Streamers make the sea toxic.

@mith-bosevem

This is not good why are the devs encouraging this?

In what realm is the devs encouraging this? Since when is not taking a stance on something make them complicit? Parents are in charge of their kids, not the streamers.

I suggest you stop focusing on streamers as a source of selling copies and focus on making the game better. This game has more to stand on than any other just on its own design. We dont need fake celebrities.

Time to get with the times, streamers are the new source for advertising games. The only criterion for being a celebrity is being well known. Their is nothing fake about being a popular streamer. You seem irrationally angry towards streamers.

@mith-bosevem

Streamers are a big part of the game industry whether you like it or not. They provide exposure to players that else wouldn't know about the game or try it out. They add more positive effects than negatives in my opinion.

They do have an impact on the meta and game environment and is why I am in favor of the developers teaming up with even the most popular aggressive streamers for live streams. That way they can create a dialog with those viewers and impact the audience in a manner they see fit.

However streamers are gamers, they are drawn to games worth their time and they have pretty high standards as they are reliant on the entertainment they can provide. Which comes down to good gameplay and design. Make a good game and streamers will come, fail to deliver and they leave.

Sea of Thieves was a game that lost them at the start due to lack off content and by good design choices and execution they are now attracting more gamers and therefore also streamers. Which in turn attract more people again.

Good games have streamers, welcome to the new era of gaming. A good games comes first, the streamers will follow.

@nabberwar This is true but I read from another thread earlier that made me think. They moderate the forums pretty heavily and do a good job of keeping the peace and things civil. So why can't they moderate the actual game a bit more? Now granted, that is much harder to do in the live game then vs here, but there is nothing stopping them taking a harder stance on it.

For instance, they do a weekly stream and a dev update every week. All it would take is just them really hounding on the streamers that do act like that on their own platform and I bet a bunch of that type of content will go away if they start hounding after that type of content and talk about how this type of content is unacceptable and that showing players way to grief and troll is not what the Sea of Thieves team wanted from their playing streamers but adventures and having fun with others.

I know Joe Neate had talked about the pirate code a few videos back but talking about the pirate code vs sitting down with the team and going into full detail and maybe use clips from certain streamers but they can edit the name of them to use as examples directly would be enough. Wouldn't be naming and shaming but those types of people making only that one type of specific content would know, hey, we are watching. You are on thin ice on top of hot water.

@shinten-rai

This is true but I read from another thread earlier that made me think. They moderate the forums pretty heavily and do a good job of keeping the peace and things civil. So why can't they moderate the actual game a bit more? Now granted, that is much harder to do in the live game then vs here, but there is nothing stopping them taking a harder stance on it.

Now granted, that is much harder to do in the live game then vs here

That last one answers the reasoning, look at it this way. A forum is completely in written form, the proof will always be there. Their is no that what he/she said, its all documented. Now change this to a live format, excluding recordings, it becomes heresay. Wouldn't be the first time a group of people gave a false report just because they didn't like the singled out individual. It also becomes what the player saw, versus what actually happened. Take this example, one Galleon keep repeatedly killing spawning players. From the spawned camped's perspective, they are getting spawn camped. However, from the perspective of the ones doing the killing, they are running supplies from your ship to theirs. One perspective can't always see whats going on.

It also depends on how hard of a stance you want to take, is it worth it? It isn't unique what happens online compared to Sea of Thieves. Their is already the xbox reporting system, as an attempt to tackle the more serious toxicity. However, what many deem as griefing isn't in this game. As well as what many streamers do in this game isn't against the pirate code. Players on the recieving end my not like it, but doesn't change the reality that it isn't against the rules to do.

One of the big key selling points of this game is creating your own adventure in story, but not everyone's story will align with others. If I want to be a beacon of humanity, protecting the adventurers on the sea, I can. However, with that freedom, comes some who want to be the tyrant. Can't make the claim of being able to create your own story, but only allow certain stories to be told.

