Foreground ship-on-ship encounters: locked ladders

  • The strongest aspect of this game experience is working together as a well oiled crew to deftly pilot a ship against another. Foregrounding this even further is both easy to do and worth doing. Since, it will enrich the experience for both old and new players.

    Because the existing META is to YOLO board other crews endlessly until you can successfully spawn camp an opposing crew, much of the feedback focus has been on in inadequacy of the hand-to-hand combat experience. Endless debates about OP 1-blunders, double gunning, stun locks, mindless sword swipes, bunny-hopping, and people getting spawn camped are all symptoms of the META: it foregrounds the player-to-player combat. If boarding other crews was properly difficult, then these problems would fade into the background.

    So, as far as development resources go, rather than having Rare teams dedicate countless hours to re-jigging all of these systems, a single solution could address them while also enhancing the crew-cooperation based aspect of the game. Allow us to raise and lock ladders.

    Allowing players to lock ladders in a raised position will do several things. First, it enables all players to protect themselves from endless, spammy, sword-lunging YOLO boards (which, I should say, is a favourite tactic of mine). This is particularly true for solo sloopers or any crew battling a larger crew. Since, the larger crew can always be sending out one pirate over and over until they get lucky enough to grab that ladder, board, drop anchor, and start the spawn camping (again, a preferred tactic of mine).

    Second, it enables prolonged and more interesting ship-on-ship encounters. Since, battles would be harder to win via spawn camping. They would have to be won by excellent piloting, clutch cannon shots, and deft harpooning.

    Third, it would enable two features - cannoning pirates and the harpoons - to become important once again. It took the community a very short amount of time to learn that a sword lunge is an easier way to board another crew than cannoning over or harpoon pulling. That isn't to say that people don't use these two features - they do, and I do, too. But they're less effective and/or have a more narrow use case than your standard sword-lunge-and-ladder-grab. However, these other two methods are by far the more interesting forms of boarding, and foregrounding them again would shake up boarding strategies in interesting ways.

    Which means that boarding will still happen, as will spawn camps, but they'll be harder to execute and thus less frustrating. Since, everyone (myself included) is sick of the current META.

    As far as balance goes, raising ladders and locking them is balanced. Crews that are immobile due to an anchorball or broken masts are also risking themselves not being able to get back on their boats should they fall off mid-battle without a crewmate lowering the ladder or swimming far enough away to talk to a Mer. As well, crews that lock their ladders in raised positions and then go to islands will be unable to get back on their boats without dying or taking a rowboat. Thus, if they raised the ladders to go exploring and are surprised at an island, they are putting their boat at risk because getting back on won't be straightforward. Thus, having this feature both foregrounds the kinds of cooperation-based interactions that make this game shine, while not adding wild imbalances. If anything, it adds greater balance because larger crews can't simply overwhelm smaller crews with YOLO sword lunges.

    It isn't a novel or new idea, but I hope that I have framed it in a way that makes sense.

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  • Just learn to guard your ladders properly.

    You say "If boarding other crews was properly difficult...", but it is, against a decent crew.

  • The risks are not high enough for it to be balanced. No crew in their right mind would have the ladders down in a battle. It wouldn't just shake up the meta, it would completely eliminate it and subsequently create a new one.

    There are other, better ways they could shake up the meta.

    -Make dropping the anchor take considerably longer. Like stealing a map bundle. It should not be that easy to immobilize a ship. Especially the sloop since the capstan is maybe 3 steps from the ladder.

    -Make grabbing the ladder require a brief "hold" to grab. Maybe slightly shorter than picking up a chest or something. This would force more precision and strategy by boarders instead of just spamming the interact key.

    -Introduce a sort of AOE device that can be placed at the top of ladders. Maybe make the Grog chest an AOE instead of it just only making you drunk when you pick it up. That way a boarder would have to overcome the effect of whatever is at the top in order to successfully board. The catch of course is that it would also effect the crew member and ladder guarding would be more challenging.

    I'm sure there's a ton more ways we could come up with as a community that would shake up the meta without introducing a new one.

  • Keep an eye on the ladders and don't let anyone up. It's simple.

