is absolutely necessary for a shared environment imo

  • Soul Scratcher
    Ship Mate
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    @wolfmanbush

    I see your point but there have to be other ways of closing the gap that don’t also get absolutely exploited by spawn campers.

    Could there be another way? For example: whatever weapon caused your death deals 80% of its’ damage for the first 5-10 seconds after spawn?

  • dlCHIEF58
    Champion
    Insider

    @soul-scratcher It is only a one shot kill weapon if you allow them to get close enough to use it that way. Smart players won't allow themselves to get into that situation. The "skill" comes in on when to use it in the appropriate situation (and avoiding those situations when they arise while being on the defensive end) as no weapon is good for all situations (though the pistol comes close).

    And no weapon makes PvP "toxic"...only players can do that themselves with their words and/or actions, not what weapon they chose to use.

  • WolfManbush
    Champion

    @soul-scratcher said in Why Blunderbuss makes PVP toxic:

    @wolfmanbush

    I see your point but there have to be other ways of closing the gap that don’t also get absolutely exploited by spawn campers.

    Could there be another way? For example: whatever weapon caused your death deals 80% of its’ damage for the first 5-10 seconds after spawn?

    Once we get to the point of being camped and not being able to get our ship back after a few tries it's pretty much established the other crew is more skilled. People don't like to admit that and they don't like to be camped but even in a camp scenario a person can get out of it if it's somewhat competitive even against blunders. It's a loss.

    Pretty much in my view it's more important that new and unskilled fighters have that chance to keep control of their vessel against much more experienced fighters than it is for us to have something some perceive as a fair chance during a camping situation

    Some of us have thousands and thousands of hours of combat experience and some have literally 0. Them having a chance is the priority and I think one shot blunders handle that pretty well

  • Soul Scratcher
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    @dlchief58 said in Why Blunderbuss makes PVP toxic:

    @soul-scratcher It is only a one shot kill weapon if you allow them to get close enough to use it that way. Smart players won't allow themselves to get into that situation. The "skill" comes in on when to use it in the appropriate situation (and avoiding those situations when they arise while being on the defensive end) as no weapon is good for all situations (though the pistol comes close).

    And no weapon makes PvP "toxic"...only players can do that themselves with their words and/or actions, not what weapon they chose to use.

    I partially agree with your last point. It truly can be a tool to close the skillgap as Wolf pointed out. However, it seems you missed my main point. If you get killed - which will happen - then how do you prevent two players from each sitting top sloop and bottom sloop with blunders and almost immediately killing you?

    Not looking for answers, I know spawning strategies but even knowing and practicing them, you’re at an enormous disadvantage. Then think it through like a new player. They’re already nervous and overwhelmed. They stand a less than zero chance in this scenario. No other weapon in the game gives this kind of crazy one sided advantage post-kill IMO.

  • Soul Scratcher
    Ship Mate
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    @wolfmanbush

    But you didn’t really address the new suggestion. Think of the new player as you said. They have no chance if they get surprised - which will be often. The biggest gap they have isn’t gun play - it’s situational awareness. They will 9/10 be surprised. One shot blunder is fine, but how do you prevent it from being a camp fest that makes new players not return?

    Because we know people experience that and don’t come back. It’s one thing to be losing the battle and accepting you may not get out. But with a spawn system that clearly differentiated SoT from a survival game (I.e Rust) having hope you can turn the tide is important. Doesn’t mean it won’t take skill to come back, but it would deter the behavior of players who do this - which as the other user pointed out here, is the real source of the issue.

  • WolfManbush
    Champion

    @soul-scratcher said in Why Blunderbuss makes PVP toxic:

    @wolfmanbush

    But you didn’t really address the new suggestion. Think of the new player as you said. They have no chance if they get surprised - which will be often. The biggest gap they have isn’t gun play - it’s situational awareness. They will 9/10 be surprised. One shot blunder is fine, but how do you prevent it from being a camp fest that makes new players not return?