@nabberwar ? Why did you completely avoid the rest of the post and only focus on the first few sentences for your reply? That bit was the intro into the actual bit I was trying to get across. You are bringing this down to the micro now with individuals. We know that. I said that. You can report them, but this thread is not about that but the macro problem of having streamers who are toxic in nature influencing others, who then go forth and spew more toxic into the game and the cycle repeats.

Again, Rare has the power with their own streams and developer updates that they can crack down on the streamers with only one type of content only. Example, I have said this many times now today but their is a youtube video by one of the big streamers that cause controversy here with the title, Almost makes 2 kids cry. That. That is the type of stuff Rare has the power to do.

They can come out and grill and hound this type of content creators are making saying it does not align with the Pirate Code or how they designed the game to be played. You can not look me in the eye and tell me that Rare wants their community make videos about them making other players almost ,and in some cases will, cry and then put that up for content for others in a game that was made for ages 12+. They can pour the heat on them, and by proxy that will pour the heat on the emulators who follow their streamer of choice. And just like with the forums, these streamers put their videos and streams up publicly so Rare would be able to actually moderate and view these, seeing as you mentioned that was one of the problems about moderating the game is not knowing.

@mith-bosevem watches the devs weekly stream well.. this is awkward. :)

I hear you matey, we know a certain streamer has brought some toxic players in the game but there are also a lot of good streamers who have brought positive players to the game. You can't change it, might as well embrace it and do what you can to make it the best game possible.

@shinten-rai

Why did you completely avoid the rest of the post and only focus on the first few sentences for your reply?

Long winded responses tend to be skipped over. I'd rather tackle section by section then cover multiple topics in one post. Its just easier to read and keep track on the conversation.

streamers who are toxic in nature influencing others, who then go forth and spew more toxic into the game and the cycle repeats.

I guess we probably will disagree, but I don't think what some streamers are doing, isn't toxic nor griefing. They are for sure popularizing certain tactics (as named by OP here), but all that does is makes it harder to succeed in accomplishing it. As well as trash talk when you refer to your "spew" reference. This will forever exist in online games.

Again, Rare has the power with their own streams and developer updates that they can crack down on the streamers with only one type of content only.

If your model is for the people to create their own stories and adventures, it isn't in their best interest to only allow certain stories. Good stories have villains too. As long as it isn't against the Pirate Code, its fair game. Being the bad guy in this game isn't against the Pirate Code.

I have said this many times now today but their is a youtube video by one of the big streamers that cause controversy here with the title, Almost makes 2 kids cry. That. That is the type of stuff Rare has the power to do.

Why are kids playing a T rated game? I think we both know which certain streamer we are refering too. My question is why do we pigeon hold this guys character on the actions of one video. Theirs other videos besides the negatives circulating. Side note kids cry for dumb reasons, maybe they shouldn't be playing online with complete strangers? This isn't club peguin, a game targeting children that caters to children.

They can come out and grill and hound this type of content creators are making saying it does not align with the Pirate Code or how they designed the game to be played.

What they do isn't against the pirate code. Sinking ships, stealing their loot, hiding on their ship, and trash talking (not including Racism and such) isn't against the Pirate Code.

You can not look me in the eye and tell me that Rare wants their community make videos about them making other players almost ,and in some cases will, cry and then put that up for content for others in a game that was made for ages 12+.

I will look you in the eyes and tell you I will sink a boat of children and take all their loot and supplies if I can. They aren't special, and I treat them no different then any other ship on the seas. Pirate Code says nothing about children receiving special protections in a this game. ESRB rating has nothing to do with online interactions specifically what Sea of Thieves is. The ESRB rating system only applies to what content the creators make, it doesn't apply to online interactions and players speech. Essentially all of Sea of Thieves. This game isn't made for 12 year olds. This isn't club penguin.

I don't believe Rare is responsible for how people play this game. They made the game, let players decide on how to play (as long as it fits the Code).

