Simple Reaper's Bones/PvP changes - loot in red water returns to the map

Going to have to say a big no on that. If you cannot capture and disable a ship before it enter's the Red Sea then you do not deserve the treasure to be magically transported to you just because you forced them off the map. No different than those PvE players complaining they get no credit for digging up treasure before turning it in - it is not your treasure until you secure and turn it in. You want it, get it faster or smarter.

@dlchief58 Yes I see your point, but, these people who I am talking about are normally miles away and turn towards the edge of the map as soon as they see us getting closer. It is a skill-based game, and running to the red water takes no effort. Managing to escape a chaser does. This might sound bad, but deep down I think everyone can agree somewhat: people with more experience or better tactical thinking should prevail, whether that be with PvP or PvE. People should not expect to be able to play this game without encountering hostiles. Also, in many cases, it is truly impossible to catch someone in certain circumstances; like a galleon chasing a brigantine into the wind, for example.

@stayoutofhouse Then you need to be better, sneakier. You said it yourself, people with better tactical thinking and experience should prevail. However you failed in that regard because you did not stop a simple "no skill" tactic as you put it... so where is your superior experience and tactics there? If you cannot secure the loot then you do not deserve it....period. Does not matter if they decide to suicide at the sight of your ship, you should not have let them see you. It in no way should be handed to you on a silver platter just outside the Red Sea because you cornered them there or they decided to go scorched earth on you in denying you the spoils.

Let me say first off I would never destroy good loot. With that said though loot on peoples ships does not belong to you. If they decide to sail off the edge of the map there is no reason why you should get the loot.

If the ship you were going after spotted you from afar in their spyglass because as you say yourself they are miles away then good for them, they are playing how they should be by paying attention and keeping the ball in their court. So many ships are so careless out there and dont even notice you until you are on top of them. I remember once me and my crew were waiting to get to an outpost with our brig and there was a sloop just hanging out near it. It was late and we didnt feel like going anywhere else so we waited abit and the sloop didnt move so we sailed over and sure enough it didnt drop its sails to leave until were were literally right next to it lol. If we wanted to sink them we could have but we usually do not do that so we let them be and they sailed away as fast as they could. Point of story? Going after a crew who pays attention will always be harder than a crew who does not and often times you will not succeed, just part of life on the seas.

@dlchief58 You are correct, we resort to use sneakier strategies to sink some people. We row to them and crash their ship, we put on a default ship and crash into rocks purposefully until we get close. It is so incredibly boring to do these things though and it would take hours to do it with every ship on the server that we find. I guess I am a bit of a boomer when it comes to this game, when everything was full naval battle and people actually fought back, but PvP now is definitely unfavoured and unbalanced to the PvE. It is easy to prove because if we encounter 50 ships, maybe 3 will fight us. Most updates are adding to the rewards you get from new raids, encounters, and digging loot. I’m fine with chasing someone for an hour before we catch them, but suicide removes fun for both crews. I get that some people don’t want their time wasted, but I have two solutions: fight back, if you sink, it was good practice; the other is hand over something and beg for mercy, most people would probably grant it. Fighting/running away can be fun, the fear that you get with loads of loot is good, and Rare needs to encourage people to try and learn to defend said loot. I still stick with my original argument that should stop people from committing suicide and instead, running or fighting.

@stayoutofhouse I do like your second suggestion to give the Reaper's a more limited way to check what other emissaries are out there before they reach level 5.

I honestly don’t understand why so many people disagree with this so much. If someone who would get your loot even if you don’t go off the map, why not let them have it or give yourself a chance by fighting and possibly even taking their loot.

@dlchief58 Bruh it’s not a matter of getting it “faster” or “smarter”. All a toxic PvEr has to do in order to spitefully waste your time and deny loot from you is point their ship in any direction and wait. It’s exploitative of a game mechanic designed to deter people from running off the map, and people are essentially just using it to grief other players because the idea of someone better than you beating you fair and square in a fight and earning the loot they deserve is just unbearable to some people. The only possible reason someone would do that is in order to ruin another player’s experience, Rare shouldn’t be enabling that kind of behaviour.

@stayoutofhouse I don't disagree with you. From what I've seen on these forums, the general reaction from long-time players is that SoT is perfect and that it's not the game that needs to change, it's you.

What you're saying makes sense and I support it.

