I just finished a Skelly ship. Was on a brig, had an alliance with a galleon. At the end we won, our ship got sunk by the meg. We got to the outpost, they were talking about splitting loot, then they open fired and killed us. Booted us from party and left alliance to turn in loot. I know this is a pirate game, but common. If this game wants mechanics where people are supposed to co-operate then don't allow betrayals. I wish I got a screen shot of their team or recorded. This game is becoming too toxic and will lose all it's players if this does not stop.
Something needs to be done about alience betrayals.
No mate this are the consequences for making an alliance with strangers. I’m against betrayers, I never betray, but anyways it’s fun to think about the danger of getting betrayed, it’s fun to think in the possibility about that anything can happen, and it’s realistic, betrayals exists. It makes it less PvE because this way theres a chance to fight
@xxx1ra1xxx said in Something needs to be done about alience betrayals.:
No mate this are the consequences for making an alliance with strangers. I’m against betrayers, I never betray, but anyways it’s fun to think about the danger of getting betrayed, it’s fun to think in the possibility about that anything can happen, and it’s realistic, betrayals exists. It makes it less PvE because this way theres a chance to fight
Except you can not invite people into a server so everyone not on your crew is a stranger. The chances of encountering someone you know randomly on a server is almost as rare as winning the lottery.
@necromancer-v dijo en Something needs to be done about alience betrayals.:
@xxx1ra1xxx said in Something needs to be done about alience betrayals.:
No mate this are the consequences for making an alliance with strangers. I’m against betrayers, I never betray, but anyways it’s fun to think about the danger of getting betrayed, it’s fun to think in the possibility about that anything can happen, and it’s realistic, betrayals exists. It makes it less PvE because this way theres a chance to fight
Except you can not invite people into a server so everyone not on your crew is a stranger. The chances of encountering someone you know randomly on a server is almost as rare as winning the lottery.
I know, that’s the point, trusting strangers is the price for making an alliance
@personalc0ffee said in Something needs to be done about alience betrayals.:
Nothing needs to be done about alliance betrayals as they are working as intended.
Alliances are meant to be skaky and not last if there is poor communication.
One must always be on the lookout for shifty pirates.
Without betrayals, we would just have farming servers.
@personalc0ffee said in Something needs to be done about alience betrayals.:
Nothing needs to be done about alliance betrayals as they are working as intended.
Alliances are meant to be skaky and not last if there is poor communication.
One must always be on the lookout for shifty pirates.
Without betrayals, we would just have farming servers.
It is one thing if there is poor communication. It is another if a larger crew sneeks attacks you while in the alliance and robs you. If Rare wants to keep the game purely PvP then they need to stop forcing events that require you to team up with other. That or implement the ability to invite other teams to a server.
Removing people from an alliance after you steal their loot has no benefit to them. It is only for their amusement. If Rare wants to keep a player base then they need to stop this overly toxic behavior. People already call this game "No Man's Seas" for a reason.
I think the alliance system works fine, there needs to be a possibility that an alliance will be broken so that you have to rethink your strategy.
For instance, you take on skelly ships and both crews collect as much loot as they can, take it back to your ship and have someone on your crew keep an eye on it, because you know the other crew is thinking of stealing it all.
The game is built with the threat of treachery as one of the main deciding factors when you choose to interact with other crews. Its an element built into the game, designed to make you rethink your strategy so that you protect your treasure.@necromancer-v said in Something needs to be done about alience betrayals.:
I just finished a Skelly ship. Was on a brig, had an alliance with a galleon. At the end we won, our ship got sunk by the meg. We got to the outpost, they were talking about splitting loot, then they open fired and killed us. Booted us from party and left alliance to turn in loot. I know this is a pirate game, but common. If this game wants mechanics where people are supposed to co-operate then don't allow betrayals. I wish I got a screen shot of their team or recorded. This game is becoming too toxic and will lose all it's players if this does not stop.
Sorry to say, but that's not toxic.
