The Reapers Rework!

I think there’s some genuinely interesting ideas in your post. You’ve definitely thought these through more than most. I see the logic behind each.
Maybe the smart people at Rare will be inspired by something.
I don’t think Reapers are broken. But there’s certainly room for improvement, refinement and the occasional shake up.

[Mod Edit]

You must be having awful luck. My experience with Reaper is wildly different. It's probably the most efficient money-maker in the game. I can't say I've ever done this "merchant of death" thing. My friend was top 200 Reaper last season and I've not heard this complaint once.

I'm not against the idea of a growing range regarding you seeing other emissaries, but it feels like this would make Reaper even worse, not better.

Server hopping could be cool, but that's currently an option with the new Tall Tales and it's free. It's also extremely powerful.

I'm not really in favour of the 3rd suggestion. It would make Reaper an extremely tedious and unrewarding task.

I think this post is very well thought up! Well done!

For the murder merchants, I have thought of these changes:

• Make it where you lose reputation for sinking ships/stealing loot while flying anything other than Reaper. If you want to steal loot and sink ships, run Reaper.
• Add some sort of cooldown where you cannot hot swap emissaries within seconds. Even if it goes as far as 30 minutes/1 hour.
• If you go around sinking ships as another emissary, your outpost trade bosses don't agree with your way of doing business and you are now marked as a Reaper. You will not be able to switch back during that session and will either fly reaper or nothing until you hop servers.

I love the reapers eye idea. I have always though that the light switch that gets flipped from no benefit to see the entire map was a bit underwhelming to OP real quick. I think a gradual circle would be a great fix for this.

As far as server hopping via the new tall tales, I think this needs to be simply removed and no option to do so even with a gold cost associated with it. If I remember correctly, if you enter one of these tall tales, your loot (except supplies/boxes) goes away. It should be the same with any flag, no matter what emissary you fly. Make the tall tales just that, tall tales.

I would love to see the extra gold you get tied to the Reaper's flag as well. it actually adds the risk and reward for reaching grade 5 or flying reapers in general. I think going one step further with it that when you want to turn it in, you are given a quest to go find a map/pieces in order to find an NPC (at either an island or an outpost) to turn the flag in to.

@mrgbd said in The Reapers Rework!:

• Make it where you lose reputation for sinking ships/stealing loot while flying anything other than Reaper. If you want to steal loot and sink ships, run Reaper.

Few problems here:

• Implementation - how will the game detect if you're acting in self-defence or you're the aggressor? This may just result in people being unable to defend themselves or being forced to flee whenever a Reaper approaches them.

• Even if Rare could somehow overcome this issue, it means that if you see any other emissary other than a Reaper, you probably don't need to worry, because they're not going to sink you and lose XP.

Add some sort of cooldown where you cannot hot swap emissaries within seconds. Even if it goes as far as 30 minutes/1 hour.

This would remove some strategies that people currently use regarding emissaries. It also means if you want to swap from Merchant to Gold Hoarder, you're now prevented for a while, and it will encourage server jumping. Getting loot is very easy now, so this wouldn't deter people.

If you go around sinking ships as another emissary, your outpost trade bosses don't agree with your way of doing business and you are now marked as a Reaper. You will not be able to switch back during that session and will either fly reaper or nothing until you hop servers.

Just have to refer to my previous comments. This would result in self-defence being broken and would encourage extremely boring gameplay, which would likely result in players solely doing PvE quests or events.

There's no inherent reason why playing Merchant in an aggressive manner, stealing Merchant loot from other players, should be punished. Especially when Rare has made it clear several times that the game is and always will be PvPvE.

@loaf-cat1384

I can understand all of that, but it would heavily rely on what Rare would be able to implement and actually work. There are games that have built in karma systems that are way older but in terms of the who shot first thing, it would depend on a system that says ship 1 shot ship 2, ship 2 cannot take any negative karma from shooting ship 1. This system has also been implemented in other games but those games have had it since day 1, so who knows if it is possible to be added way after the fact like this.

30 minutes/1 hour could be a bit extreme, but what if it was tied to the grade as well? For each grade you gained, that time decreased all the way down to few minutes? If you complete the grade 5 quest at the end, there would be no cooldown at all.

And your final one, it also (like you) refers to my first statements that heavily relies on a system being built for it. I think the system if done properly could work very well but I don't know how difficult it can be if it is even possible.

I am not trying to deter people from the PvPvE nature of the game. I for one am against the whole PvE only movement I have seen. My thoughts here are just ideas in order to actually make it worth picking the "right" emissary for what you are doing.

In regards to the original posters fix 2 for point 1 "reapers server hopping:"

@sshteeve said in The Reapers Rework!:

@tenriak I wouldn't like folks to use the comments of the forum to explain potential exploits matey.

