Concern about quickly diminishing playerbase?

Private servers without progression are coming for you PVE-only players, patience.

Ok Dang Thats A Lot of stuff

@worthington-lll

Month Avg. Players Gain % Gain Peak Players

Last 30 Days 6,607.9 -3,073.5 -31.75% 17,414

September 2020 9,681.4 -2,677.4 -21.66% 26,959

August 2020 12,358.9 -9,451.4 -43.33% 29,221

July 2020 21,810.3 -7,644.2 -25.95% 59,104

June 2020 29,454.5 - - 66,632

That is a nearly 75% customer churn rate, that is abysmal.

There are a couple reasons for these statistics. #1 On June 2020 SOT first released on steam, which means that the numbers got heavily inflated and the amount of people who bought the game are not the same amount of people who will continue to play it. Since it was a new game people bought it because there was all this hype around it, but SOT is a very niche game and there isn't a lot of endgame content. It's one of those games that you play every month when the content update comes out and you play for a week, then leave and come back the next month. You also have to take into account Covid, and how back in June 2020 there was no physical school, and most people didn't even have online school at the time. When the numbers started going down in July and August people started going to physical school as well as online school meaning that they couldn't play games for 24 hours a day. If you look at other game's steam charts you'll see that every other game had a similar dip in players around the same time for the exact reason.

While I am ok with PvP, there are countless posts of people complaining about being forced to play with toxic PvP players. I know many people, that won't buy the game due to Rare's insistence on forcing this gameplay on them.

You're assuming that the people who talk on the forums and complain are the majority of players, when in reality it's the loud minority. Someone joined a PvE only alliance discord server that was literally telling their members to go to the forums and make posts about adding a PvE only mode. Also, most people who make these kinds of posts are fresh account made in the last couple months. People aren't going to come to a SUGGESTIONS forum and say, "I enjoy the state of the game and I wouldn't want it to change at all for the foreseeable future. The only people who want to make these types of posts are people who dislike the game OR if they were told to come here by a discord server.

Now please, the big caveat here: Stop with the PvP/E comments, etc. If any of you actually care about the long-term health of this game, you might want to care more than you realize.

I care about the long term health of the game, but these people who complain about wanting a PvE only mode in a PvPvE game is like buying Minecraft, playing it, and then complaining that there are no guns. You knew what you were buying before you bought it, so why are you complaining that the game YOU bought which you knew full well that there was fighting, has fighting.

I think this game has its moments but I have a genuine concern that bullish management decisions are going to alienate a huge amount of potential player base and severely limit the long-term success of this game. Fewer players = fewer dollars for development, which means the game is going to get stale for the small population that stick with it.

This is why this is a bad argument. Let's say I have a game where you have to get armor, swords, and materials to go fight a dragon. That's all the game is and that's what the game has been for the past 3 years. Thousands of players play the game and and enjoy it since they like being able to kill a dragon. Then suddenly I change the game entirely and make it a farming simulator, and I claim that the reason for the sudden change of no matter materials, swords, armor, or dragons into a farming simulator is because, "huge amount of potential player base and severely limit the long-term success of this game." Yes, people who enjoy farming simulators are going to love this game and I will receive more players for the time being. But what about the people who played this game when it was something completely different? Does their opinions just not matter?

Were they to provide a mode for PvE players as well, I suspect they would see significantly less churn, more sales and lets be honest. PvP players get what they want, PvE players get what they want. The alternative is, PvE players forced to PvP, will eventually stop playing or won't even purchase the game, which has a very detrimental effect on the game's long term viability.

Okay, you can't have it both ways. You can't say that people are leaving the game because of the "toxic" Pvpers, and so adding a PvE only mode will boost player count and will make the PvPers happy. No, it doesn't, because the only people who will come back and play the game is people who want to play the PvE only mode, so it will actually make the PvPers suffer as more and more people go into the PvE only version and they can't steal loot and be a pirate like the developers intended. As for your alternative, yeah, that's the point of the game. That is the whole reason for why the developers added a PvP system in the game and why they've kept it in for so long, because they want their playerbase to be the type who are PvPvE'rs.

Back to the Minecraft analogy, if a couple hundred people said, "I hate minecraft, there are no guns, please make guns a thing." Why? If you don't like the game how it is then leave, we aren't trying to attract gun loving Minecraft players, we want people who want to play Minecraft without guns. Same thing here with SOT, out demographic of people are players who want to PvPvE, and aren't strictly PvErs or PvPers. If you want to strictly be a PvEer then fine, but that doesn't mean we are going to change the ENTIRE game just for you, just because you don't want to play how the game is meant to be played.