@galactic-geek
I sink them no different then any other ship, thats the way I demonstrate respect. We all learn when we sink, I'm just giving out lessons.

@galactic-geek only trust the voyage on the table to indicate lowest player level ;) and usually even the new players have some kind of cosmetic they are rocking all proud!

Those I am a "sailor" legends are just people I don't get and not talking about the alliance infiltrators 😏

@galactic-geek

Those I am a "sailor" legends are just people I don't get and not talking about the alliance infiltrators

I mean I just take that as a lesson to be careful who you trust. I don't pretend to be anything, but I also don't go screaming I'm a Pirate Legend. Let them assume the nature of my pirate with my Red flowing locks white painted kissy face and strapless blue wonder.

It does the community no good to scare away new players - all it does is give you fewer pirates to sink over time.

Considering the amount of ships I run into that have no clue what they are doing. To me shows that new players tend to be the majority here. If your new to any game you will always experience strife against an already established player base. If losing causes you to quit a game, you give off the vibe of being a sore loser. We are all new at some point failure is a part of learning.

@nabberwar you don't learn much being 1v4ed other than we suck at fighting.

I don't usually start out friendly, but abort the onslaught when I notice they just started by checking their voyage, unless it is at a cloud event. I consider it end game content and contestants are dealt with.

Usually I will tell them what they should pay more attention to. Naturally some don't give up after I indicate we will leave them alone and force my hand with their actions and it cannot be helped. Which is fair enough to not emit defeat and fight till the end, I can respect the choice as I feel the same way.

@cotu42

@nabberwar you don't learn much being 1v4ed other than we suck at fighting.

Theres plenty to learn in this situation. How did I get in this 1v4 situation? How did they catch me? My anchor was down and they rolled up on me. What could I have done different? Maybe I should have watched the horizon, and not have my anchor down. Did they catch me on the seas? Oh, they launched themselves out of cannons, maybe I could steer my boat away or shoot them off the ladder.

Every failure is a lesson on what you shouldn't have down, as well as what could have been done different. Self inflection is one of your greatest tools on improving.

@nabberwar

In what realm is the devs encouraging this? Since when is not taking a stance on something make them complicit? Parents are in charge of their kids, not the streamers.

The February release will include the feature to hide the names of pirates not in your own crew. This is being sold as "streamer mode" to reduce the opportunities for people to stream-snipe by getting onto the crew of a ship that the streamer encounters at sea.

That's how the devs are encouraging this!

@shinten-rai said in Streamers make the sea toxic.:

@nabberwar This is true but I read from another thread earlier that made me think. They moderate the forums pretty heavily and do a good job of keeping the peace and things civil. So why can't they moderate the actual game a bit more? Now granted, that is much harder to do in the live game then vs here, but there is nothing stopping them taking a harder stance on it.

For instance, they do a weekly stream and a dev update every week. All it would take is just them really hounding on the streamers that do act like that on their own platform and I bet a bunch of that type of content will go away if they start hounding after that type of content and talk about how this type of content is unacceptable and that showing players way to grief and troll is not what the Sea of Thieves team wanted from their playing streamers but adventures and having fun with others.

I know Joe Neate had talked about the pirate code a few videos back but talking about the pirate code vs sitting down with the team and going into full detail and maybe use clips from certain streamers but they can edit the name of them to use as examples directly would be enough. Wouldn't be naming and shaming but those types of people making only that one type of specific content would know, hey, we are watching. You are on thin ice on top of hot water.

This! I completely agree with what you have put here. I definitely feel Rare could do more to discourage toxic behaviour, especially from streamers.
Personally, if all I saw of a game was people trolling and being toxic, that would put me off a game. Sure some people, especially those easily influenced ( i.e children), would think it looks cool/fun/whatever, but it is bad publicity for a game that can be loads of fun.

On a side note I love the 'you are on thin ice on top of hot water' comment... made me laugh :)

@galactic-geek
This person sounds like they are a couple monks short of a choir. Maybe I should change my profile to read, "My dad owns Microsoft"...?

