Kinda worried

  • HiradC
    Lord
    Insider

    To say surprised by safer seas would be an understatement. I think anyone active on here would be after seeing the consistent responses.

    Honestly I don't mind it, after clarifying that no fofs, chests of legends or chest of fortunes on those servers so can't cheese some of those harder earned commendations.

    Its more the principle that worries me as a precedent has been set.
    I respected rare for saying this is the fundamental principle of the game we envision, and while that might not be for everyone this is what we are sticking to.

    Sure with all the current restrictions in place, safer seas isn't worth playing for the majority of the community.
    It's more the message that has been sent. If you keep badgering us we will cave.

    Do you think the people that have pushed for pve will be happy with reduced gold/limited faction rep? Or will now we see the onslaught of demands.

    This is why it's easier to say no outright, because now that a small concession has been made, small adjustments to it are easier to request and demand, and bit by bit the game could change to the point you don't recognise the adventure that you loved.

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  • Gosva5434
    Marauder
    Insider

    That worries me as well and to be completely honest i don't think these people will be satisfied in the long run with the current presented model of Safer Seas. After reading a bunch of youtube and reddit comments regarding the topic something was made crystal clear. The majority of the people cheering for safer seas, were people that never liked the core design of SoT. They never fully understood the PvPvE model or to phrase it more correctly never liked it. That was completely fine in my book until Rare decided to catter to those players needs instead of the people that played the game for what it was. This opens the door for many things to go wrong but i will give a very simple example.

    As far as i understand it Safer Seas is a way to attract new players to the game, but is this the correct way to do it? Imagine someone downloading SoT for the first time without any clue about the game. They choose their pirate and after completing the maiden voyage, they are given the option to join 2 different servers. The most logical thing would be for someone to join Safer Seas as High Seas would seem more like an endgame option at this point. So this new player spends a lot of time playing Safer Seas only to find the grind is abysmally slow, they barely get any gold to unlock cosmetics so chances are unless they quit they will propably try High Seas. We all know what's gonna happen next... They will get sunk, get their loot stolen and won't even know why which leads me to my next point.

    Safer seas create a PvE narrative for newer players and it will make it seem like High Seas is a toxic way of gatekeeping content. I really hope i am wrong on this one, but it won't be too long before we start seeing Reddit posts and forum posts asking for more progression in Safer Seas. One could argue that Rare wouldn't add more progression to those servers since it would make the game essentially PvE, but that is the same thing RARE has been saying for years about PvE servers and yet here we are...

    The majority of people that would enjoy SoT for being a PvPvE sandbox pirate game don't need Safer Seas. An improved tutorial maybe, but it seems this new feature is focused on pleasing a demographic that wouldn't enjoy Sea of Thieves without taking the THIEVES part out of the game.

  • SweetSandMan
    Lord
    Insider

    If nothing else, there's no confidence in Rare sticking with whatever their current or past beliefs for the game are.

    I do think they'll get to a point where they do temporary availability of the High Seas exclusive content on the Safer Seas to encourage players to get into the action. They have those "on/off switches" and I can't imagine they won't use them to extract more play time out of everyone.

    We'll see.

    The seas they are a changin'

  • Lem0n Curry
    Vanguard
    Insider

    IMO the PvE-only people will be complaining of only having "part of the game", they probably will also be complaining when there will be an update that is for Higher Seas only, saying they don't get an update.

    I was ( and still am ) all for having custom servers open for the public without progression where people could learn ( part of ) the game, have fun with races, for multiple crews of parents with children who don't want them exposed to possible toxic behaviour &c - with having a choice of doing only PvE in groups or even PvP with like-minded (and behaving) people (no matter their age). The Safer Seas does nothing for those people unfortunately.

    There will be parents with children enjoying the Safer Seas, sure and probably some new people trying the game out - but I think the majority of the people using it will be those that don't want the PvP in a PvPvE game - and as they're given an inch, they will clamour for more content available to them until Rare caves in again.

    In the november 2022 video they (IIRC Mike) talked about not wanting to take something out (i.e. PvP) without putting something else in - and now they just did that ... Is this only for the introduction trying to silence part of the protesters and will Safer Seas exclusive things be added in the future ?

    I can't & won't defend their position (partially) when they go back and forth on what has been considered "core SoT experience" for more than 5 years.

