@xg12im12eaperx sagte in Another Sword Rebalance:
@insaiity
Well you can't balance a weapon around the top tier players. If you make the sword as good as 2 guns used together, then it is basically a buff to everyone that uses sword so they can more evenly play against the top tier players, that put thousands of hours into pratice to get that good. It would reduce the skill gap even more.
Also sure a good DG player can maintain distance but a good sword user with good movement can also close this distance.
It doesn't take thousands of hours to be good at dg. In fact, it takes much more effort to be good with sword than to dg.
I would have agreed with you that the sword is more skillful as DG and takes longer to master when it still had the xploit you could learn. Now DG is way harder just because of the simple fact that you have to aim and be pretty percise and fast with it to do any good.
Also, yes you can and should balance a weapon based off what the top players are doing; they are the ones who define the meta because they understand the game the most. If you have some other ideas to make it a viable weapon for the top player, please share.
No, not necessarily. You only have to balance stuff around pros if the normal community picks it up from them and also starts to use it the same way as pros use it.
Just because DG is a very powerful weapon in the hands of very good aimers with quick reaction times, doesn't mean that it is that strong for everyone. It is only so good because the player is that good. That's how a skillgap forms, which is good. Better players should be rewarded for being better.
Also you forget that you have 2 weapons on you. DG'ers make use of both their guns while you want to get the sword as strong as 2 guns used together. Snipe the DG'er first so he has to heal and then push him.
You make the argument that sword is essentially two weapons.
No you make that argument when you want sword to compete with DG. Sword is only a half of your arsenal so if you only use sword of course you are at a disadvantage at range.
It only has that kind of damage output when up close. You have to get up close first, and with current mechanics, you are usually dead before that can happen (against the type of dg'er we are talking about).
Well I play sword every couple matches even against good players and I can get close to them, especially on a boat. On land I can also do that but not on completely open spaces, there only sometimes.
And that type of DG'er is pretty rare, there aren't a lot of top tier DG'ers left in the game because that puppet got them all banned, a lot also left because of the forever existing problem that's called hitreg.
Almost all parts of every ship are CQC, except maybe the top deck of a galleon. Despite that the boat still has limitations so if your movement is on point you will be able to eventually force them into a CQC. Especially if you hit them with a sniper shot first, they most likely will seek shelter around the captains quarter, it is CQC there.
A dg'er is going to stay top deck, where they have advantage, except to go downstairs to grab ammo. Even then, they have blundy for when a sword user gets too close.
Well then take peek shots at them from the stair, or wait for them to grab ammo. They only have 10 shots and 5 food if they stay up there, eventually they have to come down. You also have a gun! Use it against the blunder. Stop trying to fight a shotgun with a sword, well stop trying if you are not good enough with the sword.
The same can be said about the sword. If the sword user knows how to dodge and get close he'll win almost everytime in close quarter combat.
I disagree. Again, sword is too buggy right now to be consistent, even in CQC. This is especially noticeable sword vs sword.
Swords mayor problem lies in sword vs sword combat. Almost all the bugs that can happen happen there. But we are talking about sword vs gun so this doesn't matter.
Proper movement can be done without relying on the block, as shown by many DG players. If you are good with strafing then hitting shots on you is quite difficult.
Actually, no. Proper block jumps combined with regular jumps is what you need to move more sporadically (commonly called bunny hopping). Simply strafing from side-to-side is not enough against a competent dg'er (we are talking about people who regularly hit their shots).
Then you probably haven't been in any high tier tdm's. Jumping will get you killed faster than you can think. Because the second you jump you will follow a certain path and land at a certain spot. Everyone with decent aim will hit you everytime. Almost never jumping and mostly strafing is the only consitent way of dodging shots in this game.
And sure the block jump helps, but it is still not necessary because in tdm's Dg'ers don't have that either and can still dodge shots just fine.
Dg players also have the advantage of consistently putting shots downrange; a sword player puts half as much shots downrange and that's with putting the sword away as well.
