The Loss Farming Fallacy

@dlchief58 a dit dans The Loss Farming Fallacy :

just because you are not up to the task of earning them yourself?

You know I have both curses already. Legit too.

Your whole argument is based on your own sense of entitlement and seek to cover that by accusing others who want some sort of accomplishment behind the achievement of "gatekeeping" and using tired insults on those that have earned them to attempt to bolster your own narrative. Not a good look at all dude!

Not at all. All I'm saying is ANY cosmetic in this game just reflects time invested, nothing more, especially not skill or knowledge or difficulty. Just time. For some it'll take days, for others years, but that just still doesn't reflect anything apart from time invested.

I know. I'm an example of a not great player (not terrible either) and I just got the curses because I didn't have anything else to do for the last 3 months so I played 10 hours a day. I'm not good. I have the curses though.

Ironic isn't it.

Indeed

Edit : I wish I could still be considering cosmetics the way you do. I really wish cosmetics still had that magic to me. I used to fear certain cosmetics. Now I know they don't really mean what they're supposed to, most of the time.

@jolly-ol-yep If true, then why are you still here yammering on about something that now should be irrelevant to you? And doesn't that also prove your previous complaints to be irrelevant if you truly have earned both in that short time?

@dlchief58 a dit dans The Loss Farming Fallacy :

@jolly-ol-yep If true, then why are you still here yammering on about something that now should be irrelevant to you?

Why should it be irrelevant to me ? I care for this game. This game mode can be pretty fun and it'd be a shame if it died. I want to be able to play it sometimes when I feel like it and have a good experience. That means people my level, not only arena veteran who will stomp me every time. I want people to play it, so I want people to enjoy it, since it's ENJOYABILITY is the core issue I think, as we saw Saturday when suddenly it all seemed like dream world.

Is it non sense that enjoyabillity is so tied linked to numbers increasing rather than the content itself ? Yeah, maybe. Blame the human brain and modern video games gimmicks for retention for this I guess, not me. Why is it more satisfying to it Diablo with 500M damage rather than 231 ? I don't know, but it just is.

And doesn't that also prove your previous complaints to be irrelevant if you truly have earned both in that short time?

Why so ?

As I said I pretty much did nothing else during the last 3 months. It migt have took me a thousand hours, maybe. Anyway, not a "short time" for sure

I'm not gonna start gatekeeping as soon as I'm on the other side of the gate, like many. Was it TOO MUCH ? YES !! A billion times yes ! Especially since I was not streaking that much. Just couln't.

I totally understand why any sane person wouldn't want to endure what I did. Makes perfect sense. What doesn't is my life since 3 months and this grind for the sake of it.

At this point let’s just delete the curses and keep S8. That way people can find something else to complain about. I’m just tired of how much people complain about all of this.

@crowedhunter so maybe everyone can just chill about pvp vs PVE vs it’s not fair vs who cares?

@crowedhunter nah or I would’ve said that. I’m just tired of the “but I want it posts” the “it’s too hard to get posts” and everything else. It’s not even the end of the season yet people. It’s OK to NOT have it yet, it could very well take some time. Breathe it isn’t going anywhere

@jj-h816 a dit dans The Loss Farming Fallacy :

@crowedhunter nah or I would’ve said that. I’m just tired of the “but I want it posts” the “it’s too hard to get posts” and everything else. It’s not even the end of the season yet people.

Well I can see for sure something they could do that would stop those threads from spawning everywhere, yes.... But that would irritate a lot of people wouldn't it ?

It’s OK to NOT have it yet, it could very well take some time. Breathe it isn’t going anywhere

True. But some fear the game mode will "die out" and only be peopled by killing machines. That's not unreasonable to assume.

And while many others are REALLY OK with it not being unlocked this season or even in s9 (I couldn't stress this enough. NOONE is asking for it to be unlocked easily), they just want a middle-ground between a few weeks (what it took for top-tier players) and and few YEARS (what it's realistically gonna take them)

@lordqulex LOL, you do realize the game is not available in China don't you? Obviously not.

@dragotech123 said in The Loss Farming Fallacy:

You know, I'm glad that Jolly-Ol-Yep is discussing this. They already have the curses, but they still talk about how it is a long grind for those who are not good at PvP but are still trying. I call that empathy, since they know how some of us feel on the losing side.

