@SavageTwinky Do you have an issue with the amount of ships for a Hoarding objective. If so just how many you feel would be needed to make both a hoarding or bounty system work roughly? And Why? I think 6 is pleanty enough. Thats 6 different teams of up to 4 players in an arena thats just as much as any other objective based arena game. It's the same as gun of icorus which is 3 v 3 of 4 players each.
PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.
@enf0rcer said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@savagetwinky said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@enf0rcer said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@savagetwinky said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@enf0rcer said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@betsill said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@enf0rcer It's not giving up on the PvEvP idea just accepting that 1. not everyone is into that, and 2. the way it's implemented now needs alot of work.
Having a PvE server would be the easiest way to deal with the problem in the short term, but it's also just a good option to provide players. Not only would it give people who just want to sail in relative peace and PvE a much improved experience, but PvPers like myself would also benefit by making it so that only people who want to PvP are in the PvP servers. Heck even I would probably use PvE servers every now and then if I want to fight skull forts without the annoyance of other ships showing up every 2 min.That's just it. It is a short term solution that only deals with releving the syptoms of the issues and not adressing the problem itself. Allowing for a PvP server by it's nature would also be making a PvE server spliting the game and giving up on the PvEvP idea. In the TC The Devision there was a single player mode/area and the PvPvE mode area. This game is entirely PvEvP based, Could it benifit from a sepreat area? The answer is clearly yes but the fact is that it is in direct conflict with the Core Concept and Design Philosphy of sepreating the playerbase. Now you can disagree with the Philospy as it was poor implement and failed at answering and dealing with basic player interaction issues, but i personally think this type of Philosphy is ultimately benificial as it seeks to tear down artifical walls and allow all types of players and playstyles to co-exist in a single playground. This is still a relitively new concept espically in the AAA market and has yet to be fully relized. It still remains to be proven how practical it is however i remain optimistic as this kind of gameplay shows promise and hasn't completly failed.
Don't get me wrong i would love for more PvP mode/options in this game like TDM or KoTH even CTF but i don't feel like need to have sperate s servers to do that. Instead ask yourself if there are other ways of accomplishing this.
We haven't given up on the PvPvE idea at all. The PvE server would be ideal for new players where confrontation 100% a choice on the players. A PvP server tries to curate confrontations in the context of the same voyage gameplay. There is little difference in how you'd approach the game, except now all loot in the game can be contested, before, after, during someone picking it up.
An easy addition to this is if you don't have the voyage they are working on when you kill them, you should be able to copy it off the map table. So killing someone while they are digging up a chest is still a way to take their chest.
This is a good idea but i fail to see why a seprate server is necceary to facilitate adding this function also in a PvEvP eviroment PvP isn't supposed to be optional just like PvE both elements exist simultanously. It's how you choose to deal with situations is a choice. Just like in a multiplayer area you can't opt out of players figthing you, In the same way in a single player or co-op campaign you can't opt out of being attack by the A.I. The problem is that the PvE and PvP in this game are not structured to co'exist cause they both focus on 2 different goals with different styles of play instead of sharing a common Goal and META gamplay. New player need to learn how to defend themselves and learn the tactics but can only do so by etheir the game dirictly teaching them or being exposed to high level and skilled players. Sepreate server will deprive them of this.
Its just a separate mode. Servers seem to be on demand and there is no reason options shouldn't be given to slightly different play styles. So long as most of the PvPvE game stays intact we should be able to compromise.
So your not advocating for a sepreate instance but rather somthing akin to a quest/voyage within the PvEvP playspace? If so i would have no issue with this. If not can you elaborate on this a bit more.
Its a seperate game mode, or instance, because people opting out and taking up space are just as much part of the problem that plagues PvP now as it is finding people. This serves to try to make people easier to find and all loot contestable regardless if another player has finished the voyage or not.
Why do you think its important to keep in the same play space? I get that its important to keep the PvPvE aspect... if that is intact what is the harm in slightly different variations for different players..
@enf0rcer said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@SavageTwinky Do you have an issue with the amount of ships for a Hoarding objective. If so just how many you feel would be needed to make both a hoarding or bounty system work roughly? And Why? I think 6 is pleanty enough. Thats 6 different teams of up to 4 players in an arena thats just as much as any other objective based arena game. It's the same as gun of icorus which is 3 v 3 of 4 players each.
The arena is too big. None of this stuff solves the problems of people being hard to find. And not everyone is playing the same game so the people that don't care about bounties/hoarding and still see someone intervening in their "progress" as a problem or griefing. Its effectively the same thing as we have now.
Bounties = gank squads.
Hoarding = w*f is the point?@savagetwinky said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@enf0rcer said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@savagetwinky said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@enf0rcer said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@savagetwinky said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@enf0rcer said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@betsill said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@enf0rcer It's not giving up on the PvEvP idea just accepting that 1. not everyone is into that, and 2. the way it's implemented now needs alot of work.
Having a PvE server would be the easiest way to deal with the problem in the short term, but it's also just a good option to provide players. Not only would it give people who just want to sail in relative peace and PvE a much improved experience, but PvPers like myself would also benefit by making it so that only people who want to PvP are in the PvP servers. Heck even I would probably use PvE servers every now and then if I want to fight skull forts without the annoyance of other ships showing up every 2 min.That's just it. It is a short term solution that only deals with releving the syptoms of the issues and not adressing the problem itself. Allowing for a PvP server by it's nature would also be making a PvE server spliting the game and giving up on the PvEvP idea. In the TC The Devision there was a single player mode/area and the PvPvE mode area. This game is entirely PvEvP based, Could it benifit from a sepreat area? The answer is clearly yes but the fact is that it is in direct conflict with the Core Concept and Design Philosphy of sepreating the playerbase. Now you can disagree with the Philospy as it was poor implement and failed at answering and dealing with basic player interaction issues, but i personally think this type of Philosphy is ultimately benificial as it seeks to tear down artifical walls and allow all types of players and playstyles to co-exist in a single playground. This is still a relitively new concept espically in the AAA market and has yet to be fully relized. It still remains to be proven how practical it is however i remain optimistic as this kind of gameplay shows promise and hasn't completly failed.
