Hi I’ve noticed that with a sword the stun can take away abilities to eat shoot or switch weapons why is that?
It also seems that the gun has no stun at all.
Sword spam
@zer0remix83 said in Sword spam:
Hi I’ve noticed that with a sword the stun can take away abilities to eat shoot or switch weapons why is that?
It also seems that the gun has no stun at all.Okay, let me straighten this out for you 1st - stun and sword spam are 2 completely different things. You are blaming the stun on the spam when the 2 have nothing to do with each other - this is obvious because it can take only 1 attack to stun you.
In other words, your issue is with the stun, not the spam.
Also, spam is a made-up buzz word that pirates who lack defense like to use. In reality, you get 3 attacks before there's a brief delay or cooldown - this alone makes spam impossible as it gives the opposing pirate an opportunity to block, counter, dodge, run, shoot, etc.
Now, on to your real issue - stun. In my personal experience, stun is a very real thing, but a bit unpredictable (possibly due to servers, networking issues, hit reg, positioning - I never quite figured it out). Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Other times it's significant stun and other times, it doesn't stun you much at all. An example of this is when you stated that you can't shoot while stunned; I have been able to do exactly that while stunned - it isn't easy, but it's absolutely doable. Also, fun fact - if you have a sword, you can use it to break your stun by blocking and then dodging out of the way. I think this works because the stun is a means of forcing, or teaching, you to go into defense mode. Firearms don't have to go I to defense mode because they like to play the keepam-away game.
Spam to me is when 2 pirates go at each other with swords and attack, attack, attack ad nauseum without ever defending. That's the real spam and travesty.
Finally, adding stun to the firearms would be incredibly broken due to their advantage at range. It would easily allow for a follow-up shot and guaranteed kill. For the reasons I mentioned above, stun in melee isn't always a guarantee.
brief delay or cooldown - this alone makes spam impossible as it gives the opposing pirate an opportunity to block, counter, dodge, run, shoot, etc.
Brief and negligible, especially while your opponent is stunned. There's also a "brief" penalty after missing that should really be increased. Buzzword or not, it's simply too easy to repeatedly attack and stun your opponent through blocks and their combos.
Now, on to your real issue - stun. In my personal experience, stun is a very real thing, but a bit unpredictable (possibly due to servers, networking issues, hit reg, positioning - I never quite figured it out).
Yes.
Spam to me is when 2 pirates go at each other with swords and attack, attack, attack ad nauseum without ever defending. That's the real spam and travesty.
You just described current sword meta.
Opponent running towards you? Attack, attack, attack.
Opponent running away from you? Move forward and attack, attack, attack. Hope to backtrack.
Opponent initiating an attack? Attack, attack, attack through their combo.
Opponent blocking? Attack, attack, attack through their block.
Opponent dodging through you? Attack, attack, attack and stun them as they pass.Finally, adding stun to the firearms would be incredibly broken due to their advantage at range. It would easily allow for a follow-up shot and guaranteed kill. For the reasons I mentioned above, stun in melee isn't always a guarantee.
Let's say Rare did miraculously fix hitreg and the stun was always a guarantee, wouldn't the brief delay make killing a stunned opponent pretty much a "guaranteed kill"?
For this reason, I don't think any weapon should have a stun.
@theblackbellamy said in Sword spam:
You just described current sword meta.
Opponent running towards you? Attack, attack, attack.
Opponent running away from you? Move forward and attack, attack, attack. Hope to backtrack.
Opponent initiating an attack? Attack, attack, attack through their combo.
Opponent blocking? Attack, attack, attack through their block.
Opponent dodging through you? Attack, attack, attack and stun them as they pass.This sounds like you've never picked up a sword. Why no blocking, lunging or hopping?
@mferr11 said in Sword spam:
@theblackbellamy said in Sword spam:
You just described current sword meta.
Opponent running towards you? Attack, attack, attack.
Opponent running away from you? Move forward and attack, attack, attack. Hope to backtrack.
Opponent initiating an attack? Attack, attack, attack through their combo.
Opponent blocking? Attack, attack, attack through their block.
Opponent dodging through you? Attack, attack, attack and stun them as they pass.This sounds like you've never picked up a sword. Why no blocking, lunging or hopping?
