Captancy - Why we need crew captains

  • In every party there is a leader, however in Sea of Thieves every crewmember is a special snowflake that can't be less or more than anyone else, this needs to end and I'll explain why.

    Ever since the alpha I have questioned why do we always have to be hostage to the matchmaking system, but when the closed crews were introduced my issues diminushed since it was a good temporary patchwork to the bigger issue, although it was not a solution in it of itself. Now I see myself having to return to these issues before the game completess one year, since now we have to once again adress the problem that is matchmaking and why the "open crew" function is still hell.

    Stop me if you heard this one before. You are in a sloop and decide to open the crew so you can have another player join as a safety measure incase you disconnect out of the game (because we still don't have a reconnect feature) that way we have a way to keep returning to our session, however the guy that comes in is a complete jerk because he drops your anchor, drops your loot in the ocean, bombs your ship with gunpowder, rams your ship into rocks... and there is nothing you can do because you can't brig people in a two player sloop. You effectively ended your session by having another player do things out of your control. How about that time you were in a brigantine and 2 players join you and decide to lock you in the brig hijacking your playsession? Or when you have 4 players in your galleon but you notice one of them is about to do something stupid but you have to wait 3 votes to get the idiot into the brig... which by then would be too late?

    I could go on, but the point is that the brig is a failure in maintaining the order in the crew since there is no effective way to deal with uncooperative random crewmates and worse still is that duos can't even use it. Now you might be thinking "perhaps you shouldn't play open crew", and you are right, as I mentioned before I said that closed crews was effective in resolving most issues crews had, however open crews is still broken, and that is my point, an entire function of the game is completely malfunctional. With that in mind what is my proposal?

    Captancy: Players are randomly assiged the role of captain during the matchmaking lobby or you may enter an empty lobby as a captain and start matchmaking. As a captain you have the following privileges:

    • You can no longer be brigged.

    As the captain you can't be voted into the brig.

    • You have the power to place any number of players into the brig.

    Simply opening the menu and selecting the player name, you can send it to the brig with a single vote.

    • You take priority while handling certain ship functions.

    If a player is at the wheel and he isn't the captain, you can shove him off the wheel and control it instead. If a player is handling the sails, you can shove him off the sail and control it instead. Etc...

    • You can soft lock the anchor.

    You may place a lock in the anchor preventing anyone but you from using it.

    • Your voyage vote is the law.

    Your vote starting and cancelling a voyage is worth 4 votes.

    No one man should have all that power, I hear you say, but I agree, so my suggestion is to keep this function as an open crew exclusivity, closed crews can ignore this function since it's implied that all players can comunicate with one another and can settle their issues with simple comunication. One important note I'd like to add is that if you swap between closed crew and open crew in the menu, you should automatically lose or gain the captain status, so for example you swap from closed to open crew, and you are alone in the ship, you become the captain, if you change back into closed you lose captain status. If there are more than one person in the ship while switching to open crew, one will be randomly assigned captain.

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  • @urihamrayne I totally with your analsys, but i feel your Solution needs to be tweak abit. I do like and want the idea of ship Captaincy. As sailing does require a Hierarchal Struture to function Correctly and Dynamic Role Crews only tend to Work if all members of the Crew are Experienced Enough thus i only found this to work in Closed Crews.

  • People just need to learn that they're not always going to get their way and either need to leave or get with the program. Mind you, I'm referring to the same-crew griefers here...

    The problem is with the people; not the game.

    I know it's been said before, but LFGs are truly a great resource - they allow you to cherry-pick your crew with qualities that you want and see their stats before they join.

  • All I want is for legends to be able to join more legends. (Open crew Legends)Getting athena runs with randoms is not easy. Even if you get them to vote on mission they all leave during 1st turn in.

  • @urihamrayne I don't want to make a massive post here and I have another point below, but I believe that most of your uses of the brig are not really what is intended. For example, specifically in you galleon example: the brig is supposed to be punitive (or humorous) not preventive. It's easy to get the whole group to brig someone after they blow something up, not before.