Don't get me wrong i would love for more PvP mode/options in this game like TDM or KoTH even CTF but i don't feel like need to have sperate s servers to do that. Instead ask yourself if there are other ways of accomplishing this.
We haven't given up on the PvPvE idea at all. The PvE server would be ideal for new players where confrontation 100% a choice on the players. A PvP server tries to curate confrontations in the context of the same voyage gameplay. There is little difference in how you'd approach the game, except now all loot in the game can be contested, before, after, during someone picking it up.
An easy addition to this is if you don't have the voyage they are working on when you kill them, you should be able to copy it off the map table. So killing someone while they are digging up a chest is still a way to take their chest.
This is a good idea but i fail to see why a seprate server is necceary to facilitate adding this function also in a PvEvP eviroment PvP isn't supposed to be optional just like PvE both elements exist simultanously. It's how you choose to deal with situations is a choice. Just like in a multiplayer area you can't opt out of players figthing you, In the same way in a single player or co-op campaign you can't opt out of being attack by the A.I. The problem is that the PvE and PvP in this game are not structured to co'exist cause they both focus on 2 different goals with different styles of play instead of sharing a common Goal and META gamplay. New player need to learn how to defend themselves and learn the tactics but can only do so by etheir the game dirictly teaching them or being exposed to high level and skilled players. Sepreate server will deprive them of this.
Its just a separate mode. Servers seem to be on demand and there is no reason options shouldn't be given to slightly different play styles. So long as most of the PvPvE game stays intact we should be able to compromise.
So your not advocating for a sepreate instance but rather somthing akin to a quest/voyage within the PvEvP playspace? If so i would have no issue with this. If not can you elaborate on this a bit more.
Its a seperate game mode, or instance, because people opting out and taking up space are just as much part of the problem that plagues PvP now as it is finding people. This serves to try to make people easier to find and all loot contestable regardless if another player has finished digging it up or not.
Why do you think its important to keep in the same play space? I get that its important to keep the PvPvE aspect... if that is intact what is the harm in slightly different variations for different players..
It wouldn't so much harm the game, it just contridics the foundamental concept of the game which is a single playspace to share different styles. I'm not saying your idea is bad just not in accordance with the peramiters the devs layed out. This however may change just like the no AI ship rule. Untill then i'm just sticking to what the dev said they would allow. I myself hope they change their stance on a bounty like system and also a vote to kick option.
@enf0rcer said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@savagetwinky said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@enf0rcer said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@savagetwinky said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@enf0rcer said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@savagetwinky said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@enf0rcer said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@betsill said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@enf0rcer It's not giving up on the PvEvP idea just accepting that 1. not everyone is into that, and 2. the way it's implemented now needs alot of work.
Having a PvE server would be the easiest way to deal with the problem in the short term, but it's also just a good option to provide players. Not only would it give people who just want to sail in relative peace and PvE a much improved experience, but PvPers like myself would also benefit by making it so that only people who want to PvP are in the PvP servers. Heck even I would probably use PvE servers every now and then if I want to fight skull forts without the annoyance of other ships showing up every 2 min.That's just it. It is a short term solution that only deals with releving the syptoms of the issues and not adressing the problem itself. Allowing for a PvP server by it's nature would also be making a PvE server spliting the game and giving up on the PvEvP idea. In the TC The Devision there was a single player mode/area and the PvPvE mode area. This game is entirely PvEvP based, Could it benifit from a sepreat area? The answer is clearly yes but the fact is that it is in direct conflict with the Core Concept and Design Philosphy of sepreating the playerbase. Now you can disagree with the Philospy as it was poor implement and failed at answering and dealing with basic player interaction issues, but i personally think this type of Philosphy is ultimately benificial as it seeks to tear down artifical walls and allow all types of players and playstyles to co-exist in a single playground. This is still a relitively new concept espically in the AAA market and has yet to be fully relized. It still remains to be proven how practical it is however i remain optimistic as this kind of gameplay shows promise and hasn't completly failed.
Don't get me wrong i would love for more PvP mode/options in this game like TDM or KoTH even CTF but i don't feel like need to have sperate s servers to do that. Instead ask yourself if there are other ways of accomplishing this.
We haven't given up on the PvPvE idea at all. The PvE server would be ideal for new players where confrontation 100% a choice on the players. A PvP server tries to curate confrontations in the context of the same voyage gameplay. There is little difference in how you'd approach the game, except now all loot in the game can be contested, before, after, during someone picking it up.
An easy addition to this is if you don't have the voyage they are working on when you kill them, you should be able to copy it off the map table. So killing someone while they are digging up a chest is still a way to take their chest.
This is a good idea but i fail to see why a seprate server is necceary to facilitate adding this function also in a PvEvP eviroment PvP isn't supposed to be optional just like PvE both elements exist simultanously. It's how you choose to deal with situations is a choice. Just like in a multiplayer area you can't opt out of players figthing you, In the same way in a single player or co-op campaign you can't opt out of being attack by the A.I. The problem is that the PvE and PvP in this game are not structured to co'exist cause they both focus on 2 different goals with different styles of play instead of sharing a common Goal and META gamplay. New player need to learn how to defend themselves and learn the tactics but can only do so by etheir the game dirictly teaching them or being exposed to high level and skilled players. Sepreate server will deprive them of this.
Its just a separate mode. Servers seem to be on demand and there is no reason options shouldn't be given to slightly different play styles. So long as most of the PvPvE game stays intact we should be able to compromise.
So your not advocating for a sepreate instance but rather somthing akin to a quest/voyage within the PvEvP playspace? If so i would have no issue with this. If not can you elaborate on this a bit more.
Its a seperate game mode, or instance, because people opting out and taking up space are just as much part of the problem that plagues PvP now as it is finding people. This serves to try to make people easier to find and all loot contestable regardless if another player has finished digging it up or not.
Why do you think its important to keep in the same play space? I get that its important to keep the PvPvE aspect... if that is intact what is the harm in slightly different variations for different players..
It wouldn't so much harm the game, it just contridics the foundamental concept of the game which is a single playspace to share different styles. I'm not saying your idea is bad just not in accordance with the peramiters the devs layed out. This however may change just like the no AI ship rule. Untill then i'm just sticking to what the dev said they would allow. I myself hope they change their stance on a bounty like system and also a vote to kick option.