    Because we know people experience that and don’t come back. It’s one thing to be losing the battle and accepting you may not get out. But with a spawn system that clearly differentiated SoT from a survival game (I.e Rust) having hope you can turn the tide is important. Doesn’t mean it won’t take skill to come back, but it would deter the behavior of players who do this - which as the other user pointed out here, is the real source of the issue.

    This ultimately is you wanting a change based on preference it's not really an overall imbalance or a problem that needs a fix imo.

    I think people that think the respawn/camp thing needs to be what they view as fair is flawed. The more skilled crew holds down the camp generally. Excuses don't really change that. A person/crew that can't get their ship back in 1-5 tries even with blunders either is never gonna get their ship back or isn't skilled enough to do anything even if they got it back on the 20th try

    I think people gotta realize that the emotions don't change the reality of the situation. They lost. They were outskilled and outplayed and now they are in an unrecoverable situation. It's just a flat out loss to more skilled crew.

    People's views on spawn camping are theirs to hold but the reality is that in that moment there is a clear winner and it's time to move on.

  • Soul Scratcher
    Ship Mate
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    @wolfmanbush

    I appreciate your take on this even though I disagree. You’re obviously experienced and I agree that making tons of changes doesn’t necessarily improve a game. That being said there are tons of well thought out posts about how manual PVP (non ship) has tons of other issues like hitreg, lag time differences, etc, and it truly can become a situation where the first person to board usually wins the battle outright.

    This is the current meta and I agree it’s not healthy. I know it and participate because it’s the best option (sans Blunderbuss), but the highlight of the game is truly the ship v ship combat. The boarding meta is frustrating and involves not just skill but systems that are known to be flawed. I truly wish I had other options.

    From that perspective I think the feedback from existing seasoned players makes me think some change and balancing is necessary for the longevity of the game.

    FFXIV’s director Naoki Yoshida said regarding the players that “The silent ones leave first.” There are truly cases of people venting their frustrations wanting changes based on “emotion” but when people who love the game are complaining, providing feedback and suggestions about the same thing repeatedly, there is a deeper issue that threatens the game.

    My ultimate thought was that spawn camping cannot be prevented, but it could be deterred. I arrived at the Blunderbuss as the main culprit. It’s not an emotional response. I win most fights out there, but it’s not much fun.

  • WolfManbush
    Champion

    @soul-scratcher said in Why Blunderbuss makes PVP toxic:

    @wolfmanbush

    I appreciate your take on this even though I disagree. You’re obviously experienced and I agree that making tons of changes doesn’t necessarily improve a game. That being said there are tons of well thought out posts about how manual PVP (non ship) has tons of other issues like hitreg, lag time differences, etc, and it truly can become a situation where the first person to board usually wins the battle outright.

    This is the current meta and I agree it’s not healthy. I know it and participate because it’s the best option (sans Blunderbuss), but the highlight of the game is truly the ship v ship combat. The boarding meta is frustrating and involves not just skill but systems that are known to be flawed. I truly wish I had other options.

    From that perspective I think the feedback from existing seasoned players makes me think some change and balancing is necessary for the longevity of the game.

    FFXIV’s director Naoki Yoshida said regarding the players that “The silent ones leave first.” There are truly cases of people venting their frustrations wanting changes based on “emotion” but when people who love the game are complaining, providing feedback and suggestions about the same thing repeatedly, there is a deeper issue that threatens the game.

    My ultimate thought was that spawn camping cannot be prevented, but it could be deterred. I arrived at the Blunderbuss as the main culprit. It’s not an emotional response. I win most fights out there, but it’s not much fun.

    Imo a lot of people view the game as "what can we change to bring the game to me" rather than "what can I do to adapt to the environment so that I can enjoy my sessions more often"

    I'm not big into pvp. I never have been. I don't really like SOT pvp at all. I like the risk I don't really enjoy the combat. I just adapt to the environment so I can play how I wanna play and create my own enjoyment

    People wanna fight everything they don't like rather than focusing on what they do and it prevents them from enjoying a game they could enjoy more often with some perception and gameplay tweaking

  • AvacadoBeard244
    Ship Mate
    Insider

    I'm gonna be honest, I didn't read any of that just because of how much there was but I just wanna say, I don't think they will be removing the blunderbuss anytime soon, it is annoying but its also helpful at times... now if we were removing blunderbusses from skeleton bosses then I would be up for a debate but seeing as we have come this far with everyone's favorite one shot weapon... I think its here to stay...