You hop to attack through their block, because there is no defense against it.
Blocking is useless, see point one.
Lunging is easily dodge-able.His point is hit reg with swords is so laughable right now, it is better to just spam M1 and hope the server decided that you hit first AND activate stun on your opponent. It really is RNG right now. I have been in the position many times where I clearly struck first yet get slashed back, yet can still strike again, only to get slashed back again. Then out of the blue, oh look I am stunned and die to the next two slashes in short order because block failed.
@theblackbellamy said in Sword spam:
brief delay or cooldown - this alone makes spam impossible as it gives the opposing pirate an opportunity to block, counter, dodge, run, shoot, etc.
Brief and negligible,
Brief yes; negligible no.
especially while your opponent is stunned.
Situational.
There's also a "brief" penalty after missing that should really be increased.
It's already good enough because it allows you enough time to counter.
Buzzword or not, it's simply too easy to repeatedly attack
That's intentional and by design.
and stun your opponent through blocks and their combos.
Blocks no; combos yes.
You just described current sword meta.
You think comboing the sword over and over again is the meta?
🤣
No. Meta implies an effective strategy, which this is not - it's easily circumvented by an effective defensive combination of blocking, moving, and dodging.
Opponent running towards you? Attack, attack, attack.
Opponent running away from you? Move forward and attack, attack, attack. Hope to backtrack.That's not strategy - that's what gets you killed.
Opponent initiating an attack? Attack, attack, attack through their combo.
No, because their attack nullifies yours if they hit you first - even if your swing connects, they will take no damage. This is precisely why trading doesn't work.
Opponent blocking? Attack, attack, attack through their block.
Simply attacking doesn't get past their block and never will except for hit-reg. You have to strafe and circle and flank their block while you attack - that is key.
Opponent dodging through you? Attack, attack, attack and stun them as they pass.
Except it won't stun them, and you'll leave yourself open as you continue your combo instead of blocking.
Finally, adding stun to the firearms would be incredibly broken due to their advantage at range. It would easily allow for a follow-up shot and guaranteed kill. For the reasons I mentioned above, stun in melee isn't always a guarantee.
Let's say Rare did miraculously fix hitreg and the stun was always a guarantee, wouldn't the brief delay make killing a stunned opponent pretty much a "guaranteed kill"?
Yes, but that's exactly why stun isn't always 100%.
For this reason, I don't think any weapon should have a stun.
I agree that no weapon should have stun.
@theblackbellamy said:
This sounds like you've never picked up a sword. Why no blocking, lunging or hopping?If you thought I was implying that this is how I use the sword, then apologies for the confusion.
I was trying to point out that it is too easy to strike through blocks & counter-attacks. I make use of lunges in combat enough to know that they have also suffered hitreg issues in recent updates. So why bother with those? And you can hop all you want, even through the opponent; but if the opponent is spamming an attack, you will get hit.
I've been a proponent of either returning the sword back to its older mechanics, or adding complexity of a striking/parrying system that would increase the skill gap. I want the sword to be as useful as its user. What we currently have is a clunky minecraft sword with delayed animations, in which the best strategy is to rush your opponent, stun and noodle them to death.
Opponent dodging through you? Attack, attack, attack and stun them as they pass.
Except it won't stun them, and you'll leave yourself open as you continue your combo instead of blocking.
Oh yes it will stun them. Allowing you to start a new combo while they're "briefly" locked during your "brief" delay.
I've invited you in the past to join me to test some of your claims about the sword. My best friend sets up alliance ships, and you'd be more than welcome to jump in for a session. This isn't some competitive 1v1 challenge either, just some fun PvP practice and testing. So no need to get defensive and dodge (pardon the pun). You never replied before, but the offer is still on the table.
...I don't think any weapon should have a stun.
I agree that no weapon should have stun.
Well we can agree to disagree on everything up until that.
@comrade-molly said in Sword spam:
For the last time Geek, "Sword Spam" isn't about just repeated sword strikes, it's about people who just spam it, connecting with nothing, with no penalty for missing. It's not made up, and they should reintroduce the brief time penalty for swinging and missing.