Except it doesn't contradict it, its a slight reinterpretation that intends to make it so all loot on the map can be acquired by any player. All its doing is attempting to get players around each other and in each others way depending on what your going for.
I do believe there are some aspects that can't change... then there are some aspects that have to change and be optional. Just like they were never going to introduce AI ships... some things they originally planned to do aren't working.
@savagetwinky said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@enf0rcer said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@SavageTwinky Do you have an issue with the amount of ships for a Hoarding objective. If so just how many you feel would be needed to make both a hoarding or bounty system work roughly? And Why? I think 6 is pleanty enough. Thats 6 different teams of up to 4 players in an arena thats just as much as any other objective based arena game. It's the same as gun of icorus which is 3 v 3 of 4 players each.
The arena is too big. None of this stuff solves the problems of people being hard to find.
Your right but this can easily be solved, they already added things like the reapers mark. This is just going a step further. Agian is your problem the amount of ships or the size of the map?
And not everyone is playing the same game so the people that don't care about bounties/hoarding and still see someone intervening in their "progress" as a problem or griefing. Its effectively the same thing as we have now.
This is the problem where trying to solve. I can undrstand how bounties could be viewed as grifing some elses progress and thats why i suggested make it so only PL can be made a target as "Most" not all PL don't care about loot.
Bounties = gank squads.
How can you complian about gank squads exist in every PvP game at least you can avoid them much more easily in this game. Not that easy to gank in this game by it nature. So i'm not to concerned besides the bounty should be the one thats asking to to ganked. I want players to come and fight me. Just limit this to PL's and done.
Hoarding = w*f is the point?
I feel as though I would need to make another tread about this. So i will soon and it will be a long detailed post as I with the help of other community members have been working on fleshing out this idea. But the point in as simple terms is to Give the Loot more utilty and like you make it the object to fight over. By given player the reason and structure to fight ships and defend ships and build your reputation in game for others to see and experiance. In Short. It to promote Theift of loot in this so called pirate game called Sea of THEIVES.
@savagetwinky said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@enf0rcer said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@savagetwinky said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@enf0rcer said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@savagetwinky said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@enf0rcer said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@savagetwinky said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@enf0rcer said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@betsill said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@enf0rcer It's not giving up on the PvEvP idea just accepting that 1. not everyone is into that, and 2. the way it's implemented now needs alot of work.
Having a PvE server would be the easiest way to deal with the problem in the short term, but it's also just a good option to provide players. Not only would it give people who just want to sail in relative peace and PvE a much improved experience, but PvPers like myself would also benefit by making it so that only people who want to PvP are in the PvP servers. Heck even I would probably use PvE servers every now and then if I want to fight skull forts without the annoyance of other ships showing up every 2 min.That's just it. It is a short term solution that only deals with releving the syptoms of the issues and not adressing the problem itself. Allowing for a PvP server by it's nature would also be making a PvE server spliting the game and giving up on the PvEvP idea. In the TC The Devision there was a single player mode/area and the PvPvE mode area. This game is entirely PvEvP based, Could it benifit from a sepreat area? The answer is clearly yes but the fact is that it is in direct conflict with the Core Concept and Design Philosphy of sepreating the playerbase. Now you can disagree with the Philospy as it was poor implement and failed at answering and dealing with basic player interaction issues, but i personally think this type of Philosphy is ultimately benificial as it seeks to tear down artifical walls and allow all types of players and playstyles to co-exist in a single playground. This is still a relitively new concept espically in the AAA market and has yet to be fully relized. It still remains to be proven how practical it is however i remain optimistic as this kind of gameplay shows promise and hasn't completly failed.
Don't get me wrong i would love for more PvP mode/options in this game like TDM or KoTH even CTF but i don't feel like need to have sperate s servers to do that. Instead ask yourself if there are other ways of accomplishing this.
We haven't given up on the PvPvE idea at all. The PvE server would be ideal for new players where confrontation 100% a choice on the players. A PvP server tries to curate confrontations in the context of the same voyage gameplay. There is little difference in how you'd approach the game, except now all loot in the game can be contested, before, after, during someone picking it up.
An easy addition to this is if you don't have the voyage they are working on when you kill them, you should be able to copy it off the map table. So killing someone while they are digging up a chest is still a way to take their chest.
This is a good idea but i fail to see why a seprate server is necceary to facilitate adding this function also in a PvEvP eviroment PvP isn't supposed to be optional just like PvE both elements exist simultanously. It's how you choose to deal with situations is a choice. Just like in a multiplayer area you can't opt out of players figthing you, In the same way in a single player or co-op campaign you can't opt out of being attack by the A.I. The problem is that the PvE and PvP in this game are not structured to co'exist cause they both focus on 2 different goals with different styles of play instead of sharing a common Goal and META gamplay. New player need to learn how to defend themselves and learn the tactics but can only do so by etheir the game dirictly teaching them or being exposed to high level and skilled players. Sepreate server will deprive them of this.
Its just a separate mode. Servers seem to be on demand and there is no reason options shouldn't be given to slightly different play styles. So long as most of the PvPvE game stays intact we should be able to compromise.
So your not advocating for a sepreate instance but rather somthing akin to a quest/voyage within the PvEvP playspace? If so i would have no issue with this. If not can you elaborate on this a bit more.
Its a seperate game mode, or instance, because people opting out and taking up space are just as much part of the problem that plagues PvP now as it is finding people. This serves to try to make people easier to find and all loot contestable regardless if another player has finished digging it up or not.
Why do you think its important to keep in the same play space? I get that its important to keep the PvPvE aspect... if that is intact what is the harm in slightly different variations for different players..
It wouldn't so much harm the game, it just contridics the foundamental concept of the game which is a single playspace to share different styles. I'm not saying your idea is bad just not in accordance with the peramiters the devs layed out. This however may change just like the no AI ship rule. Untill then i'm just sticking to what the dev said they would allow. I myself hope they change their stance on a bounty like system and also a vote to kick option.
Except it doesn't contradict it, its a slight reinterpretation that intends to make it so all loot on the map can be acquired by any player. All its doing is attempting to get players around each other and in each others way depending on what your going for.
I do believe there are some aspects that can't change... then there are some aspects that have to change and be optional. Just like they were never going to introduce AI ships... some things they originally planned to do aren't working.
