A Change to Improve Cutlass Combat

  • xCALYPT0x
    Master
    Insider
    Boatswain

    Hello everybody!

    I just want to gauge the public's opinion about a change I think is necessary for the health of the cutlass in SoT. Currently the cutlass is very clunky, and after the past two nerfs that it has received, it becomes more and more aggravating to use.

    Problem

    The biggest issue I see with the cutlass at the moment is that successfully blocking an attack roots the blocker in place. This means that the player blocking cannot move while the block is occurring. This leads to a few problems:

    • Players get stuck easily in tight spaces (i.e. the entire boat...) if they block the 3rd swing and are knocked back.
    • It becomes extremely difficult for skilled players to demonstrate their skill by taking on more than one enemy because they can be locked in place even after successfully blocking.
    • The design decision to penalize the player for making a good play feels wrong. There are situations where it is probably better to take the 20 damage to avoid getting stuck, but the natural instinct is to try and mitigate damage received.

    Solution

    My suggestion is to remove this movement penalty and allow the player to continue moving while blocking an attack.

    I really want to know what you guys think! Please leave a comment letting me know whether or not you agree this is a flaw with the cutlass combat or if you don't think it's a big deal the way it currently works.

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  • Sailor Davy
    Ship Mate
    Insider

    @xcalypt0x This seems like a good idea...keeps the message Rare has on battles being a test of skill. I would also absolutely LOVE a decreased penalty on a missed sword strike as compensation for the environment no longer being a conduit for a sword combo.

  • xCALYPT0x
    Master
    Insider
    Boatswain

    @sailor-davy Yeah, missing an attack now feels really bad lol.

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    I agree with the idea that it's wrong being a punish for successfully defending. Blocking already slows your movement. Why stop it altogether?

  • xCALYPT0x
    Master
    Insider
    Boatswain

    @galactic-geek Especially when you are low health and trying to get away. You basically can only block till you die because you can't move but the attacker can and they can catch if you try to run during the cutlass swing cooldown.

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    @xcalypt0x The irony is that the whole reason they sped up movement with the sword was because firearm users could outrun them easily if they swung their sword and missed (since it used to slow them down). However, it seems to me that they took no consideration of the blocking mechanics of the sword in the process of making those changes, which completely changed sword-on-sword combat to favor the offense, wholly and utterly. All they had to do was slow you down on a miss, forcing sword users to more carefully execute their attacks - but they even botched that by adding a delay rather than the slowdown (which was also botched due to the double-tap B exploit)... It's like they're trying to see how bad it can become 1st before fixing it, as we're left to tumble down the rabbit hole of madness.

    I recall being able to move while blocking in the past, even though it was still slower. I was also able to sword dodge while blocking which made things interesting, but that can't be done anymore. At least all of that was something while we were on defense. Now defense is a death sentence. If this is some sort of "pirates are supposed to be aggressive" kind of stance by Rare, then it's a very misguided one.

    I just wish they'd explain their reasoning behind the way things are, so that at least we'd understand. Either that, or acknowledge that there is an issue and reassure their playerbase that something will be done about it.

    Some time ago, they said the combat was a process, and that it would have to go through multiple stages of experimentation to get right. They then asked us to have patience. Rare, our patience is running thin...

  • UrihamRayne
    Legend
    Insider
    Founder

    What needs to be done for the cutlass (and melee weapons in general):

    • No movement penalty when blocking
    • No locking a player in place while he succefully blocks an attack, this way players can move, hop and jump while blocking.

    What needs to be done for melee combat in general:

    • More weapon variety with different strenghts.

    Cutlass seems to be the blade for movement, why not add weapons that aren't as mobile but provite different utilities like a stronger defense that parries strikes instead of knocking back, or a weapon that "breaks legs" causing people to limp for a few secs when they get hit by a combo?

    If combat expands with new loadouts the power of the cutlass will be severely broken without any direct nerfs.

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    Unless they add a boarding axe, or a scopeless rifle with a bayonet, I'm against the idea of adding new weapons. Combat is messed up enough already and you want to complicate that?

    I agree that you should be able to move and sword dodge while blocking, but I don't think you should be able to hop or jump while doing so.

  • ender enderson
    Ship Mate

    I think you should be able to block and move at the same time.