There is a penalty for missing though - it hasn't gone anywhere. There's a longer delay when missing an attack that is comparable to the end of a combo. It's easy to see the difference in delay between a successful versus a missed strike too. The former allows for an immediate follow-up attack while the latter forces you to wait for about 1-1.5 seconds before you can attack again.
@theblackbellamy said in Sword spam:
@theblackbellamy said:
This sounds like you've never picked up a sword. Why no blocking, lunging or hopping?If you thought I was implying that this is how I use the sword, then apologies for the confusion.
I was trying to point out that it is too easy to strike through blocks & counter-attacks.
It's only easy because the majority of pirates are ignorant regarding defense or are too young to simply understand. Furthermore, its ease of use traps people into sticking with what they think works (until it doesn't - then they complain).
I make use of lunges in combat enough to know that they have also suffered hitreg issues in recent updates. So why bother with those?
I never use lunges because the delay is so bad on a miss as to not make it worth it. If I ever do decide to use it, it will only ever be against the unaware. Hit reg just overcomplicates matters.
Also while I never use it personally, the advanced lunge could be a useful escape if you know your opponent lacks an eye of reach or is terrible with their flintlock aim.
And you can hop all you want, even through the opponent; but if the opponent is spamming an attack, you will get hit.
This is true, but even if you get hit, it's not really all that important if it gets you into a more favorable position where you can get 2 hits in on them. It only really matters if that 1 hit will be the killing blow, which it usually isn't.
I've been a proponent of either returning the sword back to its older mechanics, or adding complexity of a striking/parrying system that would increase the skill gap.
I'd rather educate the community by teaching them proper swordplay and helping them break bad habits - get them to actually think about what they're doing, and can do, rather than just "stick them with the pointy end!"
I want the sword to be as useful as its user.
It's a tool; it's only as useful as its wielder. If they're not using the tool to its fullest extent, how can they be considered experienced, much less proficient? It's like only using a hammer to smash the nail in, but then not using the opposite end to pry the nail back out...
What we currently have is a clunky minecraft sword with delayed animations, in which the best strategy is to rush your opponent, stun and noodle them to death.
You can't dodge with a Minecraft sword, or even charge (in Bedrock); also enemies don't typically get out of the way either - this is actually a good analogy, but not in how you might think: pirates be fighting like MC Steve when they don't have to.
Opponent dodging through you? Attack, attack, attack and stun them as they pass.
I did not say this; fix your quotes.
Except it won't stun them, and you'll leave yourself open as you continue your combo instead of blocking.
That's better.
Oh yes it will stun them. Allowing you to start a new combo while they're "briefly" locked during your "brief" delay.
Correction: it MIGHT stun them - I believe it might depend on the severity of the hit. Did you hit them on the tail-end of the dodge with a glancing blow or at the beginning with a meaty hit, for example? This will require testing.
I've invited you in the past to join me to test some of your claims about the sword. My best friend sets up alliance ships, and you'd be more than welcome to jump in for a session. This isn't some competitive 1v1 challenge either, just some fun PvP practice and testing. So no need to get defensive and dodge (pardon the pun). You never replied before, but the offer is still on the table.
And I would still like to participate, but timing is an issue as my schedule has been constantly shifting due to new job opportunities. For this to work, we'd have to set up a concrete time that works for both of us, and then actually commit to it.
Also, when we do, I will be testing a lot of things, including attack delays, blocking effectiveness, stun effectiveness, and yes, even dodging's effectiveness effectiveness.
...I don't think any weapon should have a stun.*
I agree that no weapon should have stun.
Well we can agree to disagree on everything up until that.
Until we meet upon the Sea, at least. 😅
@galactic-geek said in Sword spam:
@comrade-molly said in Sword spam:
For the last time Geek, "Sword Spam" isn't about just repeated sword strikes, it's about people who just spam it, connecting with nothing, with no penalty for missing. It's not made up, and they should reintroduce the brief time penalty for swinging and missing.
There is a penalty for missing though - it hasn't gone anywhere. There's a longer delay when missing an attack that is comparable to the end of a combo. It's easy to see the difference in delay between a successful versus a missed strike too. The former allows for an immediate follow-up attack while the latter forces you to wait for about 1-1.5 seconds before you can attack again.