Of couse you can't challenge a DG in a shoot-out. You tap him once and push while he's eating.
Of course it is easier said then done, but you don't want the counter play to be super easy either. If they try to shoot you with the blunder then they will have to come closer. If you can then take the fight to a place where you have the advantage then you will win, but if you just go up to them to slice them then you will lose. Simple as that. You could also just use your secondary and shoot them twice from a distance.
I'm not asking for the counterplay to be easy; I'm asking for the counterplay to be consistent and viable. In it's current state, the sword needs changes to achieve both.
No it doesn't, it already has one, that's called good movement. If the sword gets in your face even once then 9/10 times it's game over for the DG'er, so of course it has to be at least a little bit hard for the sword to get into that position.
Blunder is also the only other close-range weapon that can compete with the sword. There are 2 type of guns in this game. Long and short range. Of each there are two. Each have some kind of advantages and disadvantages. So of course sword will have trouble against blunder. And blunder will have trouble against sword if they even only miss one shot.
Yes, but again, a dg'er will just maintain distance. Sword lunge is the sword's only form of mid range attacking power, so improving this will mean they can more effectively deal with a dg'er trying to maintain distance.
Again, use your secondary, you have it for a reason. And there are so many obstacles on a ship, use them as cover to prep a sword lunge till the point of where the DG'er can't cancel you out of it anymore.
Well it is also incorrect that the DG is meta. Normaly a meta starts because something is op (like the old DG exploit) back then it was a meta because a lot of people switched to it. Now some DG players switched back to sword and if not then it is just because they are used to that particular playstyle or because sword feels awful in comparison to before. If both ways are viable I wouldn't switch either because I spent a lot of time perfecting that one style.
Additionally DG offers an option to not have to deal with the broken sword. So instead of buffing the sword how about just fixing the bugs that it has.
First of all, dg IS the meta, plain and simple.
Nope.
You have literally argued why competitive players are using dg over sword, then argued "but sword is still the meta anyways." You are claiming one thing in your first breath and disproving it in your second.
Not quite. I explained how meta usually forms and that in this case it's not like that. It's just plain preference.
Next, sword is buggy and broken.
Absolutely agree on that one.
It heavily lacks consistency (something dg does not lack, even when accounting for hit reg).
Ok that's just plain wrong. Do you even know all of the bugs that can happen while DG'ing.
- Your sights can get glitched out in 3 different ways, depening on what gun you switch to.
- The animations don't even match the slightes bit with the actual shooting when you switch.
- HITREG (hitreg alone is a big enough problem for DG, sure in some rare cases it happens to sword too but guns only have limited ammo and take forever to relode. It affects them more often and more severly than sword.)
Fixing block is part of removing that bugginess. Literally last night, I got off two hits with sword 3-hit combo against another sword user before they were able to get two hits off of their own. Under what should have happened, they would have still been prevented from attacking. I wouldn't even have been able to get off block until my animations finished. So again, block must be fixed.
Yes I agree. But that is sword vs sword and not sword vs gun. I agree that sword has to be fixed, but that is something entirely diffrent than buffing it.
Some competitive players use it. But first of all almost all competitive players look down upon the sword players because right now it is a skill-less spam weapon. And second of all DG is used in top tier crews not because of the DG aspect in itslef but because they have a team with great teamwork. It lets them stay at their positions like helm etc. and still help out their team at the cannons when a boarder makes it up the boat. The team shot/insta kill potential makes it so viable. You can't make the sword do the same because with sword you have to be up close to do dmg and it takes time to get to people.
True, it does allow crew members to stay at their stations. But you also just pointed out time to kill is much quicker than the sword, which is one of my points.
Yes it is so quick because 4 people shoot at you, if 4 people swing or lunge at you it is almost as fast depening on how big the gap is.
Sword takes time to go after someone to kill, often longer than it takes to get off two shots from a dg'er or even just a well placed blundy.
Yes it does, but when you get close you almost got a certain kill. That's the reward for it. You also are not limited by ammo.
Lastly, m1 spamming is usually used because sword lunge involves too much risk to being killed with current mechanics.
