@grumpyw01f said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
All that being said, Ghost and Skeleton curse perfectly fit the trend of how pure curse grinds are meant to be
Yeah I never thought about that. I wonder how many players found all the journals without using the internet? That would have taken a lot of time for the shores of gold.
That is very fair... I used Rare Thief for every gd journal except glitterbeard. I found most of those organically.
@grumpyw01f said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
Getting them took some players days, others weeks, will take me months, and will take some years. That is not a fair and inclusive rule set. Unfair and exclusive rule sets decrease engagement and discourage participation.
I understand the frustration but wasn't this true before? Getting sunk on a voyage in Adventure slows down your progress. So those with more PvP experience are going to progress faster in anything... It's not 1:1 by a long shot, but the idea of playing better to progress faster has always been a part of this game.
I understand the logic but I feel as every individual's journey to PL reaches its end we see a relatively tight cumulative time range. I have no numbers to support this but with the emissary system and the ability to get PL with reapers (letting you skip oos or ma your choice), the time commitment for PL has tightened.
Someone who got PL or played before emissaries may be able to talk more about this but honestly I'm not sure the cumulative play time to get PL is all that variable anymore...
@strangeness said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
You do seem to be saying that PvErs should be entitled to them though.
Nope, never, Saying that PvPvErs should be entitled to them. Saying that everything in the game should be accessible by PvPvE activity. I don't like that the Pirates of the Caribbean stuff is locked off in a PvE box (though I assume that's some sort of licensing thing because the idea of Jack Sparrow being on your ship when an outside player jumps on your ship and doing some non-canon stuff is probably upsetting to Disney) and I don't like that the new content is locked off in a PvP bubble. I want everything to happen in an open, emergent, PvPvE arena, because that's what I keep getting told the game is meant to be.
I'm not pro the game having pure PvE options, I don't think it would be as harmful as some people think it would be, but I don't think its a good idea, but when something like this happens it triggers questions about, if the game is meant to be all PvPvE, and putting in PvE only content would destroy that, why is it so fine to have PvP content boxed out from the PvPvE experience?
@strangeness said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
...Catching and selling chickens WAS NOT FUN...
@strangeness said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
...And had many great and unexpected adventures doing so...
So, it was not fun, but it was great and fun? Hard to know at which point I lost the thread of what you were saying...
So if you are still confused about my point, my point wasn't that I suffered in vain. My point was that long grined have been a part of this game since day one.
Yes, that's understood. And my point is that only having one route to achieve anything is bad. I'm not clear how your point is a counter point to mine.
Nothing they've done deserves that level of vitriol.
I can't imagine what sort of Elysium corner of the internet you generally spend your time in that you feel justified in referring to how I've been conducting myself here as vitriolic.
So yes, maybe, just maybe, players could try embracing the grind and have new stories to tell. You might lose 90 fights, and then spawn into a well-matched fight that goes on 15 minutes when a galleon that shares your allegiance swoops in and makes for an epic three-way ship fight, and then y'all sail off after sinking that dastardly reaper and open up glitterbeard's vault. And you find yourself occasionally sailing with a few members of that galleon crew that you've befriended, because filling a galleon is hard and they always have an open slot or two with a rotating group of friends. God forbid THAT happens because people actually embraced the grind a little.
You see, that's the difference. In your example about the snakes, you related a story of PvPvE, you were engaging in PvE, someone turned up and made it PvPvE, that's cool. In your example here, you're relating a story of boxed out PvP, that ends, and then becomes PvE, because its not a PvPvE experience. Its not emergent, its not tools over rules, its not PvPvE. The new system is not a PvPvE system, which I think is bad. Because again, its not about not wanting to embrace the grind, its about not wanting to embrace non-PvPvE content.
So is there some sort of code block I missed that prevents someone from voting on the hourglass, then anchoring as soon as they surface or running around then anchoring, and securing their own loss in a way that still gets the rep?
No, but you missed how that's still a PvP experience, not a PvPvE experience.
Anyone. ANYONE. Can grind to 100, or even 1000. It may be unfun. I'd never advocate it. But "not being able to" is not a real argument. For people who hate PvP or are not good at it, they may get 9 out of 10 FotD's stolen and make no progress on those commendations and those cosmetics. They could send an hour killing colorful skellies for an hour and have the key stolen from them with a blunder to the back as they get the final kill on Graymarrow, and therefore get ZERO progress for their hour of time. This is not a false equivalence that I made. Its one of the most directly comparable types of activities and challenges that non-PvPers may face. And, in fact, might even be harder becuase unlike the hourglass, there is no matchmaking. You just get rolled up on and lose. At least with the HG, you shuold have a reasonable chance of winning if you engage and matchmaking does its thing. Is that true right now? No, but we know for a fact that changes are coming.
And again, the Fort would be a PvPvE experience, a PvE experience in an open PvPvE sandbox. You need PvE skills for it, you sometimes need PvP skills for it, you might be able to grind it with pure PvE, you might be able to steal it with pure PvP, but you're always engaging with it in a PvPvE arena, because its a PvPvE experience.
This game will always have activities some players hate. Some players HATE fishing. But to get some of the cosmetics and titles in hunters call, griding fishing is the way.
Or finding fish in wrecks. Or in rowboat chests. Or floating barrels. Multiple routes, in a PvPvE arena, to the same result, which is good.
To directly answer your question, more types of activities make the game better. Fishing, even if someone hates it, makes the game better because it appeals to a type of player that might otherwise not play the game at all. If PL was still locked behind catching chickens, I'd be 100% fine with that. The easier griend is noehter good nor bad to me. It is an evolution of the game, and the HG will undoubtedly evolve too. Even arena evolved. I hated ...HATED....Arena 2.0. I thought the single chest was painful, ugly, and took away a lot of the tactical decision space that arena 1.0 had. But it appealed to some players more than 1.0 did. So be it.
