Time RARE gave SoT Community "Their" definition of Toxicity

@cokney-charmer I thought that's what the pirate code was supposed to be?

It should be obvious that attacking and sinking another ship is intended gameplay and therefore by definition is not in itself toxic, although a lot of newer players don't seem to understand this.

Trolling your own crew is clearly toxic, although the same behaviour amongst a group of friends might just be banter and messing.

MS ToS is pretty clear on what constitutes toxicity in terms of voice/chat comms. I'm surprised that action hasn't been taken over some things I've seen streamed. It needs to be reported firstly, but secondly MS don't exactly have a great reputation for taking action when reports are made of abusive communication (no personal experience here, just what I've heard other people say, could be exaggerated)

Do you want Rare to spell out - don't do this, this is fine etc?

I mean a lot of it is just obvious common sense. Don't use foul language, don't insult people, don't harass people repeatedly for no reason, don't sabotage your own crew.

Generally though if people just tried to behave with a bit of honour and personal integrity this wouldn't be an issue. That's RL advice though not just for video games.

What you put out into the world is what you get back. If toxic behaviour is how you get your kicks you're going to end up with a toxic worldview, because your entire reality will be impacted negatively by your lack of discipline in restraining your toxic urges and behaviours (we all have them). Those unrestrained urges will spill over into how you think and relate to the world in general and it will be to your own detriment. That's a problem that's far harder to fix than just turning off your xbox.

@cokney-charmer yeah I don't disagree with you. Just wanted clarification as to whether you wanted Rare to spell it out in detail as a list of behaviours that aren't acceptible.

It really shouldn't need explaining, but here we are in 2019, where through some strange twist of fate people actually need to be told how to behave and how not to behave towards other human beings.

As for the streamers thing. The videos are right there, why not report them yourself? MS can only act when stuff is reported to them, they're not going to watch every clip of xbox live gameplay on the net to see if somebody broke the ToS. If they were reported and MS didn't act, that's not anything Rare have control over.

I think your suggestion has merit. Afaik the Pirate Code was developed in Beta/Alpha? Maybe it's time for a clearer code that takes account of some of the issues that have become more prevalent since the game went live.

Codes need enforcing though. You can have the fanciest rules ever devised for a multiplayer game, but they're just words unless they're backed up by action when the rules are broken.

We're clearly not a community that self-polices though. I had hopes that one day the PLs and experienced players would be the ones to enforce fair play, protect new players against griefers/trolls/KoS crews and keep the seas relatively fair for all. Nobody seems to have taken it upon themselves to pursue this as a legitimate form of gameplay though.

I can imagine a great cop buddy drama about two PLs in their patrol sloop, covering their beat on the mean seas of SoT. One a hardboiled old school fella, with a bit of a drinking problem, the other a rookie, only just turned PL. Keeping the seas safe for the simple merchant, helping sailors free trapped rowboats, and trying to stitch someone up for the multiple homicide and Galleon sinking that happened over at cannon cove before the Chief blows a gasket.

@faceyourdemon That's the thing though. You can be pretty toxic without ever using a bad word. You can be toxic without saying a word. A silent player who joins your crew to turf your loot overboard and constantly drop the anchor is a bigger annoyance than a 10 year old shouting the new word they just learned in school at you on the ferry.

Sometimes things are vague because they're hard to tie down to specifics.

Take spawn camping - toxic? The answer isn't clear. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. There's a lot of ifs and buts and caveats. It's hard to fully encapsulate that reality in a set of rules that can be easily deciphered by anyone who doesn't hold a law degree.

Then we have to communicate those rules to kids, teenagers and those with limited cognitive capabilities in such a way that they understand, agree with and follow those rules.

All this in a game that has always been about "tools not rules" so players do come in with an anything goes attitude already, especially if they learned about the game from watching streamers play.

Worth trying? Definitely.

Is it possible? Unclear.

Personal insults, vulgar language, racism, homophobia and trolling your own crew are what I consider should be deemed as toxic behaviour. Personally I'd probably not report any kind trash talk though as it doesn't bother me I actually find it funny but considering the age range of this game I get why its shouldn't be on the seas

Personally don't think sinking another ship (with or without loot) even multiple times is toxic as its very much based on circumstance. So unless they are being abusive along with sinking you then I don't think its a problem

@cokney-charmer agreed, this is a people problem, not a platform problem.

Platforms and balance are their own issue and we'll get some info on that today.

Toxicity, and what constitutes toxic behaviour is another topic.

I watched yesterdays live stream. Did anyone else see the guy calling the Devs "trash" after sinking them at the fort?