  • BurnBacon
    Vanguard
    Insider

    Once you mentioned "Skill"
    I stopped reading, as Ive come to understand when it comes to "skill" in this game can easily come down to

    • Luck
    • Poor Connection
    • Surprise
  • Soul Scratcher
    Ship Mate
    Insider
    Founder

    @burnbacon

    It can come down to those. Absolutely. But when the connection is good skill is a huge factor.

  • Soul Scratcher
    Ship Mate
    Insider
    Founder

    @avacadobeard244

    Fair enough. The TL;DR of my side is that they should not remove the weapon. They should however change it from a one shot. Argument was made that one shot weapons make the game more accessible and can help with a large skill gap. I agreed, and proposed then that whichever weapon was used to down you have a reduced dmg effect for a very short period after respawn, to discourage one shot spawn camping.

  • Dash Filbert
    Ship Mate
    Insider

    I think the ‘buss is ok how it is, my suggestion would be to lock the ammo crate to anyone not in the crew or allied with the crew. This would let the attackers camp for awhile but not indefinitely.

    Eventually the person(s) being camped will get a better chance to fight them off, which is an incentive to keep fighting instead of scuttling/quitting.

    It offers the possibility of eventually overpowering the attackers, something that is currently absent when outnumbered by boarders, who can heal, reload, and kill before the victim(s) can even pull out a weapon.

    I think this would lead to longer and more enjoyable shipboard battles.

  • CGallerine
    Commander
    Insider

    Low skill weapon doesn't equalize to "toxicity"

    I can only hope that one day the community will understand what toxicity actually means....

  • Joe Krakatoa
    Commander
    Insider

    Any change from where it is now will render the blunderbuss useless.
    Players would go back to using something else.

    When SoT launched, the firearms had different specs. I remember not many players using a blunderbuss, preferring the flintlock.

    After a time, Rare recalibrated the weapons into the roles they serve now, and for the blunderbuss the rest is history.
    This is when it became the dominant weapon for ship defense.

    Also worth noting is the blunderbuss as the easiest weapon commendation to start in the Arena.
    The implication being this weapon is your introduction to pirate killing.

  • Joe Krakatoa
    Commander
    Insider

    @soul-scratcher said in Why Blunderbuss makes PVP toxic:

    My ultimate thought was that spawn camping cannot be prevented, but it could be deterred. I arrived at the Blunderbuss as the main culprit.

    You prevent spawncamping by spotting your attackers on the horizon, approaching from miles away.

    If you find yourself spawncamped, you have already committed several critical mistakes, and scuttling your ship is now your best option.

    Don't blame your blunderbuss, it's just another tool.
    It is the pirate that makes it toxic.

  • Lem0n Curry
    Vanguard
    Insider

    If the issue is that it is very easy to spawn kill with a blunderbuss, but we still want to have a one-shot-kill weapon, perhaps give a respawning player 110% health that degrades in a couple of seconds to 100%.

  • SuperPopato
    Seafarer

    Time to kill is faster than ever now, and Blunderbuss is partly to blame.
    I just think Blunderbuss shouldn't be 100% damage if you land every pellet. being instantly killed isn't fun or interesting at any distance. if it maybe brought you to 90% but had bigger knockback you could at least have a chance to survive and possibly make a comeback instead of just being dead.

    it's really lame when you spend all that time in the ferry just to get less than 3 seconds of being alive again because they can just wait for you to spawn again and completely lock down your ship. like why even make respawning an option at that point.

  • RockAce26
    Marauder

    Personally I feel that if rare went through with your plan that I

    myself as an experienced pirate would not suffer any sort of

    difficulty but rather give me a plus side against less experienced

    players. This would be unfair and would essentially give more

    experienced players the high ground.