Again, its not about easier or harder grind, its about more ways to do the same thing being good. Arena wasn't bad because it was PvP, Arena was bad because it was ONLY PvP.
Unlike arena though, the HG exists in adventure and therefore can evolve with adventure, whereas Arena was fundamentally limited by the competition space that they had created. They could tweak points for chests, cannon hits, times of matches, etc, but they couldn't change its core without breaking what it was. And ultimately running a second game mode was too burdensome based on their posts. HG won't have that problem, so if activity dies, they can change it. They may even add PvE content to it. Who knows. I'm not arguing against that. The OP asked how many games he'd have to lose to grind it out. And some others took it upon themselves to say Rare was evil for putting cosmetics behind a PvP grind using the OPs post as a basis to argue their own arguments. So I am providing counterpoints. I am not opposing change. I am opposing a shift in this topic to "Rare is evil,"
Did I do that? If I did, please explain how I did. If I didn't, why bring it up in response to my responding to you. I had my response to a different point, in a different thread cut and re-posted here, which you responded to, so please, don't drag me into your perception of a thread that I wasn't even participating in until I was pulled into it.
"The point is you should have a route to accessing EVERYTHING via fun"
No. THAT'S not right. Because there is no way to make something fun for everyone. Different activities will be fun for different personality types. And those people should have that item to show off that they did their kind of fun. If you don't find PvP fun, that's FINE!!! If you don't find fishing fun, THAT'S FINE!!!!! If you don't find catching chickens fun.....you're WEIRD!!!! (joking!) and that's FINE!!!!! But you don't get the things to show off that you caught 1,828,242 chickens.
Well yes, but that's why, again, you give different routes to the same thing. Its totally possible to make everything accessible via fun, because you can make something accessible via different routes. You don't have to make something fun for everyone to make something accessible by at least one thing that's fun for everyone.
The point of divergence I have with you there is actually, I think, "And those people should have that item to show off that they did their kind of fun." which I don't agree with. And I really don't agree with it in relation to the skeleton/phantom cosmetics. Firstly, there's nothing you can only get from fishing, everything is unlocked by delivering fish, you can get every single hunter's call cosmetic without ever getting your fishing rod out, because there is more than one route to that. You can get every single hunter's call cosmetic by pure PvP, if you want to. Secondly, I think people should have access to cosmetics because they think they're cool, if they want to tell me how they got them, that's nice, I'll believe them, I don't need to have it proven by total exclusivity of a single route to getting it, even it were there for fish or chickens, which it isn't. Thirdly, I think that cosmetics can have value because they're cool, or because they're exclusive, I don't understand the need for them to be both. The skeleton curse and the phantom curse are already attractive because they're cool, if something is wanted as a badge of doing something or a mark of exclusivity it can be a bucket on your head for all it matters. There is a fair point here that exclusivity is being applied to something that doesn't need it to be desirable, and some of the most exclusive exclusivity in the game, nothing is currently as one route to get as these cosmetics, which are some of the most desirable in the game, which doesn't make sense.
Not everything should be fun to unlock for everyone. It'll be fun for some people, and the others aren't forced to participate. But they should accept that their unwillingness to participate means they don't get those particular rewards. Its a subtle but important difference.
Why? I just don't get why if so many things in the game have so many routes to get to them, because they exist in open play, a PvPvE sandbox, its so important that this part has such a narrow path to it? I think the ideal is that there are many routes to everything, as many as possible, so that everyone can get everywhere in a way that's fun for them. I don't care if you have the reward I have, I don't care because I got it doing something fun and I hope you got yours in a way that's fun for you. I don't get extra happiness from knowing that you don't have what I do.
@scurvywoof My fear for this mentality is that the mode will run out of normal people to match against due to lack of casual players being interested in the long haul. Then later down the line, voting on hourglasses becomes a death wish as it’s only sweats looking for battles at that point.
@strangeness said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
It isn't pure PvP. Never has been, never will be. It is PvPvE. A ship might roll up on you during your PvE adventure and try to force PvP, and you might run. Then they might get kraken'ed and you get away. A PvE event interrupted their attempt to force PvP. The game has always had unexpected events that can mix PvPvE in unique ways. Neither is anecdotal.
Right, but vote on the hourglass and you're boxed out from PvE, the game now consists of just PvP encounters for you. People vote on the hourglass, sit there twiddling their thumbs and then get pulled into a PvP arena bubble. That's pure PvP, where's the vE in that process and that progress?
More specifically with the S8 feature-set, PvP isn't more forced. Nobody forces you to vote on the hourglass. I'd argue that the type of player that used to server hop, checking emmy tables for wooden ships, can now vote to fight other players also looking for PvP, which makes the waters CALMER for PvErs, and somewhat safer for those players to vote up an emmy flag while doing their adventures for more gold, giving them more opportunities to get other cosnetics that may have previously been harder to get. While S8 didn't introduce any new PvE mechanics, they still impact PvE in a way that enhances PvE, not detracts from it.
The thing is, I heard this reasoning when there was Arena and people called for a PvE option, and the reasoning stunk then and it stinks now. How is it that boxing off PvP is good for the game, but boxing off PvE would be bad? I mean, I don't want to box off PvE, I don't want PvE, I want PvPvE, but since you've bought it up as if I do, how does that work? Also, I don't really care if it helps PvE, I care about PvPvE.
@nex-stargaze said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
You guys are complaining about something Rare isn't even going to improve until 2023.
You understand that's four days away, right?
@gtothefo said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
@nex-stargaze said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
You guys are complaining about something Rare isn't even going to improve until 2023.
You understand that's four days away, right?
You do realize that Rare has been out of the office for the past couple of weeks for the holidays, thus not working on it at that time, right?
@gtothefo 5 days at minimum (Most businesses aren't open on Jan 1st), about a month from now realistically (as per the monthly emporium refresh).