  • xCALYPT0x
    Master
    Insider
    Boatswain

    @galactic-geek I don't remember ever being slowed down when missing a sword swing. I remember being slowed down just by swinging, which could be cancelled by blocking for a split second before the swing. Either way, I agree that the current mechanics give the blocker an extreme disadvantage.

    @UrihamRayne I haven't really thought about the movement slow while blocking. I would have to think about it harder before commenting on that. I'm totally in favor of adding more melee weapons as long as they are all balanced.

  • Qui3tCool
    Master
    Insider

    Rare has really screwed up the cutlass. I said it at the announcement of Arena that as soon as competitive PvP was added changes would be made that would change game play in negative ways and it would never be effective or satisfying. The changes to the cutlass has taking away the fun and gratifying feel of swinging one. Rare has made the game worse off for the sake of more PvP.

    Thanks Rare! Great job for screwing around with a game that did not need to be changed to make more PvP happen and stick a pacifier in the mouths of the players that care about nothing else.

  • FallFlare
    Founder

    Player collision would likely improve some combat so youre not flying through your opponents as you fight them. And if theyre worried about people joining teams and blocking doorways, make player collision only effect opposing crews. Theyre in your way? Hit them.

    Sword combat as it is is a tricky mess. Itll take a good bit of work to make it something better.

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    @fallflare Collision between players isn't an issue due to the sword dodge, which allows you to pass through an opponent's space. Try it against skeletons!

  • FallFlare
    Founder

    @galactic-geek said in A Change to Improve Cutlass Combat:

    @fallflare Collision between players isn't an issue due to the sword dodge, which allows you to pass through an opponent's space. Try it against skeletons!

    Im aware you can collide with skeletons, and thats a plus, however when fighting other players, you just go right through them during the fight. It wouldnt be a huge plus to the combat, but it would be a plus.

    The only reason I would prefer some kind of player collision is from personal experience in game with the sword combat with other players. In most every case, theyre running right through me while wildly flailing. Kind of wacky.

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    @fallflare said in A Change to Improve Cutlass Combat:

    @galactic-geek said in A Change to Improve Cutlass Combat:

    @fallflare Collision between players isn't an issue due to the sword dodge, which allows you to pass through an opponent's space. Try it against skeletons!

    Im aware you can collide with skeletons, and thats a plus, however when fighting other players, you just go right through them during the fight. It wouldnt be a huge plus to the combat, but it would be a plus.

    Um, either you're confused, or I'm confused about your post, but you don't go through opposing players UNLESS you do a sword dodge (block+move+jump).

  • Stupid Zoups
    Castaway

    I fully agreed combat sword is not competitive at the moment.

    First there should not be any ROOT/stun.
    Second parry should not lock you from moving/attacking.

  • Lt Swag Johnson
    Master
    Insider

    @xcalypt0x said in A Change to Improve Cutlass Combat:

    My suggestion is to remove this movement penalty and allow the player to continue moving while blocking an attack.

    I find the movement penalty the most ridiculous addition in the game to date. So, yes, I agree! Remove it, please.

  • Crafek
    Master
    Insider

    So, whats the point of sword hopping?

    Im all for changing the sword, but this change would make things more inconsistent and neglects sword hopping. As much as I want to respect Rares decisions, but I think it is best to Revert to previous sword combat (when swinging caused slowdown) because they prematurely brought full speed swinging along with other changes, when instead there are problems I think could have been fixed to make previous sword more enjoyable.

    Like, this one gets all the eyes while my post did not :(

    Here is a copy paste from my post

    Here is how you can change sword while retaining a lot of the good qualities from the changes you guys made

    • Fix the Glitch

    Ive reported this glitch a while back and dont want to go into detail about it here.

    • Have MID-AIR pirates get stunlocked when hit (Stop their horisontal movement).

    Those pirates that jump around your ship cannot be cought and was harder to catch with previous sword combat. This addition/fix would have made things feel like you actually cought someone, instead of landing a hit and still see him running away. This addition makes the sword consistent.