  • Boarding is hard against a decent crew. Not to mention, naval fights wouldn't become more 'drawn out', they would become awful. As it is, naval fights that go longer than 10 minutes are frustrating and annoying. Raising the ladders is going to make naval fights awful, and nobody is going to want to engage in PvP.

    Since, everyone (myself included) is sick of the current META.

    Based off what statistics? I enjoy the current meta. You do not speak for everyone. In fact, you speak for one person, and this is yourself. You are no one's representative but yourself.

    Not to mention, the ladders are visibly attached to the ship, meaning raising/ lowering them would cause damage to the ladders and the ship. That's a dumb reason, but it makes sense.

    As far as balance goes, raising ladders and locking them is balanced. Crews that are immobile due to an anchorball or broken masts are also risking themselves not being able to get back on their boats should they fall off mid-battle without a crewmate lowering the ladder or swimming far enough away to talk to a Mer. As well, crews that lock their ladders in raised positions and then go to islands will be unable to get back on their boats without dying or taking a rowboat. Thus, if they raised the ladders to go exploring and are surprised at an island, they are putting their boat at risk because getting back on won't be straightforward. Thus, having this feature both foregrounds the kinds of cooperation-based interactions that make this game shine, while not adding wild imbalances. If anything, it adds greater balance because larger crews can't simply overwhelm smaller crews with YOLO sword lunges.

    Yes, crews are immobile, but it takes a couple of seconds to be mobile again. Boarders stop that. With the added effect of blunder bombs, boarding is the turning point on any battle. Furthermore, solo sloopers are going to have life made EVEN harder for themselves. Raise their ladders and knocked off in battle? Can't catch it, can they?

    No, raising ladders in an awful idea. There is so much more to say but I do not have the energy for it (A certain virus has seen to that).

  • @alexrogansbeta I could go the rest of my life now without reading the word "foregrounding" again. The meta amongst organized crews of any skill is not to yolo board over and over and over with your entire crew. Currently its put pressure down, probably not board, knock down masts, death spiral, maybe board, apply more pressure and then finally board. You can scuttle a sloop and keep it afloat with two people on full buckets. This is some terrible gameplay you are trying to inflict on the community. Maybe nerfing boarding with slightly longer anchor drops or adding a sound when people board. Retractable ladders is not the way.

  • The only problem with ladders at the moment is the ridiculous amount of hitreg that occurs on them.

  • @alexrogansbeta said in Foreground ship-on-ship encounters: locked ladders:

    Because the existing META is to YOLO board other crews endlessly until you can successfully spawn camp an opposing crew, much of the feedback focus has been on in inadequacy of the hand-to-hand combat experience. Endless debates about OP 1-blunders, double gunning, stun locks, mindless sword swipes, bunny-hopping, and people getting spawn camped are all symptoms of the META: it foregrounds the player-to-player combat. If boarding other crews was properly difficult, then these problems would fade into the background.

    The more meta tactic if they board is the blow their face off with a blunderbuss tactic. Also the blunderbuss is not OP because like any other game, the blunderbuss (Shotgun) is a one shot kill at close range, it just makes sense. The way to make this fair is to add a headshot multiplier which the SoT team didn't do. That is why the blunderbuss feels OP, it's because the sniper/pistol don't have the headshot advantage.

    As for the raise and lock ladders idea, that is just considered bad because what will you do if they anchored your ship and started blasting and you fell off? Then you gotta swim for 3 months to get a mermaid back just to get spawn camped again.

    Blunderbussing boarders is the solution, if you failed it's either you:

    A) Got hit-regged with the blunderbuss
    B) Got outsmarted by the enemy player

  • I am quite sick of how boarding ends up working in 1v3 and 1v4 scenarios once the other crew realizes you are solo.

    The answer wouldn’t be this though in my mind. To balance it, you shouldn’t be able to mermaid back to your ship with ladders up but really it’s just a bit OP.