The galleon just secured the loot they had on their ship.Seems like you let your guard down and they didn't, they had randoms on their ship that weren't from their own crew. They couldn't know what your intentions were and made a decision to secure the loot and not risk losing it. They probably just left the alliance so you couldn't see where they were to make sure you couldn't retaliate.
The galleon did nothing wrong, all they did was making sure that the loot on their ship is safe from strangers.
It sucks to be on the other end but that's just part of the game, keep your guard up.
@aarghmaargho
To be honest, it's a bit toxic however still part of the game.
There's no need at all to break an alliance for a crew with the loot other then to screw with other players, if you hand in the loot you get 100% rewards so there's no reason at all.There's a big difference with "recovering all loot yourself" and turning it in for max profit but still in an alliance to give the others a share and to break it before selling.
What i might miss is the possibility to vote a ship out of the alliance, for example when someone joins with wrong sails during a battle because some ship forgot to remove the alliance flag and thus ruins the entire achievment.
@x1-two
Exactly, there is no reason at all to end an alliance besides being a d****e.
You still get 100% of what you turn in, and recieve 50% of everything else for the rest of the session so it's probably a loss in the long run to leave.However i've been that d****e once, but only because the option to vote someone out of the alliance wasn't avaliable.
We hade one ship constantly attacking us over the map and also in the skeleton battle and one of our alliance ships forgot to remove offer alliance so that ship joined in during the skeleton ships and would have gotten all our loot as a reward for being idiots.. so we ended the alliance and turned everything in.
Otherwise we always keep the alliance active even when we got all the loot.But i still don't think that they need to change how the alliances works in general, it adds to the game when you know you need to be first in the water to recover all the good stuff and then sail of like the ship is on fire :)
Was about to log off but decided to part do a merchant run to Sanctuary to get rid of some chickens and a snake.
As I approached I saw a brig there and an alliance formed notification popped up.
I parked up at the next dock and grabbed a golden chicken and turned it in. On the way back to my sloop it was kegged, I grabbed another golden chicken and jumped off the ship. I was then shot in the back and killed.
I do not understand the logic on this I was turning in 2 x Golden Chickens, 2 x Black Chickens and a golden snake. That has got to be worth nearly 5000 gold on mission but instead they kill me and turn them in off mission for 500-700 gold.
Madness
@phantaxus
It's because it was players that don't understand the game, a golden chicken is about 150 gold without mission and 1500 on mission so they are just stupid.I've met those as well just take a deep breath and get back into it :)
But it's not the alliance fault, it's the players because the alliance should have given you free passage but since they don't know what they are doing it all goes wrong.
I did, the next alliance worked out better.
We were finishing off an Athena but there was another ship at our Athena chest location so we decided to tackle the active fort while we waited for them to leave.
While at the fort a galleon sailed past and an alliance formed notification popped up. They carried on up north to the Skeleton ships. We finished the fort and turned in. Then we collected our Athena chest and turned that in. Shortly after our alliance partner turned in the skelly loot at the same outpost and thanked us for the Athena, and one of our crew got a commendation because our alliance partner had done a skelly mission they were missing.
This is how alliances should work.
@Phantaxus I've stopped expecting players to know what they're doing UNTIL they communicate, and even then...
@Necromancer-V I think an easy fix is any loot picked up during an alliance will always count at 50% to other alliance members, even if the crew selling it has left the alliance.
Them destroying you when you arrive at the outpost is just safe playing from them, they don't know if you'd try to steal any treasure. But leaving the alliance after killing you and before selling the loot is just a little bit toxic.Them destroying you when you arrive at the outpost is just safe playing from them, they don't know if you'd try to steal any treasure. But leaving the alliance after killing you and before selling the loot is just a little bit toxic.
I agree, there's one thing guarding the treasure but then leaving the alliance is another, we never allow alliance members onboard after the event is finished, if they board we will blunderbuss them but we still won't leave the alliance.
@eviltortoise said in Something needs to be done about alience betrayals.:
@aarghmaargho
To be honest, it's a bit toxic however still part of the game.Not toxic, but definitly bad sportsmanship.
There's no need at all to break an alliance for a crew with the loot other then to screw with other players, if you hand in the loot you get 100% rewards so there's no reason at all.