A player does not have to engage in PvP, and making that choice does not automatically entitle the aggressors to free loot.

Regardless of how annoying some find it to be...

• They aren't required to roll over and give you the loot.
• They aren't required to fight you.
• They aren't required to out-sail you for hours on end.

The red is an out that is a loss to both crews, no matter how they feel about it.

It also fits into the lore that outside of a few very specific scenarios, the Devil's Shroud is impassable and functions as such in the game.

Does the Shroudbreaker protect your ship from the regular red sea for a time, or only the area around the Shores of Gold? if it will give you enough protection to allow looting such "runners" at the regular map border, then just keep the Shores of Gold on the "Got the gold coin" save point so you can launch it at will if someone makes a run for the red sea.

@stayoutofhouse said in Simple Reaper's Bones/PvP changes - loot in red water returns to the map:

I honestly don’t understand why so many people disagree with this so much. If someone who would get your loot even if you don’t go off the map, why not let them have it or give yourself a chance by fighting and possibly even taking their loot.

What are the chances of the pursuing ship having loot? Any time we have ever sunk a pursuing ship I cant remember one time any of them had loot so I do not see that as a great reason why one should stop and fight someone. I dont disagree that its rather poor sportsman ship but I just do not think anyone is entitled to loot and if a ship decides to destroy their loot that is on them, atleast they are out of the cash in aswell.

@archangel-timmy said in Simple Reaper's Bones/PvP changes - loot in red water returns to the map:

A player does not have to engage in PvP, and making that choice does not automatically entitle the aggressors to free loot.

Regardless of how annoying some find it to be...

• They aren't required to roll over and give you the loot.
• They aren't required to fight you.
• They aren't required to out-sail you for hours on end.

The OP isn't suggesting any of this; these are all straw man arguments.

@prescafatty said in Simple Reaper's Bones/PvP changes - loot in red water returns to the map:

@archangel-timmy said in Simple Reaper's Bones/PvP changes - loot in red water returns to the map:

A player does not have to engage in PvP, and making that choice does not automatically entitle the aggressors to free loot.

Regardless of how annoying some find it to be...

• They aren't required to roll over and give you the loot.
• They aren't required to fight you.
• They aren't required to out-sail you for hours on end.

The OP isn't suggesting any of this; these are all straw man arguments.

This is indeed what they are suggesting. They want to take away a viable tactic which takes the choice away from the player and leaves them with basically the three options I mentioned.

If the loot drifts from Red to Blue, sailing into the Red would be akin to scuttling, giving up, rolling over.

If a player doesn't want to simply roll over, they are then forced to fight or endlessly run. Forcing a player into a scenario they cannot directly handle or simply have no desire to, does not automatically entitle the aggressor to any loot, period.

@c-l-u-3-3 said in Simple Reaper's Bones/PvP changes - loot in red water returns to the map:

@dlchief58 you do get credit for digging up treasure (kinda)...you legit get emissary for stepping on an island with gold hoarders....

No, you get a boost in Emissary rank which is a temporary thing and in no way related to commendations or loot (which become permanent once conditions are met or turned in). Furthermore you get sank, it is gone so most definitely not the same as it can be taken away just the same as loot not turned in.

@c-l-u-3-3 said in Simple Reaper's Bones/PvP changes - loot in red water returns to the map:

@dlchief58 but what about the actual ships themselves? My crew and I were on a sloop and pinned a brig against the edge of the map (if you know anything about ship mechanics you would understand chasing a brig in a sloop is very difficult to do) , however, rather than take a fight they ran into the red sea (with a grade 4 athenas emissary and likely an athenas chest) rather than take a chance and fight us. Not to mention because of the outright speed of the brig we couldn't even swim far enough into the red sea to get the loot (we got spawned back).

Does not make a lick of difference - you fail to secure the loot before they enter the Red Sea then you do not deserve it. There are no rules stating someone has to fight you nor surrender their loot when cornered. Adopt better strategies if you want to prevent this from happening, simple as that. Just like I tell the PvEers, it is not your loot until you secure and turn it in.

Sounds to me that you are making excuses because you were bested by what some of you refer to as a "no-skill tactic".

@prescafatty said in Simple Reaper's Bones/PvP changes - loot in red water returns to the map:

@archangel-timmy said in Simple Reaper's Bones/PvP changes - loot in red water returns to the map:

A player does not have to engage in PvP, and making that choice does not automatically entitle the aggressors to free loot.