It's slower than the combo, but it's not a real punishment (and it's certainly not "1-1.5 seconds", it's half a second at best). People can still just hold W and spam M1 until they connect, compared to if you miss with a gun, having to go through a complete reload animation. When people complain about sword spam, we're complaining about that; holding W and spamming M1 should not be the winning strategy for sword users (it currently wins even 50% of the time against other sword users because of how poorly block works), and should have drawbacks, by either breaking your sprint for the duration of the missed swing, or reintroducing the old delay for not hitting anything (including the "hit anything" mechanic that used to exist, where if you knew you would miss your sword swing, you hit a barrel or a wall to circumvent it).
You live in an absolute fantasy world where you believe sword is skillfull, and the entire top tier of playerbase disagrees with you. Stop being willfully ignorant.
@comrade-molly In addition to the delay, you're also forgetting about the animation delay - what fighting game enthusiasts call startup frames - that is to say, the frames per second from the start of an animation up to where it actually connects. This animation delay, along with the actual delay is where the 1-1.5 seconds comes from. Regardless of how much delay there is, there's still just enough time to react with a block, dodge, or counter.
Also, don't tell someone who uses facts, evidence, and data that they live in a fantasy world - it's disengenuious.
@galactic-geek said in Sword spam:
@comrade-molly In addition to the delay, you're also forgetting about the animation delay - what fighting game enthusiasts call startup frames - that is to say, the frames per second from the start of an animation up to where it actually connects. This animation delay, along with the actual delay is where the 1-1.5 seconds comes from. Regardless of how much delay there is, there's still just enough time to react with a block, dodge, or counter.
Also, don't tell someone who uses facts, evidence, and data that they live in a fantasy world - it's disengenuious.
So you're including the timing of the swing in your calculations for the purpose of lying about the time penalty between missed swings, but not acknowledging it still exists regarding connecting a full combo.
You're the disingenuous one lol get out of here with your nonsense.
You can still hold down W and spam M1 mindlessly chasing someone and connect when you shouldn't due to server lag (and there's always server lag because the game servers are terrible), and it's inescapable.
You just refuse to ever acknowledge well known problems with the sword because you like those problems.
@comrade-molly I have actually done time tests on this. From hitting the environment anyway, it is 1.1 seconds from miss to miss hitting something other than PvE or a player. If you look at DPS of all the weapons over a 20 second period (the time it takes for all guns to be out of ammo) the sword would be much better balanced with a 1.5 second miss time period. @Galactic-Geek and others seem to think that .4 seconds on a miss more will make the sword feel "clunky" though. Personally, I would say just don't miss your swings like they always tell eye of reach users to do?
@comrade-molly You have to isolate/separate the timing of the sword swings from the server issues. 1 does not affect the other's timing - only whether it hits or not (only then might it affect how long it takes for you to attack with your next swing).
In an experiment, you can't have variables, otherwise, it won't be a proper experiment.
@kommodoreyenser said in Sword spam:
@comrade-molly I have actually done time tests on this. From hitting the environment anyway, it is 1.1 seconds from miss to miss hitting something other than PvE or a player. If you look at DPS of all the weapons over a 20 second period (the time it takes for all guns to be out of ammo) the sword would be much better balanced with a 1.5 second miss time period. @Galactic-Geek and others seem to think that .4 seconds on a miss more will make the sword feel "clunky" though. Personally, I would say just don't miss your swings like they always tell eye of reach users to do?
Thank you for having a brain and seeing what we talk about here. For reference, it used to basically work like that (I'm not exactly certain on the timings but 1.5 seconds sounds close), before they changed it so that there was essentially no penalty for missing your sword swing. I'm of the opinion that sword users don't need to be coddled, I guess Geek disagrees and likes being coddled.
@galactic-geek said in Sword spam:
@comrade-molly You have to isolate/separate the timing of the sword swings from the server issues. 1 does not affect the other's timing - only whether it hits or not (only then might it affect how long it takes for you to attack with your next swing).
In an experiment, you can't have variables, otherwise, it won't be a proper experiment.