Just some thoughts, I'm concerned and would hate to see this game die and what I believe is hurting them the most, is something they could address without impacting those who want PvP.

You keep bringing this point up of, "PvPers won't be affected by this change." I'm going to explain in GREAT detail as to why this is false and why adding a PvE only server will actually kill the game.

Let's say you want to stack the FOTD 10 times, that will take you around 8 hours to do if you're quick. Would you rather go into a server where:

(1) You could be tucked on
(2) You could have your loot be stolen
(3) You waste 8 hours of work because a pirate boarded your ship
(4) You're always under constant threat that you could die

OR, would you rather be in a server where you are safe from all of those problems, and don't have to worry about some pirate stealing your loot?

90% of players will take the second option, because there is no reason to put yourself in a situation where bad things could happen when you could alternatively be completely safe from other players. I'm not saying, "90% of players wants PvE only servers," I'm saying that if they were added, 90% of players would play them. Just like if they added an invincibility potion, EVERYONE would use it, does that mean that it should be added or that people want it? No, but since it's in the game people are going to use it.

The problem with this is because 90% of players who do PVE missions will go to this private server, who's left on the normal servers? People who want to steal loot, but there's no loot to be stolen because everyone is off in fairyland completely safe from any problems that would arise. So all the PvPers leave the game, not to even mention that the most popular streamers have built their career by stealing loot. Pace22 would immediately leave the game because there's nothing left to steal, and many more streamers would leave, as well as most of their viewers, which means that SOT no longer has an internet presence. Now that all the news has gotten out that Sea of Thieves has a SEVERE drop in their playerbase, all of these articles will come out online saying things like,

"Sea of thieves is a bad game," and "Sea of Thieves doesn't care about it's playerbase."

So now that there is all of this stigma around SOT there will be no new players because there are only bad reviews. So people who want to buy Sea of Thieves won't, because there are all of these videos and articles saying that it's a bad game. So Sea of Thieves will no longer be getting an influx of new players, which also means that Rare won't make any money from people buying the game.

What do you do once you've reached 75/75/75/20? By that point you'll have all of the cosmetics, and with the emissary system you can easily get the highest level in a 2-3 months. People will get bored because they're not working towards anything, they already have everything in the game and the highest level in the game, what now? Most players who are max level would normally turn to stealing loot so they don't get bored, but because of PVE only servers that's not a thing anymore. Eventually all of those people will leave because there's no point for them to play anymore, so the only people who play SOT are a few thousand people who didn't get max level and only play Sea of Thieves for 2 hours a week.

Most PvPers who play adventure mode don't play it because they want PvP and ship vs ship battles, if they wanted that they would go to arena. People play adventure because they like stealing loot, so you can't just get rid of the loot.

That's why adding PVE only servers are bad, the PvPers will leave, all of the streamers will leave, people will get bored, the internet starts hating on SOT, and then you have a dead game. Not to even mention the fact that the developers themselves have said many times that they want this game to be one where people of all ideologies can play together. The PVPers, PVEers and the RPers can all be in the same server together, and they will do everything they can to keep that in the game. Here are a couple clips from the developers and owners of Sea of Thieves speaking on this subject.

In referenced to being asked if he can reveal more about who will be able to use custom servers and if they will be available to all players or just content creators and the like, he said:

Developers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_yrN70591Q&feature=youtu.be&t=3578

We don't want to separate players (or) player types... ...The whole identity of Sea of Thieves is that it's a shared world, but enabling people to come up with cool things and socialize together is the kind of thing we love to see in the community.

In referenced to being asked what the release date is for custom servers and the controversy around adding things like a PvE only server or private servers for players to play by themselves with reputation gain.

Developers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_yrN70591Q&feature=youtu.be&t=3681

The whole core premise of Sea of Thieves is that there is danger, and to progress; to get to pirate legend. And through all of that stuff there will be danger, and that there will be other players and the risk/reward is all apart of it. That's what Sea of Thieves has always been... ...It's all about a shared world and it's all about players and we have no intention to deviate from that.