    Regarding your solution, its super dictator-y. I understand your point about the need for supremacy of command on a ship, but I have two counter points:

    • This isn't a realistic game, but even if it was: mutiny and lack of discipline on pirate ships is a thing. In fact, it's a thing that has seldom been achieved as well as this game does.
    • A major point of this game is focusing on soft-skills and winning with them. Also, tools, not rules. Enforcing the rule of the captain by making them the boss hurts that dynamic.

    Now to my other point: I've said it a lot before, this is all solved with a not-in-the-map HUB island, instead of the log in screen. On this heavily populated island, channel wide chat is a thing, and there would be multiple LFG channels too. You could have dueling arenas, pub-games, and player housing (giving us a much-needed high-end money sink) without affecting the game as it is, because once you go to the docks, you can either join randomly, alone and locked or with a crew that you put together on the HUB (let's call it 'Tortuga'), and the crew you assembled will have assembled for a purpose.

  • @ubersnail-prime Flavour should not govern decision making. For optimal gameplay flavour needs to be sacrificed sometimes, and I did expect the mutiny argument to rear it's ugly head around here.

    There is no point in a game that has you sit down for 1-6 hours tell you that the reason you lost your progress or was denied the ability to continue playing because of a mutinous pirate that you are unable to do anything to punish or prevent. The only way to not have to deal with uncooperative pirates is in controled LFG parties or in closed crews, however that was not my point, it's the first option when any player opens this game, open crews is the newbie bait that drags them into a world of unfun experiences. That is a horrible first impression to give a player, to enter a crew where he is either unable to do anything or has his experience hijacked.

    @Galactic-Geek GeeK The problem is indeed the players, but there are no tools in place for the players to gain a higher control of the situation on open crews, LFG and closed crews are fine as they are, but this is a major gameplay function that just doesn't work consistently, you can't garantee to have a good session on a open group as much as you can in other functions, sometimes people just want to jump in and play SoT without having to open third party software to meticulously form a party that does something that shares an interest.

    This is very important, you can't let flavour always dictate gameplay, this is how you get flawed game design.

  • @urihamrayne said in Captancy - Why we need crew captains:

    @ubersnail-prime Flavour should not govern decision making. For optimal gameplay flavour needs to be sacrificed sometimes, and I did expect the mutiny argument to rear it's ugly head around here.

    Not sure what you mean by 'flavor.'

    My point was that soft-skills (your ability to think creatively, manage a group by your words and actions, and communicate) are heavily featured and designed in this game. You proposals would undermine that.

  • @ubersnail-prime "thinking creatively, managing a group with words and actions, and being communicative" will not stop players from hijaking open crew session and providing bad experiences beyond anyone's control, this gets worse on duo dituations where you can't even use the one gameplay tool intended to be punitive for bad behaviour. Implying that because there were mutinees in piratedom therefore you can't give players tools to prevent uncooperative behaviour in open crews is putting the flavour in front of the gameplay.

  • Can you imagine the grief power of a Captain with your system? I would be hesitant to EVER join an open crew unless I was captain, because my play experience would be completely at the Captain's mercy. Others would rightly fear sailing on my ship for the same reason. What you propose would effectively be the end to Open Crew.

    I'm just spit balling here:

    • Give the ship creator two votes. If the ship creator is gone, give the crewman with the most current time on the ship two votes. This effectively ends the sloop vote dilemma.
    • Once brigged, give the remaining crew a vote to "Make 'em walk the plank." Effectively kicking them from the server. Perhaps make this cost each of the voting crewmen some gold? I know this can still be abused, but with the vote, it's a more democratic system and prevents bad players from ruining the experience for the entire crew.
  • @urihamrayne Only Ken-Oh can have that much power over men.

    The answer is easy. Sole Successor. Turn friendly fire on. You don't like what they are doing? Kill them. You want to be the captain? Show them who the captain is.

