Started skimming when the last few posts got long and started adding all-caps, so perhaps this was already proposed. What if only G5 emissaries could see each other? Still gives an R5 a reason to get there, and provides a controllable risk to other emissaries. Don’t want to be visible? Stay below Grade 5. Frankly part of the spiciness of the emissary system is sailing around with an Athena 5 with an R5 on the map knowing that my loot is probably in mortal danger; would hate to take that element out completely. And that’s coming from a non-PvP solo slooper that is barely above “come aboard, browse, take what you want, don’t miss the buffet” when it comes to putting up a fight.
Reaper level 5
Again, the reason is they know there is a reaper on the server.
If they did not know there is a reaper, would they leave? No they would not. (???!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!!!?)
"while you were clearly asked multiple times to explain that" I just explained it again. I have no idea how I can be any more clear than that. If the emissaries did not know there is a reaper on the server, they would not leave. If, for example the reaper emissary vision was range based, and not the entire map based. There, I gave an example on how to improve the system, maybe you could do that too instead of bashing your head into the wall thinking the vision ability is the only reason emissaries leave and it needs to be taken out.
Rising an emissary flag is a risk you choose to take. The risk you choose is to be seen by the lvl 5 reapers. You are welcome to not rise it and not take the added risk. If you remove the R5 ability, you remove the added risk. If you remove the added risk, you have to replace it with a new mechanic that adds more risk to the emissaries. Simply saying "someone can still sink you when youre emissary" is a very ignorant thing to say. It does not add any additional risk.
The emissary leaving the server is not only because of the ability of a reaper 5, it is also because they see the reapers so easily on the server, even when the reapers are at low levels. If the emissaries did not see them on the server, they would have no reason to leave. Do I need to repeat this for the 10th time to you? You have still not adressed it the past 9 times I have said it to you.
Just because you think the R5 ability is the sole reason does not mean it is. How are you not able to understand there are other factors that lead to emissaries leaving the server? How are you unable to understand the R5 ability is there to balance the emissary bonus you get.
"The reason they quit a server after seeing a reaper on the map/table (doesn't matter what grade) is because of that ability they get when they turn R5. "
And ill say it once again, would they leave the server, if there was a reaper, but they didnt see them instantly on the map? No they would not. So there you go. The fact they leave is not only because of the R5 ability. There are mutliple factors that go into these things. You simply can not say "IT IS JUST THE ABILITY!!!!!" when in fact its a factor of many things.
I can form the same invalid strawmans you do, here we go:
Why do emissaries leave server when there is reaper? Because of the emissary system, remove the emissary system and no one will leave.
Thats such an obscure way of thinking about feedback and game design it baffles me you think its a good way to think about things.
Oh, and nerf or eliminate portal-hopping. I think that’s one of the biggest impediments to the organic PvPvE environment. Maybe the game needs to sacrifice the outer-edge extreme PvP-only players to attract more new blood. I realize PvP is pretty much the end game (if there is one), but catering to that is like selling bullets to the guys boarding the train to buffalo country. At some point the plains are gonna be empty…
The problem with this proposed system is that the Reaper emissary is supposed to be a special emissary who is there to hunt the others. If all emissaries see each other, you take away the specialty of the reaper being the hunter.
I do agree that it is not good for the game when emissaries can check the map and see a lvl 2 reaper and go "ah, well I'll just hop to another server with no reapers in it".
One way to address this would be to remove the ability of emissaries to see if there are reapers or not, and make the reapers ability to see emissary boats on the map range based. lvl 1 you can "radar" a few squares of map around you, lvl 2 you can radar 3 squares around etc.
Emissaries could only see reapers if the reaper sees them in the radar range.
This would both nerf the reaper 5s ability to instantly scan the entire map and remove the ability of emissary players to instantly leave when they see a lvl 1 reaper on the map.
@mintharp184509 said in Reaper level 5:
Emissaries flee servers because of grade 5 reapers.
Except that's only part of the problem.
Emissaries and would-be Emissaries flee servers because of any grade Reapers.
@mintharp184509
"Well regardless of what you believe the reason why emissaries lower their flag is because they don’t want their exact location and heading broadcasted to the bad guys at all times"
But its a risk they choose to take to gain the very big bonuses that come with flying an emissary flag.
The fix is 100% certainly not to take away the risk of rising the flag.
