Implement hitscan like in Rust

  • Genuinely think the best option for SoT to keep the authentic realistic pirate experience but also have actual working gameplay is to implement hitscan like it is implement in Rust but slightly adapted for SoT.

    For context in Rust when shooting a gun the bullet itself will not deal any damage and just exist as a visual for the first x meters but instead purely rely on hitscan to determine if damage was dealt or not, this I will refer to as the hitscan phase. Past x meters the bullet turns into a projectile turning into an entity in the game engine affect by the physics engine (currently how all of SoT works), I will refer this as the projectile phase.

    Now there are pros and cons to both systems but definitely think that implementing the two will provide the most consistent and authentic experiences. The issue with projectile phase as we all know is hit registration, due to the bullet/weapon acting as an entity being thrown into an already overloaded physics engine we see a lot of problems with detecting proper collision between the entity and player resulting in the phenomenons known as hit reg and backtracks.

    Hitscan though will of course lead to problems of its own where else than losing the authentic experience of bullet travel and such we can end up seeing visuals not aligning with actual damage. Where the visual of the bullet is seen clearly missing but damage is still dealt this is a disjoint. This problem will be significantly more likely at longer than shorter ranges.

    For this reason the implementation of both systems together will provide the best mix of authenticity and consistency. Here is how I would do it.

    Blunderbuss and sword will be strictly hitscan weapons. These are close range weapons which already move extremely fast meaning that we will rarely see disjoints between damage and visual. No more will these weapons ever hit reg or backtrack.

    Pistol and EoR will implement a mixed system like in Rust but with each weapon having different ranges where they swap from hitscan to projectile. We will see this change for both weapons probably around where the bullet significantly starts to curve down so after a solid half to 0.75 seconds of travel time. This way long range shots will not be instant and still technically reactable by skilled played keeping the feeling authentic, but close range shots that were already not reactable in this game will never deal with hit reg again.

    Want to hear peoples thoughts on this system, and to be clear this is not a post on weapon balancing! Once this system is implement balance changes will probably have to be made with sword probably deserving of a full rework. But discussing how to balance weapons without a proper system implemented is purely speculative and holds little value. Instead of pressuring Rare to rebalance weapons I hope this thread will pressure Rare to double down on development of hitscan so that we can then get the much wanted weapon rebalance + additional weapons/pvp features.

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  • did....did you know they are working on this already?

  • @nitroxien

    In their latest podcast (#5) they said that it's something they are looking into testing.

  • @jumbie7311 @lackbarwastaken they said they would work on implementing hitscan not HOW they would implement it. They could take the CS GO approach and go full hitscan. They could go like COD and have some weapons be hitscan and others be projectile. There are many options on how to implement hitscan into a game...

  • The idea to look into hitscan for SOT seems to stem from Rare misunderstanding player concerns. We are landing our shots on the client side, and we get hitmarkers to show that, however the server doesn't register this due to desync - which is caused by too much happening at once for the server to sync up accurately between multiple clients.

    Hitscan takes away the computationally heavy projectile system, sure, which means hitmarkers are more reliable, and we get less false positives... however, it widens the skill gap significantly in favour of players with better input options (keyboard and mouse), output options (faster monitors, higher FPS), and faster reaction speeds. It favours "clicking on heads" over thoughtful calculations where you have to predict trajectory.

    A hybrid system may work but I'm still not convinced it's the right approach at all for fairness - if the game had skill-based and input-based matchmaking, sure. But this is not an FPS game, first and foremost, it's an Adventure sandbox and decisions should be made with care to maintain that feel and not stray too far into competitive systems that only highlight imbalances and have the game lose its immersion.

    I would rather though they look at how hitmarkers work first; only displaying if the server confirms the hit.

    On top of that, overall game optimisation may yield improved performance - we had a full game rebuild for the first Anniversary to facilitate updates being more straightforward, but I get the feeling we're seeing degradation in systems due to lingering out-dated code still present since that build.

  • while I'm really bad at TDM dueling with double guns, I really like and appreciate the way that bullets travel in SOT. It took me a good amount of time to get used to it, especially whyn sniping moving targets. But now that I do that pretty consistently, it might be changed to hitscan. That means no. more. bullet. travel.

    This bullet traveling, the actual projectile is something that makes the weapons in SOT feel special. Even with all the hitreg issues. A pistol feels like an actual pistol in a pirate-themed game and not like a deagle in CS. Not in looks and not in the feeling / handling. Especially since it has been this way since years now and people got used to it being that way.

    That means it takes 3-4 "hits" to actually kill an enemy player. We encounter this every day. Maybe player models need to be made slightly bigger or projectiles fly a bit faster, maybe let the servers accept if the game client displayed a hitmarker.

    Or let the game client not display any hitmarker unless the server itself confirmed a hit. It would be far more convenient if the game would not show fake hit markers. You would be like "hey, I swear that bullet went right into him" but at least you KNOW that he did not take any damage from it.

    Right now crewmates call their hits and the rest of the crews assume that the target is already damaged. Hitreg in the current game seems to be unfixeable (at least thats my impression with how the game is coded or how the server work). But what about fixing hitmarkers instead to only show when an enemy has 100% received damage?