The dev left no room for reinterpretation as they have clearly stated they wanted no seperation of the playerbase which includes sepreate servers and game modes just like they were clear that they wanted a casual game not a hardcore competive one which means no ranks and no leaderboards. Now do i argee with this not excatly but i respect their decision and untill they change their mind like they did with AI ships this idea is in contridiction. Also this is the only AAA title that is solely PvEvP.
@enf0rcer said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@SavageTwinky Do you have an issue with the amount of ships for a Hoarding objective. If so just how many you feel would be needed to make both a hoarding or bounty system work roughly? And Why? I think 6 is pleanty enough. Thats 6 different teams of up to 4 players in an arena thats just as much as any other objective based arena game. It's the same as gun of icorus which is 3 v 3 of 4 players each.
Your right but this can easily be solved, they already added things like the reapers mark. This is just going a step further. Agian is your problem the amount of ships or the size of the map?Player density is 1 problem.. player behavior is a second problem.
This is the problem where trying to solve. I can undrstand how bounties could be viewed as grifing some elses progress and thats why i suggested make it so only PL can be made a target as "Most" not all PL don't care about loot.
How can you complian about gank squads exist in every PvP game at least you can avoid them much more easily in this game. Not that easy to gank in this game by it nature. So i'm not to concerned besides the bounty should be the one thats asking to to ganked. I want players to come and fight me. Just limit this to PL's and done.
Games that allow gank squads allow griefing. Good PvP games can set up players to fight over a shared goal and make it natural and fun. And when I say gank squad, us PvPers are the gank squad... we are already going from ship to ship murdering everyone. So sure, they can make it beneficial for us to do so... to invite more PvP.. However, no one is going to come and fight you for a bounty. The players that aren't interested in fighting now no amount of reward will be incentive enough to change that.
I feel as though I would need to make another tread about this. So i will soon and it will be a long detailed post as I with the help of other community members have been working on fleshing out this idea. But the point in as simple terms is to Give the Loot more utilty and like you make it the object to fight over. By given player the reason and structure to fight ships and defend ships and build your reputation in game for others to see and experiance. In Short. It to promote Theift of loot in this so called pirate game called Sea of THEIVES.
You don't need to... utility has utility. Games that have ulility in the sandbox and ability to fight over them have value in fighting for utility. Value is meaningless for players like me... regardless of "rank" or reputation. This will give the people that currently run more reason to run. It does not at all, in any way incentivise people to fight. They don't want to fight over the resources and utility they have now, they don't want to fight for the treasure we effectively brought them before steam rolling over them. Someone even offered us an athenas while we were stealing all of their planks... we didn't even believe them until their ship was sinking and we found it.
By suggesting this over and over you don't seem to have the same understanding of the problems facing the PvPers. The problem with PvP is the mentality of players. Its completely framed in a sandbox where everyone's voyage is there own... like a normal MMO, where you do a quest and you progress. Except now you just let other players steal effort. Which is why i see the fundamental problem with PvP being built on a personal experience first before it opens up for PvP. Not to mention as a PvPer it means people have to dig up their loot before I can take it.
The major point of the change seeks to fix that. If every bit of loot can be taken by everyone then, then you have to race to take it before someone else does.. and they have to fight you for it if you get there first... and if you miss getting their first you have to fight for it, or move on to another target. Voyages are part of the sandbox this way. Every other aspect of the suggestion tries to trim the fat from the experience.
@enf0rcer said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@savagetwinky said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@enf0rcer said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@savagetwinky said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@enf0rcer said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@savagetwinky said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@enf0rcer said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@savagetwinky said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@enf0rcer said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@betsill said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@enf0rcer It's not giving up on the PvEvP idea just accepting that 1. not everyone is into that, and 2. the way it's implemented now needs alot of work.
Having a PvE server would be the easiest way to deal with the problem in the short term, but it's also just a good option to provide players. Not only would it give people who just want to sail in relative peace and PvE a much improved experience, but PvPers like myself would also benefit by making it so that only people who want to PvP are in the PvP servers. Heck even I would probably use PvE servers every now and then if I want to fight skull forts without the annoyance of other ships showing up every 2 min.That's just it. It is a short term solution that only deals with releving the syptoms of the issues and not adressing the problem itself. Allowing for a PvP server by it's nature would also be making a PvE server spliting the game and giving up on the PvEvP idea. In the TC The Devision there was a single player mode/area and the PvPvE mode area. This game is entirely PvEvP based, Could it benifit from a sepreat area? The answer is clearly yes but the fact is that it is in direct conflict with the Core Concept and Design Philosphy of sepreating the playerbase. Now you can disagree with the Philospy as it was poor implement and failed at answering and dealing with basic player interaction issues, but i personally think this type of Philosphy is ultimately benificial as it seeks to tear down artifical walls and allow all types of players and playstyles to co-exist in a single playground. This is still a relitively new concept espically in the AAA market and has yet to be fully relized. It still remains to be proven how practical it is however i remain optimistic as this kind of gameplay shows promise and hasn't completly failed.
Don't get me wrong i would love for more PvP mode/options in this game like TDM or KoTH even CTF but i don't feel like need to have sperate s servers to do that. Instead ask yourself if there are other ways of accomplishing this.
We haven't given up on the PvPvE idea at all. The PvE server would be ideal for new players where confrontation 100% a choice on the players. A PvP server tries to curate confrontations in the context of the same voyage gameplay. There is little difference in how you'd approach the game, except now all loot in the game can be contested, before, after, during someone picking it up.
An easy addition to this is if you don't have the voyage they are working on when you kill them, you should be able to copy it off the map table. So killing someone while they are digging up a chest is still a way to take their chest.
This is a good idea but i fail to see why a seprate server is necceary to facilitate adding this function also in a PvEvP eviroment PvP isn't supposed to be optional just like PvE both elements exist simultanously. It's how you choose to deal with situations is a choice. Just like in a multiplayer area you can't opt out of players figthing you, In the same way in a single player or co-op campaign you can't opt out of being attack by the A.I. The problem is that the PvE and PvP in this game are not structured to co'exist cause they both focus on 2 different goals with different styles of play instead of sharing a common Goal and META gamplay. New player need to learn how to defend themselves and learn the tactics but can only do so by etheir the game dirictly teaching them or being exposed to high level and skilled players. Sepreate server will deprive them of this.
