A Way To Improve Ship Combat

I've gone into this topic hard enough as is, so I am just going to name one of the problems I have with Retractable Ladders. It kills stealth in this game. There is already a mountain of ways to identify players coming aboard, we don't need anymore. We have the ever present mermaids and sound effects announcing a boarder, players don't need anymore help. Nothing breaks stealth more than having to announce my presence with a gunshot every time I want to gain access to a ship.

All this idea does is take away options for alternative ways of sinking ships. Stealth is fun in this game, what little of it that remains should be preserved. What players need is to learn how to protect their ship, not some arbitrary game assist to help their handicaps. Change for the game, don't make the game change for you. Plenty of us out there have zero issues having gun already sighted in on people before they even crest the ladder.

@nabberwar

You bring up an interesting point about stealth, noted. But many things need to change about the current PVP meta, which is broken as hell.

The main issue with the current PVP meta in this game is there is 1 strategy that is almost fool proof and this is how I'm attacked 9 times out of 10.
-Out maneuver or jump a ship to get closer enough to board them, kill them and drop their anchor, then spawn camp them.

PVP'ers do not engage in ship combat at all, it's slow/ineffective and not a guaranteed victory when compared to dropping the enemy anchor and spawn camping them.

Also, the PVP in this game is not balanced AT ALL! It's so one sided. A PVE player has to spend upwards of 1 hour to outfit their ship with cannon balls, wood, and food just to be able to actually PLAY the game. A PVP player just jumps in, sails close to another ship, doesn't fire a cannon ball and boards the ship.

So, a PVP player loads into the game, finds another player and spawn camps them or kills them, blows holes in the ship and sinks the ship before the PVE player can even load back into the game.

A PVE player spent up to 1 hour gearing out their ship, and much more time gathering loot for the PVP player to steal with underhanded tactics.

PVE player is frustrated as hell and has 1-3 hours of time wasted.
PVP player has 10 minutes invested prior to the confruntation.

I haven't even started on the lag and what I expect are exploits in this game.

The solution is to minimize ship boarding because Rare sure doesn't want to change player vs player combat as everything they've added to the game is based on ship vs ship combat. This game is frustrating and a waste of time for anyone who wants to play any of the content in this game. The player vs player PVP ruins it. Hits do not register, guns miss for no reason, players warping around, delayed sound effects of players getting on the ship ladder, players teleporting, jumping around like idiots etc.

@vorc

The main issue with the current PVP meta in this game is there is 1 strategy that is almost fool proof and this is how I'm attacked 9 times out of 10.
-Out maneuver or jump a ship to get closer enough to board them, kill them and drop their anchor, then spawn camp them.

It works on you 9/10 times because, quite frankly, you aren't good. Its fool proof because you are the fool in this scenario. Many crews develop a sense of how to guard from this. You seem to yet have develop it. There is plenty of signs a boarding will happen. If you are letting them get that close your ship positioning is horrid. Learn to watch particular spots that will have prominent boarders. If you trail a ship they can board, if you see/hear a cannon but see no ball its a boarder. Mermaids will always be a sign for people.

So, a PVP player loads into the game, finds another player and spawn camps them or kills them, blows holes in the ship and sinks the ship before the PVE player can even load back into the game.

You act as if you people who engage in PvE are incapable of defending themselves. You seem mistaken, you aren't able, that doesn't mean the rest are.

A PVE player spent up to 1 hour gearing out their ship, and much more time gathering loot for the PVP player to steal with underhanded tactics.

I am sorry but this is nonsense. You talk as if PvP are completely different entities playing different games. What underhanded tactics? We have identical tools at our disposal and we use supplies just as much as you. Do you think we supply our ships? You give the impression you just lie down and take it.

PVE player is frustrated as hell and has 1-3 hours of time wasted.
PVP player has 10 minutes invested prior to the confruntation.

More nonsense, PvP players tend to be smart about cashing it if they take the game seriously. Attackers will drop off loot at opportune times to mitigate there risks. When they attack you, they will always seem like they just PvP, when in reality the just cashed out before ganking you. You just got caught with you pants down. Be smart about it, cash out often and don't gamble what you aren't willing to risk.

The solution is to minimize ship boarding because Rare sure doesn't want to change player vs player combat as everything they've added to the game is based on ship vs ship combat.

The solution is to learn how to defend your ship. Good crews know how to guard ladders, they will have guns trained on you before you even crest to the deck. Why? Because they watch for the signs and act accordingly. They avoid ram boardings with proper positioning, or they simple board them as well. Plenty can be done, you just need to learn those tactics.