As I said, people disband to keep their whereabouts hidden. When you've sunk people, there is a very big chance that they want revenge. Staying in the alliance only offers them the chance to see you across the map.
There's a big difference with "recovering all loot yourself" and turning it in for max profit but still in an alliance to give the others a share and to break it before selling.
See above. All we can tell from OP is that they were on another ship and that the crew played it safe. We don't know where the other crew was and what distance there was between them.
I've done it yesterday with my crew. We did the battle with an alliance and delivered all loot, after that the alliance got disbanded but we forgot the flag was still up. We were doing a fort and another galleon rolls up and joins, alright fine, but we were at the captain already. So captain dies, key falls and they start loading the loot. So we say that they can drop it on our ship and get 50% if they want. No response, so we decided to sink them and take all the loot. I died during the defending of the wholes we made and met them on the Ferry, they started cursing and all that how we were an alliance and we share the loot. That we were toxic etc. So we sail off to an outpost, disband alliance because we saw them sailing towards us on the map, and go to another outpost just "dissapear".
We're we toxic in that situation? No, we defended our loot that we worked for. And there is nothing wrong with that, alliance or not.
What i might miss is the possibility to vote a ship out of the alliance, for example when someone joins with wrong sails during a battle because some ship forgot to remove the alliance flag and thus ruins the entire achievment.
Would indeed be a nice addition indeed.
@aarghmaargho said in [Something needs to be done about alience betrayals.]
We're we toxic in that situation? No, we defended our loot that we worked for. And there is nothing wrong with that, alliance or not.
On that case I agree you weren't toxic or unsportsmanlike. If Rare changed the mechanics to "picked up in alliance, always gets 50%", then you could have left the alliance and they would have still got 50%, although in this case they didn't "deserve" it.
@riareth
That would be a nice solution, have chests/skulls and crates linked to the people that were in the alliance when it got picked up. That way, people can still leave the alliance and secure their loot, without holding the other alliance-memers in the dark with 0%@phantaxus Agree. Not to mention general questing becomes more efficient when in an alliance. If you're both off doing your own thing, you get more than you would have otherwise. It's a reflection of real life you get ahead faster with co-operative behaviour, yet, just like real life people don't do it and behave in a way that is self destructive.
@riareth said in Something needs to be done about alience betrayals.:
@Necromancer-V I think an easy fix is any loot picked up during an alliance will always count at 50% to other alliance members, even if the crew selling it has left the alliance.
Them destroying you when you arrive at the outpost is just safe playing from them, they don't know if you'd try to steal any treasure. But leaving the alliance after killing you and before selling the loot is just a little bit toxic.I disagree with this solution, yes it would solve people from being hurt from others "betraying" them, however it'll also reward people that attack you while in the alliance because they'll receive a cut no matter what. The alliance system is not and should never be a sure thing, it has to be a conscience choice instead of a thing you just do.
What most people fail to realise is that alliances aren't a new thing, the alliance system is just an easier of creating them. The ease in which you can join alliances on the fly without a single word shared between crews is also one of it's problems I think. How can you expect to have "trusted" companians when you haven't spoken a single word to them?
In my opinion the solution lies in treating it in a similar way as it was before. Try communicating with the other crew first, find enough trust that they're capable for the job and never let your guard down.
I see two sides to this. One the one hand, the whole intrigue and betrayal thing creates the kinds of story lines that Rare are going for. Just in this thread there have been a couple of stories that are as good as the last few movies I've watched. On the other hand, many times that betrayal and intrigue is created by doing emotional harm to a real human being on the other end, that is in some ways an unwilling participant (in the betrayal, not playing the game). Unlike other games where that kind to story narrative is generated by NPCs, so their has no real emotional harm happening on the other side. The emotional feeling of being betrayed is a very deep and the people calling out 'but it's just a game' fail to understand that.
