Galleons, Ship, and Armament: Naval Battles

  • xDreegan
    Ship Mate

    So, let me get straight to the point. Battles between Galleons can be fun... but often, they are not.

    Me and my crew of 4, during the period of time during the beta that turning in voyages, chests and other goodies wasn't getting us paid, decided to have some fun. WE'LL TERRORIZE THE SEAS! Not the first time we've attempted this, but this time was gonna be different. We were gonna be out for blood. And during this time, we sunk a few Galleons and Sloops, and were well supplied until we weren't. And I have to say, what started out as fun, began to become extremely tedious.

    • There's something to be said about probably one of the biggest draws of this game becoming a literal grind. During our time terrorizing the waters wherever we found a ship, I learned a few things about this game and it's naval combat.

    • A battle between two Galleons, is less about the skill of the crew, and more about the sheer amount of resources you have on deck to survive it. Especially considering you're gonna find WAY more boards than you will cannonballs (Anecdotal)

    • I didn't find a single point in us blasting away at other ships that cumulative actually mattered, unless you ended up sailing yourself into an actual storm.

    • If an "enemy" Galleon doesn't want to fight you, there's nothing you can do about it, unless you just want to sail around behind them for 30+ minutes at a time and hope that they just give up.

    • You absolutely need a boarding party if you wanna put any amount of damage on that ship. Either by anchoring, or if you're really good putting a gunpowder barrel on their ship (usually by sacrificing that crew member, and hoping one of their cannon balls doesn't ignite it on yours.

    • Buckets are crazy strong right now. You never really need more than 1 person taking care of water and repairs. Only when we had 4 holes in our hull did we need a second person to help manage the water. And this was normally during a period of time in which we weren't getting fired upon. I.E After a broadside pass between Galleons, or an extended circling.

    • A Galleon lacks speed unless it's with the wind. Anchor turning is a must, but you need all 4 crew mates to raise it up and it will take forever regardless. Without the wind at your back, and being able to sail alongside another ship, the Galleon's "firepower advantage" is more or less wasted, and isn't as much of a threat as originally perceived.

    Ideas to help alleviate this issue

    1. Rudder Damage - I noticed one time that my Helmsman accidentally scrapped a shore with the bottom of our ship that our Rudder actually had a cannonball damage texture placed on it. Granted, this was obviously just for show as it didn't have an affect on our ship, but, I think it would be a neat idea to be able to damage ships in various ways to help hinder or limit mobility in terms of steering, or speed.

    It would also give a really neat strategy with a properly dropped Gunpowder Barrel (Btw, please let us throw these instead of dropping them) and an Eye of Reach, or a crackshot with a pistol to steer away from a fight after disabling your opponents ability to immediate chase you.

    1. Increasing Armaments on Ships - Being able to upgrade your ships with various other devices: Chasers (Long Nines), Swivel Guns, Rear hatches for gunpowder barrels, or even some Chain Shot in order to disrupt the masts and rigging.

    While I don't expect all of this at once, or at all, I would imagine that these guns and shots would be rather expensive to equip to your ship, as well as maintain. Being able to purchase ammunition and gunpowder barrels from the Shipwright would certainly help add another gold-sink to the game besides cosmetics. And while I agree with Rare's decision to not exactly let players "buy power", I find the fantasy of being a very well known and successful "Pirate Legend" a bit soft if my super epic ship functions no differently than a regular fresh in the water Galleon.

    1. Hull Reinforcements - Adding in a bit more weight to your ship, affecting it's speed, but requiring more shots, or more powerful shots to breach the hull would add an interesting mix as well to how you and your crew designate what your ship can and can't do. Weigh yourself down with too much armor and weaponry and you might end up being a sitting duck for a smaller ship with an experienced boarding party. Or making you take on water much faster from the weight.