This game is frustrating and a waste of time for anyone who wants to play any of the content in this game.

It seems that PvE players are incapable of doing both. PvP players not only deal with the environment, but they also deal with players. I can sink ships and dig loot, its not hard. You just need to learn what to watch out for.

When it comes to hitmarkers, your preaching to the choir, its been begged for since day 1, they even said the fixed it a year ago. Now they appear to be looking at it again, but I won't hold my breath. However, no ones hitmarkers are working either, so its not as if those other players aren't dealing with the same issues as you.

I think they might have removed the sound or its currently bugged, but that still doesn't take away all the visionary clues one can identify a boarder, its mostly learning what times are the most opportune to board and preparing for those moments.

TLDR: PvE players can learn how to defend themselves like the rest of us. Stop using your primary activity as an excuse to justify how bad you are at dealing with what constitutes the other half of the game.

Making such reward with a passive way to defend against boarders needs to be balanced with an increased risk of your crew gets knocked off the ship.

A good idea in this direction is that if ladders are lifted, your crew cannot utilize mermaids until your entire crew are onboard your ship with ladders lowered.

Reward for more easily defending boarding, increases risk if one or more of your crew get tossed from the ship.

@lionofwar learn to listen to the mermaid, learn to listen for the splash when they grab the ladder... ladder defense already has audible sound queues?

If you want retractable ladders, add a grapple hook that can be used to latch on with an audible metal sound that can be cut down... be more obvious sound wise, but less obvious of where you are climbing up?

@bugaboo-bill

Why should the game solely for those seeking pure naval combat? Why shouldn't they learn to actually position properly in naval combat to avoid those people swimming? Why shouldn't they learn to defend 2 predictable spots? Make Boarding a ship maneuvering or cannoneer skill!!! IT ALREADY IS!

Seriously, no style should be solely accommodated and yes people still need to learn to play... it isn't really hard to defend ladders.

Frankly your it are the PVP diehard FPS people that oppose this and that... is starting to get really old. I am not a FPS god, never have been and never will be... yet somehow I can manage to play naval battles all day long if I want. Learn to sail, learn to watch out for those that jump off ships, shoot themselves over and learn to defend the ladder. Grab a blunderbuss and blast them off it really isn't difficult.

#BeMorePirate, learn to play the way you want instead of needing the game to accommodate you.

@doctorfork
For those wondering, I imagine it was this post.

If Sea of Thieves wants to incentivize more ship v ship combat, they would have an easier time encouraging it by making people want to stay on their boat. That being said, if we look at the state of the game since Day 1, being able to sink a ship without actually leaving your ship is so much easier than it was back then. So this idea of Ship v Ship combat not getting love is somewhat untrue. Every new munition type is another step closer to this, especially chain-shot. I'd even argue that Revive has also encouraged people to remain as well, if you die on their ship you can't return to the fight as quick as you would had you died on your own ship with teammates nearby.

If we want a Meta shift, I think we would have an easier time with nerfing Repairs and bucketing. I've been saying this since day 1, it is way to easy to keep a ship afloat. Since bucketing and patching are relatively easy to do, it makes boarding pretty much required to interrupt that process. In my entire career of playing this game, no competent crew I've faced has gone done to cannons alone. So the suggestions I would present are the following

-Buckets haul less water.
-Patching takes longer.
-Water flows faster through holes.

These three simple changes will have drastic effects. Making it so trading fire with a ship has more consequences will make people second guess that boarding attempt. Now boarding and having 1 less person aboard has tangible consequences. This also rewards better ship positioning and aim. Having a better cannon trade is just more rewarding.

@bugaboo-bill a good crew will not let your board either... somehow the only way to board them is by engaging in naval combat first, ensuring that you put enough pressure on and then get a boarder on usually by good cannon shot or amazing maneuvering coupled with cannon fire cover.

Yes boarding is part of the game... pirates boarded ships - you hype on pirate fantasy right... it is part of it, you indicate you want it to be skill based and against a skilled crew that is exactly what is required. Just swim up and grab the ladder, is usually punished with ease if not supported properly by the rest of your crew if we are talking about skilled pirates.

Naval positioning is by far the most important aspect in ship on ship combat with competent people, as that makes sure you can bounce back from nearly any situation... when to engage, when to disengage and all that... you are a helmsman and yet you don't see this? You are the one that keeps the ship safe, places your ship in a position to apply pressure and ensure that it is harder to board...

Personally I expressed my discontent with the revival system, people keep telling me it is a good thing... I am still not convinced.