The fix is to make it uncertain if there are reapers and to reduce the reapers ability to hop in and scan the entire map instantly.
@mintharp184509 As part of the problem here, I’d disagree. If I’m planning a peaceful Athena grind, I typically don’t stay on a server with any Reaper, knowing that they’ll be 5 by the time I get there, and I can’t keep that Grade 5 emissary voyage if I portal-hop. Now, if I’ve already got some time invested I usually take the risk, but pretty much never if I’m starting out knowing chances are good I’m sailing towards an unproductive result.
@mintharp184509 said in Reaper level 5:
@sweetsandman
Why would you flee from anything less than grade v?I can't answer that question other than to say, when we run Reaper, outside of getting server merged, there are almost never any new Emissaries that show up on the server when we do our rounds of the map checking outposts as we go.
This isn't a new thing.
Plenty of players would probably admit to logging into a server with the intent of doing GH Emissary, seeing a Grade 2 Reaper on the map, and hopping to a different server that doesn't have a Reaper on it.
@i-jusa-i said in Reaper level 5:
Again, the reason is they know there is a reaper on the server.
WHY?!?!? I have asked you multiple times to explain WHY they leave if they know there is a reason, your 'answer' still is "because they know there is a reaper" But the reason behind it you still can't explain... What about knowing there is a reaper makes them leave? Why would it be a negative thing for them about that? You still can't answer, even though you are being asked multiple times!
@i-jusa-i said in Reaper level 5:
"while you were clearly asked multiple times to explain that" I just explained it again.
No you didn't
@i-jusa-i said in Reaper level 5:
If the emissaries did not know there is a reaper on the server, they would not leave.
But what about that reaper makes it so bad for them that they leave that server? That is what you are being asked time after time and didn't even come close to answering.
And why do you leave the server? Because you know there is a reaper on the server. What if there could be a reaper, but you couldnt be 100% certain of it? That would keep rising an emissary flag exciting, knowing there actually can be a risk and not being able to just look at your map table and see if there is a risk or not.
What if you could see the reaper once they see you? Depending on the reapers grade they would have a larger "radar" radius on the map table to see any emissaries. As soon as an emissary is on the range, the emissary is also able to see the reaper.
@mintharp184509
I know. Most of this feedback will almost certainly never be taken into account anyways.
But do you think Super87Ghost idea of removing the R5 ability is a good game design choice then?
That would only further the reapers as the PvE grinding emissary and distance them from their original prupose of being the hunter of other emissaries.
They leave the server because they can instantly see if there is risk on the server or not. If they could not instantly see if the server has a reaper which is the risk in this case, they would not leave. Of course it stems from the fact the reapers are there to hunt them and have abilities to do so, but what are you trying to prove here?
The fact still is, they dont leave ONLY because of the R5 ability, they also leave because its stupidly easy for them to deduct if the server is risky or not. The risk should not be instantly apparent so the players can simply leave instantly.
"No you didn't"
I did, you just dont understand what I am saying.
"But what about that reaper makes it so bad for them that they leave that server? That is what you are being asked time after time and didn't even come close to answering."
The fact that the reaper is a risk for them? How is that not clear from the get go? Why do I even need to explain this? How is that even an arguement?
@mintharp184509
The emissaries flee the server way before they even hit grade 5. As soon as a player sees that 1/5 ships on the server is a reaper they can just leave and hop to a risk free server. This problem stems from the fact they can instantly see if the server and one of its ships is a reaper or not. They can instantly identify if there is risk or not for them.
@mintharp184509
Wrong.
Does not matter, they still can completely avoid the reaper and be completely void of any risk since they can see the reaper and leave before the reaper is of any risk to them.
There should be risk to the emissary system. With the current system the risk is minimal if not zero as long as you are able to recognize the risk and leave before the risk hits grade 5.
@mintharp184509 said in Reaper level 5:
The pirates who will flee from the sight of a reaper emissary existing on their server are the same type to run to the Red Sea rather than fight. They just don’t want to PvP.
No changes to the game will stop all people from avoiding PvP it’s just not possible given how easy it is to switch servers.
Totally agree, and at that point I'd be fine with it. At least their rewards are impacted accordingly if they choose to just sail it into the sunset.
That doesn’t mean that removing reaper grade from map table and apply practical limitations to reaper v ability wouldn’t help curb two problems.