Regardless of how annoying some find it to be...

• They aren't required to roll over and give you the loot.
• They aren't required to fight you.
• They aren't required to out-sail you for hours on end.

The OP isn't suggesting any of this; these are all straw man arguments.

None of what he wrote is a "straw-man argument" - I suggest you look up the definition of the term. While the OP may not have written exactly that, it is most definitely what the final outcome of his request is. He basically wants the loot to be served up to him as he waits outside the Shroud, basically summed up in point 1. All other points are valid as well, justifying someone to sail into the Shroud to deny the pursuers if they so desire.

@c-l-u-3-3 said in Simple Reaper's Bones/PvP changes - loot in red water returns to the map:

@combatxkitty except it takes skill to drive a ship to the edge of a map (if you corner them...you outplayed them) which should entitle you to loot. The least that could be done is make a barrier where ships hit and sink no matter what, that way you can swim to the site. This is because ships can travel past a barrier in the red sea where if you swim far enough you get spawned back. Meaning, that the loot is unreachable.

But did you really outplay them if they consciously made the decision to go into the Red? I think not. I'd say you were outplayed and they got some sort of victory by denying you the loot.

And definitely no to invisible walls in the game. We aren't playing bumper boats here. You can't get the loot before they outwit you, you don't deserve it - Deal With It!

@archangel-timmy

They want to take away a viable tactic

Ok, yes, agree, and I also support removing this tactic.

Sailing into the red with loot is the equivalent of popping a basketball because the opposing team is too good. Once loot has been found, there should not be a way to destroy it. It's antithetical to all of Rare's other game design decisions.

@prescafatty said in Simple Reaper's Bones/PvP changes - loot in red water returns to the map:

@archangel-timmy

They want to take away a viable tactic

Ok, yes, agree, and I also support taking removing this tactic.

Sailing into the red with loot is the equivalent of popping a basketball because the opposing team is too good. Once loot has been found, there should not be a way to destroy it. It's antithetical to all of Rare's other game design decisions.

Disagree completely. First off you make an assumption they did it because they think the other team is too good and that most certainly is not true in all cases. It is more that they don't want to get caught up in playing the aggressor's game and have their own Kobayashi Maru to escape. Make them play your game rather than playing theirs. You can't get it, you don't deserve it - simple as that.

Perhaps they are going into the red for other reasons than you think. You are narrowly seeing it as them trying to deny you their loot on board. However there are many other reasons for leading pursuers into the Red, one of which is teasing and aggravating the attackers (a thing I particularly enjoy, especially if I am close to finishing for the session) - I have taken great joy in wasting pursuers time in this way, usually with little to no loot on board all the while dancing and emoting "RODL" to taunt them.

Another reason for this tactic (which I have been known to use) is to go into the Red to save time when attempting a particular goal. Most treasure I have little use for now so am willing to lose or sacrifice it, but my time is more valuable. So if I have someone on my tail while I am trying to accomplish a particular goal for a limited time session, you can bet your patooty if given the chance I'll lead them away from my true goal and either scuttle or drive into the Red to lose them to give me a more favorable spawn position to continue on my goals - treasure on board be damned. I don't always have time to jack with someone who feels they have to chase me when I have a limited window in which to accomplish my goals.

Now if they are poor sports or jerks to begin with, I have no problem denying them any and all treasure on board. But don't get me wrong, I do not shy from a fight if there is a window for victory or a chance for mutually assured destruction. I do not even care if sunk with a load of treasure. But if you are being a total jerk about it, I have no problem denying you the spoils - thankfully this does not happen all that often (contrary to what a lot of people try to post here). And I usually make a revenge trip back if it fits into my schedule for that session - as I said I play my game and not theirs.

@c-l-u-3-3 said in Simple Reaper's Bones/PvP changes - loot in red water returns to the map:

@combatxkitty yea of course....but any skilled crew would rather try to out-sail and fight than run. If you have the knowledge to pay attention you should have the knowledge to out-sail or fight

Thats what you think they should do. No one is obligated to fight in this game skilled crew or not. My crew is rather skilled and we would choose not to fight over fight unless we are really backed into a corner, its just how we roll so yes we would high tail it out and do outpost drop offs, then once all loot is sold if we are in mood we fight or just continue making them chase us which we really enjoy. Personally if I had loot and if it was looking like out sailing wasnt working yes my crew would fight although that rarely ever happens since we cash in so much, keep a look out and are generally good at sailing. Like I said I think it is poor sportsman ship but its their loot their choice. Ive had someone actually do that to me once so I know how it feels and we were trying to give them loot lol.