Your only argument that you COULD take would be about the first clip and say something along the lines of, "Well if they don't want to separate players or player types then why did they add arena?" Good question. My thinking is that adding arena itself was a different gamemode entirely. It wasn't meant to replace adventure or to become more popular, it was made to be an alternate gamemode that you can play when you get bored of adventure. Now the reason as to why this thinking doesn't translate to a PvE only server is because of what I said above, all of the negative side affects that adding a PvE only mode would have.

As the developers said, the path to pirate legend involves the threat that you could be fought by other players. That's why they aren't going to add a PvE only server, as they believe and the majority of players believe that the path to pirate legend includes the fear of being fought by another pirate and losing your loot. There is no reason to pander to the couple thousand people who want PVE only servers, when you have hundreds of thousands of players who have bought and actively play the game because of the PVP factor. It doesn't make sense to change the game for a few, when the vast majority don't want that. Since most people fall into the category of PvPvEers, that would mean that if you remove the PvP aspect of the game, most of the playerbase would leave.

People are always upset that in a PVP game, which has PVP in it, which is advertised as having PVP, a game that has always had PVP since the beginning of it's existence, a game that YOU bought knowing full well it had PVP, has PVP. People who think PVP doesn't belong in Sea of Thieves and complain that PVP is, "toxic," are the same type of people to play Minecraft and complain there are no guns.

At the end of the day whether you want to add PvE servers or not, the developers themselves have said multiple times that they don't want to separate players into different servers. They want this game to be one where players of all groups, PvPers, PvErs, and RPers can all be in the same server together. The only thing that can change the developers vision for the game is if the community comes together and says that they want something different. That isn't happening, and they still have a very strong community in favor of PvPvE, so there's no point in trying to do something that could backfire into something very deadly.

This game was MADE and is a game for PvPvErs, not for PvErs or people who just want to do missions and voyages without any threat whatsoever, the sooner you accept that this game was BUILT for PvPvE, then sooner you will be able to have fun in the game. If you don't like that fact then you can leave, as this will never change.

So at the end of the day whether you want to believe me when I say that it's only a small minority of players who are leaving the game because there aren't PvE only servers, and that the reason why steamcharts is failing is because the game has no endgame content that isn't a bunch of PvE or not. If you want to believe me when I explained in great detail as to why adding a PvE only server is wrong and how it will just help in killing the game since the reason why people are leaving the game in the first place is because there isn't enough endgame content, so adding a PvE only mode would just make people get to endgame faster and make them quit the game faster because they've "beat" the game. If you want to ignore ALL OF THAT, you can't ignore the developers and what they have to say about the game, because at the end of the day it's up to the developers to make the decision.

The only way that SOT will add a PvE only server, is if a majority of the community says that they want PVE only servers, until that happens, a PVE only server will never be added. When you are the owner of a video game, you have to do what the majority of people want or you risk killing your game, and right now the majority of people do not want PvE only servers, so they aren't going to add them.

Now there are definitely MANY things wrong with SOT, and making more endgame content that isn't just repeating the same thing over and over again would make player keep their retention, doesn't mean that it's a PvE only server that's the issue. The issue is player retention, as people who actually enjoy the game just get bored of it because there's nothing left to do. I think you're confusing the real issue of why people are leaving with the people on the suggestions forums complaining about how the game isn't specifically catered to them in every way.

The reason as to why people aren't continuing to play the game and why steamcharts is going down is mainly due to there being no endgame content that isn't just hundreds of hours of grinding the same PvE mission over and over again. So people get bored of that and either turn to PvP, or they leave entirely.

@kaijoi said:

Your only argument that you COULD take would be about the first clip and say something along the lines of, "Well if they don't want to separate players or player types then why did they add arena?" Good question. My thinking is that adding arena itself was a different gamemode entirely.

I think Arena was added to appease PvPers who demanded something akin to a Battle Royale style of play, like Fortnite. It was not added to appease PvEers in an attempt to rid the main game of PvP threats.

Well argued, Sir!

@worthington-lll

It seems odd that it should be one or the other. If you provide something for x player base, in a separate shard, you are taking away from x player base on their shard?

Yes. Because the only reason why Pvpers play adventure mode is to steal loot. I explained it in the long paragraph as well: Most PvPers who play adventure mode don't play it because they want PvP and ship vs ship battles, if they wanted that they would go to arena. People play adventure because they like stealing loot, so you can't just get rid of the loot. That's just how it is, PvErs and people who do voyages are the prey for people who like to steal loot. Right now this isn't much of an issue because on average if you go into a server with 6 ships only 1 ship will be a PvP fighting crew, and the other 5 will be happy doing their voyages alone in peace. Now if this was changed and became something like 3 attacking ships and 3 voyage ships, yes this would be a problem as more people would stop playing the game because you would ALWAYS get attacked by decent players who have nothing to lose of their own.