Nobody is saying that the problem of server lag goes away, or that they're the same problem. However, the interaction with server lag is relevant to the discussion because it is exacerbated by the complete lack of penalty for being a brainless swordspammer who just prays to connect a slash, rather than having some skill and placing your slashes properly, only when you know you're within striking distance.
Now go ahead and type another giant paragraph nobody's going to read about how "SwOrDsPaMmInG iS mAdE uP!"
I’ve been here forever and I have often argued the person to person combat in this game to be similar to Minecraft/Roblox.
Sloppy, goofy, silly. So when I see the PVP try hard talking about “Skill” I usually just roll my eyes.
One thing I have noticed and I think is the biggest factor is Server connections. For the most part I’m awful at the human to human PVP. But there are sessions where I’m like a PVP god! Taking out multiple 4 man galleon crews, killing everyone, boarding The Whole nine yards.
At those times, IT never felt like I was better than them I felt like my sever connection was 10x better.
And there are times where my entire crew gets wiped by a single slooper and it never really seemed like we sucked just that his connection was 10x better than ours.
This seemed to be way more frequent when playing with PC guys.
@comrade-molly The so called sword spam is incredibly easy to counter and punish.
Block
Dodge
Move
Counter
Coordinate (with crew)If they chase, you can bait.
@glannigan Yeah it's most of the time about connection. I was doing an FOTD steal with friends few weak's go. Had obs on because we had encountered some really toxic people. This is how it went.
-He shoots blunder, 0 dm.
-I hit him 2 times with cutless, 3rt one is blocked without animation.
-I jump over him hitting at same time, he walks through me and gets hit even tho he started his animation after me (my HP -25) but i still think it's my mistake.
-I block 1 hit.
but now this is where it get's funny
-We hit at same time but his hit counts
-He get's 2 hits on me in total, i deflect 3rt hit and HE GETS 4TH HIT IN
-I die.@Comrade-Molly Please refrain from personal attacks against users, and making derogatory posts. It is a violation of our community rules, and your post has been removed accordingly.
@comrade-molly I have not once experienced being hit with a sword from 3× beyond its reach (and I've been sailing since the alpha!), and my connection is terrible compared to most (at only 6mbps down and 0.4mbps up)! Also, Arena is filled with issues that aren't as present in Adventure. So, I think that might be why we're having different experiences.
In other words, we're comparing apples to oranges.We also clearly have fundamental differences in regards to views of the sword. That much is obvious.
So, I'll just agree to disagree.
@d3adst1ck said in Sword spam:
Before increasing the miss delay they need to address the delay at the start of the swing. A lot of people spam the attack button because the attack action is delayed.
This is absolutely true. I can press that button like 10x before the animation completely finishes... 🙄
Still, could you imagine how many spam complaints we'd get if there wasn't a delay prior to the swing? 😅
@glannigan said in Sword spam:
I’ve been here forever and I have often argued the person to person combat in this game to be similar to Minecraft/Roblox.
Sloppy, goofy, silly. So when I see the PVP try hard talking about “Skill” I usually just roll my eyes.
One thing I have noticed and I think is the biggest factor is Server connections. For the most part I’m awful at the human to human PVP. But there are sessions where I’m like a PVP god! Taking out multiple 4 man galleon crews, killing everyone, boarding The Whole nine yards.
At those times, IT never felt like I was better than them I felt like my sever connection was 10x better.
And there are times where my entire crew gets wiped by a single slooper and it never really seemed like we sucked just that his connection was 10x better than ours.
This seemed to be way more frequent when playing with PC guys.
I get that feeling too. But is it really the connection, or just a complete difference in skill? Due to the simplistic nature of the combat, or perhaps some people's perception of how simple they think it is, we may never really know for sure.
@lady-aijou said in Sword spam:
@Comrade-Molly Please refrain from personal attacks against users, and making derogatory posts. It is a violation of our community rules, and your post has been removed accordingly.
It literally wasn't but ok whatever. You could've easily edited it to remove whatever tiny part of it upset you. Here, i'll do it for you:
FOR THE LAST TIME:
NOT WHEN IT HITS YOU FROM 3X THE DISTANCE IT SHOULD
I know how to move around a ship as a boarder. I was primary boarder for my NAL team as a player, and now I'm a NAL ref and watch the literal best players in the game do it all the time, and analyze what they're doing. I am almost certainly in the top 1% of players in terms of time spent in arena, specifically time spent on other people's boats, if Rare were to tally up the stats from all of my alts.