    2. Naval Rams - The last easy to figure out suggestion I have here would be for the obvious ability to really sink your ships teeth into another to put some serious hurting on their hull. You already run the risk of having your ship torn to pieces from heading straight into a broadside, as well as any damage you take from actually ramming them. So why not reward players who are a bit more daring?

    Actual power progression is (well earned, mind you) a touchy subject in a game such as this. And while I can totally get behind the idea of not having my pistol do more damage than your pistol, I would personally be okay with having some really terrifying ships out there. It adds a lot more to the game, I feel. Especially when it comes to choosing your engagements. Do I put my back to the wind, and get some support from that Skeleton Fort? Can I use my ship's better manuverability to use rock formations or islands as cover? Do I dare sail into that storm to the West to shake my pursuer?

    These are decisions I would like to see myself, and others have to make depending on what kind of enemy they're up against. As well as the decision process and crews pooling their rewards to really show off their playstyle, and willingness to fight or flight.

    So what do you guys think? Yay or Nay? Thoughts? Balance concerns? General discussion about naval armament? Any other ideas? Or do you feel the current Naval Combat is just fine the way it is?

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  • Blam320
    Legend
    Insider

    You sure you were hitting them below the waterline? Poke a few holes there first, then hit the upper decks.

    Otherwise, things were tedious for a few reasons. One: the fact they lasted as long as they did proves RARE's approach to balance has worked. Two: both ships had enough resources, and the crews were experienced enough to be able to successfully and efficiently juggle the many tasks needed to keep a ship afloat in combat, making it a war of attrition. Three, it proves that PvE-oriented players can avoid PvP when they want to, even when sailing a cumbersome Galleon.

    Boarding isn't an end-all-be-all. You need to get your boarding party in close, then you need to kill all four enemy sailors.

    Buckets are very powerful, yes. But when you have many leaks below the waterline, it's fairly necessary to keep them that way just to balance out the flow of water in.

    That's the point of a Galleon. Extra firepower and survivability in exchange for speed.

    It really just sounds like you're not experienced enough with a Galleon, or with the cannon mechanics, to make any substantial impact. When I was sailing around with a few friends during the open Beta, we found a well-placed Broadside is often enough to completely overwhelm an opposing Galleon.

    Otherwise, ship upgrades are a huge no-no. RARE has stated they want to avoid things like that, plus on top of Dev preferences, you will always have a "preferred" build that will be better than the rest.

  • A13XA4D3R
    Marauder
    Insider

    I think ship battles are more about skill then resources, and if you do find it comes down to a war of resources, your probably evenly matched in skill. If you crew cant shoot the bottom deck, repair the ship or your captain can't put your ship in a good broadside position, that's all skill that makes the difference between winning or losing.

  • xDreegan
    Ship Mate

    @blam320

    While I will say working a cannon when fighting the waves and judging distance isn't the easiest thing I've ever done, I personally have never experienced getting sunk by a broadside while my entire crew was actually still on the ship. We had a much harder time trying to stay afloat while our HMS Swiss Cheese was sailing through a storm.

    If Wars of Attrition were what the developers were planning on when developing their naval combat systems, then my biggest question is "Why?". What is the purpose, or positive effect on the gameplay of making it this way? Turning a Naval Battle from a battle of skill and wits to "Who has more stuff" doesn't seem very entertaining. And when all it takes to avoid a confrontation is to turn your ship in a different direction and laugh... Where's the threat? Is a life of piracy and sailing the seas deserving of such a lack of urgency? Is our only real threat a Kraken?

    And as I said, I get it. Upgrades are a no-no. Or at least frowned upon. And that's fine. I'm totally okay with various cannons and parts being available from the get-go. No investment in Reputation or Gold, just picking what you want to have on. While having their own drawbacks and having to get ammunition for them can be part of the self balancing circle.

    I want to thank you for replying and being well thought out, however. I just feel like there's a lot of room for improvement and depth here that can be explored and built upon.

