@chlodovicus It is more difficult than dummy sails because you have to adjust the angle of your sails more often. Less time on sails is more time used for other things. Your idea is more intuitive, but it's not easier.
Please, for the love of sailing-ships, negate the use of "dummy-sails"
Hello again,
If you compare with players who never even touch the angle of their sail(s) then yes, those players would probably need to angle their sails a bit. Sailing is a huge aspect of this game after all. But as it is now, sailing the sloop properly and intuitively with the current proper wind-dynamics isn't as effective as using "dummy-sails". But usually players need some experience before knowing this completely illogical mechanic. Players shouldn't have a disadvantage for doing something that's encouraged by RARE and is logically correct ie. tacking and catching wind.
Using "dummy-sails" is kinda like gaining a speed-boost in a racing-game by shifting gears to reverse; it's just wrong.
Also, in general, something that's more intuitive is by definition easier.
Happy Sailing!
@chlodovicus I hate to be this way but that's like people not knowing the lunge jump boost. Which already people arent making comparisons like yours because there are intended ways to lunge through water which rare encourage but better ones knowing mechanics.
Now if we really want to talk realism I have buddy who knows sails and sailing. With the sails we have currently tacking and such is a painful process. Square sails instead of triangular sails explains this with how the angle you need to even get wind to move you forward can be very counter to where you have to go.
Realism would also state that even if we want to move forward it would be impossible without moving distances past our destination where doing a voyage would take hours because of angling a voyage and this also doesnt take in the fact that wind changes can have it where you have a back wind only to have minutes later having a wind change to have wind directly against you. During this with the new realism we have instead of going fullspeed we go backwards before we noticed the change.
Now I get the annoyance of dummy sails we all do, but unless sails are changed to triangular ones and everyone learns how to work with wind changes more differently which requires more learning than finding out dummy sails, I personally would find this change counterintuitive to a fun design for everybody's case. And one last fact if we add those pesky triangle sails going downwind becomes useless as wind wont be as a heavy factor except going into it, because you know going backwards.
Hello,
Thanks for your input. Please read my post and comments again, since it seems like you're missing the point.
As I stated earlier, I'm a real life (former) professional sailor specialised in Sailing Ships. To be more precise; I sailed and trained aboard a three masted Tall Ship. So if you really want to talk about realism with regards to sailing Tall Ships, I'm educated in the matter and can happily educate you and most likely also your buddy.
As I also stated earlier, I'm not suggesting complete realism. That would grind the game to a halt.
Ships with triangular sails must also tack to catch wind, although they can tack at a lot tighter angles than ships with square rigged sails. Triangular sails are completely irrelevant in this game however, since all 3 ship-types already can tack at angles that are much tighter than the angles a real life Sailing Ship with triangular sails can tack at.
So yeah, I don't get why you choose to be that way. It's like you choose to comment without even reading the post or previous comments. Instead I get to repeat myself. In light of this, your argument makes no sense at all.
Happy Sailing!
@chlodovicus alright fair, thanks for your input, though a bit belittling I get what you're saying. Also the choosing to be that way is for the cutlass knowledge being similar to dummy sails knowledge. Small pool of knowledge is trying to get as much wind in your sail and lunging between land and boat vs larger pool with knowledge of dummy sails and using lunge jump boosts which both arent what any person knows off the bat but I have been the person who pushed some 2 day pirates to learn the skills.
I thought I just give my input but your wave of knowledge is obviously more superior than my bubble so thank you for telling me.
Edit: I also read all messages from you but I may have skimmed past some details on accident.
Hello again,
Thanks for your response. I'm glad that you have a passion for this game and for the art of sailing.
Let's mark this as a simple misunderstanding. Basically I think we're in agreement here.
Happy Sailing!
@chlodovicus said in Please, for the love of sailing-ships, negate the use of "dummy-sails":
Hello again,
You mention a foremast and I assume you're referring to the triangular sails attached to the bowsprit. Yes, those sails serve to direct the wind but they also provide a small amount of momentum. Square rigged Tall Ships are designed and built primarily for catching so-called trade winds and are absolutely fastest with a tail-wind. While it's true that the rear sails somewhat lessens the wind flowing to the mid and front sails, there are ways to spill the wind into the mid and front sails. Or just add more sails. Otherwise, tacking with the wind is also an option. Technically, it's the pressure-difference that produces the force that's channeled to become the ships momentum. Much like how an airplane-wing creates lift. Also, twisting the sails is another important aspect which however is too complicated to include in this game.
Happy Sailing!
Good to know about trade winds, obviously you know more than me when it comes to sailing.
Also, not to be pedantic but the friction generated by the air particles themselves is actually what transfers the energy. The pressure itself does not perform work, the energy must be transferred in order for work to be performed.In the case of aircraft, the low pressure generated over the top of the wing from the accelerating particles towards the aft generates lift by proxy of the pressure difference under the wing. The pressure difference results in friction below the wing which, since it is a surface parallel to the ground, transfers energy as force upwards.