This is assuming any of these "issues" are being remotely looked at and fixed within a few weeks from now, alongside the launch of the next Adventure, which may come with its own issues upon launch. Most we know to expect in "early 2023" is some matchmaking improvements for the Hourglass, the next Adventure, and that's about it.
@scurvywoof said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
Everyone wants Gold Curse and, with your argument, it should be able to be gained through PvP as well because it's not inclusive of PvP players and can only be gained through PvE.
No, its gained through PvPvE, playing PvE on a map with other, sometimes aggressive players. Because there's no curse behind a pure PvE mode.
I would be behind the idea if PvP'ers could earn PvE rewards through PvP, but I doubt you're for that.
Couldn't care less.
@dlchief58 said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
@gtothefo said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
@nex-stargaze said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
You guys are complaining about something Rare isn't even going to improve until 2023.
You understand that's four days away, right?
You do realize that Rare has been out of the office for the past couple of weeks for the holidays, thus not working on it at that time, right?
@nex-stargaze said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
@gtothefo 5 days at minimum (Most businesses aren't open on Jan 1st), about a month from now realistically (as per the monthly emporium refresh).
This is assuming any of these "issues" are being remotely looked at and fixed within a few weeks from now, alongside the launch of the next Adventure, which may come with its own issues upon launch. Most we know to expect in "early 2023" is some matchmaking improvements for the Hourglass, the next Adventure, and that's about it.
"Isn't even going to improve until 2023" still is hardly a reason not to bring it up now, even if that means they're not going to start working on it for a week or two. "Isn't even going to improve it until 2023" is, at this point the exact same as saying "Are, at the earliest point from now on when they are in the office, going to improve it" isn't it?
@gtothefo said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
@dlchief58 said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
@gtothefo said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
@nex-stargaze said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
You guys are complaining about something Rare isn't even going to improve until 2023.
You understand that's four days away, right?
You do realize that Rare has been out of the office for the past couple of weeks for the holidays, thus not working on it at that time, right?
@nex-stargaze said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
@gtothefo 5 days at minimum (Most businesses aren't open on Jan 1st), about a month from now realistically (as per the monthly emporium refresh).
This is assuming any of these "issues" are being remotely looked at and fixed within a few weeks from now, alongside the launch of the next Adventure, which may come with its own issues upon launch. Most we know to expect in "early 2023" is some matchmaking improvements for the Hourglass, the next Adventure, and that's about it.
"Isn't even going to improve until 2023" still is hardly a reason not to bring it up now, even if that means they're not going to start working on it for a week or two. "Isn't even going to improve it until 2023" is, at this point the exact same as saying "Are, at the earliest point from now on when they are in the office, going to improve it" isn't it?
You throwing a hissy fit about it isn't going to make it happen any faster, especially when you ignore the realities of the situation with your sense of entitlement....like no one is in the offices even working on it at this point.
@dlchief58 said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
You throwing a hissy fit about it isn't going to make it happen any faster, especially when you ignore the realities of the situation with your sense of entitlement....like no one is in the offices even working on it at this point.
Your standard for both a hissy fit and a sense of entitlement is really bizarre. I'm literally just pointing out that "Isn't going to happen until 2023" really isn't a reason not do something at this point in time.
I love the way you said some things there and immediately want to ret con every post I've made on this topic replacing PVE with PVEVP.
I am purturbed that the curses are locked behind PVP content. Why can't they be obtained organically in my PVEVP sandbox like how Rare claims this game is? Defending faction treasury rewards are pitifilul compared to PVP wins and streaks. Why should two of the most requested curses in the game be locked behind PVP in a PVEVP game?
@lordqulex said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
I love the way you said some things there and immediately want to ret con every post I've made on this topic replacing PVE with PVEVP.
I am purturbed that the curses are locked behind PVP content. Why can't they be obtained organically in my PVEVP sandbox like how Rare claims this game is? Defending faction treasury rewards are pitifilul compared to PVP wins and streaks. Why should two of the most requested curses in the game be locked behind PVP in a PVEVP game?
I was so disappointed when I saw what the hourglass actually was from what it was described to be. The description talked about a "War Map" that let you seek out other players across servers, I really thought it was going to be something emergent, a tool that let players control and curate a PvPvE experience. Then it turned up and it was just a button you hit and then sat there picking your nose until it delivered a handed up PvP experience. One of the things that annoys me is that its essentially PvP quick travel, PvP on demand, there's not a PvE on demand option, if people could dive under the ocean and pop up a few seconds later at the island of their choice the game would be a lot less rich in ways, but by god I'd get a lot more done in a session.
Maybe Rare can provide an option to pve or pvp after queuing up for a match that way only the people that are extremely good will appreciate the challenge of going up against other pvp extremists vs gamers that just don't have the skillset as much as we wanted to.
I initially loved the pvp idea and welcomed it so i started playing pvp, it was fun and seemed i was going up against players with similar skillset, i won some matches and lost some
but then i reached level 18 and it is now been impossible to win any match, i sometimes play with a friend and he is fairly skilled yet we could not do anything against other players that i was getting macthed with.
I also play solo sloop a lot and same thing always, unable to win a match not to mention i go up against dual players when im solo and it's just impossible that i've given up since does not matter what i try i always end up sinking.
And yeah there are some players that will just say "oh keep at it, get good" etc. but they don't realize not everybody can reach extreme levels of pvp.
Thats like telling another player "hey i won the championship in X game you can too, so just get gud".
So thanks for the encouragement but no, there are some players that are just excelent at pvp and just because we practice does not mean we will match their skillset.
Other point worth mentioning is some of the extreme pvp gamers already reached the max level in days, which i understand they want a challenge and a reward so they want more, but if you think about it if they already reached that in days or weeks and another player tries and tries and a month later barely reached level 10 or lower then that shows you how much of a gap there is between pvp skillset.
