The real reasons behind larger sloop crews, and why they're a good idea.

  • There has been a LOT of talk about larger sloop crews, and most people seem to be against it because of balance concerns. I believe that this is shortsighted, and that the real reasons for this change are completely unrelated to balance. So bear with me and allow me to start my argument with a little allegory.

    Imagine you're a waiter (a server, so to speak) in a restaurant. You have tables for 1-2 and tables for 3-4 people. However, your boss is very strict about the layout of the restaurant, and so he does not allow you to move the tables in any way. He also demands that tables must always have the right amount of people, and people are not allowed to switch to a different table. For you as a waiter (server), that means a lot of stress. Say, for example, someone is eating alone, but then two of his friends want to join them. Because of the strict rules, you must demand that the single person pays and leaves the restaurant first, only then can he come back in with his two friends so they can be seated at a table for three. At another table, a group of four people is enjoying their dinner. Eventually, two of them have to leave, but the remaining two have a really great time. Since your boss demands that tables must always be filled to capacity, you continue to place strangers at their table. However, those two don't like that, they'd rather keep to themselves. Unfortunately, you are not allowed to just remove the unused table making up half of the 4 person spot. So if those two want to keep to themselves, they too have to pay, leave the restaurant, then come back in immediately to be seated at a table for two. What a hassle!
    Two new people walk in. They had made a reservation for four, but the other two are going to be a bit late. Since you're not allowed to place them at a table of four and reserve the two empty chairs, they decide to sit at a table for two while waiting for their friends. After an hour, their friends arrive, so the two pay, walk out, then walk back in as a group of four to receive the appropriate table. After a while, one of them disappears to the bathroom but never returns. Desperate to fulfill your bosses orders, you place a stranger at the same table, but he immediately starts throwing everyones drinks on the floor, so the three original guests lock him in a closet, where the stranger proceeds to play a hurdy gurdy while yelling racial slurs. What a mess!

    If the above sounds really confusing and like a really stressfull job to you, that's because it is. But that is more or less the exact situation the SoT servers must be dealing with. Because of the rigid structure of the matchmaking and party system, people constantly have to create new sessions for playing with their varying amounts of friends. I'm not an expert on servers, but I can imagine that constantly closing and starting new sessions puts a lot more stress on the systems than running sessions for longer and just adding or removing clients occasionally.
    I believe that this could be one of the major reasons why Rare announced they want to allow smaller sizes for galleon crews and larger sizes for sloop crews, in addition to allowing vote kicks and private crews. With this change in place, groups of friends could simply adjust their crew size in response to how many of them want to play together while staying in an active session. Instead of constantly closing and creating new ones, the server could keep one session running and just add/remove players accordingly.

    In addition to being beneficial to the servers, the announced change would also make the gameplay a lot more immersive and smooth, because it would not have to be interrupted to start or stop playing with your friends. Just put yourself in the restaurant I described above. Imagine you are sitting at the bar alone, but you get to know some people at the table next to you. However, to join them, all of you must pay and leave first, then come back in. That would be incredibly irritating, and in real life, you'd probably never go to that place again. Why should it not be possible to just pull up another chair and join that group right there at their table?

    To put it in Sea of Thieves terms: it would be a much more enjoyable experience for everyone if players could seamlessly join each other in their ongoing sessions, instead of being limited to rigid crew sizes and having to quit their session and start a new one. It would also probably alleviate a lot of stress from the servers.
    So as you can see, there is an entirely different side to the argument about larger sloop crews, but I have not really seen it mentioned anywhere. I would like to ask you all to take a break from worrying about PvP balance and consider this side of the story for a moment. In this light, it makes a boatload of sense to allow flexible crews, including larger sloop crews, to facilitate a more fluid gameplay experience for everyone by reducing the time spent in menus and loading screens and relieving stress from the servers.

