Alliances

@ve111a "4 is the standard xbox party"

What? 4 people parties as being "standard" actually goes back to the N64 days when it had 4 controller ports.

Snes actually supported up to 5 players (with that weird adaptor) and most on-couch coop was always limited to 4 split screen.

Four is just what we have graviated toward and most developers limit us.

Standard party in Overwatch is actually 6 because the teams are 6v6 as set by the developers.

So stating that we are limited to 4 based on typcial xbox party size is a logical error. It games that limit the size.

Rare just balanced the Galleon around 4 players. There is actually no-limit to the number of people you can have on a Galleon operating it at a time (well, maybe by server size). Often when two crews merge they only take one boat. So you have 5+ on a galleon..

The only thing limiting us from having more people on a boat is Rare and if the server can have more people on it.. not necessarily crews/boats.

Also, to cry and say we shouldn't have more then 4 people on a galleon ignores the fact that we already have people forming alliances already. The only limitation is spawn time.

You fix that by increasing spawn time based on how many people you have on your crew. The larger the crew, the longer it takes each individual to respawn off the Ferry.

That is how you balance it.. because the only thing stopping any of the ships from being over the max is the death penalty.

But if you don't expose the extra hands to death..

They just need to increase crew size or let us form alliances. Personally, I think it would be more balanced to increase the crew size.. but, I don't know the technical limitations of the game to say having more people logged into a server is possible, or if it is just simply limited by crew size.

@blyssful-abyss You don't have to reduce the times as to the current levels on each boat.. but once you get over the "max" size that they are currently at.. the respawn time starts to increase.

So, like you have a 150% respawn time having 3 ppl on a sloop... but a 125% increase for having 5 people on a galleon.. adding those 50% or 25% increases to time for each additional crew. So a 7 person galleon would hve 175% respawn time and a 5 person sloop a 250% respawn time. You could do that on mermaid delay also.

There is a way to make it work without making a 1 man sloop unstoppable. And anyway, if a 4 man galleon is getting destroyed by a one-man sloop.. they have their own issues and deserve to lose.

@like-39-ninjas The OP has a title that says alliances, but what he is really asking for is for him to be able to party up as 5 instead of the limit of 4 now.

His solution would also require either 1. Allowing people to invite friends to their servers but on different crews. Or 2. circumventing the friends free servers by commendering another crew and getting a random person to invite their friend to their boat (the current work around) and forming an alliance.

So, balance wise.. actually increasing boat max size with a "balance penalty" is more "fair" then taking up two boat slots on a server to have a 5man crew.

I agree I like the idea of alliances.. but they would have to find a way to make it so a group of friends couldn't basically privatize a server like they can now.

Granted, it is such a low probability.. and would actually decrease that from happening if you just allow 5-6 man crews.

@blyssful-abyss The only real plausable way to realistically get on the same server as your friends is to do the method I described of finding a random and having them invite you on their crew. Then the random leaves and your private group now has 6-8 slots and 2 boats.

Otherwise, you meet randoms and make friends and an alliance forms during that first time. Those are what I would agree to as an alliance I would want to promote.

They just have to be balanced so that a group doesn't take over an entire server.

The chances of that happening decreases if you can find a way to balance an increase crew size to each of the boats. If people are able to add a 5-6th crew member to their boat, they are less likely to do work arounds to the servers keeping friends from logging into each other's servers.

If Rare thought it was balanced to have a group of friends to be able to log into a game with 3 boats, then they would already make it possible to join a friend's server on their own boat.

@blyssful-abyss I'm really not against alliances... heck, I've even called for a cool way to have them implimented.

https://www.seaofthieves.com/forum/topic/64716/alliance-building-multicrew-new-handshake-mechanic

Your concern about the server wide sharing could be solved by splitting the loot between crews.. so that say a $100 castaway chest gets turned in... a 2 crew alliance would only get $50 each. This would have a natural deterrant from doing too much alliance forming because the payout would be less.

I just decided to play devils advocate as to the downsides of having alliances forming and to give voice to the legitimate complaints regarding alliances.

I just feel if they are going to open the door to friends joining friends servers.. and do so with alliances.. there must be some reason why they just haven't done it yet. Why is that? Why do they make it so hard to join a server your friend is already playing on? Why restrict crew size to 4 on a galleon, but allow non-crew to help on the boat thus making crew limits basically pointless.

See, the design choice is puzzling.. unless they are purposly trying to deter alliances from forming for some reason.

In order to get them to impliment alliances, we have to know what gameplay element that having an alliance has on the game that breaks the game. Or what about having multiple people on one boat breaks the balance of combat that they have to deter it.

When we brainstorm solutions to the problem.. THEN we'll speed up their solution.

@m1sterpunch See, I'm not exactly sure what the point of adding an alliance to the game if you can't turn off friendly fire for an alliance.

Right now if you want to split the loot.. you just.. split the loot and each turn in your own stuff. You can already hurt a non alliance person.

So, if thats the kind of alliance you want to build.. then you are basically against anything changing.

The main reason I want to alliance with another crew is so I can do things without worrying about killing them in the middle of a fight.. be it against skellies, or against another crew.