I know personally that I could care less about a reaper emissary unless it’s within render distance or a grade v.
I agree it would help, but I don't think it would help very much....like a bandaid on an axe wound.
As you said, it's way too easy to hop servers. Players mitigate the risk side of the risk/reward system all the time by simply logging into a server, seeing there's a Reaper (of any grade) and hopping to a fresh one in under a minute with no penalty or punishment.
Don't pretend like when new ledger rewards come out that people don't hop to avoid being on a server with a Reaper of any grade. If you don't think that happens, you're either bluffing or naive.
@i-jusa-i I think you and I are pretty much on the same page. I'll be honest, my experience seems to be vastly different from that of many others; I rarely see other players, Reapers are sparse, and unexpected sinks by adversaries are almost non-existent in my sessions (I sink, I just almost always see it coming usually as the result of sticking my neck out too far), so really the current Emissary system is not that broken for me. However, I do read the complaints of others that are not so lucky (though they are probably exaggerated, there are a lot of them so there's got to be some substance) and think the Emissary system could be improved. I think it probably worked great when it was first rolled out and you (I wasn't there) didn't have Tall Tale portals and content creators sending out armies of smurfs to look for targets. Those guys seem to be pushing a playstyle that is unsustainable with the current setup, so it seems a change is in order. I dunno how to fix it, I just feel the Emissary system is so cool as an opt-in risk/reward element and hate to see it turned into a PvP farm.
@i-jusa-i said in Reaper level 5:
The fact that the reaper is a risk for them?
Finaly an answer, although not a clear one, because what (extra/bigger) risk? Every ship is a potential risk, not just reapers. And it's also not that reapers are per definition PvP (most reapers nowadays in my experience are just doing PvE and either flee from others or want to ally up. It's the other emissaries who are more of a risk in my experience).
A reaper is even a lower risk, exactly because you can see them on the map and therefore they are easy to avoid. People i know even prefer servers with reapers if they don't want to run an emissary, because it lowers the risk. Only when they want to do emissaries they don't want them, because they don't want to invest time in a server where they can't finish it, since the reaper will turn 5 before they ended and therefore have to fight that reaper in stead of doing there emissary voyages.
"There is always risk even without emissary."
There is. But there needs to be additional risk for additional reward. Rising an emissary flag to gain additional rewards leads to additional risk. That is the beauty of this game. Your solution is to reduce the risk (limit R5 ability, make it take longer to get) and not reduce the reward (emissaries still get to keep the amazing multipliers to any gold they make).
"The reason we want reapers marked is so PvP inclined players can find each other."
Sure, thats one of the reasons, but that still makes it easy for emissaries to avoid all of the supposed risk in rising an emissary flag. If the emissary can identify the risk and keep away from the risk fully, is it an actual risk?
"The reason to remove the reaper grade visibility from the map table is so that hopefully more pirates stop gearing grade v reapers as if they are unsinkable monsters that must be avoided at all costs."
I'm fine with that, any sort of improvement to the uncertainty of the risk emissaries face when they rise the flag is a good thing. An emissary should not be able to detect at 100% accuracy if they are at a risk or not on the server.
"The reason to apply limits to the reaper grade v ability is obvious. The way the system currently functions it actually discourages players from running an emissary with a grade v reaper present. That’s because grade v reapers can see all emissaries at all times which is ridiculously OP. I suggested 3 uses at 30 seconds each, all emissaries on the server are revealed on the map table after reaching grade v and speaking to servant. Why do this? It nerfs portal hopping, it makes the r5 ability less OP and it gives the target emissaries the people being hunted a chance to use the storm or other means to escape visual contact with their hunters. All good things."
The simple fact that the server has a reaper, which any other players can instantly identify from the map, already discourages players from running an emissary. There are many servers with no reapers in them, what would stop players from seeking a server like this as soon as they identify a potential risk?
Nerfing the reapers ability while keeping the other emissaries the same (reduce risk, no reduction to rewards) only makes it less useful for pvp players and further sinks the reaper as a pve grind faction.
Most of the best pvp crews I play with dont even rely on portal hopping. It takes a long time already and has no guarantee of emissaries on the new server you land on. These nerfs would make portal hopping extremely useless. In addition to the 10+ minutes of portal time you are required to sail to the hideout every time to talk to the servant to get a "flash radar" on the map to see if there are even emissaries on the server. If there are none, you are required to sail back into the portal take another 20 minutes to repeat the same.