    The true answer I think to improve solo is to only have to guard one way up somehow. Not sure how to make it happen but that is the only real issue. When you have 2-3 boarders, they can grab both ladders and coordinate their climb together. Sure you may blunder the first guy in the face but the other will blunder you in the back of the head at the same time. Zero to be done about it other than to retreat to the canopy and literally let them up and try to outfight them 1v2-3. Not do-able in most circumstances unfortunately. Naval battles on the other hand are really well balanced even solo vs a galleon, as long as boarding gets balanced it would be perfect.

  • @kommodoreyenser said in Foreground ship-on-ship encounters: locked ladders:

    I am quite sick of how boarding ends up working in 1v3 and 1v4 scenarios once the other crew realizes you are solo.

    The answer wouldn’t be this though in my mind. To balance it, you shouldn’t be able to mermaid back to your ship with ladders up but really it’s just a bit OP.

    The true answer I think to improve solo is to only have to guard one way up somehow. Not sure how to make it happen but that is the only real issue. When you have 2-3 boarders, they can grab both ladders and coordinate their climb together. Sure you may blunder the first guy in the face but the other will blunder you in the back of the head at the same time. Zero to be done about it other than to retreat to the canopy and literally let them up and try to outfight them 1v2-3. Not do-able in most circumstances unfortunately. Naval battles on the other hand are really well balanced even solo vs a galleon, as long as boarding gets balanced it would be perfect.

    Being solo is an option not a must. By playing solo you agree to that possibility.

  • @capt-soul-beard said in Foreground ship-on-ship encounters: locked ladders:

    @kommodoreyenser said in Foreground ship-on-ship encounters: locked ladders:

    I am quite sick of how boarding ends up working in 1v3 and 1v4 scenarios once the other crew realizes you are solo.

    The answer wouldn’t be this though in my mind. To balance it, you shouldn’t be able to mermaid back to your ship with ladders up but really it’s just a bit OP.

    The true answer I think to improve solo is to only have to guard one way up somehow. Not sure how to make it happen but that is the only real issue. When you have 2-3 boarders, they can grab both ladders and coordinate their climb together. Sure you may blunder the first guy in the face but the other will blunder you in the back of the head at the same time. Zero to be done about it other than to retreat to the canopy and literally let them up and try to outfight them 1v2-3. Not do-able in most circumstances unfortunately. Naval battles on the other hand are really well balanced even solo vs a galleon, as long as boarding gets balanced it would be perfect.

    Being solo is an option not a must. By playing solo you agree to that possibility.

    Well fortunately for players who solo, Rare are looking for ways to improve the balance of it given all the changes to combat since 2018. Just watch their latest dev Q&A.

    Also outside of open crew which honestly is not a realistic option given it makes the game even more difficult if you are the only competent player, what do you suggest for someone who has 1-3 hours one day a week to play and their friends are unavailable at said time? Rare shut down the ability for outside group creation and recruitment. I had been part of a fairly large ~60 player community until it shut down after Rare changed their policies based on a few bad apples. Regularly sailing with 1-3 other players any time and day I could get on as we were both NA and EU encompassing.

    My point being playing solo is becoming more of the norm. Not asking for easy mode by any means, but pointing out that “blunder them when they get to the top of the ladder” is not an all inclusive strategy that never fails. The situation I mentioned is also becoming more common and literally has no engagement or enrichment of gameplay. No variety or right choice to succeed in the scenario. When you can win by pure naval but are forced into an unwinnable situation regardless of skill, I would call that a pretty big gameplay flaw.

  • @kommodoreyenser Open Crew is a fate worse than death, go checkout the Sea of Thieves discord and just play with different people until you find the one

  • @capt-soul-beard said in Foreground ship-on-ship encounters: locked ladders:

    @kommodoreyenser Open Crew is a fate worse than death

    Tbh I did find some fun groups in open crew but I only go there in times with 0 expectations.

  • @lackbarwastaken said:

    The meta amongst organized crews of any skill is not to yolo board over and over and over with your entire crew. Currently its put pressure down, probably not board, knock down masts, death spiral, maybe board, apply more pressure and then finally board.

    This. Board heavy crews are really only good against newer crews and solos who have difficulty guarding ladders. An experienced crew will ensure that the boarder causes minimal damage (if he even boards) at which point the defending crew should have an advantage.