You even tricked a mod into editing my post.

It is not an exploit. It is "legitimate use of the Tunnels of the Damned." As per the developer updates thread.

Which, in turn means reapers server hopping has already been implemented.

@mrgbd yeah, I get that you're not trying to discourage PvP, but my point is that these changes would very likely do so.

There are games that have built in karma systems that are way older but in terms of the who shot first thing, it would depend on a system that says ship 1 shot ship 2, ship 2 cannot take any negative karma from shooting ship 1. This system has also been implemented in other games but those games have had it since day 1, so who knows if it is possible to be added way after the fact like this.

Most games I know of with Karma systems have implemented it very poorly. They very rarely work, or if they do, they're extremely simplistic and can't account for various things. For example, if I accidentally bump into someone in RDR2 and they shoot at me, I then shoot them back, I lose Karma, despite them escalating the situation by pulling a gun on me.

The same thing can happen here. Take this example: I'm sailing, doing my own thing. I see a ship coming towards me. I feel that it's going to try and sink me, it has the Reaper flag after all. As such, I reposition and shoot the first shots, hoping to put an end to the coming attack. I manage to sink the ship. But, because I shot first, I now receive negative Karma/lose XP.

30 minutes/1 hour could be a bit extreme, but what if it was tied to the grade as well? For each grade you gained, that time decreased all the way down to few minutes? If you complete the grade 5 quest at the end, there would be no cooldown at all.

I mean, you could do this, but I'm not really sure what it resolves? I don't see the issue with being able to lower the flag and then raising it again.

@loaf-cat1384

The idea with some sort of cooldown was another change to the murder merchants. I honestly see them almost every server myself more than even Reapers because as OP stated, the current server hopping with the new Tall Tales makes every emissary quickly turn in and hop themselves so it seems like you are being pushed to do that if you want to get more PvP. But this seems like a more reasonable though would be to see what the devs intend to do with the server hopping "issue" itself.

But I do appreciate the discussion and insight. I knew my little ideas were not bullet proof but your conversation here has shown me that changes are not as obvious as they seem. I am not a game dev after all, and if I was, I would not be able to make a game as successful as this one for sure lol!

@mrgbd

The idea with some sort of cooldown was another change to the murder merchants.

I guess that makes sense. I'm just not that familiar with it being so common. It's the first I've even heard of it and I exclusively play Reaper :P

Does raising a new flag after you store loot onboard give you XP for that emissary? If yes, the solution is to make it so that doesn't happen. If no, I'm not really sure how this Murder Merchant strategy is even effective. If the method is to sink a ship, leave the loot in the sea, go get a new flag, return to the loot, then it seems like the loot would despawn by then (it only lasts 5 minutes in the sea).

@loaf-cat1384

From what I can tell, they do it just to sell the flags and they sell the loot to whoever with little to no emissary bonus. The whole thing doesn't make much sense to me. I guess in the spirit of the game (imo) it was meant that if you want PvP more than PvE, you run Reaper. I personally run Reaper more than any other emissary just because you sell everything to one place and the bump in gold is quite nice and I enjoy when another ship throws it all on the table for some epic naval combat. I just think that if running merchant/gold/souls in order to get people to not run away off the server almost immediately is the best way to get PvP, then there lies a potential problem with Reaper and something needs to draw people in to run the "correct" flag for your occasion.

@sshteeve how would a noise break immersion fof already does it?
The other idea i had was a passenger pigeon that lands on your boat with the bounty

@loaf-cat1384 said in The Reapers Rework!:

You must be having awful luck. My experience with Reaper is wildly different. It's probably the most efficient money-maker in the game. I can't say I've ever done this "merchant of death" thing. My friend was top 200 Reaper last season and I've not heard this complaint once.

I'm not against the idea of a growing range regarding you seeing other emissaries, but it feels like this would make Reaper even worse, not better.

Care to explain how?

Server hopping could be cool, but that's currently an option with the new Tall Tales and it's free. It's also extremely powerful.

What im proposing wouldn't be free and far less powerful 😉

I'm not really in favour of the 3rd suggestion. It would make Reaper an extremely tedious and unrewarding task.

The rewards wouldn't change at all.. just how much you're willing to gamble with them. U would receive all money connected to the flag when u lower.

@mrgbd

Make it where you lose reputation for sinking ships/stealing loot while flying anything other than Reaper. If you want to steal loot and sink ships, run Reaper.

Its a hard no from me to punish people for playing a game in what is considered a normal fashion. The whole point of flying Emissary is a multiplier in exchange for being targeted extra, not to be targeted exclusively by a single faction. If I am not flying an Emissary or a faction like the GH, its my prerogative to target whomever I want, and I shouldn't be punished for it either.