  • @captain-arcanic

    What you propose would effectively be the end to Open Crew.

    And a kick system wouldn't? Even I wasn't silly enough to suggest that. The truth is that my captancy has more chanses of making things more orderly in open crews by expecting one person to be more reasonable then all 4, rather than the other way around. With captancy it's impossible to hijack a playsession from someone, because even if you join and you are not the captain, the worse that could happen to you is that you get sent to the brig, where you still gain rep and gold, since it wasn't your session to begin with, you can always leave and get a new one, no hours wasted. The only conceavable way you could grief in this system is if someone as a captain purposely plays well for the entire duration of the session only to lock everyone in the brig at the end preventing anyone from selling things, but he has to pretend to not be a griefer for a very long time.

    With open crews players will feel more confident entering or opening their crews, there will be more order and less chaos.

  • @urihamrayne My experience with other crews, open crews and randos has been overall positive, and not because it always started out that way. And by positive I do not mean it never ended in betrayal. I mean, I had fun and I never felt that it was out of my control or that I was being 'griefed'.

    • First off, I would never switch to open crew purely to prevent a disconnect error. I play with an open crew when that is the experience I want, and only then. That 'work-around' for connection issues is asking for trouble. I also never get disconnected, so... fingers crossed
    • I use the brig to discipline. It's democratic. If I can't get the votes, then maybe I'm the one that's in the wrong.
    • Because I am not using the open-duo-sloop to try to jerry-rig a connectivity issue, I have no issue re-logging if I honestly can't get the otehr member of my sloop to work with me a bit, but first...
    • I try to consider what type of game they are playing. If they logged in, they want to play. Maybe, if it's really important to me how the session goes, I don't play with randos. If "some people just want to watch the world burn," maybe I should pull up a chair and try it their way. I might have fun. Otherwise, see above options.
    • Getting locked in the brig on a 2 or 3 person ship? Talk your way out of it. Can't? Maybe you were meaner than you're admitting. Work on your people skills. Or log out and log back in. No big deal.
    • "...thinking creatively, managing a group with words and actions, and being communicative" will not stop players from hijaking open crew session and providing bad experiences beyond anyone's control..."- @UrihamRayne This has not been my experience.

    I'm not saying no one is ever a jerk. I'm saying this game has plenty of tools to deal with it. The tools (or rules) you propose would:

    • Give you more power than I think is good for this game.
    • Not really solve the issue (certainly not your connectivity issue), and...
    • give those players too much control, too. God forbid a so-called 'griefer' gets captainacy of a ship I log into...
  • @urihamrayne said in Captancy - Why we need crew captains:

    @captain-arcanic

    What you propose would effectively be the end to Open Crew.

    And a kick system wouldn't? Even I wasn't silly enough to suggest that. The truth is that my captancy has more chanses of making things more orderly in open crews by expecting one person to be more reasonable then all 4, rather than the other way around. With captancy it's impossible to hijack a playsession from someone, because even if you join and you are not the captain, the worse that could happen to you is that you get sent to the brig, where you still gain rep and gold, since it wasn't your session to begin with, you can always leave and get a new one, no hours wasted. The only conceavable way you could grief in this system is if someone as a captain purposely plays well for the entire duration of the session only to lock everyone in the brig at the end preventing anyone from selling things, but he has to pretend to not be a griefer for a very long time.

    With open crews players will feel more confident entering or opening their crews, there will be more order and less chaos.

    Silly is in the eye of the beholder. Being able to kick people off the sails, wheel and anchor, being un-briggable, having sole say on voyages, with the wrong captaincy, these things could and would make for a bad play experience for the other crew members. And they wouldn't have to wait until the end of a voyage. As the non-captain in this situation, you are completely at the mercy of one stranger. A bad captain could purposefully waste hours of your play time by deciding NOT to turn in loot, and you couldn't do jack about it.