  • @kommodoreyenser said in Foreground ship-on-ship encounters: locked ladders:

    I am quite sick of how boarding ends up working in 1v3 and 1v4 scenarios once the other crew realizes you are solo.

    The answer wouldn’t be this though in my mind. To balance it, you shouldn’t be able to mermaid back to your ship with ladders up but really it’s just a bit OP.

    The true answer I think to improve solo is to only have to guard one way up somehow. Not sure how to make it happen but that is the only real issue. When you have 2-3 boarders, they can grab both ladders and coordinate their climb together. Sure you may blunder the first guy in the face but the other will blunder you in the back of the head at the same time. Zero to be done about it other than to retreat to the canopy and literally let them up and try to outfight them 1v2-3. Not do-able in most circumstances unfortunately. Naval battles on the other hand are really well balanced even solo vs a galleon, as long as boarding gets balanced it would be perfect.

    Blunderbombs. They sweep your ladders clean even if someone is clinging near the bottom while they wait for their friend to grab the other side, or if they're playing silly hitreg games by spamming ungrab/regrab.

    A crew that spams boards attempts requires much less work to out-naval so adjust your priorities accordingly. Even when you're anchored you can keep two players from boarding you by ladder almost indefinitely. Holes and fires make that more complicated, but if you've got numerous holes, fires and aren't moving, you've already lost, and their board attempts are just to save on cannon balls.

    If your ship is moving and you're stocked up on food and blunders, it's trivial to keep any number of enemies off your ladders.

  • a single solution could address them while also enhancing the crew-cooperation based aspect of the game. Allow us to raise and lock ladders.

    Solution or a hindrance?

    Allowing players to lock ladders in a raised position will do several things. First, it enables all players to protect themselves from endless, spammy, sword-lunging YOLO boards

    Start off, I can just ram my ship and jump on than board. Or throw blunderbombs to know you off. You have to use a mermaid to spawn back...so spawn camping without killing you.

    As far as balance goes, raising ladders and locking them is balanced.

    No..no it isn't. If you fall off say the front. You have a chance to grab your own ladder. But if its LOCKED and up, that survival is gone. Then mermaid. (see above)

    enables prolonged and more interesting ship-on-ship encounters. Since, battles would be harder to win via spawn camping.

    Not all battles need to be prolonged. and not all battles are won by Spawn camping or even start one.

    cannoning pirates and the harpoons - to become important once again.

    They are always important. But so are Kegs in the water and tossing blunders at you, and even ramming ships. Dont forget about dropping anchor.

    As well, crews that lock their ladders in raised positions and then go to islands will be unable to get back on their boats without dying or taking a rowboat.

    I want you to read that last part. If a ship doesn't have a rowboat...an enemy crew can easily attach one for you and "sneak" on your ship. Catching you off guard.

    raised the ladders to go exploring and are surprised at an island, they are putting their boat at risk because getting back on won't be straightforward.

    Im sorry. But I dont need to worry about, "Did I leave the ladder up or down" on my ship...that too much trouble and work. It become another thing added many people will just forget about or ignore because how silly it is too decide. "Should I lower or lock ladder? Am i in a rush?" Because again...Even with the ladder up or down, someone can STILL SINK my ship or sneak on board. The Ladder is just one way.
    Since if were going with 'YOLO" (You only live once? Seriously...that dont work in SoT) and this wont stop nor be good.

  • @lackbarwastaken sagte in Foreground ship-on-ship encounters: locked ladders:

    Maybe nerfing boarding with slightly longer anchor drops or adding a sound when people board. Retractable ladders is not the way.

    You know that there IS ALREADY A SOUND when someone boards you?

  • Raising ladders is always going to be a bad idea because, while it does prevent people from being able to board it also prevents you from being able to board. You essentially replace a potential loss scenario with a few different 100% loss scenarios.

    Any time you get knocked overboard while your ladders are up but not far away to spawn a mermaid means your ship is 100% sunk with no hope of recovery.

    Mast knocked down - sunk
    Too close to an island - sunk
    Ship doing tight circles - sunk
    Hung up on or crash into something immobile - sunk

    Not to mention the times where you might forget your ladders are up and you fall or jump off your ship (like at an outpost or an island) would now require you to swim quite some distance away in order to get a mermaid to appear.