  • WolfManbush
    Champion

    I think I was just more prepared for safer seas than a lot of long term players because I tend to care more about some stuff and less about other stuff, compared to other long term players.

    When they got rid of overview stats in season 7 and implemented captaincy how they did it was very very obvious to me that long term play was welcome but it was over for long term significance.

    That just prepared me for all the long term significance and design being removed from Captaincy over the last year (and into season 10 apparently)

    It was also very obvious to me that they were changing their wording slightly over time on pve servers.

    I'm pretty used to having a slightly or entirely different take than a lot of other long term players and that's the case here. Safer seas is what it is but they really started removing long term significance the most in season 7 and just continued that. Captaincy was supposed to be something very long term, story telling, a real grind and it's just not anymore.

    As they are saying now, it's a live service game and it's gonna change how they see fit, and I have no grudges over it. I'm gonna finish out 9 strong as I said I would from the beginning. Making the best out of it. Play the end of Monkey Island. Encourage players and new players where I can. I'm not worried for the game, it'll be alright wherever it goes. Everything is gonna be alright for people in season 10, just takes time for it to settle. I view it as I had my time and it was quite a time.

  • D3ADST1CK
    Vanguard
    Insider
    Founder

    I think safer seas as announced is fine. It can provide a bridge for new players while not being enticing enough for others that would draw them away and alter the feel of the high seas.

    I'm not sure I have much confidence in Rare sticking to their word on any statements though. They've done this several times that it can no longer be called an outlier. It's a pattern now.

  • heslashthem
    Legend
    Insider

    @hiradc this is completely valid tbf because I have seen some people, on here too, just frankly admit that it doesn’t matter what Rare say about their stance, “no” is no longer believed.

    I mean, what kind of thinking is that that you’re so determined in thinking you’re right, now that Rare have adjusted one part they took a firm stance against, you believe they’ll just bend on everything else if you complain for long enough?

    I knew this change was going to bring out some of the worst in people but I didn’t think the entitlement and ego was that bad. Gees.

  • PithyRumble
    Rogue
    Insider

    Might as well bring back arena, achievements, cosmetics and all that now. Lol.
    Hope they "reconsider" hg scoring and give more loser rep...

    Genuinely...things are back on the forums menu boys.

  • HiradC
    Lord
    Insider

    @pithyrumble ironically arena is a good point, not that I'm saying it should be back but their 'lesson learned' was not to have a separate mode, that required dev resource to maintain, was different to normal adventure, and the comparable playtime that its used is so low so they have to get rid of it. This mode could be the exact same thing

  • WolfManbush
    Champion

    @hiradc said in Kinda worried:

    @pithyrumble ironically arena is a good point, not that I'm saying it should be back but their 'lesson learned' was not to have a separate mode, that required dev resource to maintain, was different to normal adventure, and the comparable playtime that its used is so low so they have to get rid of it. This mode could be the exact same thing

    it really just boils down to will they stay consistent on intent, an area where many have lost confidence

    If it stays as it is designed it has huge potential to serve the people it is for, while doing the least damage it can do.

    If it changes into more rewards/features it still serves the intended people but then it changes to the most damage

    The real benefit is giving people an option to play the game however long they want without intensity for minimal reward. This can do all sorts of good for long term use or short term use.

    I truly hope this mode as designed lasts a year+ without more rewards/progress. So many times they have started out with content and changes that have so much long term potential but then it goes back to the short term numbers/activity dramatic changes.

  • BurnBacon
    Vanguard
    Insider

    Do you think the people that have pushed for pve will be happy with reduced gold/limited faction rep? Or will now we see the onslaught of demands.

    First few months everyone will be "fine" After a few new addsons, new features and such that are locked/blocked from Safer Seas....they will come out asking to have them added. Like the Emissary flags & FotD
    After all...We are suppose to be "Equal on the seas"

  • Foambreaker
    Sailor

    @sweetsandman "If nothing else, there's no confidence in Rare sticking with whatever their current or past beliefs for the game are."

    So taking feedback and making changes is a loss of credibility?

    They should just close the forums and not listen to players anymore.

    What's the point if they take feedback and then get attacked for doing it?

    Joke. Seriously, JOKE.

  • WolfManbush
    Champion

    @foambreaker said in Kinda worried:

    @sweetsandman "If nothing else, there's no confidence in Rare sticking with whatever their current or past beliefs for the game are."