Without it.. its kinda pointless to do anything different then what we have now.

@m1sterpunch I can agree with everything you said. I think that might be the main reason why they haven't inplimented alliances and why they also keep crews limited to 4 on a galleon and make it very difficult for friends to get on the same server.. pvp balance.

But if Rare does agree to alliances.. which it seems that they are on the verge of doing soon... It seems like they are no longer worried about pvp balance getting thrown out the window.

Because, if you don't institute the ability to turn off friendly fire (and I don't mean ship to ship, just person to person) then there isn't a point in doing an alliance different then what we have been doing.

So back to my original point is.. if they are not worried about pvp balance to the point of adding alliances.. why are we limited to 4 man galleon sizes. An alliance will only have a disadvantage because of having to spawn on a different boat. Why not allow 5-6 man galleons if we are going to allow that? It seems more fair and more balanced if we adjust the respawn time so a 6man preform galleon can compete against a 6man alliance on one boat... but still not be any more overpowering to a 2man sloop. (cause a 6man alliance will destroy a sloop and that will have been determined to be ok by the dev team)

@m1sterpunch Blinderbust damage was nerfed because it wasn't fun to be one-shot all the time, not because of pvp balance. Pvp balance the blunderbust was fine because everyone had access to it in a 1v1.. had nothing to do with group balance.

Ok, so if you make alliances so you can share the loot you turn in with other crews.. you are going to have to penalize it some way or you'll have the entire server being in an alliance. You have to somehow balance it so that you don't get an actual advantage being in an alliance.

That means they will have to split the amount of an item equally between crews.

So.................... you split it up physically like you do now.. its the same thing. Again, no point in changing the setup now to form some "alliance" if there is nothing gonna change.

The number 1 thing needed to form an alliance is no friendly fire. Otherwise the system how it works now is the only system that is balanced and we'll have to continue to have the servers friend locked.

We don't want that.. we want to play with bigger groups then 4. We want to group up with people we meet friendly on the seas so we don't accidently kill them while we are running voyages together.

@m1sterpunch I kinda went off a tangent and missed the point about alliances being unbalanced.

The way you balance an alliance.. is to increase crew size per boat.

If you don't increase the number of people per boat to match that of people in an alliance.. you will only be able to fight an alliance with another alliance.. because it is the number of people and their skill that balance things.

A 4 man sloop can compete against a 4 man galleon... they actually have the better boat.. if all things equal.. without a respawn penalty.. a sloop will win all the time.

A equally skilled 4 man crew against a 2 man sloop.. that really is in favor of the galleon head to head. The galleon just has more manpower to overtake the sloop. A two man can sink a galleon... but it requires the 2 man to be a better team and the galleon to be disorganized.

A two man sloop will almost always beat a 2 man galleon. Because of the boat advantage and equal number of people.

But you give the galleon a better spawn advantage over a 4 man sloop.. then the galleon is on equal footing. This happens frequently on 4 man sloops now because if half the crew dies.. they are completely gone from the fight cause they respawn wherever they left their boat.

@like-39-ninjas said in Alliances:

@puck269 I personally just want automatic loot splitting, and maybe friendly fire disabled for forts, exclusively. You can split loot manually, but it becomes tedious and is never quite equal due to large value ranges. Though the ranges for stronghold chest and skull are equal, the actual payout is typically 1-2k different.

As for friendly fire, I like the idea of keeping it off for fleets in combat. I would however be pretty happy with disabling it while allied crews are on an active fort. Keep it off when not actually standing on the fort island, so combat is still fair between enemy crews fighting to take the fort.

Another point is that currently a crew's ship needs to be at an outpost in order to turn in loot. In think in a fleet scenario, all allied ships would have to be within range to cash in. That would prevent fleets from circumventing this mechanic.

I'm not exactly sure your ship needs to be in range to turn in loot. I haven't tested this, but playing solo I've jumped off my boat plenty of times and let it sail off and still be able to turn in items. It is actually one of the best solo tactics to use when being pursued. I've also turned things in when my ship has been sunk. Then there is also the merchant quest work around where you used to be able to stand at one outpost and guarente that the outpost that came up was the one that your crewmate was at... I believe the fix was that the outposts were more randomized, not that your ship had to be in range.

That said.. I want my alliance to do more then just skellie forts.. I want it to be able to assist me in all the events around the map.. also for a programming perspective.. it will be much easier to install my friendly fire toggle idea in my alliance suggeston post than it would be to try and piece meal safe zones all over the map in random spots whenever there is a crew coop event going on..

@m1sterpunch said in Alliances:

@puck269 said in Alliances:

Blinderbust damage was nerfed because it wasn't fun to be one-shot all the time, not because of pvp balance.

You can still one shot with the blunder if aimed. Damage of each pellet was reduced from the beta so that it takes a bit more skill to do and to balance it with other weapons.

Ok, so if you make alliances so you can share the loot you turn in with other crews.. you are going to have to penalize it some way or you'll have the entire server being in an alliance. You have to somehow balance it so that you don't get an actual advantage being in an alliance.

Loot tax like I said before. Items are worth about 75% of what they normally are but all allied crew get a cut.