    • Only 2nd and 3rd strikes slow the attacker down

    Slowness made blocking easier, and had you face to face with your opposing pirate. Making blocking easier and rewarded patience, and it didn't devolve fights into running and slicing around like chickens. If we simply let the first attack let you keep normal running pace, then the "No enviornment comboing" will work in tandemn with this new change because you wont accidentally make yourself "Slowed down".

    • When you did your last strike, you cannot make another attack for 0.25 sec (or 0.50 sec) longer.

    This is simply to make blocking more rewarding and escaping after being hit 3 times, and trading less prevalent. When a good fight happens, 2 pirates will block and attack each other going back and forth until they make a change in their strategy. This is how it was previously. (Edit: Not exactly, but because of the full walking speed while swinging, after being blocked it is a gamble and a trade on who will hit who next, so this is to simmer down on excessive aggression).

    • Sword-Hop cooldown now only triggers when you have actually sword-hopped.

    Its just a fix.

  • xCALYPT0x
    Master
    Insider
    Boatswain

    @crafek Block-dodging would still have use for avoiding lunge attacks and making enemies miss with the flintlock.

    Even still though, you cannot execute the dodge if you are blocking a cutlass attack. Even changing it to allow the block-dodge only would be an improvement, but I'm in favor of no movement penalty at all.

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    @crafek There's no cooldown on the sword dodge - that only occurs because you're holding your block button down too long. Let go of it mid-move and you can follow it up with virtually anything else.

    To be fair, movement speed should be the same when swinging or blocking.

  • Crafek
    Master
    Insider

    @galactic-geek Mhh? I dont understand.
    No cooldown in sword dodging? Are you sure?
    Cus, if you jump normally, hold block and press jump.

    By the time you land, you wont be able to sword dodge for a good second.
    You also cant sword dodge one after the other.

    But if you jump, hold block. LAND, and then sword dodge, you can do it instantly upon landing.

    So, if I hold block, sword dodge, let go, hold block, sword dodge, it wont let me do it because there is an inert cooldown for sword dodging.

    I think you misunderstood me.

  • Zormis
    Marauder
    Insider

    @xcalypt0x said in A Change to Improve Cutlass Combat:

    Hello everybody!

    I just want to gauge the public's opinion about a change I think is necessary for the health of the cutlass in SoT. Currently the cutlass is very clunky, and after the past two nerfs that it has received, it becomes more and more aggravating to use.

    Problem

    The biggest issue I see with the cutlass at the moment is that successfully blocking an attack roots the blocker in place. This means that the player blocking cannot move while the block is occurring. This leads to a few problems:

    • Players get stuck easily in tight spaces (i.e. the entire boat...) if they block the 3rd swing and are knocked back.
    • It becomes extremely difficult for skilled players to demonstrate their skill by taking on more than one enemy because they can be locked in place even after successfully blocking.
    • The design decision to penalize the player for making a good play feels wrong. There are situations where it is probably better to take the 20 damage to avoid getting stuck, but the natural instinct is to try and mitigate damage received.

    Solution

    My suggestion is to remove this movement penalty and allow the player to continue moving while blocking an attack.

    I really want to know what you guys think! Please leave a comment letting me know whether or not you agree this is a flaw with the cutlass combat or if you don't think it's a big deal the way it currently works.

    The problem with the cutlass is that pirates with 0 sword skills kept complaining and they nerfed the sword into the ground. I am starting to see double guns again, they may not be an instant kill anymore but on a galleon it's pretty effective.

    Sword combat now is like chasing a fly around a large house with a fly swatter, except the fly never lands and you can only swing every couple of seconds.

  • Crafek
    Master
    Insider

    @zormis YES!!! my thoughts exactly! The thing is, I honestly believe that mid-air pirates not being stunlocked was the real culprit to the feeling of not being able to catch anyone with the previous sword iteration.

    Also, I believe this was a buff more than a nerf. It buffed it way too much by removing something very Important.

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    @crafek Nope, it's you who misunderstood me. I said "virtually anything else" - meaning that I wasn't referring to back-to-back sword-dodges. 😉

    Also, I just tested it, and you can. You get shorter-distance dodges, but it does work. There is a brief, natural delay due to having to block again, but it's still much faster than holding it down.

  • Crafek
    Master
    Insider

    @galactic-geek Is there in anyway in a video you can show me this because im still not convinced.
    Because like I said, if you sword dodge in mid-air before you land, you cant sword dodge when youve landed. As in there is a cooldown activated when it shouldnt. That is what im talking about.