Its just a separate mode. Servers seem to be on demand and there is no reason options shouldn't be given to slightly different play styles. So long as most of the PvPvE game stays intact we should be able to compromise.
So your not advocating for a sepreate instance but rather somthing akin to a quest/voyage within the PvEvP playspace? If so i would have no issue with this. If not can you elaborate on this a bit more.
Its a seperate game mode, or instance, because people opting out and taking up space are just as much part of the problem that plagues PvP now as it is finding people. This serves to try to make people easier to find and all loot contestable regardless if another player has finished digging it up or not.
Why do you think its important to keep in the same play space? I get that its important to keep the PvPvE aspect... if that is intact what is the harm in slightly different variations for different players..
It wouldn't so much harm the game, it just contridics the foundamental concept of the game which is a single playspace to share different styles. I'm not saying your idea is bad just not in accordance with the peramiters the devs layed out. This however may change just like the no AI ship rule. Untill then i'm just sticking to what the dev said they would allow. I myself hope they change their stance on a bounty like system and also a vote to kick option.
Except it doesn't contradict it, its a slight reinterpretation that intends to make it so all loot on the map can be acquired by any player. All its doing is attempting to get players around each other and in each others way depending on what your going for.
I do believe there are some aspects that can't change... then there are some aspects that have to change and be optional. Just like they were never going to introduce AI ships... some things they originally planned to do aren't working.
The dev left no room for reinterpretation as they have clearly stated they wanted no seperation of the playerbase which includes sepreate servers and game modes just like they were clear that they wanted a casual game not a hardcore competive one which means no ranks and no leaderboards. Now do i argee with this not excatly but i respect their decision and untill they change their mind like they did with AI ships this idea is in contridiction. Also this is the only AAA title that is solely PvEvP.
There are already separate servers. So first you have no idea what your talking about... Not to mention the things they were clear about I'm not really violating except for having a separate mode... but since the mode doesn't violate anything else really.. and we know there is room for change... I think a separate PvP mode that is slimmer and tighter experience about fighting over loot and building it into voyaging is the best compromise. Rare largely got a player base it probably wasn't expecting and they need to accommodate hardcore players and casuals, and try to build that on a similar experience.
Also games aren't hardcore. Hardcore is a player type based on their behavior. And if you gathered a hardcore playerbase they will run out casuals eventually.
@enf0rcer I agree. I think the alliance system hurts PvP because as far as efficiency goes, there's no reason to not just ally with everyone. Way more gold per hour.
I keep hearing about how alliances is so terrible. But I have only been able to get in an alliance with anything more than one other ship twice since the skelly ships ended. And even the two ship alliances we have had don't add up to more than what I could count with my fingers. I am wondering where are all these great alliances everyone keeps bemoaning.
As for the PvP server idea in the OP, while some of the ideas make sense for a PvP server, I just don't see it happening. I do however think there are things that can be done to help PvP in the game currently.
- I like your idea of being able to summon forts. Forts have always been a great way to find solid PvP. I read somewhere that Rare is looking at timing out Skelly ships as long as no one is working on them so that forts would pop up more frequently. This is a great idea. I also see more people going after skelly ships recently as the rewards were corrected back to the original amount. While I personally still don't believe the rewards justifies the amount of time it takes to stock your ship to do the skelly ships, Rare is heading in the right direction by increasing the rewards to try and make them more attractive.
This is just one thing that could be done, make forts happen more frequently. There are many other things that could help with this as well. And rather than concentrating efforts on separating player base between server types, we should try and flesh out ideas to make the current system better.
@nofears-fun said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
I keep hearing about how alliances is so terrible. But I have only been able to get in an alliance with anything more than one other ship twice since the skelly ships ended. And even the two ship alliances we have had don't add up to more than what I could count with my fingers. I am wondering where are all these great alliances everyone keeps bemoaning.
As for the PvP server idea in the OP, while some of the ideas make sense for a PvP server, I just don't see it happening. I do however think there are things that can be done to help PvP in the game currently.
- I like your idea of being able to summon forts. Forts have always been a great way to find solid PvP. I read somewhere that Rare is looking at timing out Skelly ships as long as no one is working on them so that forts would pop up more frequently. This is a great idea. I also see more people going after skelly ships recently as the rewards were corrected back to the original amount. While I personally still don't believe the rewards justifies the amount of time it takes to stock your ship to do the skelly ships, Rare is heading in the right direction by increasing the rewards to try and make them more attractive.
This is just one thing that could be done, make forts happen more frequently. There are many other things that could help with this as well. And rather than concentrating efforts on separating player base between server types, we should try and flesh out ideas to make the current system better.
PvP around skelly forts has become hit or miss, as is finding people that know what they are doing. In fact both of these are sliding into the miss category more and more.
@savagetwinky said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@trickrtreat01 said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@savagetwinky You lost me at Limit Ship Types. The best part of the game is sinking a Galleon with a Sloop. No one is forced to play a Sloop. Keeping Sloops away from Galleons is the worst idea.
As for Alliances, hated them at first, now i don't care. It's just one more way to infiltrate and backstab and creates tons of scenarios and situations and options.
So continue playing the normal mode. The entire point of this is to set up more even fights, more often. Your not going to be fighting trash gal crews if its ranked.
As a avid PvP galleon player, sloops are a cancer. You just keep stomping on them and they keep coming back.
I honestly can't even tell what you are complaining about. You want the fights to be evenly matched based on a ranking and ship type ? That would be pretty boring and predictable. I like the fact that you have no idea what another ship is capable of when you attack. Are they skilled ? are they beginners ?
There aren't even enough people playing this game any more to separate everyone out.
@savagetwinky I can honestly say that myself and my crew do not go out looking for PvP, but it seems to find us every time we play. Sometimes the quality of the other team is not so great, and other times they seem other worldly with what they can do.
As for forts specifically, I have only a hand full of times over the past 2-3 months had a fort that we did where we didn't see heavy PvP. In most cases it seemed like the entire server came after us. But I will admit, we have been focused in DR the past 3 weeks and have skipped all but one or two forts since DR came out. Though I suspect we will return to the forts soon.