Also you cant compare the knowledge of looking through a spyglass to the knowledge of how to properly fight or sail. I think everyone should learn to fight and sail properly so I am not excusing people but just because someone is really good looking out does not mean they are good at fighting or sailing for that matter just like many people who are good at fighting are terrible at sailing. Im just saying atleast they are keeping a look out because many do not so I give them credit for that much.

Has Rare ever addressed this? Does anyone know?

@archangel-timmy said in Simple Reaper's Bones/PvP changes - loot in red water returns to the map:

If the loot drifts from Red to Blue, sailing into the Red would be akin to scuttling, giving up, rolling over.

If a player doesn't want to simply roll over, they are then forced to fight or endlessly run. Forcing a player into a scenario they cannot directly handle or simply have no desire to, does not automatically entitle the aggressor to any loot, period.

Fleeing to the shroud is indeed giving up, it should be the equivalent of scuttling. If someone wants to give up completely, my argument suggests the aggressor has won, and therefore, should be rewarded. If someone is under attack, they should only have 3 options, give up, run, or fight. The option ‘destroy your loot’ makes no sense in any way. Presenting players situations that they don’t know how to handle at first are what drives the game. For the runners, these 3 options should be the only ones. The situation that we face is people running into the red water, that is in most cases impossible to deal with, as it is an exploit.

@c-l-u-3-3 said in Simple Reaper's Bones/PvP changes - loot in red water returns to the map:

@combatxkitty except it takes skill to drive a ship to the edge of a map (if you corner them...you outplayed them) which should entitle you to loot. The least that could be done is make a barrier where ships hit and sink no matter what, that way you can swim to the site. This is because ships can travel past a barrier in the red sea where if you swim far enough you get spawned back. Meaning, that the loot is unreachable.

See that is where I think you are wrong. Why in the world would you want to drive a ship towards the edge of the map? That is the worse thing you can do in my opinion if you want to go after a ship for their loot. I can see how one can say well it leaves them with no choice but to fight so ok I get that but it also leaves a big possibility that they we destroy the loot, its a gamble and its one I am sure anyone knows they are taking when pushing a ship towards end of map so I fail to see how you think that entitles you to loot especially when there are other ways you could have played that situation. How about if you see they are heading that way to pull back? They need to go to an outpost right? Check map and see where nearest post is and head there or let them get comfy and move away from the red sea and get them that way. This reminds me of a galleon that was chasing my brig. We sailed towards red sea but had zero intention of actually going off map, we quickly changed course and the galleon ended up going over lol it was hilarious. Sometimes chasing someone blindly or even chasing someone to the edge on purpose isnt best strategy.

Im an angel on this game for most part but ships we will go after if in mood are ships with reapers chest or reapers bones so I do know somewhat about pursuing ships and chasing them off the edge of map doesnt seem like a victory to me personally. Of course most times when we get to ship and shoot a couple cannons and the people yell they are friendly we stop, I know we are softies.

@theguvna3013 said in Simple Reaper's Bones/PvP changes - loot in red water returns to the map:

@dlchief58 Bruh it’s not a matter of getting it “faster” or “smarter”. All a toxic PvEr has to do in order to spitefully waste your time and deny loot from you is point their ship in any direction and wait. It’s exploitative of a game mechanic designed to deter people from running off the map, and people are essentially just using it to grief other players because the idea of someone better than you beating you fair and square in a fight and earning the loot they deserve is just unbearable to some people. The only possible reason someone would do that is in order to ruin another player’s experience, Rare shouldn’t be enabling that kind of behaviour.

Your view is very narrow, as there are many VALID reasons why someone will sail off into the Red. I find it hilarious that you refer to PvEers as "toxic" when it is the furthest thing from the truth - does not anyone know what true toxicity is anymore? Denying you loot is hardly toxic, grow a pair already.