    "But 4 man sloops would be OP!!1"
    I don't want this thread to turn into yet another pointless discussion about wether 4 man sloops would be OP or not. So all I'm going to do is ask you again to take a step back, and think about some solutions to allow this very necessary change Rare announced AND keep 4 man sloops balanced. I believe that it's quite easily possible to keep 4 man sloops balanced, and that there are more subtle solutions than to outright not make an otherwise very positive change to the game. So far, Rare has done an incredible job at balancing this game. They've been in the industry for decades, they have some serious talent in their teams. I trust them to make sensible decisions and to do both, allow flexible crews on ALL ships while also keeping the balance in tact.

    Let us, as a community, stand together to support Rare. Let us find a solution that keeps the game balanced, while also allowing us more seamless experiences with our friends. Let us not fight each other or jump to conclusions about what would or would not be OP. I think we're all debating so passionately because we really love this game and want to see it succeed. Lets work together to make that happen.

    Thanks fer readin', lads! I know pirates 'ave a hard time wit' that!

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  • @nebenkuh Thank you, well said. As for balance solutions, I think the solution to the unsinkable ship complaint would be to increase the cannonball damage to the crew members below deck fixing the boat. Right now someone down there only takes a sliver of damage with a direct hit and knocked back for couple of seconds before going back to fixing holes. He doesn't even need to eat a banana. Those cannon hits should hurt enough to force you to stop and eat a banana and more should out right kill you. Currently you have to board the boat and spawn kill them over and over to stop them from fixing it. Should help with sea combat as a whole.

  • You just performed brain surgery when you could've easily prescribed lockable private lobbies.

    friends on there way? talk to the shipwright if you need a new ship and you can stay

    My rare tip screen poetry isn't great but seriously, strange argument.

  • @gloog said in The real reasons behind larger sloop crews, and why they're a good idea.:

    You just performed brain surgery when you could've easily prescribed lockable private lobbies.

    friends on there way? talk to the shipwright if you need a new ship and you can stay

    My rare tip screen poetry isn't great but seriously, strange argument.

    This makes a lot more sense than some terrible restaurant analogy that doesn't take balance into consideration, or the fact nobody will want to sail a galleon if the smaller more maneuverable ship with less crew responsibility can hold 4 people.

  • Please insert a

    TLDR:

    So I can read....

  • @drunkpunk138 said in The real reasons behind larger sloop crews, and why they're a good idea.:

    @gloog said in The real reasons behind larger sloop crews, and why they're a good idea.:

    You just performed brain surgery when you could've easily prescribed lockable private lobbies.

    friends on there way? talk to the shipwright if you need a new ship and you can stay

    My rare tip screen poetry isn't great but seriously, strange argument.

    This makes a lot more sense than some terrible restaurant analogy that doesn't take balance into consideration, or the fact nobody will want to sail a galleon if the smaller more maneuverable ship with less crew responsibility can hold 4 people.

    @Shambow tldr

  • This is a bad example with the restaurant... If someone is alone and then will be joined by 2 friends, you just have to make him wait...

    Also an update is planned to allow people to launch alone and make your crew joined only by people you'll invite...

    At least, it's not possible, because YES, a sloop with 3 or 4 people would be unbalanced. The ship is made to 2 people max. You can't rebalance it without make it unbalanced for a solo player or 4 players crew, or against galleon, it's not possible, even now in my opinion, it doesn't fill quickly enough yet when water floods it.

    When the update will launch, then you'll just have to launch with a galleon and wait for your teamates. Launch with a sloop would only allow you to play with one friend, there's no need to think because something which work for a solo player or a crew of 2 in this ship, will not work for a bigger crew, it's just logical.

  • I would also like to point out that it's not hard to adjust server architecture to better handle things like people disconnectnig and reconnecting to get a larger crew. Authentication is where the bigger issues come into play, anyway, but if they performed any work on the servers at launch, by this point it should be more than capable of handling this. It's not like players reconnect every 5 minutes (unless they're skull fort hopping, at which point they're creating a bigger problem for the servers than anyone else).