    Terrible idea that keeps getting recycled.

  • @elthac0 said in Foreground ship-on-ship encounters: locked ladders:

    @kommodoreyenser said in Foreground ship-on-ship encounters: locked ladders:

    I am quite sick of how boarding ends up working in 1v3 and 1v4 scenarios once the other crew realizes you are solo.

    The answer wouldn’t be this though in my mind. To balance it, you shouldn’t be able to mermaid back to your ship with ladders up but really it’s just a bit OP.

    The true answer I think to improve solo is to only have to guard one way up somehow. Not sure how to make it happen but that is the only real issue. When you have 2-3 boarders, they can grab both ladders and coordinate their climb together. Sure you may blunder the first guy in the face but the other will blunder you in the back of the head at the same time. Zero to be done about it other than to retreat to the canopy and literally let them up and try to outfight them 1v2-3. Not do-able in most circumstances unfortunately. Naval battles on the other hand are really well balanced even solo vs a galleon, as long as boarding gets balanced it would be perfect.

    Blunderbombs. They sweep your ladders clean even if someone is clinging near the bottom while they wait for their friend to grab the other side, or if they're playing silly hitreg games by spamming ungrab/regrab.

    A crew that spams boards attempts requires much less work to out-naval so adjust your priorities accordingly. Even when you're anchored you can keep two players from boarding you by ladder almost indefinitely. Holes and fires make that more complicated, but if you've got numerous holes, fires and aren't moving, you've already lost, and their board attempts are just to save on cannon balls.

    If your ship is moving and you're stocked up on food and blunders, it's trivial to keep any number of enemies off your ladders.

    Not sure of your experience on a sloop but a blunder bomb thrown at the top of the ladder has zero effect on someone unless they are also near the top. Throwing one at the side of the ship is also pretty risky and will take your attention off the other ladder just the same as if you do anything else.

  • I have my own theories on why the Meta is what it is, but I despise the idea of retractable ladders. First, it doesn't address the actual problem. The meta is boarding for the simple reason because its the best way to sink a ship. Any crew worth its salt won't be sinking if its anchor is up, boarding is the one of the few reliable ways to guarantee a ship will sink. Any crew worth a damn will disengage from a fight the minute they take too much damage. By removing a reliable avenue to force a boat to stay and fight, this means ship vs ship fights will stagnate to whomever runs out of supplies first. We already see this when good crews face each other because good crews already understand how detrimental boarding is. Hence why good crews put an emphasis on guarding their ladders.

    If you want to change the Meta in an actual healthy way, tackle the real problem. My opinion is ships are way too easy to keep afloat. Boarding, in its current state, is one of the few equalizers here. Create more feasible ways to put a ship in danger of sinking and you tackle the problem. The very easy ways I see for doing this is adjusting the parameters of repairing and bailing. Essentially make those weaker. The goal should be to make people want to stay on their own boat rather than adventure out to board another. By making holes that much more of a detriment, players are more unwilling to leave the ship. By doing this, you create a meta that rewards good navel. Isn't this what you want in the end. It does two-fold things, punishes poor boarding attempts and rewards good cannon volleys.

    TLDR: Retractable ladders don't address the real problem on why the Meta is the way it is. Make players want to stay on their own ship by creating situations that punish them more for leaving. Creating tedium by removing tools is poor way to tackle the perceived problem.

  • @nabberwar agreed. Buffing naval/nerfing repairing is a decent way to decrease boarding. There are a bunch of things to tweak to accomplish this such as nerfing bucketing, tier 4 holes, if a tier 3 hole gets hit by a cannonball a tier 1 hole gets created next to it, alternative ways to anchor a ship such as hitting the capstan with a cannonball or 3. I don't think its in a terrible spot though so idk if I would implement all or any of the previous listed suggestion.

  • @lackbarwastaken An easier way to buff naval would be a slight nerf to the max volume of water that a bucket scoops from each ship type. This would be easier to maintain as much balance as possible.