    Im not talking about using other things after sword dodges, im talking about using sword dodge after something, but you maybe accidentally inputted Sword-dodging when you couldnt sword dodge, but you still activated its cooldown, not allowing you to sword dodge.

    Im literally testing it now, you cannot sword dodge sooner than the cooldown of it. I can sword dodge instantly as I press block, but trying to simply press block+jump in 2 successions leads to me simply pulling my sword up to block with no jump. So why is there this "natural" delay due to blocking? I dont understand. I think its just this cooldown.

    Like, even doing holster/unholster exploit, there is still a cooldown that is not letting me sword dodge as soon as I draw my sword. And you can instantly sword dodge on drawing your sword, but you cant sword dodge instantly again because the cooldown has not cooled down.

    This cooldown can activate during another animation, so even when you havent sword dodged, as long as it is a sword in your hand and the input is somewhat triggered, the cooldown triggers.

    Also

    I said "virtually anything else" - meaning that I wasn't referring to back-to-back sword-dodges.

    This confused me even more, because

    • Sword-Hop cooldown now only triggers when you have actually sword-hopped.

    Its just a fix.

    Is about back to back dodges. The dodge cooldown occurs during animations that dont actually give you sword dodging.

    So then what are you talking about?! There is nothing more about this than simply just sword dodging. Its not about not being able to do other things, its about not being able to sword dodge because, it activated during an animation that didnt give you sword dodge.

    As simple as that! am I missing something here?

  • xCALYPT0x
    Master
    Insider
    Boatswain

    @zormis I thought the initial cutlass buff (the removal of movespeed penalty on swing) was unneeded. Especially because it could be cancelled w/ the block if players new how and. But I don't think it was necessary to add that buff in the same patch as the double gun nerfs since they added that change in so that players using the cutlass could catch up to people with guns

    It was definitely strong during that patch but I don't think I would say it was OP. People just didn't realize that the blunderbuss became the anti cutlass weapon with the knock-back feature at that point.

    But yeah, the cutlass is kinda underwhelming at the moment. But I think removing it's clunkiness would help it out a lot and it doesn't necessarily need buffs atm. IDK. Just my two cents.

  • Acarin
    Captain
    Insider
    Founder

    I find it frustrating that WE have to essentially fix the combat system for Rare by making these suggestions. in a game that is dedicated to PVP the combat system should ideally be super refined, but here it is a joke.

    The cutlass absolutely needs to be improved, if only for the reason that it feels like garbage to use, but moreso because it really doesn't suit the intended purpose in pvp, and as OP describes punishes proper swordplay.

    Look at Chivalry Medieval Warfare for inspiration, you don't need to be able to chop limbs off or anything but that melee system has complexity in that it's a mind game of feigning attacks to coax your enemy into blocking, positioning and timing blocks to interrupt your opponent momentarily while you get a swing in. The ability to swing from multiple directions so that your opponent has a harder time anticipating where he needs to aim to block the next attack.

    The system we have now is laughable, at least use some outside inspiration to make a more fulfilling, nuanced system.

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    @crafek You can't sword-dodge in mid-air... 🙄

  • K1LROYw4sH3R3
    Captain
    Insider

    I’m starting to notice a tread in arena. Players are spamming jump and swinging the cutlass over your block. I’m going to guess and say that a M&K user can effectively jump circles around a controller player. Ive tried to use a controller to replicate this it’s definitely a lot harder then a M&K. Even with the sensitivity maxed its very hard to be accurate with the jumps. Mouse does a way better job for tracking a player below while in the air.

    I’d say when a weapon is in your hands your jumps are halved in height instead of a cool down so if you like spamming jump the players tiny brain wont explode when jumping is on cool down. I really feel though they should implement smaller and smaller jumps when used in quick succession like other games do. I don’t want to hear the excuses of “jump helps me traverse rocks on islands” when really you’ve just learned a bad habit from lower level games that don’t reward intelligence just who can spam keys.

  • Crafek
    Master
    Insider

    @galactic-geek Are you just joking around now? I know you cant! Ive stated this many times.

    Seriously, what are you talking about? Are you reading what I am saying?