And even though I am on the losing side, I take the sympathy of the PvP/Dedicated players that value their earned skills in PvP. Players that aren't very dedicated will get frustrated easily instead of sticking to their strengths and improving on them. The hourglass, in some way, is a fairly healthy way to practice PvP. the matchmaking definitely didn't let that ring true even from day one, but the intention is still clear and accepted around those with thicker skins.

These types of discussions are only tiresome bouts that go in circles because the game supports two ideals that feel mutually exclusive to one another instead of being inclusive with each other.

@crowedhunter said in The Loss Farming Fallacy:

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I'm calling out ridiculous statements, if you think it is condescending then I suggest you look in a dictionary again. Even if what he said had a shed of truth to it, the people that would do that is soooooo small that it is not even worth mentioning, much less using it as a defense point in an argument.

Now note, I did not say there might not be other Asian servers doing this (and probably are). I am just pointing out the absurdity of "Chinese Alliance Servers" due to the facts of availability in that region (none) and internet access to the rest of the world (very limited and controlled).

@dragotech123 said in The Loss Farming Fallacy:

Sure, everyone has different points of view. Even I have been trying to improve. I've been putting my effort and time in this gamemode and what I asked a lot of time is to have my effort and time rewarded accordingly. I don't think that's a bad thing to ask.

Please, don't pretend I haven't put effort into this new mode, and don't pretend that I want everything handled to me easily, what I am asking is to be compensated for the time and effort accordingly.

See, the conundrum here is that in the perspective of hardened dedicated players, you really should be rewarded for getting better at the game. If you're not getting better, you gotta change things up, do something else, etc. When outsiders see that even the people trying are complaining having issues with rewards after long-fought and lost battles, there's no point for them to show empathy because they would just try again and "get better". A "better luck next time" type of deal, instead of trying to making things... "easier".

Yes, it's a weird perspective to support, but a difficult video game is hard to argue for, and against. Skills are legitimately obtained by learning the game and dedicating a lot of time to it. People have up to 5 years of experience on this game, the right amount of mechanical and technical learning, constantly hopping looking for fights that even they know they can't win, but will damn well try. On top of this game constantly bringing in fresh new casuals and giving support to some of the thinnest skinned players in the game (that can also be partnered content creators), it's an identity crisis that is constantly at odds with itself because those "PvP gatekeepers" you guys don't like are just as valid as the Little Timmy you lot want to support. No one's wrong, but no one's right either.

These discussions may be tiresome to some of you guys, but it is also tiresome for some of us that our suggestions are being shutted down by other players in a feedback forums, and some even make fun of my time and effort in passive aggresive posts.

It's hard for some to feel inclusive when an entire playstyle they consistently participated in for years feels invalidated by the majority of the playerbase, and then magically is given a wealth of content for a little while where their playstyle, in its most brutal and honest form, is validated in the game to the point that it's caused some to become burnt out from the game entirely. In this case, I'm not saying to just agree with them, but understand their perspective, see what they see, and come to an understanding where each can agree to disagree.

@nex-stargaze a dit dans The Loss Farming Fallacy :

@dragotech123 said in The Loss Farming Fallacy:

You know, I'm glad that Jolly-Ol-Yep is discussing this. They already have the curses, but they still talk about how it is a long grind for those who are not good at PvP but are still trying. I call that empathy, since they know how some of us feel on the losing side.

And even though I am on the losing side, I take the sympathy of the PvP/Dedicated players that value their earned skills in PvP. Players that aren't very dedicated will get frustrated easily instead of sticking to their strengths and improving on them.

Having said what I've said, I still couldn't agree more with this. At the beginning of the "becoming a PvPer" process, you are overcautious all the time and a sink feels like someone just stabbed your mother. There's a unjustified fear for sinking in less experienced players.

Maybe rework the Maiden voyage so you ship sinks but you manage to get to your destination boarding another one ? I don't know. But people need to be taught (teach + past tense ? am i right ?) that sinking is NOT a big deal. (random deconnection is. That's where you'll lose all those pineapples and cursed balls, not fights)

The hourglass, in some way, is a fairly healthy way to practice PvP. the matchmaking definitely didn't let that ring true even from day one, but the intention is still clear and accepted around those with thicker skins.

