@crowedhunter said in Changes to Combat:
I am so excited about the changes to combat. Sword duels are finally not going to be a trade every time.
But please, tell me guys. I really want to know. How does the community feel about how they finally removed the double gunner reload eeeeexploiiiiit ?????
They did what now?
@pithyrumble https://youtu.be/qAudoHNUc34?si=HbGcPUxwIlEuGNlx
Here's the video about it. They talk about how they're removing animation cancelling.
They didn't mention it specifically, but this probably means we can't cancel sword lunge in the air anymore either. Which is probably good.
@crowedhunter said in Changes to Combat:
I am so excited about the changes to combat. Sword duels are finally not going to be a trade every time.
But please, tell me guys. I really want to know. How does the community feel about how they finally removed the double gunner reload eeeeexploiiiiit ?????
I think it's a double-edged sword.
On the one hand I'm a little timid about removing a mechanic instrumental in defining the skill gap in a 100% skill-based game that has no power progression. There are other skills out there that will maintain the skill gap, but I believe this was one of the biggest ones. On the other hand, I despise animation cancelling because the animator was paid to make those frames thus defining the intended play experience, which is why I felt it was an exploit to begin with.
Frankly, there are still dozens of mechanics that will keep the skill gap alive and well for us veteran sailors. I think the removal of this is going to be a flash in the pan for the community that will rail against it's removal, and quickly fall out of vogue when the next big thing to argue about occurs. (cough red sea cough)
I'm find with the changes for the most part, seems fair enough and might change up combat a bit!
The only part the leaves a bad taste in my mouth in the part were they say "Player who try to quick switch in the old technique, may actually find that it takes longer to get off that second shot." Kinda just feels like a punch in the face to people who had gotten quick-swaping worked into muscle memory, would rather just have it be the same time as the normal swap instead of just effecting people who are used to the old technique.
Beside that comment, seems fair enough, maybe could be the first step into rebalancing all the weapons? Either way, I can't judge too hard until I actually get experience with the changes.
I'm just glad they're being this proactive about it. Never been a fan of animation cancel shenanigans anyways. Most of the time it's just low risk high reward stuff which is never fun for those out of the loop or those who prefer to avoid relying on such cheap tactics.
It's hard for me to regard someone as truly skillful if they take advantage of such things.
@lordqulex I was so mad about the Red Sea change because I thought it would just make people gally up and shout ahoy as they chase you off for a reward. But that hasn't happened. I hate to say it, but I was absolutely wrong and the change probably just stopped people from getting rid of keys. Although chases have lost the stall threat that allowed you to choose your moment/winds. Still - probably have more griefers than edge cases like that. So good change, I think now- probably.
@pithyrumble I didn't hear him say the loot juggling was going out too. I do that constantly. That's gonna be a rough one for me. But honestly, I liked the old days before I knew about that and paid more attention to the horizon so it's probably for the best.
@snear-73 said in Changes to Combat:
Double gunning has been nerfed on the past and there is no reason to nerf it further. It takes 5 min to learn how to quick swap. Rare hates their competative playerbace and only wants PVE players in a PVP game. RIP SOT
That's not the history of SoT
The only issue Rare has ever shown with competitive players is the toxicity within pockets of competition.
Is the record perfect? nah but it has been shown throughout the years that they have tried to be at least somewhat supportive of higher skilled play in this game.
It's over 5 years into a live service game, they have to adapt and keep things moving, so they have to make decisions that they think will keep it going.
They've never shown to actually be against pvpers, only the toxicity and even that has been minimal because most long term competitive players aren't involved in toxicity.
It's no different for players like me on the extreme end of pve/pvp organic gameplay. A lot of changes have been made that make it more difficult to enjoy the playstyle but that's not a personal beef, it's just the reality of what is happening in the environment.
@snear-73 said in Changes to Combat:
Double gunning has been nerfed on the past and there is no reason to nerf it further. It takes 5 min to learn how to quick swap. Rare hates their competative playerbace and only wants PVE players in a PVP game. RIP SOT
If you mean competitive as in players who like to play a competition - they should only use it against other competitive players, shouldn't they ?
If you mean in another way - not every player who is of a competitive nature uses exploits to try to sink the other crew - nor does every competitive player approves of exploits being used.
Removing the double gun exploit won't result in only PvE players in the game.