@klutchxking518 said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
@scurvywoof My fear for this mentality is that the mode will run out of normal people to match against due to lack of casual players being interested in the long haul. Then later down the line, voting on hourglasses becomes a death wish as it’s only sweats looking for battles at that point.
It already is a death wish and i guarantee you i'm not just speaking for myself.
@gtothefo said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
@scurvywoof said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
Everyone wants Gold Curse and, with your argument, it should be able to be gained through PvP as well because it's not inclusive of PvP players and can only be gained through PvE.
No, its gained through PvPvE, playing PvE on a map with other, sometimes aggressive players. Because there's no curse behind a pure PvE mode..
It’s purely behind PvE in the PvEvP world. So, you’re wrong. It’s a PvE curse. I could say that, because the new curses are PvP in the PvEvP world and there is a threat of PvE encounters happening, then it’s not purely PvP. Shooting yourself in the foot there.
I would be behind the idea if PvP'ers could earn PvE rewards through PvP, but I doubt you're for that.
Couldn't care less.
So why respond if you don’t care enough to balance out both sides of the equation? It seems that you want the reward without putting in the work.
@gtothefo said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
@strangeness said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
You do seem to be saying that PvErs should be entitled to them though.
Nope, never, Saying that PvPvErs should be entitled to them. Saying that everything in the game should be accessible by PvPvE activity. I don't like that the Pirates of the Caribbean stuff is locked off in a PvE box (though I assume that's some sort of licensing thing because the idea of Jack Sparrow being on your ship when an outside player jumps on your ship and doing some non-canon stuff is probably upsetting to Disney) and I don't like that the new content is locked off in a PvP bubble. I want everything to happen in an open, emergent, PvPvE arena, because that's what I keep getting told the game is meant to be.
I'm not pro the game having pure PvE options, I don't think it would be as harmful as some people think it would be, but I don't think its a good idea, but when something like this happens it triggers questions about, if the game is meant to be all PvPvE, and putting in PvE only content would destroy that, why is it so fine to have PvP content boxed out from the PvPvE experience?
@strangeness said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
...Catching and selling chickens WAS NOT FUN...
@strangeness said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
...And had many great and unexpected adventures doing so...So, it was not fun, but it was great and fun? Hard to know at which point I lost the thread of what you were saying...
So if you are still confused about my point, my point wasn't that I suffered in vain. My point was that long grined have been a part of this game since day one.
Yes, that's understood. And my point is that only having one route to achieve anything is bad. I'm not clear how your point is a counter point to mine.
Nothing they've done deserves that level of vitriol.
I can't imagine what sort of Elysium corner of the internet you generally spend your time in that you feel justified in referring to how I've been conducting myself here as vitriolic.
So yes, maybe, just maybe, players could try embracing the grind and have new stories to tell. You might lose 90 fights, and then spawn into a well-matched fight that goes on 15 minutes when a galleon that shares your allegiance swoops in and makes for an epic three-way ship fight, and then y'all sail off after sinking that dastardly reaper and open up glitterbeard's vault. And you find yourself occasionally sailing with a few members of that galleon crew that you've befriended, because filling a galleon is hard and they always have an open slot or two with a rotating group of friends. God forbid THAT happens because people actually embraced the grind a little.
You see, that's the difference. In your example about the snakes, you related a story of PvPvE, you were engaging in PvE, someone turned up and made it PvPvE, that's cool. In your example here, you're relating a story of boxed out PvP, that ends, and then becomes PvE, because its not a PvPvE experience. Its not emergent, its not tools over rules, its not PvPvE. The new system is not a PvPvE system, which I think is bad. Because again, its not about not wanting to embrace the grind, its about not wanting to embrace non-PvPvE content.
So is there some sort of code block I missed that prevents someone from voting on the hourglass, then anchoring as soon as they surface or running around then anchoring, and securing their own loss in a way that still gets the rep?
No, but you missed how that's still a PvP experience, not a PvPvE experience.
Anyone. ANYONE. Can grind to 100, or even 1000. It may be unfun. I'd never advocate it. But "not being able to" is not a real argument. For people who hate PvP or are not good at it, they may get 9 out of 10 FotD's stolen and make no progress on those commendations and those cosmetics. They could send an hour killing colorful skellies for an hour and have the key stolen from them with a blunder to the back as they get the final kill on Graymarrow, and therefore get ZERO progress for their hour of time. This is not a false equivalence that I made. Its one of the most directly comparable types of activities and challenges that non-PvPers may face. And, in fact, might even be harder becuase unlike the hourglass, there is no matchmaking. You just get rolled up on and lose. At least with the HG, you shuold have a reasonable chance of winning if you engage and matchmaking does its thing. Is that true right now? No, but we know for a fact that changes are coming.
And again, the Fort would be a PvPvE experience, a PvE experience in an open PvPvE sandbox. You need PvE skills for it, you sometimes need PvP skills for it, you might be able to grind it with pure PvE, you might be able to steal it with pure PvP, but you're always engaging with it in a PvPvE arena, because its a PvPvE experience.
This game will always have activities some players hate. Some players HATE fishing. But to get some of the cosmetics and titles in hunters call, griding fishing is the way.
Or finding fish in wrecks. Or in rowboat chests. Or floating barrels. Multiple routes, in a PvPvE arena, to the same result, which is good.
To directly answer your question, more types of activities make the game better. Fishing, even if someone hates it, makes the game better because it appeals to a type of player that might otherwise not play the game at all. If PL was still locked behind catching chickens, I'd be 100% fine with that. The easier griend is noehter good nor bad to me. It is an evolution of the game, and the HG will undoubtedly evolve too. Even arena evolved. I hated ...HATED....Arena 2.0. I thought the single chest was painful, ugly, and took away a lot of the tactical decision space that arena 1.0 had. But it appealed to some players more than 1.0 did. So be it.
Again, its not about easier or harder grind, its about more ways to do the same thing being good. Arena wasn't bad because it was PvP, Arena was bad because it was ONLY PvP.