@nofears-fun said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@savagetwinky I can honestly say that myself and my crew do not go out looking for PvP, but it seems to find us every time we play. Sometimes the quality of the other team is not so great, and other times they seem other worldly with what they can do.
As for forts specifically, I have only a hand full of times over the past 2-3 months had a fort that we did where we didn't see heavy PvP. In most cases it seemed like the entire server came after us. But I will admit, we have been focused in DR the past 3 weeks and have skipped all but one or two forts since DR came out. Though I suspect we will return to the forts soon.
We explicitly look for PvP... as I've mentioned multiple times if your looking for it, its mostly misses. Unless your sinking lots of time in the game, eventually you will find it. The major problem is eventually has been consistently getting longer and longer.
@trickrtreat01 said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@savagetwinky said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@trickrtreat01 said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@savagetwinky You lost me at Limit Ship Types. The best part of the game is sinking a Galleon with a Sloop. No one is forced to play a Sloop. Keeping Sloops away from Galleons is the worst idea.
As for Alliances, hated them at first, now i don't care. It's just one more way to infiltrate and backstab and creates tons of scenarios and situations and options.
So continue playing the normal mode. The entire point of this is to set up more even fights, more often. Your not going to be fighting trash gal crews if its ranked.
As a avid PvP galleon player, sloops are a cancer. You just keep stomping on them and they keep coming back.
I honestly can't even tell what you are complaining about. You want the fights to be evenly matched based on a ranking and ship type ? That would be pretty boring and predictable. I like the fact that you have no idea what another ship is capable of when you attack. Are they skilled ? are they beginners ?
There aren't even enough people playing this game any more to separate everyone out.
There are 3 ship types and we know what the ship types are capable off. Sloops are a cancer because at best they can only annoy an equal galleon crew but eventually they screw up and can be squashed.
Bad players are not fun to play against. True, its less predictable but not in a good way. I want to be faced with equal skill because this game has plenty of room for dynamic fights with player ingenuity fueling the unpredictability. I don't think there is any value in will I roll over them or will they put up a fight... one is always a let down and deflating experience. On the other end of that experience, many many many many people have complained because they cannot fight back either because they don't have enough manpower or skill level to even come close to putting up a fight.
So your kind of unpredictable fights is explicitly bad. On both ends of the spectrum. Fights are only fun if they are some what equal.
@savagetwinky said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@enf0rcer said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@SavageTwinky Do you have an issue with the amount of ships for a Hoarding objective. If so just how many you feel would be needed to make both a hoarding or bounty system work roughly? And Why? I think 6 is pleanty enough. Thats 6 different teams of up to 4 players in an arena thats just as much as any other objective based arena game. It's the same as gun of icorus which is 3 v 3 of 4 players each.
Your right but this can easily be solved, they already added things like the reapers mark. This is just going a step further. Agian is your problem the amount of ships or the size of the map?Player density is 1 problem.. player behavior is a second problem.
Player density can easily be solved but the issue is more about the inabilty to find ship or know if any are even on a server which agian is easily fixed.
Play behavour however is a problem which is caused by the way the game presents itself. It's poor game mechnics that cause this. Adding clear objectives and solid mechnics would solve this issue. This is the very reasom were discussing this.
This is the problem where trying to solve. I can undrstand how bounties could be viewed as grifing some elses progress and thats why i suggested make it so only PL can be made a target as "Most" not all PL don't care about loot.
How can you complian about gank squads exist in every PvP game at least you can avoid them much more easily in this game. Not that easy to gank in this game by it nature. So i'm not to concerned besides the bounty should be the one thats asking to to ganked. I want players to come and fight me. Just limit this to PL's and done.
Games that allow gank squads allow griefing. Good PvP games can set up players to fight over a shared goal and make it natural and fun. And when I say gank squad, us PvPers are the gank squad... we are already going from ship to ship murdering everyone. So sure, they can make it beneficial for us to do so... to invite more PvP.. However, no one is going to come and fight you for a bounty. The players that aren't interested in fighting now no amount of reward will be incentive enough to change that.
We have gank squads now like you said not having a structure IS what cause this. There are 4 main reason why Player don't PvP that need to be adressed.
- Players feel like the PvP is unfair or unbalanced. See Pc vs Xbox for that.
- Players feel like combat mechnics are underdeloped
- PvP has no point as it takes time to gather resourses to fight and fo no reward. Skelly ship are a good example of this.
- Players simply suck at PvP mostly becasue they don't have a way to pratice. See treads on dueling.
Your right we need more then just a reward to get players to Fight. We need an entire rework and structure to PvP landscape itself. Loot Hoarding Objective is just a piece of the puzzle the frame work to which would encaplsilate all other elements and mechanics.
I feel as though I would need to make another tread about this. So i will soon and it will be a long detailed post as I with the help of other community members have been working on fleshing out this idea. But the point in as simple terms is to Give the Loot more utilty and like you make it the object to fight over. By given player the reason and structure to fight ships and defend ships and build your reputation in game for others to see and experiance. In Short. It to promote Theift of loot in this so called pirate game called Sea of THEIVES.
You don't need to... utility has utility. Games that have ulility in the sandbox and ability to fight over them have value in fighting for utility. Value is meaningless for players like me... regardless of "rank" or reputation. This will give the people that currently run more reason to run. It does not at all, in any way incentivise people to fight. They don't want to fight over the resources and utility they have now, they don't want to fight for the treasure we effectively brought them before steam rolling over them. Someone even offered us an athenas while we were stealing all of their planks... we didn't even believe them until their ship was sinking and we found it.
The reason why they don't fight over it cause they persive no value in fighting for it. The resouses and utility loot like GB don't need to be fought over to get them. People need a reason to fight both to defend loot and steal loot. There is no reason to still loot and it's best to not have loot to defend so player just turn in there loot. Players that play to grind do so for rep and rewards while other play to goof off or mess with others and finally there are those that play for the challange a thrill of the hunt. So while Rep and Rewards are Meaningless to You, that does not mean there meaningless to everyone. To get players to fight you have to understand what they would be willing to fight for and give them that along with the right tools to get it. It would serve you to get more players willing to PvP.