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    @crafek Yes, I am reading what you're saying, but I'm not understanding half of it.

    Sword dodge = block+move+jump. That's my definition of it.

    Sword dodging allows you to "hop" a short distance, and can be used to get closer or further away from an opposing player. It can also be used to move through said player's space. You can use it in any direction, 360 degrees. It won't work when your block is being hit, because you'll be rooted in place. If you let go of the block mid-move, upon landing, you can immediately do virtually anything else, such as jump, start an attack, change direction, etc. all of which is limited by their own start-up animations and other built-in gameplay limitations (for example, having to block first to do another sword dodge). While in mid-hop, you cannot do another sword dodge, because an object that is in motion stays in motion until a force acts upon it. Physics, yo!

    This is what I'm trying to tell you. If you understand that, then great! However, your responses tell me that you don't. This, to be clear, is completely separate from whether I'm understanding you or not.

  • Zormis
    Marauder
    Insider

    @xcalypt0x said in A Change to Improve Cutlass Combat:

    @zormis I thought the initial cutlass buff (the removal of movespeed penalty on swing) was unneeded. Especially because it could be cancelled w/ the block if players new how and. But I don't think it was necessary to add that buff in the same patch as the double gun nerfs since they added that change in so that players using the cutlass could catch up to people with guns

    It was definitely strong during that patch but I don't think I would say it was OP. People just didn't realize that the blunderbuss became the anti cutlass weapon with the knock-back feature at that point.

    But yeah, the cutlass is kinda underwhelming at the moment. But I think removing it's clunkiness would help it out a lot and it doesn't necessarily need buffs atm. IDK. Just my two cents.

    Nail+Head That's the thing, people where complaining about too many sword swings. I was thinking to myself, what's so hard counting 3 attacks then counting attack? Pulling out a Blunderbuss on someone who was chopping at me like a tree was pretty much an instant kill.

    But at the same time at least it felt useful for chasing around people hopping around the ship. If it wasn't for the mobility the sword gives me, I wouldn't even bother using it anymore in the arena since you have so much room to run away from people slicing at you.

  • Crafek
    Master
    Insider

    @galactic-geek It seems that you did completely misunderstand me because we started this argument over your first comment.

    Instead of repeating myself, I want you to open Sea of Thieves when you can, and just test something for me as this is consistent every time and is what I am talking about and happens in other situations where you are able to hold block.

    Move in a direction
    Jump normally
    (While in mid-air) Sword dodge (or block+jump)
    (just as you land) sword dodge again.

    You will see that you are unable to sword dodge.

    Now try the proper way.

    Move in a direction
    Jump normally
    (Just as you land) Sword dodge.

    You will see that you can sword dodge instantly as you land.

    This is because the sword dodge "Activates" mid-jump. There is even an animation glitch that confirms this. Which means, that there is a global-like cooldown applied to the character wherever he can Block (+Jump). This also works across holstering and unholstering, and being attacked while blocking. You cannot sword dodge again, until this invisible cooldown lets you. Which means, if you want to sword dodge out of blocking an attack as soon as possible, It will have to be the last hit where you get this window of input and you have to be frame perfect. If you sword dodge too soon, you will "activate" a sword dodge cooldown, and wont be able to sword dodge until it cools down.

    Therefor

    • Sword-Hop cooldown now only triggers when you have actually sword-hopped.

    Its just a fix.

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    I've never tried blocking while jumping because from a logical standpoint, it seems like something that you shouldn't even be able to do. That said, I followed your instructions. I see the animation glitch you refer to, which is very subtle. It seems obvious to me that you can't "pre-load" the hop, or do it in mid-air because your feet haven't touched the ground yet - you can't hop until they do. Otherwise, we'd have flying pirates. Unless they're being fired from a cannon, that's something that I don't wish to see.

    I also tried switching weapons and discovered that drawing a firearm is faster while jumping than on the ground. This, I think, needs to be fixed to be consistent.

  • xCALYPT0x
    Master
    Insider
    Boatswain

    @zormis Just realized I wrote new instead of knew lol. Oopsie.

    But yeah, thinking back on it... I feel like they could have left the cutlass completely untouched lol. I would still want the block move penalty removed though.

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