    So taking feedback and making changes is a loss of credibility?

    They should just close the forums and not listen to players anymore.

    What's the point if they take feedback and then get attacked for doing it?

    Joke. Seriously, JOKE.

    Confidence isn't the same as credibility

    One would have to ignore history and intentions of season 10 to claim confidence in messaging at this point

    Credibility on the other hand, I don't think they are malicious in messaging, just inconsistent.

    A person would be setting themselves up for trouble by investing in content for stated intent. If people get involved in grinds and content etc it's important for them to know the consistency/inconsistency before they invest. Enjoy the game, the content, but significance/intent is not guaranteed no matter how it's advertised.

    The concern for long term players that intend to invest in season 10 and beyond is quite justified and valid imo.

    Their current messaging is that it is a live service game and can and will change, this is the accurate info people should use in decision making. Things can and will change no matter what the no/yes is of the time.

    What I think is fair to point out is that Rare is a company that keeps really really quiet on things. Personally I think a part of that is to try to not constantly end up in the situation they are currently in, I think they do at least somewhat try to avoid messaging that will turn out to be setting themselves up for this. So, when people are always demanding/requesting some sort of statement on something I hope people keep that in mind.

  • Foambreaker
    Sailor

    @wolfmanbush Rare took feedback, feedback some players didn't agree with.

    The rest is whining and nit picking.

    Seriously, the word that comes to mind in 90% of the posts in the last few days: Tissue?

  • WolfManbush
    Champion

    @foambreaker said in Kinda worried:

    @wolfmanbush Rare took feedback, feedback some players didn't agree with.

    The rest is whining and nit picking.

    Seriously, the word that comes to mind in 90% of the posts in the last few days: Tissue?

    You are cherry picking feedback while praising/criticizing the feedback process

    The point of safer seas as it stands is to get people from the safe seas to the high seas. They will one day be the veteran players and they will have many of these same concerns.

  • Foambreaker
    Sailor

    @wolfmanbush said in Kinda worried:

    @foambreaker said in Kinda worried:

    @wolfmanbush Rare took feedback, feedback some players didn't agree with.

    The rest is whining and nit picking.

    Seriously, the word that comes to mind in 90% of the posts in the last few days: Tissue?

    You are cherry picking feedback while praising/criticizing the feedback process

    The point of safer seas as it stands is to get people from the safe seas to the high seas. They will one day be the veteran players and they will have many of these same concerns.

    What concerns? What concerns that don't have to do with Rare changing their mind but instead have to do with the actual content?

  • WolfManbush
    Champion

    @foambreaker said in Kinda worried:

    @wolfmanbush said in Kinda worried:

    @foambreaker said in Kinda worried:

    @wolfmanbush Rare took feedback, feedback some players didn't agree with.

    The rest is whining and nit picking.

    Seriously, the word that comes to mind in 90% of the posts in the last few days: Tissue?

    You are cherry picking feedback while praising/criticizing the feedback process

    The point of safer seas as it stands is to get people from the safe seas to the high seas. They will one day be the veteran players and they will have many of these same concerns.

    What concerns? What concerns that don't have to do with Rare changing their mind but instead have to do with the actual content?

    All content is marketed with purpose being a part of the marketing. A reason to invest, often times in a game like this (and specifically how Rare has operated) is implementing status and accomplishment into the appeal.

    People did what was advertised to them. Can't fault people for caring about that.

  • NeedSmokes
    Commander

    Safer seas will work for a little while. But once everyone in there wants to try the content not in there and have to join high seas to do so, they'll bump into the same players that sent them there to begin with and just put the game down again.
    Might aswell just add EVERYTHING into safer seas now and let players enjoy it all.

    Rare: Your content creators have all already jumped ship to other games, and if people start to follow them on those games, they won't be back.
    Finally stop this desire to have a game on Twitch that barely anyone watches and aim for a game people play instead.

  • WolfManbush
    Champion

    @needsmokes said in Kinda worried:

    Safer seas will work for a little while. But once everyone in there wants to try the content not in there and have to join high seas to do so, they'll bump into the same players that sent them there to begin with and just put the game down again.
    Might aswell just add EVERYTHING into safer seas now and let players enjoy it all.

    Rare: Your content creators have all already jumped ship to other games, and if people start to follow them on those games, they won't be back.
    Finally stop this desire to have a game on Twitch that barely anyone watches and aim for a game people play instead.