  • BloodyWhaleCack
    Marauder
    Founder

    @xdreegan Well to be fair I think you missed the first guys point about naval skill which he is right about, naval combat is about skill its just when you get 2 evenly matched crews thats when it turns to a war of attrition, which is still better than having game mechanics that players can abuse in order to beat their opponent. Personally I don't care if they add customization but when they do you can be assured that everyone will still have the same style of ship as this will create a game of META-SLAVES. Most likely they will not change the game to fit some other peoples crazy a*s suggestions (Yours isnt crazy compared to some who lurk the forum) as this game was created with a vision in mind and customization that gives an advantage would destroy that vision. But you never know compromises happen all the time, and if they truly want to appease both sides of the aisle ( PRO CUSTOMIZATION VS ANTI CUSTOMIZATION) they could just add different ship classes (Galleon, Sloop and the Schooner) or they could retrofit the current ship models like the galleon into a different layout (Would still be the galleon in every way like the amount of health and number of cannons just in a different style) which would provide no actual combat benefit just deeper cosmetic upgrades to help people feel SPECIAL and unique(Chinese Galleon, British Galleon, Spanish Galleon) Again I don't care if they go the route that you are talking about but if they do it will just make the game that much easier to manipulate and so unbalanced (In the beta the skill gap was Extreme with myself personally finding that you would only meet another worthy crew every 20 some ships, granted its only the beta so you cant expect much but if they add ship customization the way you have explained it that skill gap would only GROW AND GROW AND GROW till the game was no longer fun for players who dont put in the time and just get destroyed by METASLAVE SHIPS ALL RUNNING THE SAME STUFF).

  • William Flint
    Commander
    Insider

    I think the best of your suggestions is the ability to damage specific parts of your enimies ship, e.g. the rudder to reduce steering and the sails to reduce speed. Having chaser cannons wouldn't necessarily be bad, as long as they were much weaker than the main guns (perhaps they could have greater range but do half or even a quarter damage).

    The ability to have different ship fittings where you have more powerful guns or armor but pay some kind of penalty for them isn't inherently bad, but I feel you do get into territory where everyone is forced to obsess over the best ship setup if they want to have a chance, and that this goes against the spirit of the game that Rare is trying to create.

    The main problem I see with your suggestions is that a crew has to have a good shot at being able to escape combat. I personally think that people who want a mostly pve experience are missing the point of the game, but that doesn't mean that the game should be made miserable for them. Not to mention sometimes you are just loaded down with treasure and don't want to risk a fight. So I think any damage that could hamper steering or speed would have to be carefully thought out and balanced so that escape would still be a very real possibility, especially for solo players being chased by a full crew.

    Finally I would like to point out that just turning away from a crew that is chasing you is no guarantee of escape. I didn't have much time to play the scale tests and beta, but in one of the sessions my brother and I had we we're able to chase down another two man sloop who turned into the wind. We would turn away from their course to fill our sails, then when we had picked up momentum turn back on course to pursue them. It was a long chase but eventually we did catch them, and while it is hard to prove that they didn't just give up I believe we did outsail them.

    Finally if you will forgive some nitpicking...Rams are completely out of place on a pirate ship. No sane captain would present the bow of his ship to the broadside fire of an opponent (known as crossing the t) for the time required to effectively ram them. In fact they would do everything in their power to avoid such a situation. Even when Rams we're reintroduced on ironclads they were a failure. With the exception of one battle most ships sank by Rams we're actually friendly ships accidentally ramed while on routine maneuvers. I recognize that realism shouldn't get in the way of fun, this is just one of those things that bothers me more than it should.

  • Abn0rmalAzazel

    @a13xa4d3r Or you anchor your boat alongside theirs and kill them, and then have 2 people bucketing water into their ship while the other two spawnkill. I speak from experience- I've done it to other crews more times than actually fight them from the ship. I can guarantee I have more player hits with a cannon than I do a with a pistol

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