@surveyorpete
I'm confused, how is this encouraging toxic behavior though? If anything, this is preventing players from abusing the stream system.

@nabberwar

I read your question as asking how Rare encourages streaming in general – not toxicity. If I misunderstood, I apologize.

@surveyorpete
No worries.

@nabberwar said in Streamers make the sea toxic.:

streamers who are toxic in nature influencing others, who then go forth and spew more toxic into the game and the cycle repeats.

I guess we probably will disagree, but I don't think what some streamers are doing, isn't toxic nor griefing. They are for sure popularizing certain tactics (as named by OP here), but all that does is makes it harder to succeed in accomplishing it. As well as trash talk when you refer to your "spew" reference. This will forever exist in online games.

True, trash talk is in a lot of online games, doesn't mean people should have to put up with it if they do not like it. This is the problem, people go 'oh its an online game' as if this gives people an excuse to be horrible to other.... nah I'm not buying that excuse.

If your model is for the people to create their own stories and adventures, it isn't in their best interest to only allow certain stories. Good stories have villains too. As long as it isn't against the Pirate Code, its fair game. Being the bad guy in this game isn't against the Pirate Code.

Good stories do have villains, but we aren't talking about villains. This thread is talking about people being toxic/ griefing, completely different to being a villain..... villains are usually rather intelligent, devious and have a reason for doing what they do. These toxic people are neither intelligent nor devious, they just do what they do just to annoy others and cause frustration.

Why are kids playing a T rated game? I think we both know which certain streamer we are refering too. My question is why do we pigeon hold this guys character on the actions of one video. Theirs other videos besides the negatives circulating. Side note kids cry for dumb reasons, maybe they shouldn't be playing online with complete strangers? This isn't club peguin, a game targeting children that caters to children.

This game is rated 12+..... meaning children can play the game. Under 18's are considered children, so why do you assume when people talk about kids/children they mean very young ones?
Also, adults cry and moan for dumb reasons too!

You can not look me in the eye and tell me that Rare wants their community make videos about them making other players almost ,and in some cases will, cry and then put that up for content for others in a game that was made for ages 12+.

I will look you in the eyes and tell you I will sink a boat of children and take all their loot and supplies if I can. They aren't special, and I treat them no different then any other ship on the seas. Pirate Code says nothing about children receiving special protections in a this game. ESRB rating has nothing to do with online interactions specifically what Sea of Thieves is. The ESRB rating system only applies to what content the creators make, it doesn't apply to online interactions and players speech. Essentially all of Sea of Thieves. This game isn't made for 12 year olds. This isn't club penguin.

So, what age do YOU think should be playing this game? over 18's only since it is an online game?
Just because it is an online game, doesn't mean 12+ cant play it. People just need to learn not to be so nasty/vulgar etc. I have played games online for years, if you come across children you just need to tone it down a bit, its not hard and its the nice thing to do.

I don't think any gamer, who has grown up playing games, can truly say they have never played a game that had an age rating above their own age. So why should these children be any different?

I don't believe Rare is responsible for how people play this game. They made the game, let players decide on how to play (as long as it fits the Code).

Well they are. It is their game and their community. From what I have seen/read Rare want their community to be nice, friendly and to enjoy the game and not ruin it for others. Toxicity and griefing do not fall into this.
:D

@nabberwar said in Streamers make the sea toxic.:

@cotu42

@nabberwar you don't learn much being 1v4ed other than we suck at fighting.

Theres plenty to learn in this situation. How did I get in this 1v4 situation? How did they catch me? My anchor was down and they rolled up on me. What could I have done different? Maybe I should have watched the horizon, and not have my anchor down. Did they catch me on the seas? Oh, they launched themselves out of cannons, maybe I could steer my boat away or shoot them off the ladder.

Every failure is a lesson on what you shouldn't have down, as well as what could have been done different. Self inflection is one of your greatest tools on improving.