  • Unsinkable ships a problem? How about a real damage model where ships get destroyed instead of have tiny holes poked in them. Ships are already unsinkable unless HUGE mistakes are made.

  • @nebenkuh love the analogy and how would 4 man sloop be op? they have 1 cannon to fire it can't possibly sink a galleon unless the galleon is stupid.

  • @gloog
    Well, that works too, I guess.
    I just wanted people to start thinking about the server side argument. :)

    @DrunkPunk138
    Balance is simply of no concern to that point of view. If we think about this in terms of fluent gameplay, it makes sense to allow every crew size on every ship, and to allow changing ships at the shipwright. If we agree that maximum player freedom is desirable, we can think of how to balance it afterwards. If we think about balance from the get go, we may seriously limit ourselves in our experiences.

    @Grievous32
    "You can't rebalance it without make it unbalanced for a solo player or 4 players crew"
    Maybe you just can't think of a way right now. This is why we can come together in this thread to think of solutions, not post the same arguments we've all read a thousand times. :)

  • @drunkpunk138 the galleon is faster and more lethal. With a crew of 4, after the novelty wore off of the 4 man sloop a galleon would prove to be a better vessel if dealing with a full crew of competent pirates

  • make people have responsibilities. Make people work sails. Make them work or walk the plank to earn their stay.

    Most able captains can manage 2 man galleon for some time. Perhaps not PvP all night but its not impossible.

    I dislike having people in game doing nothing but dancing off. Its a responsibility for all ships and crews to be in synch.

    2 man sloop for one or two people only. Advantage speed and maneuvering
    3 man sloops with 2 sails (can sail with 2-3 total- never one) - Faster - less maneuvering but skilled at battle- 2 x 2 cannons each side with one mountable cannon for stern or bow.
    3 man minimum Galleon-
    3-4 man has 4 x 4 cannon set options
    5 man on ship opens up second desk below for cannons- while they will be still 4 x 4 each deck- the lower deck has less aiming ability
    Also 5 man galleons receive 2 shots of damage per one received so one shot that hits the middle deck will create one hole lower deck. One low deck shot however is one shot- think of if a 5 man crew gets shot at by a 3 man sloop- receiving any damage on the low deck cannons should give bonus damage because damn - thats alot of cannons getting shot from that ship

  • @nebenkuh I think about everything in this game since I play it (February 2017). There's no way this could work.

    I'll ask you some questions...

    Why sloops and galleons, at this moment, are really well balanced ?

    Why a sloop can't have more players and why a galleon can't have more players too ?

    I'll answer it later if you don't really have the right answer, but it's very simple, I'm pretty sure you know why.

  • @grievous32
    "There's no way this could work."
    People said that about flying just over 100 years ago, and here we are with private companies close to launching people into commercial space flights.

    By the way, I specifically asked to not turn the thread into this type of limiting discussion. People never got anywhere by claiming something would be impossible. Let's instead figure out how to make it possible.

  • @grim042
    I like that idea.
    I could also see cannonballs making two holes when fired from up close. They already pass through waves a bit, would make sense if they would go into a sloop on one side and out the other, leaving an entry and an exit hole. But that would probably be very tough for small crews to handle.

  • Ohh, that was a tough analogy to stomach, but I think I get the idea.. lol.
    Look here, I sail a sloop in solo and pairs, and it is glorious.. ha. Give me two more pirates on the crew, and oh my, I will dominate.. Countless scenarios are racing through my head.. ha!

    There does seem to be a simple solution and still meet your idea....
    If your bringing a third (or fourth) player in, you should be required to go to the Shipwright. Scuttle your Sloop and spawn in a Galleon. Then your new crew mates are allowed to spawn in. Same in reverse.. down to two (haha toto), scuttle the Galleon, spawn a sloop.

    As much as I would love a 4 crew Sloop, the damage I could cause would certainly tip the scales!!!

  • @nebenkuh You didn't answer my question...

    Anyway... This is simple : the number of interactive elements on the ship.