    As I said, the kick function was a spitball idea, but at least it would be a democratic majority of the crew. And even without it, giving two votes to brig a crewman works as a simple coding fix.

  • @ubersnail-prime anecdotal stuff doesn't really matter in this discussion, I can just say that ever since the alpha, 7 out of every 10 open crews I participate are full of uncooperative crewmates that don't communicate, and still wouldn't be an argument in favour of my captancy, because you don't know me, you can't know if I'm telling you the truth. So why should I take your open crew experience as evidence that we don't need captancy?

    In closed crews, captancy is not necessary, you haven't been reading what I've been saying, let me highlight it for you: "...thinking creatively, managing a group with words and actions, and being communicative" will not stop players from hijaking OPEN CREW session and providing bad experiences beyond anyone's control...". This is because I know that closed crews are ten times more likely to be a group of people that communicate, it's a lobby that has been most likely created through a third party tool and may or may not have the "use a mic" as a requirement.

    Open crews don't work consistently, you can't garantee that you will play with people that communicate, you can't garantee you'll play with people with ssimilar game experience as you, so why treat everyone equally in this particular scenario? Why do players have to be hostages of luck in order to get a good playsession? Give players control and you'll have less chaos, if griefers get this control, more often than not they will only hurt their own play session, not someone else's. This is a solution to the issue that doesn't require a votekick, which is a pretty fair system that has been around for years in gaming, but for ssea of thieves players deem it too punitive, so the alternative is obvious, if you are denied the power to remove a player from the game, you need to transfer this power to another system, and in a lot of duo situations, the brig isn't even a function that is usable. Therefore, you either do my captancy suggestion, or a nerfed version of it, limited to only brigging one person at a time with a long cooldown.. etc, or you keep this broken system going until it dooms SoT into relying solely on third party tools.

  • @captain-arcanic Your argument is that my system doesn't work in the absolute worst case scenario, while the reality is that open crews don't even need to be in the worsst case scenario to not work, by default they present issues that are constantly disruptive to player experience and provide no countermeasures to players genuinely interested in getting into SoT. All my proposals are nerfable, the only thing that can't be argued is that this system isn't necessary.

  • @urihamrayne said in Captancy - Why we need crew captains:

    @captain-arcanic ... the only thing that can't be argued is that this system isn't necessary.

    Respectfully agree to disagree.

  • I have to agree there needs to be at least an option to start a game as the party leader or Captain as it were. Its very annoying to jump into a game and be stuck doing what someone else wants to do the entire time, or stuck at a dock with a bunch of jolly rogers jump about doing nothing and playing music for hours on end. I'm not saying we shouldn't have it the way it is now as well, but I see no harm in having the option for having a designated captain of the vessel.

    Along with that I think we should have the option of voting to boot players from the game as well, or at least making it to where if they end up in the brig they don't get a share of the loot. I was doing a cursed sails event and had some dude that was content doing absolutely nothing so we put him in the brig. When it came time to cash in, he still got a share of the loot. He Said "Thanks for the free Loot!" and dropped out of course.

  • @urihamrayne said in Captancy - Why we need crew captains:

    All my proposals are nerfable, the only thing that can't be argued is that this system isn't necessary.

    I can argue it. Free country.

    anecdotal stuff doesn't really matter in this discussion,

    You're not the boss of me.

    let me highlight it for you: "...thinking creatively, managing a group with words and actions, and being communicative" will not stop players from hijaking OPEN CREW session

    I understand your point. I just don't agree. It is possible to do both. My point is that most 'troubles' I have had with open crews have been solvable, either by talking or chatting it out, by relaxing and opening myself up to a new type of experience than what I was planning, or by re-logging before a significant amount of time was invested. All within my control.

  • @athlondude said in Captancy - Why we need crew captains:

    Along with that I think we should have the option of voting to boot players from the game as well, or at least making it to where if they end up in the brig they don't get a share of the loot. I was doing a cursed sails event and had some dude that was content doing absolutely nothing so we put him in the brig. When it came time to cash in, he still got a share of the loot. He Said "Thanks for the free Loot!" and dropped out of course.