Btw. if you see people as the kid vs adult as your picture suggests... you missed the point of all pirates are equal, we all have the same tools and stats. Naturally if you have a Pro versus an Amateur you will lose, but they have the same tools and abilities... just not the same skill, talent and practice. There is no skilled match making system, you will meet people that are better than you... welcome to a shared world open multiplayer game.

@lionofwar

Additionally, just because you disagree doesn't mean you have to be curt in the majority of your responses. Especially considering most of them are personal opinions on how a single post of his is supposed to reflect every encounter he has ever had.

My opinion is based off of since Day 1 sailing experience, a foundation built upon almost exclusively ship combat. I find the PvE dull, so I almost exclusively fight people. If all one does is fight ships, they tend to get a good grasp on what works best and how to counter it.

Truthfully, you don't know his skill level.

Most people have their accounts open, so I usually will snoop. If I combine the entirety of all the loot he has obtained, its less than 500. This is pocket change and demonstrates inexperience. Amount of loot turned in is a good indicator on experience.

First, the boarding technique is not rare. It is in fact the most common maneuver I see EVERY PVP'r attempt. This is because it DOES work so often.
Firebomb, Board, Go for anchor while leaping around on a pogo stick. If it doesn't work TRY AGAIN!
^Boring

This strategy screams amateur. Why you may ask? Because it shows what you consider a good strategy. Fire in this game is honestly a joke and if anything more of a nuisance rather than a strategy. One can essentially ignore fire and keep on sailing til they disengage from a fight. If people are that focused on the fire, it demonstrates their inexperience. It takes a fully engulfed ship afire for around 10 minutes before it actually does anything. That is plenty of time to deal with it, taking care of it can be an afterthought.

Especially when a Galleon attempts this on a sloop. And before you respond with the sloop should sail into the wind. Understood, this still means now a Galleon is gating a player or two from playing their game.

When you say things like this, I can't help but think you are one of those PvE types who detest combat. It makes me inclined to believe you are inexperienced to combat. Your instinct is to immediately run, that screams PvE player. No one is gating anyone, fighting is one equal part of the game. No one is gated when people are playing the game in what constitutes as normal play. Sloops are by far some of the easier ships to avoid combat as well as boarding. The ship is great at sharp turns, thus by extension, great at out positioning a boarding attempt. Can't board if the ship positions itself in a way that can't be boarded. Galleons can't turn on dimes, if all you do is turn against wind, you only understand 1 part of what makes the sloop a good ship.

Thirdly, it is a fact that PVP players invest less time to get rewards. Maybe, upon circumstance, this is due to less need of kitting the ship. But in the current version of the game, now that emissaries exist a pvp crew only needs to sign in and check the map to dog a target.

Player ships have the potential to be the biggest threat in the game, stealing from a competent ship is much harder than digging up a chest or pulling it out of a barrel patch. It also can be much more resource intensive considering you are facing thinking creatures that can adapt to a scenario unlike its PvE counterparts. If you are under the mindset that PvP is this profitable way to play this game, it cements on how little you do it in this game. Good crews don't sink easily, they also tend to be smart about how much they hoard. Simple put they don't hoard, so you will most likely never catch them with a haul that is worth the effort. The only people who sink like stones are the bad/inexperienced crews, but they won't have good loot to begin with.

Lastly, this isn't a PVP versus PVE thread. You seem to be a player who enjoys PVP. That is great and I encourage that. Some others are more PVE driven, good on them. The point of this post is to improve the game so not every encounter is limited to which side can drop the others anchor first.

It becomes a PvP versus PvE thread, because the PvE players refuse to learn the other half of the game. Instead of learning how to guard ladders, they would rather the game fix it for them, and considering they lack experience and knowledge in that topic, they have no clue on how bad that idea is in the game. You won't will rarely see your PvP players requesting this feature, because they understand how to defend from it. Its only PvE crowd that will request it, because they refuse to adapt.

TLDR: Don't be rude because you disagree. Especially since most of your responses are opinions motivated by what seems a personal vendetta against PVE gamers.

Truth can hurt sometimes. PvE player tend to have zero grasp on what the META is and how to counter it.

PS: Thank you for the continued discussion on something I genuinely know would improve the game.

I love discussion, I just don't agree with you on this.

@lionofwar

@nabberwar Once again your curt response of "Truth can hurt sometimes." sounds like the response of an elitist. You are making lots of assumptions based on the feedback here. I have provided tactics and the mechanics from the game I have encountered in masse and have seen since before the game was released, only evolved. You can see from my profile that I do in fact have some tenure in the game dating back to the even the beta.