No because the sword right now has no depth and because for how easy it is to do it gets rewarded way too strongly.
Sword is already strong enough if you are good with it. Most of the time you only have to get one lunge in to get the advantage (with wallbanging removed you can easily do that while seeking cover behind a mast), after that you chain lunge and can kill an entire crew pretty fast.
Again, timing lunges properly is exceedingly difficult with the current charge time, especially against a full crew of competent dg'ers.
Of course it will be difficult when you face 4 guns pointed at you. Do you expect to just easily kill a whole crew of competent DG'ers with sword?
One shot, you are suddenly canceled.
Only at at the beginning of the animation, at the point of no return it doesn't matter. That's why you usually prep your lunge behind cover and then just double lunge them. That's how you can kill a whole crew in seconds.
You also are very vulnerable to getting hit while charging, even with wallbanging removed.
Yes for the first charge you are, but after you hit that the enemies usually are disoriented and don't know your position exactly so you can already prep the next lunge and kill them pretty quick, even mutliple people at once. It is not super easy, and it shouldn't be.
Well on the other hand the lunge has an insane hitbox so missing it is practically impossible.
There is a fantastic range from side-to-side with the hitbox on sword, yes. However, with the current charge time, what it lacks is proper timing to effectively get off a sword lunge that will hit. This is why I suggested a reduction in the charge time. It shouldn't be a massive reduction; I believe even a slight one would be enough.
If you play right then no. It is completely fine. But for the sake of argument let's say you give the sword that buff, you would make it even stronger in midrange while it already is super strong at close range. You then also should remove or nerve another feature to balance it out. Preferably close range, for example the stun, to make it easier for DG to fight them there.
Also when people argue that the sword is too strong on boats atm, then sword advocates argue that it is a CQC weapon and the DG'er should switch weapons and stop relying on one combination or one gun all the time.
What sword advocate argues that dg'er should switch to sword on a boat?
If you look at any "nerf sword" post on this forum you will find at least 3 people on every thread that will argue this way.
Sure, down below deck it might have an advantage (as previously discussed). But yet again, a dg'er can easily win that scenario too. They just need to maintain proper distance.
Well, let's say the same about the sword then, you will easily win the encounter on deck if you just close the distance....
To keep your distance you will have to try to get away from the sword user, below deck it is already quite narrow and he will try to close the gape, probably with running, so each time you stop running and try to aim and shoot the sword player gets closer and closer.
It's the same for top deck. Every second you don't run away, the sword player gets closer. Keeping your distance is as difficult as closing it, if not more difficult. And that's how it should be. (I'm talking about strictly boat combat here.)
Running sniperblundy and you win the up close encounters as well.
But then the sword user can challenge the DG'er to a shoot-out because both have only one viable gun for ranged combat, so it evens it out.
Now I can say the same. Why do you want sword to be on an even playing field with guns in mid range? Just switch your weapons to 2 guns when you are in an area that is more open.
If you want sword to be better in mid range scenarios then make DG better in CQC and therefore remove the stun from the sword.
So, your solution is just "drop sword and dg." I think you missed the entire point of making sword viable against dg.
It already is in the right scenarios. No matter what you do, on open space the 2 guns will always be superior until they run out of ammo. To fix that you would have to give the sword a teleport to player option. Even with your reduced lunge time a DG'er can still fight you without even being in lunge distance. So this buff would basically only make the sword even stronger on boats.
You also just suggested a nerf to a weapon that is still inferior to dg.
It's is not if you play it right. Sadly almost no one wants to pick up again because it is broken. Fix the bugs and then let's see if it needs any buffs.
On a side note of the stun: I don't understand why people complain about it. It is already massively nerfed to what it was on old sword.
Yes it is nerfed, but before there was a more severy penatly for missing swings. So if you would've just swung your sword mindlessly then you would get penalized. Now there is next to no penalty for missing a swordswing. That's why the stun is too strong. There is no downside to keep swinging until you backtrack someone into a stunlock.