That means they will have to split the amount of an item equally between crews.

No. That would be pointless. and the same as no alliance at all.

So.................... you split it up physically like you do now.. its the same thing. Again, no point in changing the setup now to form some "alliance" if there is nothing gonna change.

See above.

The number 1 thing needed to form an alliance is no friendly fire. Otherwise the system how it works now is the only system that is balanced and we'll have to continue to have the servers friend locked.

Disagree. If you allow more crew per ship than actually required to operate it, people won't bother with fleets they'll just have stupid over powered single ships that are unstoppable.

We don't want that.. we want to play with bigger groups then 4. We want to group up with people we meet friendly on the seas so we don't accidently kill them while we are running voyages together.

Who's the we? This is your opinion of what you want in the game. I'm just giving you an example of why it's game breaking.
That's the inherent risk involved in having the benefit of a multicrew alliance.

The way you balance an alliance.. is to increase crew size per boat.

So on a server that has no alliances you just have the ability of 6man galleons and 4man sloops? No thanks. And if alliances could have ridiculous crews then you'd have a team of 4 man sloops.

A 4 man sloop can compete against a 4 man galleon... they actually have the better boat.. if all things equal.. without a respawn penalty.. a sloop will win all the time.

4 man sloops would be cancer and most would quit the game because 4 players on a sloop would be unsinkable with enough planks.

A two man sloop will almost always beat a 2 man galleon. Because of the boat advantage and equal number of people.

No one playing seriously would 2 man crew a galleon

Alliances should be shaky and not absolute. Otherwise fleets will too easily be able to take over a server. This is why the drawbacks are necessary.

I think basically a bonus on everything turned in during an alliance would still make an alliance a tactic that would make server wide alliances the norm.

If two crews each had a $100 castaway chest on their ship in a non-alliance.. they would each get $100. But if you made an alliance between the two.. and they turned in the same chests, each crew would get $150 in your example of a 75% cut. You spread that between 4 ships, your talking $300 for everyone.. for each getting 1 castaway chest. I hope this explains why you HAVE to balance alliance turn in yield by splitting the normal amount equally between crews.

Now, for a 6 man alliance verse a 6 man galleon.

Both have advantages and disavantages in both combat and not. It has to do with the number of boats.

In combat, A 6man crew (and remember I suggest balancing that by having a 150% increased spawn time for everyone) has an advantage by allowing themselves to repair their boat faster then a 4man galleon. If the 6man alliance is split between two "balanced" boats. The alliance has the advantage of tactics by having two boats. You put all 6 in both situations on one boat.. the 6 man alliance has a special spawn penalty.. because 2 of their crew are basically perma deathed, but 4 spawn faster then the 6 man crew.

For questing, having a 50/50 split.. the two boat alliance can actually do 1 multi island voyages faster by splitting up the crews and doing it faster. The alliance also has the ability to run more then one mission at a time.

The 6 man crew is limited to one boat, but 100% return. It has to do with playstyle, not balance.. if you want a slow fun time with your friends, you'd do a 6man ship.. you can protect yourself better and just have a more laidback time. An alliance you'd have to be fast paced playstyle. Both are balanced with each other and neither has an advantage over each other except what suits the 6 people's playstyle.

As for the 4 man sloop... I've said before.. a 4 man sloop is a powerful thing against a 4 man galleon. However, it already exists. Nothing is stopping a 4man alliance all jumping on a sloop.

So what is the difference between a 4man sloop crew and a 4 man alliance on a sloop?

Right now, half the crew dies, it is permadeath. However, if you have the 2 people that do not spawn on the boat stay on the boat.. and the other two being the attacking.. you don't face the disadvantage of the crew spawning. You'd have to land a direct cannon shot, or board to kill them. But then you end up facing two boats when they respawn.

So that's live.. a 4 man sloop is allowed and powerful.

So, why shouldn't you be able to get 4 friends together and be able to sloop? If you balance it against a 4 sloop alliance.. then the only difference is again, respawning. This is why you institute the respawn penalty to the oversized crew. Having a 200% respawn time will severely balance out the crew

Now, you say that the right now, the unoffical alliance is balanced out by having to deal with friendly fire.

Sure, but a organized crew will split up their attack with proper attack cells that won't have that penalty. They will also be comfortable enough with the gamertags not to attack their friendly crew. It is only a disadvantage that disorganized crews face and thus is an unoptimal balance factor. In those cases the x factor is crew experience. Doesn't matter, in experience and skill were equal, a 6 man alliance will always defeat a 4man galleon.. So claiming that distraction and friendly fire between crews is balance out the man advantage of grouping is false.

I will admit, if they leave spawn time the same between a max crew and an oversized crew.. having larger crew sizes will make a balance issue.

Likewise, if you have an oversize crew on a server.. you should be able to form an alliance with other crews to take on the threat to balance them out.

If they balance boats around "max" crew size compared to max crew size of another.. then they will still be balanced if you make penalties to an oversized crew as compared to an oversized crew in an alliance.

Turning friendly fire off for an alliance will not be balance breaking. You can already coordinate strike teams around making that disadvantage moot.