    This game 100% survives even without any current player content creation. Content creation has put far more strain on the organic environment through meta gaming than it has built anything up organically.

    Playing the numbers game on twitch is part of the space and and the influencer space is unbelievably over saturated, if creators leave and there is an actual opening for growth on channels it will be filled.

    We don't know exactly how safer sea will have an overall effect over time because most of this game's history is getting people run out of here by mass coordination from largely content creation communities. Whether that is streaming or videos or just engagement/status farming on socials.

    As designed it's almost impossible for safer seas to have more of a negative effect than status chasing meta gaming has done over the years. Largely fueled by player content creation and Rare being so buddy buddy in that situation.

  • SweetSandMan
    Lord
    Insider

    @foambreaker said in Kinda worried:

    @sweetsandman "If nothing else, there's no confidence in Rare sticking with whatever their current or past beliefs for the game are."

    So taking feedback and making changes is a loss of credibility?

    They should just close the forums and not listen to players anymore.

    What's the point if they take feedback and then get attacked for doing it?

    Joke. Seriously, JOKE.

    At no point did I say that it didn't give them credibility for listening to their community (to an extent). They've always been pretty good about doing that and then giving us half-baked solutions (ie Captaincy, Hourglass and Safer Seas).

    What I did say is I have no confidence that they will stick to what they say. They've shut down PvE threads for years. They've had their deckhands deliver their message. They've done podcasts and videos about how the heart of this game and what they designed is a PvPvE social experiment...then they waffle almost certainly for financial reasons...and understanding business, I respect that...but at the same time, I have no confidence that they'll stay true to what they say, for obvious reasons.

  • JESTER1027
    Master
    Insider

    @foambreaker said in Kinda worried:

    @wolfmanbush Rare took feedback, feedback some players didn't agree with.

    The rest is whining and nit picking.

    Seriously, the word that comes to mind in 90% of the posts in the last few days: Tissue?

    It IS a question of credibility. Your word is very important. If you're going to say one thing and do another, it causes people to question whether they can trust you. For years, Rare made it known that PVE servers went against the core design of this game. Even dropping anchors and threatening to remove people from the forum for repeatedly asking. Then all of a sudden, they decide to reverse course. I understand that it's Rare's game and they can run it as they see fit. The issue is that Rare has a track record of going back on their decisions. They publicly came out and told the community that PVE servers would not be implemented in this game, but here we are. I'm going to start petitioning Rare for the return of Arena servers, the Ferryman set and the Black Dog set. I don't want to hear any whining about it either. Nothing is set in stone with Rare. Which this whole situation just proved. Someday Rare is going to make a decision that you don't agree with, and on that day, I'll probably be there to hand you a tissue. Have a good day.

  • Foambreaker
    Sailor

    @jester1027 "It IS a question of credibility."

    Just lol. Seriously?

    That would mean that they cannot change the game because any change is "going back" on a previous design commitment.

    This is what I meant by nit picking.

    Do you have any feedback on the actual feature?

  • WolfManbush
    Champion

    @jester1027 said in Kinda worried:

    @foambreaker said in Kinda worried:

    @wolfmanbush Rare took feedback, feedback some players didn't agree with.

    The rest is whining and nit picking.

    Seriously, the word that comes to mind in 90% of the posts in the last few days: Tissue?

    It IS a question of credibility. Your word is very important. If you're going to say one thing and do another, it causes people to question whether they can trust you. For years, Rare made it known that PVE servers went against the core design of this game. Even dropping anchors and threatening to remove people from the forum for repeatedly asking. Then all of a sudden, they decide to reverse course. I understand that it's Rare's game and they can run it as they see fit. The issue is that Rare has a track record of going back on their decisions. They publicly came out and told the community that PVE servers would not be implemented in this game, but here we are. I'm going to start petitioning Rare for the return of Arena servers, the Ferryman set and the Black Dog set. I don't want to hear any whining about it either. Nothing is set in stone with Rare. Which this whole situation just proved. Someday Rare is going to make a decision that you don't agree with, and on that day, I'll probably be there to hand you a tissue. Have a good day.