None of the pvp crews I play would do this. We would have to full crew hopping servers normally to find fotd / fof other events.
"Yes people do flee from a reaper 1 but that’s normal. And there’s nothing that will change that. I still think my ideas are not drastic and would be good for game overall."
Your ideas are not drastic, yes, but youre still taking away a lot of the risk while keeping in all of the reward.
@mintharp184509 said in Reaper level 5:
I use to literally be a PvE only solo slooper who avoided reapers.
I have grown into a pirate who almost always open crew sloops and loves to PvP.
You and me both, sir....well...except for the open crew bit lol. My crewmate and I have grown to love the PvP side of the game over the years and cannot wait for S8 assuming it's what the creators have said it is.
People need time to grow in this game.
Unfortunately, they don't. I'd say we're more the anomaly that have grown into loving and embracing the PvPvE nature of the game and understanding the risk/reward side of the Emissary system
Instead of growing into the game, it's been made way too easy to just continue hopping servers to find one with no Reaper on it.
Yes people do flee from a reaper 1 but that’s normal. And there’s nothing that will change that. I still think my ideas are not drastic and would be good for game overall.
No, they're not drastic. But they don't fully reinforce that the Emissary system is supposed to be RISK/reward...it's so easy to mitigate the risk side today that people will just continue hopping.
Why did I need to awnser a very basic aspect of the emissary system? Its obvious that the reaper is the risk, that does not mean that the reaper should be made a non risk to emissaries and that suddenly fixes things, as you keep suggesting.
" Every ship is a potential risk, not just reapers. " "because what (extra/bigger) risk?"
The emissary system is designed around taking additional risks for additional rewards. Every ship being a risk does not have anything to do with this. There needs to be a bigger/extra risk if you rise an emissary flag. For normal emissaries, its being targetted by a reaper who has abilities to find you. For reapers its the fact everyone on the server is able to see where you are.
"A reaper is even a lower risk, exactly because you can see them on the map and therefore they are easy to avoid. People i know even prefer servers with reapers if they don't want to run an emissary, because it lowers the risk. Only when they want to do emissaries they don't want them, because they don't want to invest time in a server where they can't finish it, since the reaper will turn 5 before they ended and therefore have to fight that reaper in stead of doing there emissary voyages."
Exactly what I have been saying to you in the past 5 or so replies. Now youre saying it yourself. The people can see if the server has the risk or not. That is the issue.
The fix is not to take away the risk. There needs to be a risk for added reward.
The fix is to make the existance of the risk on the server uncertain. That way players are unable to identify if there is a risk and wheter or not they should leave to another server.
@super87ghost sagte in Reaper level 5:
@i-jusa-i said in Reaper level 5:
The fact that the reaper is a risk for them?
Finaly an answer
You couldn't find that out yourself? Or have you been just up for that answer, so you can say what you were about to say? "Wouldn't have fit without that answer"-kind of thing...
No offense, just curious after reading a bit through that thread
@schwammlgott said in Reaper level 5:
@super87ghost sagte in Reaper level 5:
@i-jusa-i said in Reaper level 5:
The fact that the reaper is a risk for them?
Finaly an answer
You couldn't find that out yourself? Or have you been just up for that answer, so you can say what you were about to say? "Wouldn't have fit without that answer"-kind of thing...
No offense, just curious after reading a bit through that thread
Fair question. It's a bit of two things:
- I didn't know for sure if he though that seeing a reaper on the map was a bigger risk or not and i didn't want to put words in his mouth. I don't like to have to strawman people, so i couldn't adress it if i weren't sure this was realy his argument.
- To many times (don't know about Jusa, so this is not personally mentioned towards him) i see people deliberately not giving the reasons behind it, so that if someone does adress them they can weasel them out of it, even though it was their reason.
And ofcourse as you saw in my responds, i don't agree that it is a bigger risk, but believe it's a lower risk. Only when it gets to R5 it becomes a bigger risk (and a way bigger one).
@super87ghost I for myself see a reaper I and a reaper V as the same risk, because it's so easy and fast to get to lvl V...
Suggestions for changes then, based on what people have been saying in this thread, mixed with some ideas of my own.
- Reapers MUST speak to the Servant of the Flame to get their grade V ability. For other emissary rewards (i.e. the Emissary Quests) you have to pick them up from a representative, so why not this?