The best way to frame it is that you are a part of the story narrative, and if you get betrayed and it ends in combat, it's generated a good story for you to tell the next day. Maybe next time you'll get a story that's just as exciting, but that has a better ending for you. The main reason I play this game is the human interaction and how people behave is fascinating. Mark my words, future PhD dissertations will be written on how people behave in this game. It's like being in an episode of Westworld - Life without limits, how will you behave?@fishst1ck I agree with you when you say:
however it'll also reward people that attack you while in the alliance because they'll receive a cut no matter what.
But I don't consider that a negative. Quite a few players want more PvP. And if you're in an unstable alliance, like when doing an event, making payout a sure thing could increase the amount of PvP, but without the risk of the losers being left with nothing.
There are a few situations that I would prefer a crew be left with nothing, like when they're being toxic in game chat, but from the posts on the forum those situations seem to happen less than the opposite. And on those situations, you can always report the players.
@riareth said in Something needs to be done about alience betrayals.:
@fishst1ck I agree with you when you say:
however it'll also reward people that attack you while in the alliance because they'll receive a cut no matter what.
But I don't consider that a negative. Quite a few players want more PvP. And if you're in an unstable alliance, like when doing an event, making payout a sure thing could increase the amount of PvP, but without the risk of the losers being left with nothing.
There are a few situations that I would prefer a crew be left with nothing, like when they're being toxic in game chat, but from the posts on the forum those situations seem to happen less than the opposite. And on those situations, you can always report the players.
I do consider it a negative as it would remove the "uneasy" part from the alliance, it'll make it an almost mandatory thing to do. I think it's the same as rewarding players the reputation immediately once they dug up a chest. By removing the risk of losing it all, you make the feature meaningless and hollow.
I think too many people that get betrayed, portrait themselves as the victim even though they choose to join the alliance without knowledge of the other crew and basically set themselves up for being betrayed. Sure there are definitely some trolls around, however I think most pirates are just opportunists.
Be on the look out for shady people. Some times you can tell they are not good people. I will paint with a broad brush and say if they are legend they have nothing to gain and have a higher chance of getting backstabbed in my experience. The other day we were in an alliance mid fight with a brig and a galleon came up and joined the alliance. They were young and inexperienced and the legend on the crew was a typical legend we hear about loud mouthed brash and full of himself. I grabbed their ladder as I just sunk a ship and mine was further away and was gonna shoot myself over to my ship and this kid kept standing infront of me pointing a gun at me telling me to start swimming and get off his boat, A real blow hard we knew these kids didn't wanna play nice so we dropped their barrels on their deck and the meg kept attacking them and only them so that was nice. In the end they the made away with some of the loot as the brig with us had 2 people drop out and left the poor solo the get ganked by these bad blow hards :(. Just be on the look out for bad people.
Toxic? Bad sportsmanship?
It's a tired cliché at this point but the game is called "Sea of Thieves" not "Sea of Fair Play".
SoT is a game that encourages people to STEAL from each other and in so doing hurting the progression of other players for your own selfish benefit. There's nothing sporting in that, and it certainly isn't "nice".
Events and encounters that force people together exist for one simple reason, and that is to drive social interaction and conflict, not for the sake of satisfying peoples PvE cravings.@fishst1ck said in Something needs to be done about alience betrayals.:
I do consider it a negative as it would remove the "uneasy" part from the alliance, it'll make it an almost mandatory thing to do. I think it's the same as rewarding players the reputation immediately once they dug up a chest. By removing the risk of losing it all, you make the feature meaningless and hollow.
I agree that it would remove quite a bit of the uneasy part from the Alliance, but some of it would remain. It's still a 100% vs 50% payout of any loot you deliver.
I think too many people that get betrayed, portrait themselves as the victim even though they choose to join the alliance without knowledge of the other crew and basically set themselves up for being betrayed.
If you're chasing the alliance commendations, there's very little choice but to take whatever alliance you can and consider any loot you get a bonus.
When doing a longer play session, like a full Athena, then you can take your time knowing a crew before allying.Sure there are definitely some trolls around, however I think most pirates are just opportunists.
Sinking an ally and stealing all loot is opportunism and I don't see major problems with that. But cancelling the alliance before selling is the "troll" part.