I have already looked at your profile before I started in this thread, you have under 1,000 combined items over a 2+ year span. Meanwhile, my smallest category is almost double your combined total. You started the game early, neat, but you played sparsely over that time-span. Meanwhile, I may have not been in the beta, but I have played significanly more over that span with the numbers to prove it.
Your Loot - 968
My Loot - 6,522

Stop trying to take shots because I ask for an improvement to the game.

I will take shots at subjects I feel are detrimental to the game. Retractable Ladders is a detriment. There is a better approach that won't be a detriment.

It is painfully clear you do not wish to engage in dialogue about the mechanics but rather state someone's inferiority to you.

I have provide a list of alternatives to demonstrate what could be done as an alternative. Its the quote the @doctorfork mentioned early. If you want to change the meta, you solve why people are boarding. You don't just remove something and hope for the best.

The games Player on Player combat is boring.

Hard disagree, ship combat is awesome, especially when you know how to stop boarding. Its a beautiful thing seeing crews adapt, they start breaking out the really cool tactics.

Edit: This will be the last time I engage with you unless you level to me a counter argument that is more than "I'm better than you!"

You are way to focused on one parts of my posts and seem to refuse to actually address the points I'm making. Your posts can be summarized as "You're wrong and stop being a meanie."

@doctorfork

Do you aim down sight? It helps with the spread and distance, hit registration can also play a part. Additionally you can choose to let them come up and blast them at one-shot range for a kill or use the sword, to not have to deal with reload times.

On a sloop take a single step back from hovering over the ladder can also help, additionally this will allow you to step forward and shoot; a big part of the let go and grab is timing, making it harder for them to predict your actions will help prevent them from grabbing it and you should allow you to be able to turn around quick enough to cover both ladders in a pinch in these cases.

@lionofwar you know you can dislodge a harpoon by shooting it?

@doctorfork

Straight up question, looking for advice:

Every time someone boards my ship, I can shoot them on the ladder with a blunder and they do not fall off the ladder. Am I doing something wrong, or are they doing a jump/grab at just the right time?

It can be both. One can still grab ladder even getting shot fully. Blunderbuss isn't really known for its consistency. What I prefer to do instead is wait til they crest to top deck if I have the blundy. They are reaching a point of no return there. If the Blunder doesn't kill them, then the follow slice will most certainly. Most people aren't quick enough to block that initial sword swipe. If you have a partner, I let them shoot and break there grab while I play as back up if he misses.

Additionally, on a sloop, the time to climb a ladder is under two seconds, and from there, it's an additional 1 second to hit the anchor. I literally cannot turn around fast enough to correct this if I hear someone surface and I guessed they came up on the wrong side. Should I be waiting further back, or is defending the ladders really only a viable solution in galleons?

For me, its not about reaction time, you mention the number of seconds, if you are just noticing the boarding attempt right then, its usually too late. My take on things, is learning what is an opportune time to board rather then catching them in the act.

If you are trailing a ship, you can reasonable expect a boarding attempt. So I will usually watch for people. I tend to not be on the wheel all the time, the ship doesn't need constant attention for steering so its fine to let go as long as your path is set. I will usually be at the bow spirit if I am in a duo watching for those plays.

Other moments are rather then listing for the splash, but listening for that cannon then paying attention to that cannon if it has a ball or not. If it has no trail then its a player. Ultimately its key to develop situational awareness and not get distracted with one task. If you are shooting cannons, you should also be watching their cannons for one of those ball-less shots. Also paying attention to their top deck if you are going for a swim/dash board. If you are steering, while you pay attention to your positioning, you should be simultaneously be watching your opponents. A ship parallel to you will have an easy boarding attempt, but one behind you out of dash reach will not. If you know you are within dash boarding reach expect a boarding. Avoid horse-blinders as much as you can, its easier said then done though

If you ever watch those pro-players do those insane reaction plays, most of its due to expecting before it actually happens. Reaction time only plays a partial role, its easier to catch a ball when you know its coming than it is to catch it while unaware.

@lionofwar Maybe for you... it's about avoiding Mario, for me I rejoice when I see Mario jump off and I am in the mood for naval combat... I hope he likes the water levels, because I will try and avoid that mermaid from popping up by sticking near enough, but just out of reach... meaning their ship tends to stick around and never gets that mermaid to pop and leaving them with the choice: Swim away or try and get that board... as I am not to far away.

It is about naval positioning, jump to soon into the water and people that know what they are doing can keep you in limbo.