Agreed too. There's definitely no better way to improve, and far less toxic than your usual DA sails brig encounter. The system is awesome and is the best thing happening to SoT in a long time.

These types of discussions are only tiresome bouts that go in circles because the game supports two ideals that feel mutually exclusive to one another instead of being inclusive with each other.

If you go at the very core of these discussions, I really think it comes down to this : (deliberately not going into the "you have the same dress as me, lemme check if you didn't steal it" narrative cos' it's childish)

• Do bad players deserve to get the curses ?

Some here would openly oppose that, while like others I think that yes, over time (but not "years-long" time either), everyone should get a chance og getting these.

@lordqulex said in The Loss Farming Fallacy:

@dlchief58 said in The Loss Farming Fallacy:

[mod edit]

I'm calling out ridiculous statements, if you think it is condescending then I suggest you look in a dictionary again. Even if what he said had a shed of truth to it, the people that would do that is soooooo small that it is not even worth mentioning, much less using it as a defense point in an argument.

Now note, I did not say there might not be other Asian servers doing this (and probably are). I am just pointing out the absurdity of "Chinese Alliance Servers" due to the facts of availability in that region (none) and internet access to the rest of the world (very limited and controlled).

Ok, very well, since you've decided to focus on an incorrect detail instead of the case as a whole, from hence forth I will use the phrase "Engineered Alliance Server" instead of "Chinese Alliance Server". You can still buy levels online from engineered alliance servers, so when you see someone with the curse you have no idea how they got it. I've seen cursed pirates run in adventure mode so surely there are some pirates who did not "earn" them, so they hold no meaning in the game.

I'm glad we can agree that the original assertion made was in fact false and misleading.

And realistically how many people do you think would pay to do something like that? Not enough to worry about much less mention in defense of this narrative, as that is reaching.

You do realize people who play the Hourglass mode also play Adventure so naturally you will see people there with the curses and earned them - I've seen many myself. You've shown nothing to elicit that sort of conclusion other than your own paranoia that it MIGHT happen. All you are doing is trying to throw shade on others achievements that you yourself have yet to obtain.

I am sure there are those that did not "earn" them by playing in alliance servers and cheesing the mode or mass loss farming, even some that paid for preferred access to those "stolen" servers (which in itself is technically against Microsoft's Terms of Service and I wish was enforced more vigorously, especially since they advertise it openly - THIS is actual gatekeeping!), but the number that actually paid for leveling I can assure you is small (especially at those prices) and statistically negligible for any discussion.

@lordqulex said in The Loss Farming Fallacy:

@dlchief58 said in The Loss Farming Fallacy:

I am sure there are those that did not "earn" them by playing in alliance servers and cheesing the mode or mass loss farming, even some that paid for preferred access to those "stolen" servers (which in itself is technically against Microsoft's Terms of Service and I wish was enforced more vigorously, especially since they advertise it openly - THIS is actual gatekeeping!), but the number that actually paid for leveling I can assure you is small (especially at those prices) and statistically negligible for any discussion.

That's kind of the point of this thread... I feel that the number of people loss farming is "statistically negligible" so we can stop using them as a straw man to gatekeep the curses from the community and should raise allegiance rewards for losses to make the game mode more enjoyable. So... thank you for agreeing with me... I think?

No, I am not agreeing on that point - not one bit and never even implied that. Buying levels - negligible and preposterous to even enter this discussion. Loss farming - not so much I fear, and would increase with increased rewards for less effort. In fact it has all but been stated by those requesting the change, though carefully worded to prevent them from being called on it.

Requiring effort, dedication and skill to obtain something is not "gatekeeping" as you people keep trying to paint it in order to justify the sense of entitlement going around here - it is called ACHIEVEMENT.

@lordqulex said in The Loss Farming Fallacy:

@dlchief58 said in The Loss Farming Fallacy:

@lordqulex said in The Loss Farming Fallacy:

@dlchief58 said in The Loss Farming Fallacy:

I am sure there are those that did not "earn" them by playing in alliance servers and cheesing the mode or mass loss farming, even some that paid for preferred access to those "stolen" servers (which in itself is technically against Microsoft's Terms of Service and I wish was enforced more vigorously, especially since they advertise it openly - THIS is actual gatekeeping!), but the number that actually paid for leveling I can assure you is small (especially at those prices) and statistically negligible for any discussion.