Unlike arena though, the HG exists in adventure and therefore can evolve with adventure, whereas Arena was fundamentally limited by the competition space that they had created. They could tweak points for chests, cannon hits, times of matches, etc, but they couldn't change its core without breaking what it was. And ultimately running a second game mode was too burdensome based on their posts. HG won't have that problem, so if activity dies, they can change it. They may even add PvE content to it. Who knows. I'm not arguing against that. The OP asked how many games he'd have to lose to grind it out. And some others took it upon themselves to say Rare was evil for putting cosmetics behind a PvP grind using the OPs post as a basis to argue their own arguments. So I am providing counterpoints. I am not opposing change. I am opposing a shift in this topic to "Rare is evil,"
Did I do that? If I did, please explain how I did. If I didn't, why bring it up in response to my responding to you. I had my response to a different point, in a different thread cut and re-posted here, which you responded to, so please, don't drag me into your perception of a thread that I wasn't even participating in until I was pulled into it.
"The point is you should have a route to accessing EVERYTHING via fun"
No. THAT'S not right. Because there is no way to make something fun for everyone. Different activities will be fun for different personality types. And those people should have that item to show off that they did their kind of fun. If you don't find PvP fun, that's FINE!!! If you don't find fishing fun, THAT'S FINE!!!!! If you don't find catching chickens fun.....you're WEIRD!!!! (joking!) and that's FINE!!!!! But you don't get the things to show off that you caught 1,828,242 chickens.
Well yes, but that's why, again, you give different routes to the same thing. Its totally possible to make everything accessible via fun, because you can make something accessible via different routes. You don't have to make something fun for everyone to make something accessible by at least one thing that's fun for everyone.
The point of divergence I have with you there is actually, I think, "And those people should have that item to show off that they did their kind of fun." which I don't agree with. And I really don't agree with it in relation to the skeleton/phantom cosmetics. Firstly, there's nothing you can only get from fishing, everything is unlocked by delivering fish, you can get every single hunter's call cosmetic without ever getting your fishing rod out, because there is more than one route to that. You can get every single hunter's call cosmetic by pure PvP, if you want to. Secondly, I think people should have access to cosmetics because they think they're cool, if they want to tell me how they got them, that's nice, I'll believe them, I don't need to have it proven by total exclusivity of a single route to getting it, even it were there for fish or chickens, which it isn't. Thirdly, I think that cosmetics can have value because they're cool, or because they're exclusive, I don't understand the need for them to be both. The skeleton curse and the phantom curse are already attractive because they're cool, if something is wanted as a badge of doing something or a mark of exclusivity it can be a bucket on your head for all it matters. There is a fair point here that exclusivity is being applied to something that doesn't need it to be desirable, and some of the most exclusive exclusivity in the game, nothing is currently as one route to get as these cosmetics, which are some of the most desirable in the game, which doesn't make sense.
Not everything should be fun to unlock for everyone. It'll be fun for some people, and the others aren't forced to participate. But they should accept that their unwillingness to participate means they don't get those particular rewards. Its a subtle but important difference.
Why? I just don't get why if so many things in the game have so many routes to get to them, because they exist in open play, a PvPvE sandbox, its so important that this part has such a narrow path to it? I think the ideal is that there are many routes to everything, as many as possible, so that everyone can get everywhere in a way that's fun for them. I don't care if you have the reward I have, I don't care because I got it doing something fun and I hope you got yours in a way that's fun for you. I don't get extra happiness from knowing that you don't have what I do.
I agree with absolutely everything you said. The only PvE exclusive things that comes to my mind are Tall Tales and Adventures. Adventures being shorter, and Tall Tales having checkpoints make it so those who don't enjoy the PvE can have short sessions of PvE while doing amazing progress.
There is also guides and videos telling the exact location of journals, the quest items, puzzle solutions to any possible combination, and everything that is needed to know in order to do it as soon and easy as possible. I'd say the Gold curse is a lot more accessible to PvP players than the ghost and skeleton curse is to PvE players. (When I say PvP or PvE players I don't mean exclusively doing it, but those who mainly do that specific task).
I also agree with you, cosmetics are just cosmetics, sure, some players want to use them as a badge of honor and show off to other people, I don't think everyone does that, some of us just want to look cool, that's it. I use the Ashen Curse because it's cool looking, it has a glowing ribcage, it has ash and lava in your hands, that's nice, I don't care if people think it is a noob curse because how easy it is to get. I wouldn't care if people suddenly got the Vanguard sails for simple tasks, to me the Vanguard sails are just white sails with a small gray logo on it, I don't need to show off I was here since 2017. I'm sure no one else cares about my accomplishments. I just want to look good for myself without the validation of anyone else.
The ghost and skeleton curse are very time-consuming for those who are not used to PvP. And as you said, there is no other way to get reputation in the two new subfactions others than sink your opponent or get sunk by them. And there is no shortcut to it, Tall Tales have shortcuts, but Sea of Bones don't. The most requested curses that were desired by a large portion of the community are behind a PvP only activity. And PvP only players were a very tiny portion of the community since they dedicated their time to Arena and Arena was closed due to low population.
Should the ghost and skeleton curse be trophies or badges of honor? I don't see why the base curses should be very rare and exclusive trophies when the golden ghost curse and the golden bones are there to be the actual trophies. In fact, the ghost and skeleton curses should be part of the beginning of the grind since they are required to do commendations, to unlock more skeleton cosmetics and the guardian ghost set some activities need to be done while wearing the curses themselves. Can the grind to 100 be reduced a little bit please? Or maybe have another method that can be enjoyable by other type of players, please? I'm sure that adding some other route to it will not have any negative impact on the PvP system itself. Pirate Legend could only be achieved by getting to level 50 with Gold Hoarders, Order of Souls and Merchant Alliance, but now we have more trading companies, the Sea Dogs (that no longer exist), the Hunter's Call, and the Reapers Bones. New methods of obtaining pirate legend and the content from the original 3 companies has not been affected negatively. I'm even sure that Pirate Legend can be obtained by just stealing loot without ever doing a simple quest. So many things in this game have alternatives, except the Tall Tales and the Sea of Bones.