    As @Shambow said, ships are made to always give something to do to each members of the crew. There's one sail, one wheel, two cannons (and not a lot of chance to use them both at the same time)... Then one use the wheel, another use the cannon, a 3rd use the sail, the 4th repair the ship ?

    It just can't work, you can't make it balanced without changing the ship by adding new things to do, but if you change this, then solo players will have a lot of difficulties. I play solo on a galleon one day for 1 hour and 30 minutes... It was really difficult and... not boring but this is long to do everything (set 3 sails, the wheel, the anchor (because yes, you don't raise or drop the sails when you're alone, you don't have time to do it)).

    Everything work now because of the number of interactive elements, if you don't change it, it will not work, it's just a fact. You can think about everything, I already did it, if you change something to make it balanced for 4 players, it will be unbalanced for 1 player.

    You have to accept if people always give the same argument, this is because there's nothing more to say about it...

  • Id say it would be shortsighted for Rare to not keep the game balanced. This is the first game that rare will have to keep balanced like this so we can hope that they recognize when they make a poor balance decision and will get better at it

  • @imaelstrom
    I could not think of any other analogy that would be absurd enough. :)

    I think your solution would defenitely work from the start, and it would not require any tweaking of the ship mechanics. I even thought about having new crew members spawn at the nearest outpost and not on the active ship, so you'd have to go pick them up. Would make sense, kinda like signing on new sailors!
    However, in the long run I would love to be able to sail any ship with any number of mates. It would allow for a more diverse set of playstyles and tactics, and allow crews to change and spice up their gameplay should they so desire. I believe that when we have more than two ships to choose, potential balance issues will become less glaring anyway.
    Right now it's either sloop or galleon, and the two are only measured against each other. Add a third or fourth or even fifth ship into the mix and it all becomes much less extreme.

  • @nebenkuh Balance aside (which I do think is an issue with 4 man sloops). I can quite easily see the galleon becoming a very rare sight on the seas when there's a more maneuverable and far easier to manage sloop for 4 people to jump in to.

    I just think that 4 man sloops will ruin the trade off originally designed between sloops and galleons.

  • @nebenkuh said in The real reasons behind larger sloop crews, and why they're a good idea.:

    @grievous32
    "There's no way this could work."
    People said that about flying just over 100 years ago, and here we are with private companies close to launching people into commercial space flights.

    By the way, I specifically asked to not turn the thread into this type of limiting discussion. People never got anywhere by claiming something would be impossible. Let's instead figure out how to make it possible.

    First of all I'd like to say your original post is a terrible analogy. This is one of the most self indulgent run on posts I've ever read. I don't know how long it took you to think up this junk. Completely disagree since the analogy is hairbrained at best.

    On to the post I quoted. You're basically telling people not to post if they disagree with you. It's a public forum of course people are going to disagree with you and post their opinion. Again the flight analogy is terrible in this situation. Just because you want this 4 person sloop to be possible doesnt mean we all have to only post ideas to make it possible. Some of us dont want to see a 4 person sloop for various reasons. You didn't take balance into consideration at all yet don't want people to discuss that aspect regarding this topic. OK so you basically don't want people to make points that go against your ideas. You don't want a discussion you just want others to agree with you or get out. Sorry it doesn't work that way.

  • @luciansanchez82
    I do appreciate these concerns. My goal with this thread is to nudge the discussion away from "let's not do this" to "let's do this in a good way!".

    I'm sure there are plenty of ways to keep the galleon the ship of choice for most large crews. Of the top of my head that could be voyages that demand the use of a certain type of ship, a small loot bonus for using the heavier ship, bigger cannons.. the debate should be more constructive, I'm sure the community could come up with great ideas if most people would stop being so negative. :)

  • @dewradley
    Feel free to come up with a better analogy.
    If you're against positive change, that's fine, but this thread isnt the place for that. We've had hundreds of threads amounting to "4 man sloop OP, dont do it". I say it's time for one thread to explore how to make it work.
    If you think allowing more player freedom and the ability to adjust crew size ingame instead of starting new sessions is a bad idea, kindly explain yourself. Otherwise, it seems you did not really understand the goal of this thread, and I've said nowhere that people should not disagree with me, or get out, or anything of the sort.