    I think life is more complex than this

    I'm not cool with the high level cheesing that's been so enabled in risk/reward (not the little fish eating, no issue for me there). I'm not cool with the year of just wrecking the significance out of Captaincy. I'm not cool with the overview stat thing even though they obviously still collect the data. There is a lot of intent changing in here.

    but that doesn't mean they lost credibility imo
    my confidence in messaging/intent? yeah but not credibility

    I think they did their best and my style wasn't sustainable because less and less do it. If more enjoyed the game how I do it would have lasted, that's not on anyone, it's just a reality of the environment.

    I feel like credibility is too far for what this is and what happened. We are all just doing our best here and for some of us it's become unsustainable while others have so many incredible adventures ahead of them here.

    That's just how I feel about it. Some of us losing is better than all of us losing if that's what is happening here imo.

  • AxecaliburTV
    Master
    Insider

    @jester1027

    When Arena was removed, they argued that instanced seperate modes are more work bugfixing and patching. putting the PvP mode into normal adventure was the solution. since this argument seems invalid now...

    Naval warfare in SoT does not do well with server performance in PvE servers. Arena had instanced servers without anything but one single chest and 5 ships battling. Server performance was godlike compared to right now. My hopes increase that a dedicated / instanced PvP mode comes back as well as custom servers dedicated for their communities.

  • JESTER1027
    Master
    Insider

    @foambreaker said in Kinda worried:

    @jester1027 "It IS a question of credibility."

    Just lol. Seriously?

    That would mean that they cannot change the game because any change is "going back" on a previous design commitment.

    This is what I meant by nit picking.

    Do you have any feedback on the actual feature?

    I fail to see how this would be considered a nitpick. Changes are always welcome. The entire community has been begging for changes to the main game. My comment wasn't about change, but a failure in communication and trust. Just going off your profile, you've been a part of this community for a year. I've watched this type of wishy-washy decision making for four years. It's just frustrating is all.

  • EVA1977
    Captain
    Insider

    There is a small amount of players that are very much against change in games they play. They are so against it that even when it's beneficial to them they rant about it as if it were the end of the world.
    Let alone a change they are against. They rage with passion as if immitating a sketch from the AVGN and then more.
    Why do i say this? because there is no reasoning with them and SOT has it's fair share of these players.
    So i regularly prefer to side with developers and their decisions. That if they believe it is a good idea, then let time decide and not flat out refuse change because even small changes are a lot of work. So for me it's insulting to the hard work developers do that some players think they are just sitting around cashing in, making changes while being clueless on what the community wants or trying to make things bad on purpose for others. Because that is not true especially not in SOT.

  • JESTER1027
    Master
    Insider

    @eva1977 said in Kinda worried:

    There is a small amount of players that are very much against change in games they play. They are so against it that even when it's beneficial to them they rant about it as if it were the end of the world.
    Let alone a change they are against. They rage with passion as if immitating a sketch from the AVGN and then more.
    Why do i say this? because there is no reasoning with them and SOT has it's fair share of these players.
    So i regularly prefer to side with developers and their decisions. That if they believe it is a good idea, then let time decide and not flat out refuse change because even small changes are a lot of work. So for me it's insulting to the hard work developers do that some players think they are just sitting around cashing in, making changes while being clueless on what the community wants or trying to make things bad on purpose for others. Because that is not true especially not in SOT.

    I understand where you're coming from, but I wouldn't say that people are against change. You brought up AVGN, like James Rolfe, I grew up with NES games. You were forced to get better with those games. People want everything handed to them these days. I always love running into new players in this game. I know there are people out there who stomp on every ship they come across, but that's not my crew. We always try to help newer crews and usually we end up giving them the loot we have on us.

  • Dragotech123
    Commander
    Insider
    Founder

    I don't know why people are extremely shocked about safer seas. The game was supposed to have horizontal progression, something where newer players can have access to all the things that veterans could have. Then we got some changes, now people with more gold could afford buying supplies from the merchants while the newer players are still trying to mass theor first fortune. Then captaincy where the Sovereigns can take all the loot includomg hunter call's food, which makes less time consuming compared to someone on a normal ship. Then we found that some players who had the hourglass levels for Servants at 100 and Reapers at 75 could have access to a unique place on the map and people were hiding FotD keys, FoF keys or anything and players without access to the Reaper's lair could not retrieve stuff from there. Don't forget that players above level 15 can get money and reputation faster with emmisaries compared to what players below that level can get. Or players with Tall Tale checkpoints being able to open portals to the Sea of the Damned and server hop or go to the Shores of Gold where other players without that checkpoint can't reach.