That's kind of the point of this thread... I feel that the number of people loss farming is "statistically negligible" so we can stop using them as a straw man to gatekeep the curses from the community and should raise allegiance rewards for losses to make the game mode more enjoyable. So... thank you for agreeing with me... I think?

No, I am not agreeing on that point - not one bit and never even implied that. Buying levels - negligible and preposterous to even enter this discussion. Loss farming - not so much I fear, and would increase with increased rewards for less effort. In fact it has all but been stated by those requesting the change, though carefully worded to prevent them from being called on it.

Requiring effort, dedication and skill to obtain something is not "gatekeeping" as you people keep trying to paint it in order to justify the sense of entitlement going around here - it is called ACHIEVEMENT.

So I guess it doesn't matter then by your logic.

• Loss farming exists.
• Therefore some people have the curse without exerting effort or skill (it takes LOTS of dedication to loss farm).
• Therefore getting the curse is not an ACHIEVEMENT.
• Therefore there is absolutely no reason not to increase allegiance gains because the curses mean NOTHING.

Again, this literally is you gatekeeping the curse from people because they hold an overinflated sense of achievement over you.

Really what it comes down was what I said in another post. The changes community day had were huge. Less pressure, less tension, less expectations, more fun. Increased allegiance gains made the game mode more fun for a lot of us. And you're more concerned about the sense of "achievement" another pirate may or may not feel than making sure other players in the shared game have fun. Players who have fun in hourglass will continue to play it. If it continues to be a miserable grind, people will get the curses and get out. I guess it's more important to feel achieved for having a cosmetic than to have a healthy population in a game mode that would ensure its success.

I question your initial train of thought as it is extremely flawed, but will leave it at that. I don't want to incur any Monkey Wrath.

Pretty much what you are saying only confirms that loss farming would increase with increased payout. More people played and they likely didn't win much more than they did previously. I don't want to go around and do this dance again, but your train of thought only reinforces the idea that loss farming would increase...it just would be less painful and over quicker, which is what is really being requested. Most of those asking for the change have made it quite clear that once they have what they want, they are done with the mode and an increased payout is not going to change that. I've been around enough achievement hunters that I understand the mental workings here - many people will go for the path of least resistance to get what they want, even to the point of petitioning the developers to make tasks easier when all else fails (i.e. there is no easy cheese method).

The claims of "gatekeeping" are just a red herring to distract and try to make others feel guilty for being good at something.

I'm ending this on my end now, having stated what needed to be said while trying to be respectful and on topic.

@dlchief58 a dit dans The Loss Farming Fallacy :

Loss farming - not so much I fear, and would increase with increased rewards for less effort. In fact it has all but been stated by those requesting the change, though carefully worded to prevent them from being called on it.

No, we argue on the other hand that increased rewards would lead to LESS loss farming by encouraging players instead what feels like punishing them to many. One way to check....

Requiring effort, dedication and skill to obtain something is not "gatekeeping" as you people keep trying to paint it in order to justify the sense of entitlement going around here - it is called ACHIEVEMENT.

What you call "achievement" is called "maybe doable if I have a lifetime" for some players. It's just impossible to do for them in the expected 5 years that this game will still last.

Again, the real question is "do these players deserve to have the curses at one point" or not.
If not, then everything is fine.
If yes, give a boost to allegiance over the board like you did on community day. Take this opportunity to raise the bar for the curses a bit if you want, so it's the same grind. Just make it enjoyable for bad players so they play it. Fun CAN BE nothing more than flashy numbers.

Edit : Damn @LordQulex every time we post at the same time you read my mind.

@crowedhunter a dit dans The Loss Farming Fallacy :

@jolly-ol-yep Wow, that's a good point. Triple the number and make the pie spin 3x faster. Would trick my lizard brain.

I know right ? I'm sure this'll work. I used to get my behind wiped all the time in Overwatch (the 1st and only one ofc). If you couldn't farm lootboxes for chances to get that cool skin you wanted when losing, if every loss's XP was a tenth of a win, then of course every Spamzo headshot gets more and more infuriating and frustrating and I sure wouldn't have spent years on this game. It'd have been over after 3 games.

Edit : The fun comes when you don't care if you lose, don't forget PvPers had 5 more years to learn how to deal with sinks. It's new for a lot of people.