[Mega Thread] - PvE versus PvP Discussion

@coffeeart687098

The real thing here isn't PvP, PvE, game balance, Safe Zones or anything else. The real topic is people...
Rare described SoT on a dev video as, 'a pirate's adventure playground.' I love that analogy- and it totally fits! Look at any playground, anywhere in the world. Some kids are playing well together, some are playing quietly on their own in the corner- and some are running around screaming, trampling the toys and destroying stuff. People will do what they want to do- and scream blue murder when they're told they can't, or their way is wrong, and this way is right- which seems to me what a great deal of content on the forums has devolved into...

But in real life, people don't pay a fee to get access to the playground and there are typically consequences for poor behavior.... I understand that the core of the problem is people, as I've even pointed this out in a prior thread:

https://www.seaofthieves.com/forum/topic/28109/pre-order-cancelled/210

But the thing about people is that their behavior can be changed by changing the environment in which they are exposed to. A playground is not void of rules or consequence. You can't just have a room full and toys and say, "have at it!" Playgrounds have safety precautions to protect the kids and parents watching over everything. This is the issue being discussed - the lack of such features. There is no consequence to hunt people down, to troll, to grief or to spawncamp other players, and the small attempt made by Rare to deal with this type of behavior (the brig) is being abused and exploited. There needs to be consequence to these things or incentive not to do them.

The task at hand for Rare is not to address PvE or PvP directly, but to create a world where they don't have to. Of course, steps will likely need to be taken to deal with the more unruly behavior (trolls and griefers) same as when kids act up in real life, they are often punished or removed from the playground.

It's true, you can see ships a mile away, however there's not much you can do against a well captained galleon as a sloop.

I saw a galleon in the distance and I started heading for the nearest outpost to drop my chest, but the galleon gained on me. I managed to out juke it around an island, but it caught back up. It was actually fun avoiding the galleon until they used a cannon to launch a pirate onto my ship to kill me.

I was upset because it really felt like, at that point, that there was nothing I could do to prevent this outcome. My only solace was to scuttle my ship, but I knew they still got my treasure. After hours of playing the game I only managed to turn in two chests. All the others were stolen from me or my ship sunk while I was digging it up.

I really did try to progress as a solo player, I gave it more than a fair shot. But after the nth time my ship was sunk I was too frustrated to continue.

I did have more fun when I joined a 4 player game, however the ship I was on was run by a streamer who was just going around sinking all the ships they could find. "Pirate hunting" they called it. I wanted to search out buried treasure, not contribute to the problem.

Part of the problem I've come to realize is that this isn't the full game. That may be obvious, but we really don't know what else is planned, so some of these points may be moot. If there is more incentive to voyage then maybe it won't be so PvP focused. The problem is that there's a lack of variety in the beta, and once people get bored they PvP - which is only fun for so long.

The game does need 4 player and solo ships for the variety (not to mention I like captaining my own ship). But if the meta becomes galleons search and destroying sloops, then I don't see myself playing the game for very long.

One Idea I had thought of was a "Flag" system, of sorts.

You could sail with a white flag, or black flag.

Black flags are the free-for-all that we had during the beta. Anyone can attack or be attacked, and the stuff on their ships can be stolen.

White flags would mean the ship/ crew can't be attacked and ships can't be interacted with. Other players could get on your ship, but can't hurt you or affect anything.

If a white flagged crew attacks/ steals from a black flagged crew, they automatically become black flagged.

Crews would be able to vote to switch flags, but if they are auto flagged (as stated above) there would be a timer before they can switch again.

This kind of system would allow players who aren't interested in PvP at the moment to go and explore/quest without direct interference. But it would also allow players to hop into a PvP situation at will and not restrict them into playing one way or the other.

@knightx13 We are more of a pve player with some pvp. Every Island with a certain radius should be a safe zone. Whats the fun of being attacked when your doing a mission and not at the boat. A galleon with 4 against a 2 man crew on a sloop is unfair. If it were more even and fair there would be less pirating other players. You could make it more even maybe with servers having only same sized crews. Attackers should not be able to drop your anchors or sail off with your boat especially while your on it. We've encountered too many players camping at gold collectors tent waiting to kill and turn in the gold we worked so long for. Maybe choice between pve only and pvp only servers. Great game just needs little work for pve pvp setup.

@signusm agreed, but if everyone is not catered to, all you'll be left with is a small, loyal community. A good example of this would be Elite:Dangerous (another soul stealing game for me).
I don't necessarily think the community needs divided more than I feel it needs specifically-geared content (catering to everyone) added to the core.

@shadowstrider-7

Agree. That's why I suggested the flag system above.

It would allow players who want to PvP to instantly see if their opponent is also down for some PvP action. But if they see someone who isn't flagged for PvP they can just move on to someone else.

I like a mix of PvP in my games. Where you can choose to play either way depending on how you feel at that moment. Having set severs that are ONLY one or the other would be a hassle to swap between every time you want to change things up.

@ant-heuser-kush i agree with you, but I think Safe zones could be possible!