By suggesting this over and over you don't seem to have the same understanding of the problems facing the PvPers. The problem with PvP is the mentality of players. Its completely framed in a sandbox where everyone's voyage is there own... like a normal MMO, where you do a quest and you progress. Except now you just let other players steal effort. Which is why i see the fundamental problem with PvP being built on a personal experience first before it opens up for PvP. Not to mention as a PvPer it means people have to dig up their loot before I can take it.
I understand the issue very well and have participated in many discussion over this topic from very early on. I saw all these issue that plagued this game and expressed my concerns. Now where here, alot of the issue was many players were lead to belive this was an MMO or MMO Lite game by the way in which it was presented. I even made a post to adress this as this game is in no way an MMO. Also player that hear MMO think RPG which this game is not etheir. This game was intended to have player steal from eachother but the issue that first concern of the game was how do you make the act of collecting loot fun and engaging for others to steal. The route they took to solve this didn't pan out well as now loot has become meaningless to steal cause it's far more difficult to steal then to collect.
The major point of the change seeks to fix that. If every bit of loot can be taken by everyone then, then you have to race to take it before someone else does.. and they have to fight you for it if you get there first... and if you miss getting their first you have to fight for it, or move on to another target. Voyages are part of the sandbox this way. Every other aspect of the suggestion tries to trim the fat from the experience.
I'm fine with you wanting to make the loot a shared objective to all crews, i quite like the idea and would go great with a loot hoarding objective on top of that. So players can fight over the same pile of loot. I totally agree with you making the loot somthing to fight over. What i don't agree with is having to make an entirly sepreate mode or server to do it.
@xcalypt0x said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@enf0rcer I agree. I think the alliance system hurts PvP because as far as efficiency goes, there's no reason to not just ally with everyone. Way more gold per hour.
Yeah the alliance system was poorly implemented but a few tweaks could easily solve these issues. Just like many other parts of this game. Sadly Rare seem to feel cofident that everthing is working as intended i'm not sure why.
@enf0rcer said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@savagetwinky said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@enf0rcer said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@SavageTwinky Do you have an issue with the amount of ships for a Hoarding objective. If so just how many you feel would be needed to make both a hoarding or bounty system work roughly? And Why? I think 6 is pleanty enough. Thats 6 different teams of up to 4 players in an arena thats just as much as any other objective based arena game. It's the same as gun of icorus which is 3 v 3 of 4 players each.
Your right but this can easily be solved, they already added things like the reapers mark. This is just going a step further. Agian is your problem the amount of ships or the size of the map?Player density is 1 problem.. player behavior is a second problem.
Player density can easily be solved but the issue is more about the inabilty to find ship or know if any are even on a server which agian is easily fixed.
Sure but its only a small part of the problem. Thats why I left literally one line to the explaination that players should just be easy to run into.
Play behavour however is a problem which is caused by the way the game presents itself. It's poor game mechnics that cause this. Adding clear objectives and solid mechnics would solve this issue. This is the very reasom were discussing this.
We have gank squads now like you said not having a structure IS what cause this. There are 4 main reason why Player don't PvP that need to be adressed.
Sure because that is what PvP basically is. Sail around and gank people. Loot hoarding is the same type of gameplay... sail around and gank people... bounties again same way to play... sail around and gank people.
- Players feel like the PvP is unfair or unbalanced. See Pc vs Xbox for that.
And ship types/skill levels.
- Players feel like combat mechnics are underdeloped
The ones that want progression. Not all players feel this way. And a lot of people dislike it in the PvE because is simple and your fighting tanky enemies or bombarding them with cannons. I don't see or hear people complaining about it as much when given ship to ship combat.
- PvP has no point as it takes time to gather resourses to fight and fo no reward. Skelly ship are a good example of this.
PvP doesn't need a point. Good PvP is the point of PvP. Another misunderstanding of what a general PvP player is looking for.
- Players simply suck at PvP mostly becasue they don't have a way to pratice. See treads on dueling.
You can practice PvP by doing PvP... it has nothing to do with it not being available because people turn around and complain any way. The other major issue here is engaging in lopsided fights because of skill levels.
Your right we need more then just a reward to get players to Fight. We need an entire rework and structure to PvP landscape itself. Loot Hoarding Objective is just a piece of the puzzle the frame work to which would encaplsilate all other elements and mechanics.
The reason why they don't fight over it cause they persive no value in fighting for it. The resouses and utility loot like GB don't need to be fought over to get them. People need a reason to fight both to defend loot and steal loot. There is no reason to still loot and it's best to not have loot to defend so player just turn in there loot. Players that play to grind do so for rep and rewards while other play to goof off or mess with others and finally there are those that play for the challange a thrill of the hunt. So while Rep and Rewards are Meaningless to You, that does not mean there meaningless to everyone. To get players to fight you have to understand what they would be willing to fight for and give them that along with the right tools to get it. It would serve you to get more players willing to PvP.They don't fight because they don't want to fight. You completely don't understand the player base we are dealing with. They throw away value and complain about wasting their time on a regular basis.
The perception on PvP and PvE has nothing to do with the value of items on the ship. Your hoarding mechanic seeks to solve the issue of value by making loot more valuable (either directly or indirectly). Even though there is already similar utility value in resources. If the value of s**t on their ship was important to them, the combination of loot + utility should already be working. Its not.
Value isn't the problem. Engaging structure and moment to moment gameplay is, and simply designing a way for players to fight over 1 piece of loot on a regular basis is all that is needed to reinvigorate PvP for players that want it... maybe some more lateral progression with utility items / ship customization will help.
I understand the issue very well and have participated in many discussion over this topic from very early on. I saw all these issue that plagued this game and expressed my concerns. Now where here, alot of the issue was many players were lead to belive this was an MMO or MMO Lite game by the way in which it was presented. I even made a post to adress this as this game is in no way an MMO. Also player that hear MMO think RPG which this game is not etheir. This game was intended to have player steal from eachother but the issue that first concern of the game was how do you make the act of collecting loot fun and engaging for others to steal. The route they took to solve this didn't pan out well as now loot has become meaningless to steal cause it's far more difficult to steal then to collect.
You clearly don't because you clearly don't understand motivations of PvP players and what they are looking for. Your still trying to solve this problem with value, when the value has already been proven to not be a solution.