Here's a question: using that specific example, was that guy being toxic to the developers or was that acceptible behaviour in the eyes of people here?

I mean they were sunk, was there any need to call them "trash"? If that isn't toxic, what is it? Trash talk? Is trash talk toxic? Is trash talk acceptible? If you think it is acceptible, explain why. What are the positives that trash talk brings to the game? Why should people who are offended by trash talk accept this behaviour from other players? Where do you draw the line between trash talking and being toxic?

@arecbalrin Good points.

You hear a lot of people defend their right to say abusive things to people under the banner of free speech.

Free Speech doesn't exist. In the USA your first ammendment protects you from Government censorship. It does not mean that you can say what you like without consequences. Libel/Slander/Defamation are all still crimes in the USA, free speech or not.

The rest of the world, mostly, does not recognise freedom of speech/expression. There are laws in most countries against hate speech, incitement to violence, threatening behaviour, use of vulgar language, malicious use of electronic communication, harassment, discrimination and so on. They are enforced to varying degrees from country to country, but they exist nearly everywhere.

SoT is available worldwide, so American laws are meaningless. MS ToS is the only law on MS's platform. But MS's ToS is open to interpretation. Who does the interpreting? Do we have the right to be tried by a jury of our peers? Is there oversight? Can a decision be appealed to an independent arbitrator?

There's a real problem in enforcing these rules in the real world using the legal systems and precedents that have been devised over thousands of years. I'm not convinced that it is within Rare's power to solve the issue in SoT, zero tolerance or not.

I personally think zero tolerance was just a poor choice of words to articulate "we take this very seriously and will act on any reports that you make to us, if they can be acted upon"

@arecbalrin you seem to know more about the legal specifics than I do, so I'll defer to your greater knowledge.

Here's a question for you though. There is a law, in my country, against malicious use of electronic communications. If someone sends me an abusive or hateful message on xbox live, that is covered (loosely) by that law. Am I then in my rights to report that person to the police? If MS says don't do anything illegal, and sending an abusive message over the internet is illegal here, you're saying that their ToS would make this players actions sanctionable, even though they might come from a country where no equivalent law exists?

I mean, you normally can't get extradited for something that isn't a crime in the country you are being extradited from, but if you are convicted in absentia that could prevent you from ever travelling to that country or a country that has an extradition treaty with that country.

Obviously this is a hypothetical situation and international arrest warrents are hopefully never going to be used against xbox live trolls (nor should they be) but are you saying that under the current ToS this is a thing that is possible?

That seems a bit mad really. I mean we do live in a world where trolls have gotten streamers shot by police SWAT teams though, so I'm not sure I have the capacity to be surprised by how out of hand things can get anymore.

@octopus-lime that makes sense. I'm talking MS ToS here though. The ToS says don't do anything illegal. Not don't do anything illegal in your home country.

I agree with @ArecBalrin here, MS ToS needs clarity, if it's going to be the bottom line in terms of rules.

Tbh I think it's on MS to address toxicity across the entire XBL platform. Rare can only do so much in SoT, MS are the people who control XBL and it's on them to set and enforce rules and standards of behaviour.

Rare can help define the specifics of MS's rules as they relate to SoT itself, but only if those rules are clear enough to provide specific examples of behaviours that aren't acceptible.

@arecbalrin I'm from Ireland but, apart from us being nobody's subjects here and beholden to neither kings nor queens, our laws are exactly the same, for the most part.

Thanks, yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Seems like a nonesense sort of thing to include in ToS then unless you are tying it to a specific juristiction.

@octopus-lime said in Time RARE gave SoT Community "Their" definition of Toxicity:

@boxcar-squidy said in Time RARE gave SoT Community "Their" definition of Toxicity:
Also would like to point out that I'm not supporting toxic behavior, personally I consider smack talking in game as toxic.

Me too. I tend to look at it along the lines of "would this be an acceptible way of talking to an opponent if we were playing a sport"

I mean, you don't tend to see Premier League footballers calling out the other team as trash or using derogatory slurs against one another (and footballers aren't exactly renowned for being model citizens). If you dishonour your opponent you dishonour yourself.

Even if the words or behaviour are harmless when the intent is to make the other person feel bad, that's toxic. How do you prove intent though? Because the number one, go to excuse is always "but I was only joking"

Also, sometimes people feel bad about things that aren't toxic. They get sunk and lose their loot. It feels bad, therefore the player that sank them is toxic, that seems to be some people's logic.

The game is about gathering and protecting your loot though. So someone attacking you for your loot isn't doing it to make you feel bad, they're doing it because that's the game.

To be honest, as a term, the word toxic seems to be losing meaning the more often it gets used.