You assume that you are better than someone because they chose not to engage and flee into the Red. That might be true some of the time, but there are many other reasons why someone would do so. They could be doing it to troll you for lack of a better term, and may not even have treasure on board. They may also be doing it to throw you off their true destination as for many of us our time and specific goals are more valuable than whatever treasure we may have on board, so as to not waste time in a battle and to lead them away a trip to the Red or a strategic scuttle is a smart tactic - in that instance I'd say they were the better/smarter player than you (using strategy and tactics over brute force).

It is not your loot until you actually beat the person, take the treasure and turn it in. Otherwise you are just crying because a "lesser" player outsmarted and outplayed you.

For those unfamiliar with the Straw man Fallacy, here is Mister Spock to demonstrate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gVze3BvjZA

@combatxkitty The idea is to pin them so they have nowhere to run, but with this issue, this is difficult when chasing people who have too much pride to let you sink them.
I understand your tactic of letting them get closer and think they are allowed to sell, but for some scenarios this does not work. It works for the Reaper’s Hideout because there is no other place to sell a Reaper Chest or Bounty, but not as much with outposts.
Let’s say the chasing crew is on a galleon and the running one is on a brigantine. If a galleon blockades a few islands, there is nothing stopping the brigantine to go anywhere but with the wind on a run to go to a different outpost. The galleon is only slightly faster with wind. What happens if they are both brigantines? Its mostly the same story, if someone knows how to run, the chaser will stay the same distance the entire time. This goes for most ships, I’ve been doing this since launch and gotten used to most peoples’ tactics. If there was a way to pin someone outside of any outposts, that would be how they win. That used to be what people did, before the runners discovered this exploitative strategy.

Edit: when you have a Reaper’s flag there is no hope to this strategy and the logical solution would be to lower it, but we also want 1 - money, 2 - people who want our flag to come and fight us.

@stayoutofhouse said in Simple Reaper's Bones/PvP changes - loot in red water returns to the map:

@archangel-timmy said in Simple Reaper's Bones/PvP changes - loot in red water returns to the map:

If the loot drifts from Red to Blue, sailing into the Red would be akin to scuttling, giving up, rolling over.

If a player doesn't want to simply roll over, they are then forced to fight or endlessly run. Forcing a player into a scenario they cannot directly handle or simply have no desire to, does not automatically entitle the aggressor to any loot, period.

Fleeing to the shroud is indeed giving up, it should be the equivalent of scuttling. If someone wants to give up completely, my argument suggests the aggressor has won, and therefore, should be rewarded. If someone is under attack, they should only have 3 options, give up, run, or fight. The option ‘destroy your loot’ makes no sense in any way. Presenting players situations that they don’t know how to handle at first are what drives the game. For the runners, these 3 options should be the only ones. The situation that we face is people running into the red water, that is in most cases impossible to deal with, as it is an exploit.

Except it isn't giving up. It is an act of defiance in many cases, others it is pure strategy as I outlined in a few posts above, and sometimes it is just to poke the bear.

Your supposition that "destroy your loot" makes no sense in this game is very false as there are examples of it all over the place. Loot sinks after a specific time, it despawns after a given time, disappears on server merges, and I have had it disappear on powder keg explosions rarely.

Not every encounter needs a victor or reward. This is an example of a no win scenario, a Kobayashi Maru if you will. If someone decides this is the route they want to take, I have no issue with it. You have a problem with it, develop better tactics and strategies so as to not get into the situation where they can flee into the Red. If you force them there and are unable to prevent them from entering, then you deserve nothing for your efforts as you failed to secure the prize. No reason for treasure to be handed up to you on a platter just because you forced them off screen, that takes little skill whereas catching them beforehand does.

@stayoutofhouse Ive done it before. Last time was a couple months ago. Like I said we usually leave people alone but this ship crew was rude to my friend at an outpost she spawned in at and we had nothing better to do so we decided to go after them. We found their ship after they left an island, they ran and we pulled back, they actually felt safe enough to anchor at another island so then we attacked them there. Some people will really let their guard down if you back off.

I get the pinning someone to edge of map but like my tactic it wont always work out and the risk you run is losing it to the red sea How often has this happened to you? I really dont know how big of an issue this is because like I said im not a huge PvP'er in SOT. This has happened to me once that I can remember.

@dlchief58

Your supposition that "destroy your loot" makes no sense in this game is very false as there are examples of it all over the place.

Nowhere else in the game can a player destroy treasure. That leads me to believe that red zone scuttling is an exploit, not a feature.