Simply suggesting there is a missed opportunity here for a for-profit entity.

I mean, you're right, but only short term. like I said in my long paragraph, adding a PVE only mode would make the majority of the playerbase leave the game, so you would have less people to buy ancient coins and play your game.

As for diminishing numbers on steam. Destiny has done much better (I don't play it but happen to know some of them).

Good for Destiny. I wasn't saying that SOT isn't losing players, it clearly is. I was saying that there are other factors besides just, "No PvE only server" I was giving covid and no school as another reason as that's why every other game got a boost in numbers, and then dropped around August. And again, Sea of Thieves isn't losing the majority of its players from no PvE only mode, they're losing it from no endgame content that isn't just grinding the same voyage for hundreds of hours.

All that said, there is a lot of talk about community but there seem to be a lot of people that want to attack people who put PvE into any thread or have a differing perspective. Frankly, that's the issue with our country right now, inability to have civil discourse, and to truly consider and listen to divergent viewpoints.

Absolutely. It's stupid when people hold a viewpoint and refuse to explain as to WHY they hold this viewpoint, and just tell anyone else that they disagree with that they should shut up. But just because some people are idiotic in their explanations and just put other people down instead of explaining their reasoning, doesn't mean that their viewpoint is wrong, it just means that they're stupid.

I never said I was going to stop playing, but I do believe there is a big missed opportunity here and I believe it has a material impact on potential sales and customer churn.

You could make an argument like if you completely revamp the game into something completely different that you might get a ton of new buyers. But because most people who quit the game already bought it, Rare isn't going to make a lot of money because the people who are getting back into the game have already bought the game.

The fact that Rare wouldn't share numbers in the past, makes one question if there is a perspective they didn't want to get into the public. I guess we'll see how Steam goes long term. On a positive note, the reviews are overall positive but I still think they are missing a huge player base by not providing choice for one player base (which really doesn't take anything away from those that don't want it).

Absolutely, I've read some of the reviews and I'd say like 95% of the negative reviews are from people saying, "I got attacked in a pirate game, and I hate it." Now you could look at that and say that we need to change the game completely for that few margin of players, but the vast majority of people like the game the way it is. And it's not as easy as just adding a PVE only mode, because adding the PvE only mode would kill of the majority of people who enjoy the game.

Basic economics though folks. Cater to a larger potential market (feasible without alienating existing player base), make more sales, take profits, scale development efforts to accelerate addressing things like end game issues that have been mentioned in this thread.

If there is a way to cater to the negative reviews by adding some sort of PvE only server without making everyone else leave the game because you can't steal loot anymore since everyone is in the PvE only server, then do it and Rare will make more money. But that's not possible and you have to choose which is better, keeping the majority of players? Or risking it all and hoping that the small minority of players who want this change will be enough to overtake the majority. Basic economics to go with the safer and more reasonable option as the alternative is to kill the game.

And I definitely think that they should add some sort of endgame content that's not just repeats of the same voyage for hundreds of hours. Something like once you get pirate legend you get to hunt other players. You get a voyage that looks like the skeleton voyage and you track them down based on their, "last seen at" island. Involving players will always make things fresh as each new player is a completely different encounter and will always be different.

Or, don't and roll out content slower and well, see what happens I guess :)

I mean... This has been working for the longest of times. And you even admit that you have to cater to the small minority without affecting the majority, which as I already explained isn't possible. So yeah... I guess we'll have to see what happens. If this game does die it won't be because of no PvE only modes, it will be because of player retention.

I've read a couple of your posts and you seem to be very adamant about the idea that you could just add a PvE only mode and it wouldn't affect anything and it would actually be great for the game. I'd be more than willing to hear your ideas for how this would work since if we were able to put in a PvE only mode without affecting the majority of players then this would definitely make the game much more popular. So how do you propose we do this without all of the side affects I put in my paragraph?

And even if you can come up with a way for both players to be happy, you would still need to convince the developers to completely change the way that they want the game to be played and install a PvE only mode. Like with the links I shared above said, the developers believe that the risk/reward of encountering other players is apart of the game that they enjoy. So unless SOT starts to be completely gutted from a lack of PvE only mode then they're never going to add it.