I agree there is a lot to be learned, but there is also a thing as overwhelming someone with lessons. The ones that don't give up, those I take care of and sink. They are in for a brutal lesson.

Just crushing an average player isn't an encouraging way to have people come back and learn from their mistakes.

They are here to have fun and being completely wiped without the feeling you could do anything back isn't fun. It can feel like a wall that they cannot get passed, instead of a trail to follow to greatness.

Understand here that I am talking about people with like less than 15 to 30 hours here. Most pirates are fair game. Let them get their foundations, so they can start to understand the lessons by sword.

I don't think you are doing anything wrong, it is also your story to write. I personally just have a different writing style. Provide guidance by offering mercy, rather than just pointing out their mistakes with my sword without a word, if I notice they are that new to the seas or they engage in truce talks while the cannonballs roar.

@swimplatypus7 said in Streamers make the sea toxic.:

@cotu42 said in Streamers make the sea toxic.:

@mith-bosevem

Streamers are a big part of the game industry whether you like it or not.

Eh, disagree.

Video games were big biz before there was Streamers. The video game developers had the challenging task back in those days of building truly awesome video games or face certain failure.

Video games did not get a lot of TV advertisement, so as a result relied on the word-of-mouth mechanism to spread popularity.

Look at Games like Doom, Quake, Duke3d, Urban Terror, Unreal Tournament, Joint Ops, Delta Force, World of WarCraft and countless more that spread in popularity because they were GREAT games, not because there was some streamer there to advertise them.

That is all true. Before that you had game walk-through guides that people bought in stores (physical copies) and weren't on YouTube or a website. Tutorials were in a book you got with the game and not built into them. Reviews were in magazines and not in video or blog format at your finger tips with dozens if not more to find.

The industry evolves over time, new technologies, infrastructure, accessibility and innovations change it. Now people enjoy watching other people play video games, it is a big business that revolves around games. What is RARE going to do about it?
a) Prohibit people from making entertainment content, recording their tales and sharing those with others? Censorship?
b) Embrace it and do things like live streams, engage with the public,their gamers and streamers? You know like they are doing and I believe is a great move. It is part of the landscape now.

Streaming is a part of the industry, it is just a reality. I doubt that people will stop watching people play games and I think there will always be people willing to supply the content.

Streamers have actually damaged the gaming industry; I know you don't see it that way but I assure you its the truth. There are those of us who are cheering the downturn in things like Twich because finally we can get back to doing what we would like to be doing, and that's building GREAT video games again.

Again? Don't you think that game developers want to make great games? When did that change, because I for can think of one example right here that we play which disproves that theory.

RARE is one of the very few development companies out there that's not trying to cater to anyone but their own internal concept. That can be a good thing so long as their team stays the same, but as we all know within a company the team changes over time.

That right there is a painful process overall because the elements that came together to form that team and the resulting product are now different over time and as a result the product is different. This can do good and it can do bad, the trick is figuring out where it will actually go before you changed course.

Nobody knows what the future holds and we will see where Rare goes with this IP.

@electablelouise

This is the problem, people go 'oh its an online game' as if this gives people an excuse to be horrible to other.... nah I'm not buying that excuse.

First, I would like to say I am making no excuses. However, this behavior comes with the territory. I expect some 12 year old to talk about my moms promiscuity. I just get tougher skin and ignore it and move on with my life. I just won't go on some crusade to cleanse the game of these people. I think in the grand scheme of gaming, its easier to get thicker skin then it is to try and police this behavior. If it gets too bad, or gets to me, I just mute chat and keep playing. If they start dropping Racist terms and the such, then they broke xbox TOS and now can be reported.

This thread is talking about people being toxic/ griefing, completely different to being a villain..... villains are usually rather intelligent, devious and have a reason for doing what they do. These toxic people are neither intelligent nor devious, they just do what they do just to annoy others and cause frustration.