@scurvywoof said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
@gtothefo said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
@scurvywoof said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
Everyone wants Gold Curse and, with your argument, it should be able to be gained through PvP as well because it's not inclusive of PvP players and can only be gained through PvE.
No, its gained through PvPvE, playing PvE on a map with other, sometimes aggressive players. Because there's no curse behind a pure PvE mode..
It’s purely behind PvE in the PvEvP world. So, you’re wrong. It’s a PvE curse. I could say that, because the new curses are PvP in the PvEvP world and there is a threat of PvE encounters happening, then it’s not purely PvP. Shooting yourself in the foot there.
I would be behind the idea if PvP'ers could earn PvE rewards through PvP, but I doubt you're for that.
Couldn't care less.
So why respond if you don’t care enough to balance out both sides of the equation? It seems that you want the reward without putting in the work.
I think the Gold curse can also be adquired by doing PvP, but it is very unlikely. The PvPers would have to attack and steal Tall Tale items and start the Tall Tale just to deliver the stolen artifacts.
I wouldn't be against the idea of having a PvP method of obtaining the gold curse, in fact I have a wacky idea of how PvP players could get cosmetics from Tall Tales without doing them.
Note: I don't think they meant "I couldn't care less about balancing the equation" but it was more like "I couldn't care less if they added a PvP method of obtaining the gold curse".
@dragotech123 You know you have to find every single journal for the first 10 Tall Tales, right? You can't steal finding journals from someone's commendations tab unless you're a master hacker xD
You're probably right, but it's a very poor way to view things, especially given the fact that he feels entitled to the curses that are only acquired through PvP, which he isn't. He'd be entitled to them if he was already level 100 for both factions and hadn't yet received them, meaning that a support ticket would need to be submitted. The issue is, these people want the curses without putting in the work to get them. Now, if every other curse, cosmetic and title in the game that is purely behind PvE had a PvP way to get it, then sure, make it so these curses can be obtained through PvE.
However, Rare won't ever do this (probably because there is no logical way to actually do it), so I am against the idea presented in this thread.
I still think the best explanation is you get the gold curse in a PVEVP sandbox within a relatively consistent time. You get the sunken curse in a PVEVP sandbox within a relatively consistent time. You get the ashen, and souls curse in a PVEVP sandbox within a relatively consistent time.
You get the skeleton and phantom curses in a PVP arena, and the time investment to do so is variable based on random events (third parties, alliances, hit reg, etc), how RNGsus decides to match-make you against people above or below your skill level, or exclusively above/below if you are highly/un- skilled. It's an inconsistent play experience and explicitly not the PVEVP sandbox which the team loves to say the game is.
@lordqulex It takes no longer to get skeleton/ ghost curse. If anything, gold curse takes longer to get. You can get attacked, face PvE emergent threats, etc, etc. Besides, it takes ages to complete each tale 5 times, regardless of the use of checkpoints or not. The argument that RNG applies to the mode is irrelevant when the exact same argument can be applied to PvE.
Also, the mode is not exclusively PvP. You can spawn in fog (a PvE event), a skeleton fleet (a PvE event), on a ship actively krakened or a kraken may spawn during it, megalodons, skeleton ships, sirens, floating kegs, etc, etc. As of my session today, I had to fight in a skeleton fleet and in heavy fog.
It's PvEvP the whole time. You have a higher chance of having to deal with a PvE event within the PvP mode compared to being attacked by a ship during a Tall Tale. It's not like that's exaggerated either, it's true, which is quite sad if you think about it.
Obviously you are going to be paired against crews better than you. That's how it is. Without trying to sound like I'm tooting my own horn, I'm fairly skilled at the game. That doesn't mean I'm unsinkable. I met a crew just before that had the godliest cannons I have ever seen in my whole time playing this game. The matchmaking doesn't work as intended because servers/ stamps are almost lifeless. With cross-stamp queueing and same-factions battles, queue times will improve and you will - hopefully - be matched up against crews of similar skill level fairly consistently.
Not even the improved matchmaking can fix the core issue:
PvE players have to invest dozen times more time than PvP players to get the PvP curses. While PvP players can watch a guide and get the PvE curses about as fast as the PvE players while being semi-afk.
In PvE players do Tales few times while they are winning 90% of time and progressing at steady pace per hour played. Difference between someone doing Tales quickly, and someone slowly is small.
In PvP most of players are not winning 90% of time and not progressing steadily per hour played. Difference between someone winning quickly and someone slowly is already huge. Difference between win streaks and loss streaks colossal.
Season 8 made sure that PvP players can breeze quickly (comperatively, it's still rubbish grind) through the golden curses, while PvE players are struggling to even reach one basic curse. The progression patch post 100 made it clear that Rare cares more about slowing down the progression of best PvP players, which is entirely their fault for allowing them to progress with such speed boost from streaks, while they don't even consider how awful the experience already is of average and bellow players.
@scurvywoof it has not been my experience. I got my gold curse after 50-55 hours of gameplay.
After roughly the same time investment in the S8 I'm lvl 61 / 19 (with a positive winrate mind you).
My journey to the gold curse was filled with rewards while the S8 curses offer a single figurehead and a crest.
They aren't equivalent.
@grog-minto said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
@scurvywoof it has not been my experience. I got my gold curse after 50-55 hours of gameplay.
After roughly the same time investment in the S8 I'm lvl 61 / 19 (with a positive winrate mind you).My journey to the gold curse was filled with rewards while the S8 curses offer a single figurehead and a crest.
They aren't equivalent.