  • @sweetsandman

    @lackbarwastaken said in Foreground ship-on-ship encounters: locked ladders:

    There are a bunch of things to tweak to accomplish this such as nerfing bucketing

  • @lackbarwastaken reading is hard OK?!

    Though, I meant to add to my note that adjusting things that make ships easier to sink only further increases the difficulty of solo slooping...so...as someone that has spent a LOT of time solo slooping and battling, I am strongly against those types of adjustments.

  • The amount of people interpreting this as someone complaining about getting sunk too often due to boarders is rich. Ya'll aren't pickin' up what I am putting down.

    I am saying that it is just too darn easy for me and my crew to board people and sink them by overwhelming their boat with spawn campers while one crewmember sits on the boat and puts the occasional hole in the boat we are sinking.

    The response to this isn't "git gudder at watching your ladders" or "a competent crew can prevent this". I am saying that I am bored of the fact that sending over sword lunge boarders is the most effective tactic available. Make it harder for me, Rare. Let noobs abd hardened crews alike deny me access to their ladders.

  • @nabberwar said in Foreground ship-on-ship encounters: locked ladders:

    I have my own theories on why the Meta is what it is, but I despise the idea of retractable ladders. First, it doesn't address the actual problem. The meta is boarding for the simple reason because its the best way to sink a ship. Any crew worth its salt won't be sinking if its anchor is up, boarding is the one of the few reliable ways to guarantee a ship will sink. Any crew worth a damn will disengage from a fight the minute they take too much damage. By removing a reliable avenue to force a boat to stay and fight, this means ship vs ship fights will stagnate to whomever runs out of supplies first. We already see this when good crews face each other because good crews already understand how detrimental boarding is. Hence why good crews put an emphasis on guarding their ladders.

    If you want to change the Meta in an actual healthy way, tackle the real problem. My opinion is ships are way too easy to keep afloat. Boarding, in its current state, is one of the few equalizers here. Create more feasible ways to put a ship in danger of sinking and you tackle the problem. The very easy ways I see for doing this is adjusting the parameters of repairing and bailing. Essentially make those weaker. The goal should be to make people want to stay on their own boat rather than adventure out to board another. By making holes that much more of a detriment, players are more unwilling to leave the ship. By doing this, you create a meta that rewards good navel. Isn't this what you want in the end. It does two-fold things, punishes poor boarding attempts and rewards good cannon volleys.

    TLDR: Retractable ladders don't address the real problem on why the Meta is the way it is. Make players want to stay on their own ship by creating situations that punish them more for leaving. Creating tedium by removing tools is poor way to tackle the perceived problem.

    I like your proposal. Cheers.

  • @alexrogansbeta
    Since I feel I have your attention on this somewhat, I might as well go into further detail on why I'm not really a fan of retractable ladders.

    This outright kills stealth in this game. With the ability to raise ladders it begs the question on why would I ever have them lowered? Why put myself at risk of players ever? Stealth keg plays become a thing of the past now, because what good is kegging someone when you can't follow it up with guarding the holes? All you are left to do is twiddle your thumbs in the water while the crew goes to work fixing what you just broke. How is any stealth play supposed to succeed when the main avenue of stealth is taken away. It would be rare for players to jump off land to get aboard, because that is depending on location that would never be consistent. You could certainly use a row boat, but that is a giant eyesore on the horizon, so its an easily spotted play. If I as a player and had this feature, I would just rely on harpoons to load loot and mermaids to get aboard. It gets even more cheesier considering plenty of crews have players on watch duty. So all this would do is create a Meta of permanently raised ladders only to be lowered for a fraction of the time. What little stealth in this game remains, I would very much wish to preserve it.

  • @nabberwar

    Make players want to stay on their own ship by creating situations that punish them more for leaving. Creating tedium by removing tools is poor way to tackle the perceived problem.

    Very much agree. I think a small but crucial buff could be to make the blunderbuss send an opponent down into the water once a shot has been made at them on a ladder. A small stun to also prevent them from re-grabbing the ladder instantly would also be useful. This rewards crews who are vigilant on guarding ladders and nullifies the silly 'ladder juke' technique that people like to pull off.

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