  • @nebenkuh said in The real reasons behind larger sloop crews, and why they're a good idea.:

    @dewradley
    Feel free to come up with a better analogy.
    If you're against positive change, that's fine, but this thread isnt the place for that. We've had hundreds of threads amounting to "4 man sloop OP, dont do it". I say it's time for one thread to explore how to make it work.
    If you think allowing more player freedom and the ability to adjust crew size ingame instead of starting new sessions is a bad idea, kindly explain yourself. Otherwise, it seems you did not really understand the goal of this thread, and I've said nowhere that people should not disagree with me, or get out, or anything of the sort.

    I feel there are other ways to adjust crew size without having 4 people on a sloop. If we could choose what ship to use at the shipwright that would allow what size of crew could play. That way we could avoid the issue with balancing a 4 player sloop altogether.

    "If you're against positive change, that's fine, but this thread isnt the place for that." This statement would insinuate that a 4 person sloop is automatically a positive change. If anyone disagrees that it is a positive change then this thread isn't the place to voice that? Sorry but yes you are basically telling people not to disagree with you by using statements like this.

  • @dewradley
    Dynamic crew size and increased player freedom is the positive change I was referring to. Sorry if that was not clear.
    In my opinion, that includes larger sloop crews, but if there are other solutions, like changing your ship at the shipwright to change crew size, that could work too.

    It's simply my sincere believe that the greatest amount of player freedom will lead to the best gameplay experiences. So I'd rather think about balancing around that instead of limiting options from the get go.

  • @nebenkuh I don't believe making a sloop larger is the right way to go it will surely break the delicate balance. I think people need to be patient and wait for the new ship this summer which will almost certainly be a middle class ship. The sloop as it is right now is a beast on the high seas. With a compotent crew you can easily take out a galleon. If your bottom half floods it only takes 3 barrels to clear that out and 2 seconds to fetch water and drop it off. This is easily accomplished now with 2 people. If you add more then you will have someone constantly on repairs and bailing and the sloop will only sink after running out of planks. My Crewmate @DrunkPunk138 and I have on numerous occasion taken down full crewed Galleons with a sloop, we take massive damage and can easily heal through it. I speak from experience and although I would love having an easy time i feel it would ruin the game for everyone and break the balance. Galleons would become obsolete. Give people freedom to change their ship at the ship merchant and upgrade to a galleon when we get private parties so you don't have to back out or a new ship type but don't ruin the balance of the sloop. I see more people are against this then for it thankfully.

  • @ve111a
    I can work with the idea to change ships at outposts, but ultimately it would not be as seamless as allowing any crew on any ship. What if your friends are duo slooping and in the middle of a fort? You'd still have to wait for them to finish.

    I've heard all of the arguments against large sloop crews, I've made some of them myself, I've made more in favour of it. My personal belief is that the concerns are exaggerated and that 4 man sloops would not become the galleon sinking killer machines everyone makes them out to be. If we would get 4 man sloops right now, sure, it would be the flavour of the month and everyone would run 4 man sloops for a while and shout about how they were right. Then it would eventually revert back to a more equal distribution of ships because at least skilled crews will prefer the faster galleon. Or maybe it won't and the 4 man sloop will indeed be OP as hell, then you can all tell me I was wrong. I would just rather try it out, maybe have a few tweaks here and there, instead of outright dismissing it and being robbed of a potentially great opportunity.
    Crews should pick a ship depending on how they want to play that day. They shouldn't have to play a certain meta just because that's the only ship that was available for their number of players. In my book, these considerations outweigh balancing issues that can easily be fixed by tweaking existing mechanics or changing integers in the code somewhere. :)

  • @unkeptbean6214 said in The real reasons behind larger sloop crews, and why they're a good idea.:

    @nebenkuh love the analogy and how would 4 man sloop be op? they have 1 cannon to fire it can't possibly sink a galleon unless the galleon is stupid.