@snear-73 x and D to the ²
Can't say that compeitvnes in game of tools not rules should be reducted to knowing one exploit that throw time to kill balance out of the window.
In that way you had to know and atune to it no tools just rule.
Still eny vet would be able to deliver proper dmg with both his weapons, now in intended time.
I think this change will be overall good change for pvp.
Also Im very happy with sword changes I hope it will feel more like "old" sword with 3 hit combo.
Ah the good times of year one when we all were 5 years younger.
@hiradc I love how Rare communciates.
I guess that lot of twinkering around that exploit caused that trying pull it of sometimes bug and make it slower than intended.
I vidley guess is something with run between shots.
Hardly an intencional punshiment yet they said it as it was kinda intencional punishment.
@hiradc said in Changes to Combat:
Don't mind quick swap being removed but it's weird to punish muscle memory and it be slower than actual normal if people do try to quick swap
Since it's a clearly not intended situation I wouldn't consider it punishment
I really never cared that people did it/used it because I don't view it as harmful or something that really changed outcome but in this specific case it's ultimately on the person that decided to use it.
@snear-73 said in Changes to Combat:
Double gunning has been nerfed on the past and there is no reason to nerf it further. It takes 5 min to learn how to quick swap. Rare hates their competative playerbace and only wants PVE players in a PVP game. RIP SOT
Found the double gunner...
@snear-73 said in Changes to Combat:
Double gunning has been nerfed on the past and there is no reason to nerf it further. It takes 5 min to learn how to quick swap. Rare hates their competative playerbace and only wants PVE players in a PVP game. RIP SOT
That's such a rubbish take.
Quick Scoping is only a "skill gap elimination" for the top .000001% of the playerbase.
The folks quick scoping are going to win the same battles they win today and lose the same battles they lose today. It's not going to change the outcome of any fights for quick scopers.
@sweetsandman said in Changes to Combat:
@snear-73 said in Changes to Combat:
Double gunning has been nerfed on the past and there is no reason to nerf it further. It takes 5 min to learn how to quick swap. Rare hates their competative playerbace and only wants PVE players in a PVP game. RIP SOT
That's such a rubbish take.
Quick Scoping is only a "skill gap elimination" for the top .000001% of the playerbase.
The folks quick scoping are going to win the same battles they win today and lose the same battles they lose today. It's not going to change the outcome of any fights for quick scopers.
Need to work on your hyperbole; even with 50 milion players your .000001% would be half a player and half a player can only have one gun 😁.
@sweetsandman said in Changes to Combat:
@snear-73 said in Changes to Combat:
Double gunning has been nerfed on the past and there is no reason to nerf it further. It takes 5 min to learn how to quick swap. Rare hates their competative playerbace and only wants PVE players in a PVP game. RIP SOT
That's such a rubbish take.
Quick Scoping is only a "skill gap elimination" for the top .000001% of the playerbase.
The folks quick scoping are going to win the same battles they win today and lose the same battles they lose today. It's not going to change the outcome of any fights for quick scopers.
Well I wouldn't say this for granted tbh. Sea of Thieves is a game where timing is a skill on its own. You need to time your shots,position,PVE, eating,jumping,moving... like literally everything needs to be timed right to be a good player. So when someone boards you, you run several scenarios in your head of what to do, but them blundering you and a split second later quick scoping you mid air always felt wrong.(nice aim, good skill, but that animation cancelling is the deal breaker). I am not saying that best of the best won't be able to achieve similar, just a tad slower, but regular double gunners who rely on the exploit, won't win every encounter anymore. Players would get knocked behind cover, move out of the shot, maybe even manage to eat and recover.
I think Burn Bacon mentioned something I didn't consider earlier. It's possible that switching will be the same speed as the animation cancel previously made stuff. So it might have evened the playing field for all double gunners. But if sword causes full interruption now like it used to, I think it'll be fine. What got me more than anything was when someone would just blunder through being combo'd.
After watching this video I am much more excited for Season 10. For the past few months it felt like sword backslashing has been removed, and now I don't have to deal with double gunning DPS or blocking issues? This is a dream come true!
Some thoughts:
@crowedhunter said in Changes to Combat:
I think Burn Bacon mentioned something I didn't consider earlier. It's possible that switching will be the same speed as the animation cancel previously made stuff. So it might have evened the playing field for all double gunners. But if sword causes full interruption now like it used to, I think it'll be fine. What got me more than anything was when someone would just blunder through being combo'd.