  • MEW Schnee
    Captain
    Insider

    Personally, I do not like one-shot weapons of any type. It helps me when I am solo, but it can also backfire and surely frustrates people because of the lucky shots you can get with them.
    Even people I watch online and know that they can fight fairly good are fearing the blunderbuss, because you cannot protect yourself from it. It is not like with the cutlass lunge where people can shoot you or hit you preventing you from doing major damage in one single hit.

    @cornelius-ix said in Why Blunderbuss makes PVP toxic:

    I think the ‘buss is ok how it is, my suggestion would be to lock the ammo crate to anyone not in the crew or allied with the crew. This would let the attackers camp for awhile but not indefinitely.

    Eventually the person(s) being camped will get a better chance to fight them off, which is an incentive to keep fighting instead of scuttling/quitting.

    It offers the possibility of eventually overpowering the attackers, something that is currently absent when outnumbered by boarders, who can heal, reload, and kill before the victim(s) can even pull out a weapon.

    I think this would lead to longer and more enjoyable shipboard battles.

    Oh, that also sounds interesting, I mean, I usually use the ammunition box myself on other ships, but that would increase the difficulty of spawn killing.

  • dlCHIEF58
    Champion
    Insider

    @leadvolley LOL, hardly. Only the last thing is actually toxic and that is a player action not a tool in game. There is absolutely nothing toxic about firebombing or blunderbombing a ship when they spawn in. Unfair (as in the players don't have full control of their character to react), yes but toxic no - people need to quit throwing that word around for every thing they don't like that is in fact not toxic as then the word loses all meaning. That is a problem that Rare has to still address to make the game more fair to all players, regardless of their system, but definitely does not fall under the "toxic" banner and no one would ever get banned for such actions.

  • RealStyli
    Vanguard
    Insider

    Without any form of skill-based matchmaking, "skill" should not be taken into consideration when balancing the game. I admire those who do manage to raise the skill ceiling, but it's a casual game for all skill levels and it's like being skillful at Mario Kart... impressive, yes, but I don't see Nintendo removing the Blue Shell anytime soon.

  • Lem0n Curry
    Vanguard
    Insider

    @leadvolley said in Why Blunderbuss makes PVP toxic:

    @dlchief58 Its one thing to do these things to yourself when solo slooping, or when in a crew doing it to enemy players but let me tell you, when you end up getting someone that joins your ship after completing a vault, or voyage hauling alot of treasure that took you alot of time to get, and you hear firebombs going off on the ship, there's is nothing more rage inducing than a crew member ruining all you've worked for, and if you haven't experienced it now, just wait, oh your gonna feel it when it happens to you.

    From your earlier posts it was not clear it was a crew mate that threw fireballs on your own ship. This kind of behaviour is griefing.

  • dlCHIEF58
    Champion
    Insider

    @leadvolley said in Why Blunderbuss makes PVP toxic:

    @dlchief58 Agree to disagree. I played with someone very recently that spawned in on our crew and said something along the lines of "come over to the ship" so when i went over and waved he started blunderbombing me. I dislike those types of people intensely.

    No, there is no "agree to disagree" here - it is simply not "toxic" behavior and no one can be banned for that. Unsporting, annoying and juvenile perhaps, but not toxic.

    Now doing so to your own crew I feel would fall under the definition of griefing however, which in your initial post you made no mention of so assumed you were talking about the game in general. I wouldn't call it "toxic" though (I refrain from using that word unless it absolutely falls under that umbrella, usually when language is involved or extreme actions like infinite spawn camping)...and it has nothing to do with the tools in the game they are using, but rather their actions which was the entire point of my initial post you responded to. That is why there is the brig on the ship to deal with such players (even though it is useless on the sloop unfortunately). Sabotaging your own crew like that is uncalled for and probably worth reporting for bad sportsmanship or being a disruptive player at the least.

  • dlCHIEF58
    Champion
    Insider

    @leadvolley Then you have a pretty low threshold for what you feel is "toxic"...and that is a lot of the problems here with people and their arbitrary definitions of the word for actions they don't like.