I fully get wanting to steal the treasure and being the one to hand it in, but come on in all honesty of your getting chased by a ship it’s not really possible to lose said ship and hide. You can create distance and hand in quickly, but I have never lost sight of a ship my crew has been chasing.
I explain this because stealing the treasure is one thing and I fully agree should be a possibility in the game not changed. You should be the crew that wants the 100% rather than the 50%. But ending an alliance on someone when handing in isn’t pirate, it’s just a d**k move. It isn’t done for anyone’s benefit it’s done to be a d**k.
Especially when you not persuing the ship in your alliance they leave with loot and still end the alliance before hand in. What benefit is there in stopping the other crew/s getting 50% other than being a monumental d**k.
We were doing the lore mission for Cursed sails for a buddy who needed it and as we were going passed the skellie ship fight area. We see a Galleon fighting the Ghost ships. We see them start to sink during the fight.
So we are like lets save the day for these guys and scoop them up then help fight the last waves with them.
We come in scoop up the guys in water as the ship is sunk now. We say we are here to help ya out.
The guys kept trying to stand behind us. So I knew he was trying to get position so I straight tell them "we will help ya get this loot back to outpost or wait till your ship is back for ya". Plus don't want the loot
They thank us and say they are going into party chat so I tell crew I dont know why they would but these guys are going to try and double cross us.
Captain ship spawns. We light it up ship sinks loot is in water. They keg us and try to attack as we battle our ship sinks. Their ship is still no where near area so all loot is lost.Not sure what the plan was but all loot was lost and no ship around to put loot on. Some just want to watch the world burn
@Necromancer-V I haven't read the responses because I've seen too many of these threads and it all repeats. I just want to share an experience this weekend.
We battled with a 5 ship alliance for Ancient Isles. We had a very diverse group and a couple had never been in an alliance before. We managed to defeat the skeletons and then came time to grab some loot.
Most had lost sight of the captain's ship, but it sunk directly in front of us. We called the other ships over (very brave thing to do especially for me who hates PvP) so that everyone could grab something.
As we all gathered we could hear questions about how sharing worked. I called out to let everyone know how the split worked and hoped they believed me. Then we all headed to Plunder to offload. We gave a chest to a sloop who hadn't managed to grab much if anything.
We started the hand in so that those who hadn't allied before could see they got a share. Then the flood gates opened and we could hear shock and amazement from crews as we all gained a nice boost.
That story is only to show that a great many players still don't know how the alliance loot works. I think a great many betrayals are because the other players think the player turning in the loot is the only one who gets the gold. They won't be able to see otherwise since they can't manage to stay allied long enough.
I am not saying that is always or even usually the case. I'm just saying it may be a factor in why there are so many threads about betrayals. I hope you manage to find a great alliance like we've been lucky enough to experience! It really does help to take the sting out of the bad encounters.
Once the poorly devised skelly ship event is over, alliances will calm down in terms of betrayal because you won't have ships in the same area and they won't know what chest you picked up until you turn it in... so, they won't know what they stand to lose should they break the alliance. In my opinion, the devs wanted the community to come together and then - as an understandable, but misguided, means of increasing replayability - added loot to the mix instead of just doobloons. If, as in previous events, there was no loot on the line, you'd have fewer betrayals. But, that is just the way it is. Behavior will likely shift a bit once the three weeks are up and longer lasting (voyage duration) alliances are formed. Except at forts - people will still behave like fools at forts.
But, there should be no penalty for breaking an alliance. An alliance system in a game based around theft is only as good as how easily it can be broken.
@personalc0ffee said in Something needs to be done about alience betrayals.:
Nothing needs to be done about alliance betrayals as they are working as intended.
Alliances are meant to be shaky and not last if there is poor communication.
One must always be on the lookout for shifty pirates.
Without betrayals, we would just have farming servers.
Alliances kind of killed my desire to play, the usual people I play with... that's all they do. They negotiate with ships and take them over until we have an entire farming server. I think alliances ruined this game to some extent.
@savagetwinky We'll have to see. It was something many were concerned about - and that may also increase once the event is over and people are back to the grind. It will only get worse once Rare decides to implement multi-ship lobbies.
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