    This would not reduce the number of hitreg incidents but instead mask them a bit and it would maybe not trigger the players as much since the game does not give you "false" information about the enemies health anymore.

  • @lackbarwastaken said in Implement hitscan like in Rust:

    did....did you know they are working on this already?

    Did you know they didn't actually say we were getting hitscan?

    They said they were "experimenting" with it.

    Frankly, I don't want it.

    @realstyli said in Implement hitscan like in Rust:

    The idea to look into hitscan for SOT seems to stem from Rare misunderstanding player concerns. We are landing our shots on the client side, and we get hitmarkers to show that, however the server doesn't register this due to desync - which is caused by too much happening at once for the server to sync up accurately between multiple clients.

    Hitscan takes away the computationally heavy projectile system, sure, which means hitmarkers are more reliable, and we get less false positives... however, it widens the skill gap significantly in favour of players with better input options (keyboard and mouse), output options (faster monitors, higher FPS), and faster reaction speeds. It favours "clicking on heads" over thoughtful calculations where you have to predict trajectory.

    A hybrid system may work but I'm still not convinced it's the right approach at all for fairness - if the game had skill-based and input-based matchmaking, sure. But this is not an FPS game, first and foremost, it's an Adventure sandbox and decisions should be made with care to maintain that feel and not stray too far into competitive systems that only highlight imbalances and have the game lose its immersion.

    I would rather though they look at how hitmarkers work first; only displaying if the server confirms the hit.

    On top of that, overall game optimisation may yield improved performance - we had a full game rebuild for the first Anniversary to facilitate updates being more straightforward, but I get the feeling we're seeing degradation in systems due to lingering out-dated code still present since that build.

    And this is why and I agree 100%

    Hitscan is GARBAGE.

    I don't want SoT turning into CoD or CSGO style combat. That's not why I signed up for this game.

  • We don't need hitscan.

    The removed Arena and now have freed up some resources. Use them to fix the game and not make more fortnite-esque cosmetics for the paid sections of the game

    Guess what, the other 98% of playertime is spent failing to kill people because hitreg.

    FIX THE CURRENT SYSTEM, DONT MAKE A NEW ONE

    Otherwise this game will turn into a normal, grounded FPS game and that will be big bad.

  • My problem with hitscan at X meters would be ship to ship sniping during combat.

    I would suggest that ship to ship sniping ALWAYS be projectile based. Hitscan from ship to ship will be absolutely OP depending on your propsed meter limit. Being able to snipe everyone with no effort as you're in a rotation would just take that element of skill away and I'd be thoroughly disappointed.

  • The OP is talking about a hybrid system such that these concerns are non issues imo.

    Close range hitscan vs projectile makes no difference in terms of where you aim.

    Long range hybrid would mean there's no difference.

    I don't see an issue here - plus reducing hitreg issues is a massive win!

  • @personalc0ffee The hell do you think "working on this" means?

  • I want to wait and see what's brought forward by rare regarding hitscan first before giving opinion on this. It's difficult to say how it will affect the game fully without actually using it in anger. Improvements needs to be made to all weapons regarding hit registration, even throwables are affected somehow.

  • @a10dr750 food reg baby!

  • @lackbarwastaken thanks for the reminder on that lol. Bucket reg is still very prevalent. Makes you wonder if hitscan really is the answer or whether it's a band aid.

  • @a10dr750 they need to add hitscan to food honestly, no longer will food be this projectile that doesn't hit my face.

  • They’ve only recently started experimenting, how can they tell you how they will implement it?!

  • @wsurftvveeds said in Implement hitscan like in Rust:

    The OP is talking about a hybrid system such that these concerns are non issues imo.

    Close range hitscan vs projectile makes no difference in terms of where you aim.

    Long range hybrid would mean there's no difference.

    I don't see an issue here - plus reducing hitreg issues is a massive win!

    A lot of this depends on what you consider close and long range. Two ships could be within close range if that range is considered to be less than 100ft. Even on the edges of close range, you are removing any need to lead a target at all when using hitscan so there is concern that ship to ship sniping will be made a lot easier.

    If it even gets to the point that Rare is happy with it, and it does make it into the game, I think we'd need to see it in action first before we can really judge it. It's also possible that they don't like the results in their experimentation phase and just abandon the idea completely (and then we'll see a million "where's hitscan?" threads in these forums).

  • @personalc0ffee

    I think everyone here appreciates the primitive feel of the weapons...

    It's just that after a few hours of playing, when the stakes get high, people like myself are willing to sacrifice that feel in exchange for accuracy and the chance to stay alive and not sink.

  • @ottyman8687 this game is on a now 10 year old game engine with a strictly better new one coming later this year. As Rare stated in the podcast due to the physics engine itself they are limited in some regards due to the complexity of the game.

    In addition as they add more assets to the game while sticking to a 10 year old game engine the engine will throttle more and more, even fortnite uses hitscan despite being an overall far simpler game.

    This leaves Rare with the need to be extra cautious with future updates since adding even more to the engine can turn the game unplayable, simplify some of the physics in the engine (aka implement hitscan but there can be some other changes does here as well) or make the game in a new engine but that's just SoT 2.

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