I don't see that happening. When Rare built the combat system, they had a "shortest time-to-kill" in mind. Everything that has been done balance-wise has generally left this time to kill untouched. Why would they suddenly change that now? One of the reasons that quick switching is bad is because of how a shorter time between shots makes some kills too easy. Add to that, the language in the video talked about removing the ability to cancel the animation, not lowering the animation time to meet the technique. Burn Bacon is doing their classic act with equal parts pessimism/sour grapes/lying which is intended to reduce the excitement that others have about something that's happening.
Very happy with this update. I think it'll lower the bar for those looking to learn how to PvP well while not changing too much. I also think that only a tiny percent of the playerbase will have issues with this.
As an Xbox controller player, I'm hopeful that this will balance the playing field more between keyboard and controller. I've spent a long time learning how to quick-swap on controller and it's still an effort to pull off well. I've got no issues with them removing it, probably because it won't affect my PvP playstyle too greatly.
That being said, I hope this update brings focus back to the cutlass. It would be a much better idea than forcing players to use one gun and a cutlass, which is what I thought they might do here.
@zig-zag-ltu said in Changes to Combat:
Well I wouldn't say this for granted tbh. Sea of Thieves is a game where timing is a skill on its own. You need to time your shots,position,PVE, eating,jumping,moving... like literally everything needs to be timed right to be a good player. So when someone boards you, you run several scenarios in your head of what to do, but them blundering you and a split second later quick scoping you mid air always felt wrong.(nice aim, good skill, but that animation cancelling is the deal breaker). I am not saying that best of the best won't be able to achieve similar, just a tad slower, but regular double gunners who rely on the exploit, won't win every encounter anymore. Players would get knocked behind cover, move out of the shot, maybe even manage to eat and recover.
The people that are winning fights explicitly because of quick swapping are doing it against other players that are quick swapping.
And guess what...they'll still be on the same playing field after this patch. It's not like you're nerf'd and the other quick scopers are still able to do it...no...nobody can do it. The same winners will be the same winners in those cases.
Quick swapping isn't some crutch that players are using to beat crews they shouldn't be beating...it's a flex on crews that they would have beaten anyways.
If you're in the .0000000000000001% (probably even less than that) of players that are strictly winning fights - particularly against crews that aren't exploiting - based on your ability to pull off this exploit...then to you I say GET GOOD.
In the end, players will adapt, and the same crews that were winning with the exploit will be winning without it.
@hurtwillcam10 Well they said they've improved hitreg and sword combo exchanges. That's pretty much exclusively PVP improvements. Everything they've done is just parity/equity to keep in line with the original vision of horizontal progression.
I honestly think the changes will be great. It might need some small tweaks, but we'll have to see when it comes. Quick swapping, bucket and reload animation cancelling should definitely not be a thing. Abusing stuff like that just to have a small advantage is pointless. More experienced players will dumpster on newer players just from knowledge alone, so it won't really hurt anyone.
@sweetsandman said in Changes to Combat:
Quick swapping isn't some crutch that players are using to beat crews they shouldn't be beating...it's a flex on crews that they would have beaten anyways.
Using an exploit is not a flex. I don't think you understand a word flex correctly. Also a lot of what you wrote is just repeating yourself, on your original statement. Or you missed the point.
All I am saying, Sea of Thieves is a game of timing. If you have 10 pieces of loot and you see a Ship 1 square away, you know how much time you have to sell it.
If you are having a naval fight, you know how much time you have before a 2nd cannon shot comes your way and you are low health.
If you are fighting, you know how long it will take you to take a bite and eat.
When you are having CQC, you know how much time it takes to land 2 sword hits. You know how much time it takes to reload , or switch to another gun.
So it's very unnatural going against a player who uses an exploit and can almost instantaneously fire another shot.
Now go back to the examples I used earlier. Imagine, that ship getting turbo speed to reach you, receiving 2 cannon hits instantly. Instantly filling your health bar. Instantly landing 2 sword hits.......And instantly landing 2 gun shots...It's not a flex, it's a crutch to increase % of winning.
Unless you consider people teleporting with kegs as a flex too. Then yeah, I agree with you.