    We already had changes where players can get advantages over other players, the differences between players are not cosmetic anymore. And that happened long before the announcement of safer seas.

    I don't get why is it now that people claim that Rare lost credibility when at the beginning they said that progression would always be horizontal with no advantages and that was changed a long time ago.

  • Foambreaker
    Sailor

    @jester1027 said in Kinda worried:

    @foambreaker said in Kinda worried:

    @jester1027 "It IS a question of credibility."

    Just lol. Seriously?

    That would mean that they cannot change the game because any change is "going back" on a previous design commitment.

    This is what I meant by nit picking.

    Do you have any feedback on the actual feature?

    I fail to see how this would be considered a nitpick. Changes are always welcome. The entire community has been begging for changes to the main game. My comment wasn't about change, but a failure in communication and trust. Just going off your profile, you've been a part of this community for a year. I've watched this type of wishy-washy decision making for four years. It's just frustrating is all.

    So the feature is ok, you just don't trust them for changing a game they are paid to change?

  • HiradC
    Lord
    Insider

    @foambreaker the people claiming this as a victory aren't the ones this has been aimed at, which makes me think they'll either be frustrated when they realise how little they get or they will be demanding its tweaked further.

    It doesn't affect me personally that much. If I realise players are super new then I tend to leave them alone as I'm conscious you could gatekeep this game into oblivion

  • WolfManbush
    Champion

    @hiradc said in Kinda worried:

    @foambreaker the people claiming this as a victory aren't the ones this has been aimed at, which makes me think they'll either be frustrated when they realise how little they get or they will be demanding its tweaked further.

    It doesn't affect me personally that much. If I realise players are super new then I tend to leave them alone as I'm conscious you could gatekeep this game into oblivion

    Even though I am vocal about lack on confidence in messaging I still think they intend for this to work as designed. I genuinely think they are trying to get people into the high seas and keep them there longer than they stay now.

    They might have side quests going on like hitting quotas for logins and all that stuff they do on the business end but I think they want this to work as it's designed and I think they will do everything they reasonably can to hold off on those reward buffs.

    This is not gonna be perfect, there are gonna be rough patches throughout and likely decisions made here and there that are gonna be frustrating to observe for some veteran players but this has potential and I think the devs have their hearts and minds on target for its success as a bridge to high seas.

    I think season 10 in general has a lot of potential for a lot of players of different styles.

  • PurpleFiftyTwo
    Champion
    Insider

    @wolfmanbush said in Kinda worried:

    but that doesn't mean they lost credibility imo
    my confidence in messaging/intent? yeah but not credibility

    It's good that they haven't lost credibility with you. But unfortunately that's just you. If people are saying it, then it's clearly true: they have lost credibility with those people.

  • heslashthem
    Legend
    Insider

    @purplefiftytwo those people will either quit playing, forget about it in a few months, or not let it damage them playing the game.
    Even then, there’s likely a handful of people taking it so personally anyway that Rare won’t care if they’re gone. If they’re that insulted about the change then maybe them not playing is healthier for everyone else on their crew or who they meet?…

  • WolfManbush
    Champion

    @purplefiftytwo said in Kinda worried:

    @wolfmanbush said in Kinda worried:

    but that doesn't mean they lost credibility imo
    my confidence in messaging/intent? yeah but not credibility

    It's good that they haven't lost credibility with you. But unfortunately that's just you. If people are saying it, then it's clearly true: they have lost credibility with those people.

    There is no going back. In an effort to keep the game going they are heading in a much more casual direction. That was always going to happen. They will continue to lean into the casual experience until they close up shop. They are in a space where many don't even last this long.

    People are certainly free to say that Rare has lost credibility in their view but we all make compromises sometimes when it's necessary. Sometimes what we try to do and intend to do no longer is sustainable. That's not really a flaw in credibility that's just survival.

    They still have a lot of people that enjoy this experience and will continue to enjoy it as they try to keep more here. This is not a perfect process but it is one that is keeping the experience alive in a tough environment.

    Judgement of what is done is easy, it's difficult to keep things going, that every day grind to stay afloat.

  • PurpleFiftyTwo
    Champion
    Insider

    @tesiccl @WolfManbush Non sequiturs. My point stands.

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