I've played this season for maybe 15 hours at most and I am level 33 for Reapers and 8 for Athena (without being able to use the double gold/ glory weekend). In fairness, it wouldn't be this bad if Rare didn't make it harder to gain levels. I still don't understand why they would make it harder but there you go. Queue times make up probably 2/3 of the time spent in this new mode. I guarantee you that, with shorter queue times, it would take half the time to get to one of the curses. Without the long queue times, it would definitely take less time to progress, but, alas, that's not the case.
I bet that the time spent you spent actually fighting other players has taken much less time to get to where you are now than the Gold Curse.
The core issue which affects every aspect of the game is a general lack of players and organic activities. If these issues can be solved, everyone can have an easy, breezy time getting everything they want with relative ease.
@scurvywoof that's absolutely right. On any given session less than 40% of the time is spent actually fighting.
The "early 2023 update" will make or break the mode for me. Right now, even in solo sloop I would be lucky to get 3 fights an hour. When going from lvl 60 to 61 took me 3 wins and selling an hourglass at streak 2. But I mostly play on Galleon.
@arch-ideall said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
Not even the improved matchmaking can fix the core issue:
PvE players have to invest dozen times more time than PvP players to get the PvP curses. While PvP players can watch a guide and get the PvE curses about as fast as the PvE players while being semi-afk.In PvE players do Tales few times while they are winning 90% of time and progressing at steady pace per hour played. Difference between someone doing Tales quickly, and someone slowly is small.
In PvP most of players are not winning 90% of time and not progressing steadily per hour played. Difference between someone winning quickly and someone slowly is already huge. Difference between win streaks and loss streaks colossal.
Season 8 made sure that PvP players can breeze quickly (comperatively, it's still rubbish grind) through the golden curses, while PvE players are struggling to even reach one basic curse. The progression patch post 100 made it clear that Rare cares more about slowing down the progression of best PvP players, which is entirely their fault for allowing them to progress with such speed boost from streaks, while they don't even consider how awful the experience already is of average and bellow players.
I quoted this just to make people read it again. This is 100% the problem. This is what needs to be fixed, the inconsistent play experience for all players.
@lordqulex said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
@arch-ideall said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
Not even the improved matchmaking can fix the core issue:
PvE players have to invest dozen times more time than PvP players to get the PvP curses. While PvP players can watch a guide and get the PvE curses about as fast as the PvE players while being semi-afk.In PvE players do Tales few times while they are winning 90% of time and progressing at steady pace per hour played. Difference between someone doing Tales quickly, and someone slowly is small.
In PvP most of players are not winning 90% of time and not progressing steadily per hour played. Difference between someone winning quickly and someone slowly is already huge. Difference between win streaks and loss streaks colossal.
Season 8 made sure that PvP players can breeze quickly (comperatively, it's still rubbish grind) through the golden curses, while PvE players are struggling to even reach one basic curse. The progression patch post 100 made it clear that Rare cares more about slowing down the progression of best PvP players, which is entirely their fault for allowing them to progress with such speed boost from streaks, while they don't even consider how awful the experience already is of average and bellow players.
I quoted this just to make people read it again. This is 100% the problem. This is what needs to be fixed, the inconsistent play experience for all players.
But that isnt the problem. Every cosmetic isnt meant for everyone to have. Some people will always get things done faster than others, why would this be any different? LSD took 240 wins, even with Arena 2.0 times that was 15 min per match. That was 60 hours of winning for 4 weapons, that doesnt include the time spent in the lobby waiting for a match to start or any time spent losing. (It would be 96 hours of winning for arena 1.0). What made arena feel good was that there was a few dozen cosmetics to earn along the way. You had the progression of the sword and blunder for leveling up, the unlocks for the pistol and eor. the kills with all of those for the triumphant versions. You had wins and participation unlocks of boat/clothing options. You kept being able to unlock things so the 240 never felt so far. We need more rewards before the curses so that people feel rewarded for their time. We dont need the curses easier for people to obtain. The OP said "I hate pvp but really want the curses". They need to pvp or they dont deserve the curses. People wont be able to get these despite wanting them and thats okay.
I stopped reading after the first line. I want to build an inclusive community and that means every cosmetic is for everyone. We should give every pirate an equal opportunity to get every cosmetic in a consistent way. That is not the hourglass experience. I didn't even bother reading the rest of your elitist drivel.
@scurvywoof said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
It’s purely behind PvE in the PvEvP world. So, you’re wrong. It’s a PvE curse. I could say that, because the new curses are PvP in the PvEvP world and there is a threat of PvE encounters happening, then it’s not purely PvP. Shooting yourself in the foot there.
Being in the PvPvE world is what makes it PvPvE, and the very point is that the new content isn't in the PvPvE world and doesn't occur organically. With Gold Curse you sail in the PvPvE world, back and forth, you contribute to the content of that world, you make it a living breathing place where organic encounters can occur. With the hourglass you hit a button and you wait, you don't sail to the arena location and you don't need to sail out again. If you're both invading you're stuck off in a corner of the map away from any of the emergent spawn point triggers so PvE encounters are less likely to pop. You spend most of your time not engaging with the engine of the game and when you do engage around the engine you're sectioned off to a specific and separate part of it.
So why respond if you don’t care enough to balance out both sides of the equation? It seems that you want the reward without putting in the work.
I have no idea what you mean by this. My point, my repeated and clear point, has been the more routes to things the better and the more fun that will result. Why would you think I object to a PvP route to Gold Curse?
You're probably right, but it's a very poor way to view things, especially given the fact that he feels entitled to the curses that are only acquired through PvP, which he isn't. He'd be entitled to them if he was already level 100 for both factions and hadn't yet received them, meaning that a support ticket would need to be submitted. The issue is, these people want the curses without putting in the work to get them. Now, if every other curse, cosmetic and title in the game that is purely behind PvE had a PvP way to get it, then sure, make it so these curses can be obtained through PvE.
However, Rare won't ever do this (probably because there is no logical way to actually do it), so I am against the idea presented in this thread.