- Reduce the speed at which you level a Reaper flag with PvE stuff, increase it for PvP stuff. Getting and selling loot from PvE quests should still increase it, but by less, and sinking ships and turning in stolen loot should be worth more for the flag.
- You should be able to sell a level 5 Reaper Emissary flag to the Gold Hoarders, Merchants, or Order for a big rep & gold boost - IF you have their respective Emissary flag raised.
Lore reason: Reapers target ships bearing their emissary flag so you've done their company a favor by eliminating one.
Gameplay reason: Gives players a reason to if not actively seek and fight the grade V Reaper, at least to consider putting up a fight since there's a good reward in it for them.
Point 3 in particular for me addresses one of the key flaws in combat: If you get pursued, why should you fight back instead of fleeing? Most times a ship seeking out PvP doesn't have loot on board, because why would you risk it? So if you are targeted by such a ship, all that fighting it accomplishes is either you getting sunk, or you sinking them with minimal reward for doing so. So what motivation do you have to fight back, especially if you have loot on board, when fleeing is typically easier and more worth it? Sure, you could just get their flag and sell it to the Reaper, but unless you were already a Reaper emissary yourself intending to get V, it's not really worth much. So fighting just isn't worth it.
By making the grade V Reaper flag an attractive loot item to ANY Emissary, you mitigate this problem.
Hey, it's not a perfect solution, but I don't know what is - I don't think a great solution has been found yet.
@mintharp184509 said in Reaper level 5:
The pirates who will flee from the sight of a reaper emissary existing on their server are the same type to run to the Red Sea rather than fight. They just don’t want to PvP.
Probably shouldn't use false equivalences like this to argue a point.
@cogswallop said in Reaper level 5:
Suggestions for changes then, based on what people have been saying in this thread, mixed with some ideas of my own.
- Reapers MUST speak to the Servant of the Flame to get their grade V ability. For other emissary rewards (i.e. the Emissary Quests) you have to pick them up from a representative, so why not this?
- Reduce the speed at which you level a Reaper flag with PvE stuff, increase it for PvP stuff. Getting and selling loot from PvE quests should still increase it, but by less, and sinking ships and turning in stolen loot should be worth more for the flag.
- You should be able to sell a level 5 Reaper Emissary flag to the Gold Hoarders, Merchants, or Order for a big rep & gold boost - IF you have their respective Emissary flag raised.
I think #2 is already a thing - you'll increase your grade faster by picking up loot that is taken from other players over just stuff you find yourself. This should maybe extend to the gold multiplier as well - stolen items get the emissary grade multiplier, and other items do not or maybe they are on a higher rate scale. There are problems with doing stuff like this due to the way loot is tagged though, because you can technically steal loot from other players before they have a chance to touch it.
#3 should definitely be possible, and would at least provide something of value to the other emissaries when the Reaper ship is carrying nothing else.
#1 is an ok suggestion, but I think it just delays the eventual issue (map visibility) and doesn't really fix it.
@i-jusa-i I disagree. If I see zero flags on the map when I'm level 5 I portal hop. I end up on a server with flags. Very simple.
You'd need to balance it out somehow.
The purpose of the Reapers is to keep the other trading companies in check, add some risk to the system. I do think having it so you can only level up by collecting "Stolen" loot is a good idea. This would count loot not touched by a player if their actions spawned it (For example someone else opening a vault rather than the Reaper), or if the loot comes from a quest that isn't on the Reapers table. I.E, an Athena not paying attention and you nicking the Chest of Legends before they can.
I've seen some people say that the Reapers LV5 ability should be taken away, if that's the case then Reapers shouldn't be visible on the map either and the LV5 bonus needs to be replaced with something else.
There should also be an incentive for Reaper interactions, if a non Reaper sinks a Reaper then they should be able to sell that flag to their trading company for a huge bounty.
Reapers work as they should and if players run away the Reapers need away to find new prey.
Make it a level 5 voyage purchaseable from reapers for 20k. This takes you directly to the first server with an active emissary on it. It also adds jump value to your flag, 10k each time you make the jump, changing the color of the reaper flag each time: yellow, green, blue, brown finally black. When the reaper jumps in a laugh cue is played to warn all other players. The reaper flag can be sold to which ever company you are with.
This would give 5 new accommodations per faction, money for ending the Reapers run.
44 / 67