When people think of friction they typically think of drag, which is parasitic (no work being performed). However, any time you are converting energy from a fluid's net velocity, it is done via friction. Friction is literally the transfer of the kinetic energy of a particle into another object/particle (heat is just kinetic energy with no net delta vector in a given direction).
Hello again,
Interesting topic regarding friction and thank you for bringing it to my attention, although it's a bit far from the subject. I'm currently studying theoretical physics and I have to admit that I'll need some time to study my notes and books from fluid-mechanics to be able to formulate an appropriate response. Besides, it's way past my bedtime...
Happy Sailing!
@chlodovicus said:
Also, in general, something that's more intuitive is by definition easier.
Actually, no - it just means that it's more accessible; not necessarily easier.
Hi,
When presented with a given challenge, as in this case with learning to sail in SoT, there appears to be an intuitive and a counter-intuitive approach. All things being equal, the intuitive approach is objectively the easiest.
Although for players who have zero intuition regarding sailing, you're probably right. And the easiest approach for these players is therefore the one that requires the least effort.
Happy Sailing!
@chlodovicus said in Please, for the love of sailing-ships, negate the use of "dummy-sails":
I can't see how this would make things more difficult for new players. On the contrary, what I'm suggesting is way more intuitive
Gotta agree here. When I first started playing and sailed into headwind (on sloop) I fully turned my sails left or right, because it just kinda made sense that having them flat into the wind wouldn't be fastest.
@mferr11 said in Please, for the love of sailing-ships, negate the use of "dummy-sails":
@chlodovicus said in Please, for the love of sailing-ships, negate the use of "dummy-sails":
I can't see how this would make things more difficult for new players. On the contrary, what I'm suggesting is way more intuitive
Gotta agree here. When I started playing and sailed into headwind (on sloop) I fully turned my sails left or right, because it just kinda made sense that having them flat into the wind wouldn't be fastest.
I think this is the main issue this whole thread is about. As it stands, sailing in this game, especially on the sloop, is very counter-intuitive. The problem isn't that it's not realistic enough, it's that it doesn't make any sense in the context of the game. Players would expect that catching more wind with the sail makes the ship go faster, which is for the most part true when on a brig or gally. But on a sloop, you have to angle the sails straight forward when not being able to catch full billow to go the fastest.
It just doesn't make any sense
@chlodovicus The sloop only receives increasing forward momentum from two sail positions; dummy sails in headwind and angled for full billow. Partial wind in the sail without billow does not grant an increase in momentum and is counterintuitive to the other sailing mechanics in the game. Dummy sails may have been an unintended mechanic, but has been embraced by the community as the sloop's main escape tactic when being pursued by other ships. Instead of relying on bugs to evade pursuit, all ships should rely on the same sailing mechanics by taking advantage of wind properly. The brigantine is actually a couple of percent faster than the sloop in headwind with dummy sails, making the sloop is outclassed in every situation, sans turning radius.
Hello,
I'm glad that you agree. Excellent clarification of the Sloops' current characteristics by the way.
Happy Sailing!
@bizi-betiko said:
The brigantine is actually a couple of percent faster than the sloop in headwind with dummy sails, making the sloop is outclassed in every situation, sans turning radius.
This is the 1st that I have heard of this. Could you please offer up some evidence to support your claim?
@chlodovicus
Unfortunate that you (correctly) point out that Streamers drive the production of the game more than logically-minded and critically thinking individuals like you and I. It's truly a shame.But, I agree with you. Dummy-sails shouldn't be a thing. And in all reality, from a QA perspective, it is a bug.
@galactic-geek Science like I did, Geek. Get a sloop and a brig and sail directly into headwind with dummy sails on both ships. The brig is slightly faster.
@bizi-betiko said in Please, for the love of sailing-ships, negate the use of "dummy-sails":
@galactic-geek Science like I did, Geek. Get a sloop and a brig and sail directly into headwind with dummy sails on both ships. The brig is slightly faster.
What about wave direction and roughness? Those can adversely affect the experiment due to drift and pull.
@galactic-geek Both ships on same server in column formation with the sloop in front. That will prevent any deviation from affecting one ship over the other.
@galactic-geek said in Please, for the love of sailing-ships, negate the use of "dummy-sails":
@bizi-betiko said in Please, for the love of sailing-ships, negate the use of "dummy-sails":
@galactic-geek Both ships on same server in column formation with the sloop in front. That will prevent any deviation from affecting one ship over the other.
But waves go side-to-side (from NW to SE). Even in that formation, and going directly into the waves, the waves will still hit 1 ship before the other. If either ship passes an island, that too may give that ship an advantage due to calmer waters.
Hello,
OP, it sounds like you're looking for an echo chamber to simply agree with your preconceived notion, and not for any actual discussion about the subject you brought up.
Well, it seems to me that you're offended somehow by the suggestion of a correction of this game-mechanic. Instead of presenting any arguments you simply criticise me for bringing up the subject and naturally stating my point of view. How is that constructive?