Either you've not been reading what I've been saying, or your definition of entitled is waaaay off from the way its generally used. I think there should be more routes to obtaining things, that's it, that's not thinking that any route should be easier, or that there shouldn't be work, just that different sorts of work should be possible to be applied, that's it.
Also, to add, the gold curse isn't an equivalence here. The gold curse doesn't unlock a new part of the game, the gold curse doesn't offer new NPCs to interact with and, importantly, the gold curse doesn't open up a whole range of additional accessories, there are no achievements that require you to be wearing the gold curse in order to achieve them. No other curse in the game comes with a new accessories path to it, these curses are totally unique in that fashion. This isn't closest to getting the gold curse, this is closest to getting Pirate Legend, with the area it opens, new accessories path and so on, and Pirate Legend can be accessed in a PvPvE fashion, not PvP or PvE alone.
The core issue which affects every aspect of the game is a general lack of players and organic activities. If these issues can be solved, everyone can have an easy, breezy time getting everything they want with relative ease.
This is half the point, organic, emergent activity, not hitting a button and getting sucked out of the main body of the world. Organic, emergent, tools to curate a more PvP leaning experience within a PvPvE world, not some teleporter to drag you off to a far corner of the map so that you barely interact with the game at all. If there was more reward for engaging in PvE while running the hourglass, if there was an actual War Map experience, that's what it would be, there wouldn't be a need to sit around in a queue half the time to get worthwhile progress and the battles fought would have a higher chance of being more emergent, more interesting, more tactical and more unusual. I don't get what the objection to that is.
Love your responses here, 100%. The skeleton and phantom curse cannot be gotten organically reasonably.
(Faction treasury is the attempt at earning allegiance organically, but since PVP wins/streaks are rewarded more than faction treasury ten fold, and the risk/reward balance is incredibly lopsided, farming loses is faster than defending. Which is sad. Rare needs to figure out how to make faction treasury reward as much allegiance as PVP wins, then I will say hourglass is organic. Instant PVP for those who want it, higher risk higher reward for the rest of us. I would start by suggesting each level of faction treasury turned in awards as much allegiance as that many wins and turning in the hourglass. That way PVE and PVP are rewarded equally as they should in a true PVEVP sandbox. That would severely reduce loss farming making instant PVP better for those that actually want it.)
@lordqulex said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
I stopped reading after the first line. I want to build an inclusive community and that means every cosmetic is for everyone. We should give every pirate an equal opportunity to get every cosmetic in a consistent way. That is not the hourglass experience. I didn't even bother reading the rest of your elitist drivel.
You realize how many cosmetics are in this game that people can not get? The hourglass provides an equal opportunity for everyone. The Hourglass doesn't care if you prefer pve or pvp.
Everyone doesn't deserve every cosmetic, there are some I don't have and likely never will. That's how this game is designed. For anyone starting now, there are cosmetics from year 1, all the different log in events, anniversary events, twitch drops, adventures, arena, hardware purchases, and other random events that people won't get, and they are not entitled to them.
It's not elitist drivel, it's the way the game is designed. If you want the ghost curse or skeleton curse you need to pvp. That's just how it is. If you want the Gold curse, OoS curse, Ashen curse, or the coral curse you need to pve.
Everyone doesn't deserve every cosmetic, and it's foolish to think they do.
I'm just going to copy and paste this for you because it's easier.
You get the gold curse in a PVEVP sandbox within a relatively consistent time. You get the sunken curse in a PVEVP sandbox within a relatively consistent time. You get the ashen, and souls curse in a PVEVP sandbox within a relatively consistent time.
You get the skeleton and phantom curses in a PVP arena, and the time investment to do so is variable based on random events (third parties, alliances, hit reg, etc), how RNGsus decides to match-make you against people above or below your skill level, or exclusively above/below if you are highly/un- skilled. It's an inconsistent play experience and explicitly not the PVEVP sandbox which the team loves to say the game is.
Getting the skeleton and phantom curse are the outliers. They are PVP exclusive where every other curse is PVEVP. Every player deserves to earn them their way just like every other curse in the game. I'm sorry you don't want an inclusive community. I'm sorry you don't understand we're all here to have fun. I'm sorry you don't want people who don't enjoy PVP to have fun and earn these curse. I simply believe you're wrong, you simply believe I'm wrong, and there's no sense arguing with you any longer.
@lordqulex said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
I'm just going to copy and paste this for you because it's easier.
You get the gold curse in a PVEVP sandbox within a relatively consistent time. You get the sunken curse in a PVEVP sandbox within a relatively consistent time. You get the ashen, and souls curse in a PVEVP sandbox within a relatively consistent time.
You get the skeleton and phantom curses in a PVP arena, and the time investment to do so is variable based on random events (third parties, alliances, hit reg, etc), how RNGsus decides to match-make you against people above or below your skill level, or exclusively above/below if you are highly/un- skilled. It's an inconsistent play experience and explicitly not the PVEVP sandbox which the team loves to say the game is.
Getting the skeleton and phantom curse are the outliers. They are PVP exclusive where every other curse is PVEVP. Every player deserves to earn them their way just like every other curse in the game. I'm sorry you don't want an inclusive community. I'm sorry you don't understand we're all here to have fun. I'm sorry you don't want people who don't enjoy PVP to have fun and earn these curse. I simply believe you're wrong, you simply believe I'm wrong, and there's no sense arguing with you any longer.
There is no pvp in getting those old curses they happen in a shared world. You MUST pve for them. The new curses share thag same shared world and you MUST pvp for them. This game is inclusive, and everyone is welcome. BUT if you only enjoy one side of the game you are not the target audience.
PvErs don't deserve these curses, they are for pvping. I do believe you're wrong in this. I know we agree on other parts. But Rare also believes that you should have to pvp for these curses. And the last time they tried to lower the requirement for a pvp reward, they decided not to after the community was upset by it.