Maybe it might be easier to get into the specifics, of what streamers are doing that is "Toxic and griefing." Excluding Rascism, hate speech, and the like, which is already covered in Xbox terms of service, and even Twitch Terms of Service. What are they doing that is toxic? I am not seeing what they are doing, that is against the Pirate Code?

This game is rated 12+..... meaning children can play the game. Under 18's are considered children, so why do you assume when people talk about kids/children they mean very young ones?

If we are getting detailed oriented, I am basing this on the ESRB rating system in the US. T for teen would be 13+. Anything under that age would be considered a child, but 13-17 would be classified as Teens. Although all would be classified as minors under the law.

Also, adults cry and moan for dumb reasons too!

Yes they do, but adults tend to have more valid reasons to cry. This isn't to say children don't, but children tend to cry for silly reasons more. I only bring up children crying because the original person this comment was for used children crying as an example and reasoning for a decision.

So, what age do YOU think should be playing this game? over 18's only since it is an online game?

I believe this game would be for a younger audience, if it weren't for the online portion of the game. If its online, and not designed specifically with younger audience in minds, its fair game for unrated content within reason. This is why I use Club Penguin as a example. This was an online game, designed for kids. This entailed the company policing the community of language and content to make sure it was age appropriate. Punishment was swift in this case. However, Sea of Thieves doesn't do these actions, so I see that this game is fair game for Unrated content.

Final thoughts, it might be easier to talk specifics on what streamers are doing that is toxic/griefing. Their is quite a divide on what that is defined on in this forum alone. You and I have a different definition on what Toxic and griefing is. That isn't to say I like it or am for the behavior. What I define as toxic, I don't see streamers doing.

I love the streamers. and now doc is in the seas? it's a good time.

@nabberwar Look, you keep bringing this back down to the micro level. We are not talking about the micro level but the macro level.

Being toxic a player and you may disagree with me but it is the truth. The simple phrase, ez game, git gud, it's sea of thieves, not friends, maybe you should leave the game. Any amount of directly cussing at a individual within the game that is not just cursing cause you died or got hit but telling them they suck and how much blah blah. Yelling racial slurs. That is being toxic. If you have a player doing any one of those things while they are doing anything in the game, then they are being toxic in how they do it. It doesn't matter if the game allows you to attack a ship or not, you can not use that as the excuse when people complain. They are not complaining about the fact that you can fight but how these people are presenting themselves. By being very vulgar and toxic. There is a difference from fighting a ship and fighting a ship and screaming at them.

Now, if you have streamers that have thousands of eyes watching and a lot of them will be in the 12-18 range, so impressionable mimicking eyes, doing any of the following. There is the macro problem. If you can address the amount of toxic game play and personalities of these streamer, of which will yell and be the average twitch player. You will cut down on the amount of this behavior at the micro level, which will mean less reporting and less toxic behavior.

@galactic-geek Sinking children who are new to the game isn't against the Pirate Code, especially Article #6. Article #6 says to respect new pirates (treating them the same as everyone else is a sign of respect) and to share your knowledge. There is nothing stated about how you have to share your knowledge and people tend to learn well in adverse circumstances.

@shinten-rai

The simple phrase, ez game, git gud, it's sea of thieves, not friends, maybe you should leave the game. Any amount of directly cussing at a individual within the game that is not just cursing cause you died or got hit but telling them they suck and how much blah blah. Yelling racial slurs. That is being toxic. If you have a player doing any one of those things while they are doing anything in the game, then they are being toxic in how they do it.

All of this has long existed before streamers were popular. I'm by no means old, but my entire gaming career has been PvP style games. Every single game I played had people who talked like this, suddenly its "think of the impressionable children."....? This kind of banter in games will never go away.

I don't think online is a place for you, if you find this kind of talk toxic. This isn't intended as an insult. This is simply the nature of competitiveness.

the absolute 100% best solution is to enhance the PvE perspective of the game so it is as entertaining to watch streamers play as it is watching other players being trolled by streamers.