    I like the idea, here, but I think it is mostly concerned with being more punative. rare put the brig in instead of booting players, as they put it, to allow people to be redeemed, and that has actually been my experience, where a problematic person usually comes around in the end and plays nice...er.

    As for people in the brig not getting a share in the loot: there's just no reason for this. They don't get part of your loot. If they want to sit in the brig for an hour rather than play, I don't understand them, but that's a certain dedication, especially since the game will boot them for inactivity. They are still part of the crew.

    On a kind of related note: in my experience, when you sink a crew in an alliance (for whatever reason, I don't judge) they almost always drop from the alliance afterward. I don't get that. My intent has always been to leave them in while I turn and still let them have 50%...

  • @urihamrayne What you propose does not sound like a fun and welcoming shared world adventure game. (superiority complex)

  • @urihamrayne 3rd party software? It's Xbox Live software, which is owned by Microsoft, which also happens to own Rare... So, yeah, not exactly 3rd-party software. Besides, whether it is or isn't isn't even an issue - people just unnecessarily make it one when it really isn't. It takes me less than a minute to set 1 up (especially using the "view history" option for LFGs), and within another, I start getting replies. That's faster than the game's loading screen! So, instead of watching boring, repetitive loading screens, you can have a group already set up by the time you land in the game.

  • @galactic-geek anything that is a tool or resource that is not programmed in the game can be considered third party. Discord for example is a third party software, but I generalize it as being the same as xbox live, because it serves the same function as far as parties are concerned.

    When I log into overwatch, if I want to set up a party, all the tools are available in the game for me to invite and set up the party. When I play starcraft and I want to create a custom lobby, all the tools are in the game. Same goes for Fortnite, Dragon's Nest, Lost Saga, Dota 2, League of Legends... list goes on. SoT wants you to use third party tools to provide functional party settings, and I am sure this was a microsoft decision, but that doesn't matter either way, this isn't about LFG or closed crews, this is about open crews, and as I said before, sometimes people just want to press a button and play the game instead of tabbing out to organize a group, but the experience is not going to be good, it's mostly ever going to be bad and chaotic.

  • @urihamrayne said in Captancy - Why we need crew captains:

    @galactic-geek anything that is a tool or resource that is not programmed in the game can be considered third party. Discord for example is a third party software, but I generalize it as being the same as xbox live, because it serves the same function as far as parties are concerned.

    When I log into overwatch, if I want to set up a party, all the tools are available in the game for me to invite and set up the party. When I play starcraft and I want to create a custom lobby, all the tools are in the game. Same goes for Fortnite, Dragon's Nest, Lost Saga, Dota 2, League of Legends... list goes on. SoT wants you to use third party tools to provide functional party settings, and I am sure this was a microsoft decision, but that doesn't matter either way, this isn't about LFG or closed crews, this is about open crews, and as I said before, sometimes people just want to press a button and play the game instead of tabbing out to organize a group, but the experience is not going to be good, it's mostly ever going to be bad and chaotic.

    At this point you're just railing against a trend in games. You want your tools in game. A lot of us want and use our tools out of game (I prefer Discord, but as @Galactic-Geek said, XBox Live works perfectly fine.) You mentioned a few battle.net solutions as in-game solutions, which is funny, because they also have an out of game solution (b.net friends lists, channels and groups) which I use more than the in game group finder.

    All of that said, more is better, and, as I said above: I would love to see an in-game SoT group finder channel or tool (or HUB). No one is saying that is a bad idea. It's the dictatorship idea you suggest that I think is bad.

    Edit: and just a note about your definition of "Third Party"... That's just not what the term means. "Third Party" refers to software developed by another company for the primary company. Sea of Thieves was designed to work in the XBox Live environment and is fully owned and integrated.