    A four man sloop has two extra buccaneers to form a boarding party.
    Pull up to a fort and load up on powder kegs, place a shiny skull in your ships window, and bait a galleon to chase.
    You could deploy boarders via cannon without any loss of combat readiness.

  • @nebenkuh personally I don't agree on many levels the most simple being if you have a larger crew you need a larger ship. Look at it from this way. Compare just the anchors first it takes one person like what 5 seconds to raise an anchor on a sloop? It takes them like 30 on a galleon. Everything on the galleon takes longer because its a team ship because you have 4 people. A larger ship takes team work and it wouldn't make sense to simulate that by increasing times only on a 4 man sloop. This game is about teamwork and a sloop requires less because it's easier to man and maneuver it has less firepower but more flexibility. If you add more people it will give it more fire power and make it leagues better then a well manned galleon.

  • @nebenkuh said in The real reasons behind larger sloop crews, and why they're a good idea.:
    In my book, these considerations outweigh balancing issues that can easily be fixed by tweaking existing mechanics or changing integers in the code somewhere. :)

    nothing should ever outweigh balance

  • @ve111a
    How would more people add more firepower? It would be the same ship.
    If nothing should outweigh balance, we should just have one ship and allow only 4 man crews and give everyone the same two weapons. That's not the case tho, because fun gameplay was more important than balance. :)

  • @nebenkuh said in The real reasons behind larger sloop crews, and why they're a good idea.:

    @ve111a
    How would more people add more firepower? It would be the same ship.
    If nothing should outweigh balance, we should just have one ship and allow only 4 man crews and give everyone the same two weapons. That's not the case tho, because fun gameplay was more important than balance. :)

    it's fun right now because it is balanced. You can have balance with variety. Look at many shooters out there they give you an arsenal to choose from and they are still more or less balanced. More fire power doesn't only equate to cannons, It can also mean boarding parties. Theoretically in my case if we had a for man galleon I would have @DrunkPunk138 on the wheel, another friend on the cannon someone bailing water and I constantly be going for boarding. The reason I don't always board now is because the balance doesn't allow for it, My ship staying bailed and patched outweighs their anchor being dropped, I'm needed elsewhere.

  • I like this point, it is probably why the servers lag once and awhile and the constant disconnections and almondbeards. They can adjust the balancing because thats the majority of worries as need be. But I like the point you did make about stressing the servers out because if im doing solos, gotta leave to add a friend in....and a friend later on gets on...gotta leave then make a galleon 3 man...we want a random because too much work...gotta leave AGAIN make a 4 man....instead of...4 man sloop private plow through voyages, set it up once, and maybe friends might get on then I can invite them as they get on/off

  • @onyx-wartooth said in The real reasons behind larger sloop crews, and why they're a good idea.:

    I like this point, it is probably why the servers lag once and awhile and the constant disconnections and almondbeards. They can adjust the balancing because thats the majority of worries as need be. But I like the point you did make about stressing the servers out because if im doing solos, gotta leave to add a friend in....and a friend later on gets on...gotta leave then make a galleon 3 man...we want a random because too much work...gotta leave AGAIN make a 4 man....instead of...4 man sloop private plow through voyages, set it up once, and maybe friends might get on then I can invite them as they get on/off

    This is such a non issue, though, and certainly not the cause of lag. If a server can't handle a person disconnecting and someone else reconnecting, there are much larger issues. This is really reaching for a reason to justify this, and is factually false.

    If anything, people server hopping for skull forts would cause the bigger hit to the authentication servers and they would be scrambling to fix that, because those people reconnect CONSTANTLY, way more than a crew who suddenly gets a fourth online. But apparently they don't consider that an issue, so....

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