    I reserve it for the absolute worst behavior, not these childish antics. While I don't approve of these acts, I wouldn't lump them in with the worst of human behavior like bullying or harassing comments/messages...that is until they threw in those actions along with their juvenile behavior. I'd still report it, but only as I specified earlier unless it called for more serious attention like I noted above. Griefing yes, but not quite to toxic...yet.

  • SwimPlatypus7
    Marauder

    @soul-scratcher

    I do not use Blunderbus, and play EoR and sword, but I feel that the Blunderbuss being capable of 1 shot kills is a needed mechanism for “noobs” to have fun.

    May sound contrary to the “skill based meta” players and their pathetic arguments, but fact is hyper fast combat is to the benefit of the new player and the seasoned player.

    Slower meta are only to the advantage of the seasoned players and the mid level players who think they are good and like to accuse great played for hacking.

    Just my thoughts.

  • Soul Scratcher
    Ship Mate
    Insider
    Founder

    @swimplatypus7 said in Why Blunderbuss makes PVP toxic:

    @soul-scratcher

    I do not use Blunderbus, and play EoR and sword, but I feel that the Blunderbuss being capable of 1 shot kills is a needed mechanism for “noobs” to have fun.

    May sound contrary to the “skill based meta” players and their pathetic arguments, but fact is hyper fast combat is to the benefit of the new player and the seasoned player.

    Slower meta are only to the advantage of the seasoned players and the mid level players who think they are good and like to accuse great played for hacking.

    Just my thoughts.

    That is a fair point. More and more I’m convinced that you are right, and the answer isn’t a blanket nerf to the ‘buss but perhaps even a tiny damage reduction whenever hitting the same pirate respawning who just got one shot for a short duration could curve spawn killing. Thought?

  • Soul Scratcher
    Ship Mate
    Insider
    Founder

    @superpopato said in Why Blunderbuss makes PVP toxic:

    Time to kill is faster than ever now, and Blunderbuss is partly to blame.
    I just think Blunderbuss shouldn't be 100% damage if you land every pellet. being instantly killed isn't fun or interesting at any distance. if it maybe brought you to 90% but had bigger knockback you could at least have a chance to survive and possibly make a comeback instead of just being dead.

    it's really lame when you spend all that time in the ferry just to get less than 3 seconds of being alive again because they can just wait for you to spawn again and completely lock down your ship. like why even make respawning an option at that point.

    This is exactly my point. There are different skills to hone. The most important is awareness so you aren’t caught in this situation to begin with. That being said, one moment of distraction shouldn’t be able to cost you several hours of loot without a chance to counter.

    I love with this and play the game as is, but I know many who don’t even bother to fight after dying because breaking the loop is nearly impossible.

  • SwimPlatypus7
    Marauder

    @soul-scratcher

    Maybe change how respawn is done so that instead of a damage reduction the newly spawned player is not visible to his enemies for 5 sec after he respawns or attacks an enemy; whatever takes place first. This would give home ship advantage to the noob and the seasoned players alike.

    This way damage reduction mechanics don’t sneak into the game; those never seem to work out so well.

  • Soul Scratcher
    Ship Mate
    Insider
    Founder

    @swimplatypus7 said in Why Blunderbuss makes PVP toxic:

    @soul-scratcher

    Maybe change how respawn is done so that instead of a damage reduction the newly spawned player is not visible to his enemies for 5 sec after he respawns or attacks an enemy; whatever takes place first. This would give home ship advantage to the noob and the seasoned players alike.

    This way damage reduction mechanics don’t sneak into the game; those never seem to work out so well.

    That’s a creative idea, but 5 Seconds of invisibility is a huge advantage. With a small, timed damage reduction on that specific gun, the attacker can still win the fight if they’re very very skilled. Invisibility can guarantee that a downed pirate gets a free shot.And this is just a detail, but if the ship is on fire where you would spawn, it would immediately negate the benefit as well

  • Valor Omega
    Champion
    Insider

    @soul-scratcher I would argue that two guns is just as effective in quick killing not only new players, but veteran players as well. Two players camping a sloop with snipers or pistols and shooting a respawning player at the same or nearly the same time will result in near instant death as well.

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