I like the reaper's eye idea. I would say Reapers do need some improvements to have a bit more skin in the game in general.

I'd say, implement the reaper's eye with limited range to track ships, get rid of the ability for other ships to see the reaper's ship on the map unless they are grade 5, and probably implement some sort of forced server migration upon sinking with a reaper flag.

Right now, I think it is actually too profitable to fly reapers as a PvE ship. The flag gaining value idea is interesting too, could see that being implemented for all factions.

@calicorsaircat

I like the reaper's eye idea. I would say Reapers do need some improvements to have a bit more skin in the game in general.

I'd say, implement the reaper's eye with limited range to track ships, get rid of the ability for other ships to see the reaper's ship on the map unless they are grade 5, and probably implement some sort of forced server migration upon sinking with a reaper flag.

I really like the idea of reapers being a dynamic part of the map, kinda like a player boss fight. I think reapers should remain on the map.

Also think a migration after sinking may be unsessasary care to elaborate?

Right now, I think it is actually too profitable to fly reapers as a PvE ship. The flag gaining value idea is interesting too, could see that being implemented for all factions.

Also agree that reapers is too strong as for pve, part of the reason I think they shouldn't be able to alliance.

@xzodeak

Care to explain how?

I don't understand how a change to the current system (see all emissaries at level 5) is better than a growing radius that just reaches a wider range. Unless at level 5 it's the same thing?

Seems like you can pretty easily spot ships at fairly long distances as is. It also takes very little time to reach level five.

If level 5 remains as full-map coverage, I'm not really against it in, it just doesn't seem to benefit Reapers that much.

What im proposing wouldn't be free and far less powerful 😉

Sure, it would require you to pay, but you'd still keep your flag and thus the overpowered part (which is the ability to find a fresh server in which players are already hoarding loot on their ships) remains the same.

The rewards wouldn't change at all.. just how much you're willing to gamble with them. U would receive all money connected to the flag when u lower.

The Reaper is already a gamble by being permanently visible on the map. I feel like all this would do is discourage Reapers from taking risks (which usually results in more fun gameplay) and instead playing very safe like every other emissary.

@galactic-geek

I don't quite follow the Reaper's Eye idea. It's already easy enough to spot other ships over a considerably large distance, so I don't really see the purpose or value in this. I personally think it's fine as is - pirates just need to stop being so afraid of Reaper Emmisaries. They're still regular pirate crews just like anyone else; they're just easier to spot.

I like the idea of a reapers being like a player world event in a way. (The devs briefly mentioned that this was one of their original intentions for reapers.) The reapers eye is kinda a way of naturally growing the threat level of the reapers as its value goes up. I do agree it is fairly easy to spot enemy ships most of the time but ships can also hide fairly easily (especially if they add more giant eyesores to the map like the tt portals)

If anything, I think the ability to see the Reapers themselves on the map table should be removed altogether until they hit level 5. This would mean that a low-level Reaper would still have the element of surprise because other crews won't flee or server hop so quickly. In all likelihood, they'll continue with their voyages and have even more loot to steal too as a result.

Definitely don't agree with this one, I feel that this would encourage the "running reapers" trend even further. If im looking to make gold why wouldn't I run the faction that gets 2.5x for everything for minimal extra risk?

@xzodeak More or less, my view is that reapers should always be seeking new targets. It should be a high risk, high reward gameplay style, and so I find the need to have Reapers constantly return to attack the same fort or ship when sunk to be an unnecessary part of the gameplay loop. They are already less likely to risk anything to begin with (given that Reaper's ships don't voyage and their rank mostly comes from stolen loot / loot from world events). They also generally choose when and where to fight given they are the typical aggressors. Therefore, there is very little stopping them from returning over and over, which is just antithetical to your analogy that they are a "final boss". Nothing is final about them.

This is why I think they should not be visible on the map to maximize their chance of victory the first time, and so that ships don't just auto leave the server when they see a reaper nearby. However, the proposed drawback to this added power is that they also migrate after sunk.

They are already the best faction for making money, so I don't necessarily agree they aren't worth it. They are only not worth it if what you care most about is sinking other ships for the sport, or collecting flags. I think removing the reaper icon from the map, and giving ships an incentive to actually fight and sink reapers to rid them from the server, will more effectively keep other emissaries from leaving right away, and encourage ships to fight vs. run knowing they cannot return.

Solid post, although I don't agree with everything.

I certainly agree that the Reaper's flag needs to be valuable to other crews and my suggestion is that it adds another multiplier on top of their existing emissary grade multiplier OR it's worth a ton of gold & rep. Additionally, fighting a Reaper (by getting cannon shots, or kills) should greatly increase anyone's emissary Grade.