I think it like this: you could pay guards at an 'good' outpost port so that when you return (1 payment per trip) they will not kill/shoot you on sight and there will be guards 'everywhere'.. this way people could pay for somewhere safe to escape to/bargain in if on the run or want it safe, though it is not safer than lets say if 3 big boats attack at once that they could raid the good outpost, that would make it safe, but not invincible... NPC's could make it work... i think... you could also have black markets that give you 150% gold but is a dangerous place to be (more player in the vivinity?)

I think that could be a cool idea

@ant-heuser-kush has they confirmed this? And why? As of now I think it seems quite empty many places... if skeletons can protect isles, why can guards not protect outpost? Agree I don't want chatting NPC's

@explosiveboby

A flag on the ship would be visible from quite the distance away. So unless you don't look, you would never get close and suddenly realize they are white flagged.

And attacking someone who doesn't want to PvP wouldn't be as fun for you as they wouldn't put up as much of a fight as someone who's ready for PvP. Except for people who are bad at PvP and only get joy from beating up weaker players.

@ant-heuser-kush hmm to me that seems sad... don't get me wrong, looking forward to see how they pull it all off, but I just don't think that appeals to many players? The game itself should have elements of this, IMO... intense online players, will allways find a way way to do this anyways (if made possible) but for many players with less time, need for much cummunity or online stuff. it would, IMO, be nice to have elements of this... the game need to tell stories too.... not only the playerbase... OR at least there needs to be a lot of unique content to drive people forward...

@ant-heuser-kush okay, well thanks for the answers... sadly it seems like this game becomes less and less Something for players like me (less MMO, time grind, make your own stories - more cool secrets to find with friends in shared worlds) but I can respect them for sricking to their vision... just sadly think it will become something like destiny where the player base need to be a little fanatic to keep playing (no offense, just not me, or my friends here)

@ant-heuser-kush just think there are many PvP games out there... had hoped for a more co-op viva pinata style to this... ahh well...

@gl33p also agree

I vote for a PVE-Only mode. Imagine someone playing in a solo ship.. Its just not right, i will look out how the game will turn out to be, i won't buy a Pirate Battle-Royale game.
"At the end of the day, I have no interest in buying a game that is going to reward a few hours of fun exploration and loot gathering with a crew of campers and griefers that are going to shoot people down while their hands are full and moving slow. That is a good way to drive away a good chunk of gamers.

If that is the intent of the game, I wish everyone playing the best. Just not my style of game play. If that is not the intent of the developers, I look forward to seeing it made more adaptable for a wider audience." Couldn't said better.

For my vote, i say keep everything PVP like the beta was. It was annoying some times but you should always be worried. I would add 1 thing though. I think that people should get bounties over their heads for each ship they sink, person they kill, and chest they steal. When it gets high enough, maybe make their sail a pirate logo (which would be awesome for both the person who gets it and everybody around to see!). It would also be cool if you could get a revenge award. If somebody kills you and you kill them back, you get an extra reward of some point.

I don't want a full on reputation system, but i think some level of that could be fun.

@thurss21 i agree to some extend... but why not both? Pvp and pve together? Just make good argument for players have a lot of fun in the gameworld to only sometimes go after each other

@ozmodian could be cool actually... and also balance the game?

@xd1rt-x-d1verx said above:

So why not have safe ports? Or, as somebody else has already mentioned in another thread that there could be 'safe' ports and 'not safe' ports where the 'not safe' variety might offer a higher reward but comes with a higher risk. Maybe a combination of both, make everybody happy.

Agreed. Each of the three different regions have two outposts. Have the safe outpost further away, towards the edge/corner of the map, so that's it's harder to reach and easier to blockade.

I agree with @KnifeLife that it was mostly the lack of content in the beta, that made it so PvP focused, but even if there's loads to do, some people are gonna be scallywags and hornswagglers, and the pirate code is cute and all, but there needs to be in-game mechanics, to prevend griefing!

3 things that could prevent this is:

1. More players per server. Maybe it sounds contradictory, but because of the server problems and the lack of ships, those who were looking for battles, often ran in to same ships over and over again.
2. Respawn at a far away outpost. Right now you respawn at the nearest outpost, i think, which means you're most likely the closest ship to the one who killed you, but if you respawned far away from them, most of the problems would be solved, and the voyages you had could just be replaced with new ones of the same tier in that area.
3. BOUNTIES! If you got a bounty on you every time you cashed in a chest, that you or one from your crew didn't dig up, or everytime you sunk a ship or killed a man, it would give other crews the incentive to hunt down the bad guys, and that way the players would sorta police them self.

@knifelife Didn't think of that, maybe you could hold the stolen chest money hostage for a certain amount of time, and have rumors at the inns, that told if a crew had turned in stolen loot at a specific outpost, and if the cheaters logged out, they would lose the gold.

It's difficult, cause you want pirates to be pirates, but you also wanna punish the ones who goes over the limit, and preferable in game, cause they are probably just doing it for fun, or out of boredom.