You simply do not ever argue in good faith. You ignore facts and arguments you find inconvenient and are constantly being pedantic.
There, happy? @Lady-Aijou
No offense, but it definitely feels like several of you mods constantly remove posts that are critical of the biggest problems in your game, and are fair refutations of bad faith arguments and concern trolls who keep these forums from being a productive place to ask for improvements to the game.
I don't bypass the (overly sensitive) word filter, I don't just tell people they're bad for the sake of it, I back up whatever I say with examples and details, and I get justifiably frustrated at people who refuse to engage with facts and instead provide nothing but irrelevent or misleading information.
@comrade-molly said in Sword spam:
When people complain about sword spam, we're complaining about that; holding W and spamming M1 should not be the winning strategy for sword users
You know, it's funny that you bring this up. You were going off about how you played in NAL and that you spectate the best of the best and spend so much time in Arena, you'd think someone like that would be able to outplay someone that just swings over and over, right? And the thing is, you can! You're a good player, I've watched you do it. Due to the things you mentioned above, I wanted to see how good you were so I went to your YouTube channel and right here (https://youtu.be/A73LwXF1VaU?t=95) you can see someone with their sword out jumping towards you, about the same speed as swinging constantly. And had you not missed your pistol shot, you would've killed them without taking any damage. Does that not solve this argument? Someone who holds W and M1 will lose to someone that knows what they're doing, granted you hit both shots.
@mferr11 said in Sword spam:
@comrade-molly said in Sword spam:
When people complain about sword spam, we're complaining about that; holding W and spamming M1 should not be the winning strategy for sword users
You know, it's funny that you bring this up. You were going off about how you played in NAL and that you spectate the best of the best and spend so much time in Arena, you'd think someone like that would be able to outplay someone that just swings over and over, right? And the thing is, you can! You're a good player, I've watched you do it. Due to the things you mentioned above, I wanted to see how good you were so I went to your YouTube channel and right here (https://youtu.be/A73LwXF1VaU?t=95) you can see someone with their sword out jumping towards you, about the same speed as swinging constantly. And had you not missed your pistol shot, you would've killed them without taking any damage. Does that not solve this argument? Someone who holds W and M1 will lose to someone that knows what they're doing, granted you hit both shots.
Ok well first of all, I wasn't "going off" or "speculating I'm the best". My team didn't do all that well when I was a player, and I don't think I'm the "best of the best", just that I've probably spent more time in the Arena than nearly anyone in the active playerbase. I was illustrating a point that Geek just re-stating a list of actions was not useful or informative, nor was it a relevant response to my point about the interaction between sword spam and server lag. My point was that I know the actions you can take in the situation, and most of them simply are not possible when you're being stunlocked from a sword outside of it's proper range (a thing that happens a lot more in Arena than Adventure, but it does happen in Adventure too.)
I appreciate the view on one of my videos, but that single clip hardly illustrates anything; those guys were really bad and we easily camped them at the FoTD for a while, I just happened to get a pretty deep wallbang as a result of him falling after I missed a hipfire, so I clipped it. I don't do that bowsprit bait move against skilled players, because they'll take the opportunity and knock me off their ship, or if they also run pistol/sniper, it's giving them an opportunity to easily shoot me, as there's no room for ENAS or any other lateral movement while you're on the bowsprit.
I have however submitted other clips of inescapable, server lag influenced swordlocks, as well as clips of bad hitreg, to Rare in the past though the bug reporting function. Some of those are from secret alts that I don't want exposed to the larger PVP community, so I naturally don't post them publicly, but regardless they don't make good montage material, so they don't end up in my videos.
Well actually I am a double gunner myself and I've found that you can actually shoot while being stunned, you can also jump around so if someone swords you jump away and they'll only get one or two hits in. If your below deck use blunderboms or blunderbuss to knock back them away. Imo sword is still the the weakest weapon and I still win most of my fights against sword uses as a double gunner.
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