The Reaper's eye I'm not so sure of, unless you're ultimately suggesting that at Grade V it has the same power as it does right now—the thing is, a Reaper can spot ships a good few map squares away already by just looking around.

I also think that the Reaper Emissary should be visible ONLY on the map tables of other ships that are flying an Emissary. Just yesterday we had an instance where a bunch of kids started to chase us after we sank them. Or, better yet, just force all sunk players onto a new server by preventing their boat from re-spawning and giving them a timer in the event they back spawn—including the Reaper!

I don't know why everyone says that it's so easy to get to Grade V. Honestly it takes my crew about an hour and a half even when there are 2-3 emissaries on the tables. Skeleton forts right off the bat will only get us to grade 3.5.

Forming an alliance with a Reaper is a super sketchy thing to do, so hats off to any Reaper that's able to convince someone to do it. I personally have been able to encourage other non-emissary ships to be my eyes in an alliance, so maybe it can be useful. Maybe only allow non-emissaries to join an alliance in the first place? Gold is the only thing that's shared anyway.

@xzodeak said in The Reapers Rework!:

1: Reapers isn't worth it.

Currently the best way to run reapers is to not run reapers at all... once a reapers ship joins the session all the emmisaries leave the session before it has a chance to hit grade 5.
This leads to the "merchant of death" approach:

• pretend to be a humble merchant
• sink all emissaries
• vote up reapers
• sell and leave

This makes the whole "cat and mouse" game with the reaper being marked on the map obsolete.

I find this claim to be flawed and disagree completely. Firstly, the strategy of gaining loot naked, and raising emissary before turning in is beneficial to the leaderboard and commendations of all factions. This is not exclusive to reapers.

In my opinion, this alone invalidates your claim that reapers emissaries needs adjustment.

I almost exclusively run reapers for the lucrative bonus to all treasure. Waiting to raise reapers until after I have obtained loot would be massively counter-intuitive to my objective of getting the highest bonus possible at turn in.

I imagine a retort would be to point out the reapers flag turn in commendations such as "Merchant Alliance Ransacked." Which would benefit greatly from your plan to wait and raise if the players didn't care about the gold value of their turn ins. Well, our newfound ability to server hop negates the need for this. Get you reapers grade 5, head through the tunnels of the damned, and find yourself in a new world of emissary's on your map.

Fixes

1: The reapers eye!

Currently hitting grade 5 reapers allows players to see all emmisaries in the map i think this should be reworked to make reapers more of a growing threat.

Instead, reapers ships should have an area around their boat (the reapers eye) that emmisaries can be seen within, this reapers eye should grow as the emmisary grade grows.

I completely fail to see how this would affect your perceived problem. While I don't believe the problem really exists. I believe that those who server hop at the first sign of a reaper would simply continue to do this.

2: Server hopping as reapers!

This was implemented! Yay!

2: Sinking a reapers ship is only worthwhile to another reapers

Its very common for reapers to sell all their loot the moment they hit grade 5 meaning if they do sink all players get is a reapers flag which is useless to anyone not running reapers.

It's very common for ANY emissary to sell all their loot when they reach grade 5. It's simply the way emissary's are designed. At least a reaper will hold on to his grade 5 emissary flag. The other factions will grab the grade 5 quest, lower, and start over, minimizing their chance to drop a grade 5 flag to the lowest time-frame possible.

It seems to me that you've forgotten this is a pirate game. We're all pirates, whether we're running reapers or not.

Fixes

3:Make reapers flags worth something!

A reapers flag is already a fairly expensive item to sell at the hideout.

Instead of the bonus % on reapers items sold going straight into the reapers piggy banks it should instead be directly attached to the flag.
Meaning they would need to lower their flag (losing their abilities) to cash out. This flag value would be shown to all other ships on wanted posters around the seas and could be sold to the tavern for gold aswell as experience to all 3 main factions.

Why? Why punish reapers this way?

other changes

1: No more allianced reapers!

This is just reaper hate.

2: I would go as far as reserving a ship position in each server (1/6 ships) for a g5 reaper to merge in.

I like it random.

3: only stolen loot provides reapers experience!

More "grrrr reapers."

I think the problems you state are perceived and not based in fact.

@xzodeak When a Reaper defeats all other emissaries in a server, they should have the ability to speak with the Servant of the Flame, claim a rep and gold reward, and declare "Reaper Supremacy" in which you will merge to a new server to plunder and pillage.

@xzodeak I definitely like the Reapers Eye idea, and I've always wondered why the other factions don't reward you for handing in Reapers flags to keep the Sea safer or whatever, maybe that could give people incentive to fight back?