  • @ubersnail-prime

    I generalize it because it serves the same function as far as parties are concerned.

    I am convinced that you skim over what I type and don't actually read it.

  • @urihamrayne I read and understand you. I just don't agree. Again. That can happen, believe it or not. Either way. I am done with this thread. I only reply now out of respect, so that you know that I saw your answer.

  • @urihamrayne said in Captancy - Why we need crew captains:

    sometimes people just want to press a button and play the game instead of tabbing out to organize a group, but the experience is not going to be good, it's mostly ever going to be bad and chaotic.

    If you're not willing to put in the work, then don't expect great results.

  • @galactic-geek said in Captancy - Why we need crew captains:

    @urihamrayne said in Captancy - Why we need crew captains:

    sometimes people just want to press a button and play the game instead of tabbing out to organize a group, but the experience is not going to be good, it's mostly ever going to be bad and chaotic.

    If you're not willing to put in the work, then don't expect great results.

    Plus, I'd say my success rate is more in the range of 60-70%.

  • @captain-arcanic said in Captancy - Why we need crew captains:

    @galactic-geek said in Captancy - Why we need crew captains:

    @urihamrayne said in Captancy - Why we need crew captains:

    sometimes people just want to press a button and play the game instead of tabbing out to organize a group, but the experience is not going to be good, it's mostly ever going to be bad and chaotic.

    If you're not willing to put in the work, then don't expect great results.

    Plus, I'd say my success rate is more in the range of 60-70%.

    I'm not talking about you, but rather your crew, if you choose to go with an open crew - remember, it's a team effort.

  • @urihamrayne

    Everything you say is why I play only with friends I know whom I have been gaming with for over 20 years. Yes I know I am an old man now.. Where did it all go?

  • @galactic-geek said in Captancy - Why we need crew captains:

    If you're not willing to put in the work, then don't expect great results.

    Is that a jab at Rare? I'm questioning why basic matchmaking functionality places players in hostage situations where they are more often then not at the mercy of random player with varying level of cooperation. It's always easy to transfer the job for the players to solve the issue through third party, but I do expect quality products when I am asked full AAA price, unlike most in this forum.

  • @urihamrayne said in Captancy - Why we need crew captains:
    Stop me if you heard this one before. You are in a sloop


    stops

  • @urihamrayne said in Captancy - Why we need crew captains:

    @galactic-geek said in Captancy - Why we need crew captains:

    If you're not willing to put in the work, then don't expect great results.

    Is that a jab at Rare?

    No, it wasn't. It was a jab at any player who is so lazy that they aren't willing to spend 2 minutes to ensure they have a good time, only to cry about it afterwards while blaming everything under the sun but themselves. The tools are available (it shouldn't matter where they are) - one merely needs to choose to use them; otherwise, they're only cheating themselves.

  • Ahoy!
    I actually joined the forums tonight to see if anyone had raised an issue about groups. I decided that I would start running a brig with open crew, but both people that joined were not helpful and often just off doing whatever and running into rocks most of the time, OH! and dropping anchor randomly for no reason.
    It got me to thinking that maybe a ranking system of some sort after you leave game to vote for your last crew mates. When they are trash and you had to leave your game... then they get a downvote. After a while you have your trash getting matched with trash and people who care about playing even just a little, get upvotes and become matchable to others like them?
    Just a thought. Glad to know others are just as frustrated as me. Love the game, hopt to keep playing and see things like this get panned out.
    -From an Old Salt
    Skeleton Exploder Soulsucca

  • @daddytodd Interesting idea, but I fear it would be too easily abused.

  • @urihamrayne Highly agree. big reason lot of my PC friends do not buy in is due to price. Like myself these guys play on PC with no XBOX live game pass thingy. The $60 pricetag is a tough one to swallow. I had a friend buy it for me and I swear by it after I have played it, but if not for my buddy I would have never bought the game @ $60 and understand why most my PC friends will never play.

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