If you have any arguments or issues I'll happily debate them with you. Although it would seem that you're not that interested in a sound debate based on your current feedback. Luckily, others are.
Happy Sailing!
@chlodovicus said in Please, for the love of sailing-ships, negate the use of "dummy-sails":
The fact that the ships sail fastest when angling the sail(s) so they are facing the wind, when sailing in an approximate angle 0~45 degrees against the wind, has bugged me since launch.
Anyone I've sailed with knows how much this mechanic irritates me as well.
Despite all the valid reasons regarding technical aspects of game design it pulls me right out of the immersive sailing experience every single time sadly.
I often wondered if they changed the rig of the sloop to a more bermuda/gaff style it might not only 'feel' better but also provide an opportunity to experiment with different sailing styles and tactics.
@katttruewalker
The best that I can see is that they can just make it so that you have to angle the mast to either full starboard or port with a headwind and you have to sail at ~10 degrees off from true headwind and at or near true headwind make the sloop have an arbitrary speed boost to make it able to escape other ships (escape mechanic).@chlodovicus said in Please, for the love of sailing-ships, negate the use of "dummy-sails":
Hello,
OP, it sounds like you're looking for an echo chamber to simply agree with your preconceived notion, and not for any actual discussion about the subject you brought up.
Well, it seems to me that you're offended somehow by the suggestion of a correction of this game-mechanic. Instead of presenting any arguments you simply criticise me for bringing up the subject and naturally stating my point of view. How is that constructive?
If you have any arguments or issues I'll happily debate them with you. Although it would seem that you're not that interested in a sound debate based on your current feedback. Luckily, others are.
Happy Sailing!
The mere fact you jumped to the idea that I'm somehow "offended" really only confirms my accusation. You're not actually "discussing" with anyone, you're insisting that you are correct, even when reasonable counterpoints are brought up against your argument.
The mere fact you jumped to the idea that I'm somehow "offended" really only confirms my accusation. You're not actually "discussing" with anyone, you're insisting that you are correct, even when reasonable counterpoints are brought up against your argument.
Hello,
Thanks for specifying your accusation. Please enlighten me about the specific counterpoints where you believe I'm incorrect. I'll happily clarify my arguments if there's any doubt.
There is a lot of positive feedback in general. And also great constructive feedback, regarding the potential reasons why tweaking this game-mechanic might be a challenge to implement. Furthermore, this thread has also included an argument about the Sloop being the ship that would benefit the most by a tweak; A great argument I alone can't take credit for clarifying.
Happy Sailing!
@chlodovicus My favorite aspect of SOT is actually the sailing part. I would love a much more exciting complex realistic sailing experience however I don’t think that is what Rare is going for. It’s pretty simple straight up game from its sailing to its PvP. I don’t really see them focusing much on sailing realism anytime soon.
This is not real life buddy. Sloops have only 1 advantage and thats it brigs and gallys have many advantages take the one advantage away? No thank you!!!!!It was put in the game to level the playing field. Go pick on ship your own size if you can't catch sloops get over it . This is how it's been for 3 + years and will stay that way some people have no desire to fight and should have 1 option to escape. your suggesting they have zero chance if they don't want to fight. You should just get better to your approach of these ships that can out wit you!
This is not real life buddy. Sloops have only 1 advantage and thats it brigs and gallys have many advantages take the one advantage away? No thank you!!!!!It was put in the game to level the playing field. Go pick on ship your own size if you can't catch sloops get over it . This is how it's been for 3 + years and will stay that way some people have no desire to fight and should have 1 option to escape. your suggesting they have zero chance if they don't want to fight. You should just get better to your approach of these ships that can out wit you!
Hello,
You really haven't grasped what I'm suggesting here. I guess I'll have to repeat myself again.
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I'm really not suggesting more realism. Just that the sailing-mechanics realistically adhere to the logic that's already in the game; i.e. Physics.
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Tweaking the game as I've suggested would essentially strengthen the sloop. Not weaken it. Please read some of the comments in this thread if you need clarification. The sloop would have two options to escape instead of one.
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For me on a Galleon with a competent crew, it's really not that hard to chase down a dummy-sailing sloop. It's very predictable. However, when sloops actually use the wind-mechanics logically they can be very hard, if not impossible to catch.
You have no idea of my skill-level and you just pull your assumptions out of thin air, leading to baseless personal accusations. Since your argument makes no sense in relation to what's actually being suggested here, I encourage you to try again with a bit more knowledge next time. Or not if you don't have any productive feedback.
Happy Sailing!
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@cornelius-ix
I think its perfect the way it is, your changes would make it necessary to constantly adjust sails, not the most exciting thing to do, especially solo or in open crew. Its not a sailing simulator.
Hello,
Whatever floats your boat. But no, the changes I'm suggesting wouldn't make it necessary to constantly adjust sails. This has also been clarified earlier in this thread.
And again, I'm not suggesting turning SoT into a sailing simulator. Please read the thread more thoroughly before commenting.
Happy Sailing!
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