Your jumping to a lot of solutions brought up by the community without thinking through player behavior. If players are regularly throwing away value, how does value solve the issue? If pvp players don't care about value and routinely risk it against players that throw it away and give up where does this hoarding mechanic fit?
I'm fine with you wanting to make the loot a shared objective to all crews, i quite like the idea and would go great with a loot hoarding objective on top of that. So players can fight over the same pile of loot. I totally agree with you making the loot somthing to fight over. What i don't agree with is having to make an entirly sepreate mode or server to do it.
Loot hoarding is pointless. This games PvP works when its about racing to get loot and turn it in. Not grinding to pile up loot and potentially loose it all to another player. See forts, as they are considered the best aspect of this game by PvPers. And all you do is race to the fort, fight some pirates, load up the loot potentially while fighting pirates, kill all the pirates in your way to the turn in. Hoarding fundamentally going to be a broken mechanic for this game. It explicitly reinforces the bad aspects of PvP that people already are complaining about. The excessive grind, losing hours of effort to another player...
It has to be a separate mode. You have to redesign the game for more engaging loop that strives to always involve other players in your jorney. The problem is a sizable amount of players bought the game and deserve to keep playing their sandbox. I'm not asking to redesign the sandbox... just a slimmer less grindy version with PvP as the focus so its a regular occurrence. Well not even PvP as the focus, just design it so players get in each other's way and let them decide how confrontational they want to be.
Its also overtly stupid to try to hold onto this "single mode" ideology. There is no benefit in that principle. Maybe sticking to PvPvE so there is some shared experience among the community... But there is wiggle room for different types of players and options will only enhance this game.
@savagetwinky This game generally requires you to sink a lot of time into the game. Those players doing PvE sink a ton of time into it. So why should seeking PvP be any different. There have been a few occasions where we go out and seek PvP. Not many but a few, and each time we generally can find it. This is not a game that is solely PvP, so therefor finding it takes some time investment.
As for reasons some players don't want to PvP, see above. Because you end up sinking a lot of time into gathering your loot, and now someone wants to come and take it from you. So you have a choice, stand and fight and hope for far too many variables that can count against you. Those variables are, larger crew size, xbox vs pc disparage, skill level, and so on. And while you as a PvP player may not really care about that loot, the person that just spent loads of time, sometimes even hours of game play, don't want to risk losing it. To be honest, the biggest reason I don't go out and seek PvP that often is because I don't want to ruin someone else's game play. But if they come to us, I only care about a few loot items enough to run now. Mostly we now stand our ground and fight back. We are generally more successful than not. But we admit we are not there for the PvP so if we lose, then we lose. But for others, if they lose, then they end up with what they feel is a lot of wasted time in game.
@nofears-fun said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@savagetwinky This game generally requires you to sink a lot of time into the game. Those players doing PvE sink a ton of time into it. So why should seeking PvP be any different. There have been a few occasions where we go out and seek PvP. Not many but a few, and each time we generally can find it. This is not a game that is solely PvP, so therefor finding it takes some time investment.
I can do 1 or 2 voyages in a timely manner, I can't reliably find PvP in the same time... they are not comparable time sinks. And they are basically incompatible with each other. Somtimes things fall magically into place, most of the time your either fort hopping, coming the server for gank victims, or doing voyages... lots of voyages.
As for reasons some players don't want to PvP, see above. Because you end up sinking a lot of time into gathering your loot, and now someone wants to come and take it from you. So you have a choice, stand and fight and hope for far too many variables that can count against you. Those variables are, larger crew size, xbox vs pc disparage, skill level, and so on. And while you as a PvP player may not really care about that loot, the person that just spent loads of time, sometimes even hours of game play, don't want to risk losing it. To be honest, the biggest reason I don't go out and seek PvP that often is because I don't want to ruin someone else's game play. But if they come to us, I only care about a few loot items enough to run now. Mostly we now stand our ground and fight back. We are generally more successful than not. But we admit we are not there for the PvP so if we lose, then we lose. But for others, if they lose, then they end up with what they feel is a lot of wasted time in game.
Right, the proposal is seeking to fix a lot of your gripe here, you won't have a large time sink gathering loot as it will be faster, you won't have to worry about losing a lot of effort, you will likely have a better balanced game so you don't have to worry about a horribly lopsided fight, and you won't have to try to seek it out, players will be presented as an obstacle and you can decide how confrontational you'll want to be. And you won't be ruining someone elses day because that loot is just as much yours as it is theirs... so you might engage in PvP more often before any one gets the bit of loot or just after. This actually opens up more potential of fighting on islands instead of direct ship to ship combat all the time.
PvP has to be an easy choice for players to invest time into it. So reducing the how far out of the way players are, reducing the grind or making it unnecessary, and making the fights feel more even are how to fix PvP in this game. This has to work for both defender and aggressor.
@savagetwinky said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@enf0rcer said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@savagetwinky said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@enf0rcer said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
@SavageTwinky Do you have an issue with the amount of ships for a Hoarding objective. If so just how many you feel would be needed to make both a hoarding or bounty system work roughly? And Why? I think 6 is pleanty enough. Thats 6 different teams of up to 4 players in an arena thats just as much as any other objective based arena game. It's the same as gun of icorus which is 3 v 3 of 4 players each.
Your right but this can easily be solved, they already added things like the reapers mark. This is just going a step further. Agian is your problem the amount of ships or the size of the map?Player density is 1 problem.. player behavior is a second problem.
Player density can easily be solved but the issue is more about the inabilty to find ship or know if any are even on a server which agian is easily fixed.
Sure but its only a small part of the problem. Thats why I left literally one line to the explaination that players should just be easy to run into.
Play behavour however is a problem which is caused by the way the game presents itself. It's poor game mechnics that cause this. Adding clear objectives and solid mechnics would solve this issue. This is the very reasom were discussing this.
We have gank squads now like you said not having a structure IS what cause this. There are 4 main reason why Player don't PvP that need to be adressed.
Sure because that is what PvP basically is. Sail around and gank people. Loot hoarding is the same type of gameplay... sail around and gank people... bounties again same way to play... sail around and gank people.
This where your wrong i want player to focus on stealing the loot not simply ganking players. Stealing loot should be the focus and should avoid direct ship combat.
- Players feel like the PvP is unfair or unbalanced. See Pc vs Xbox for that.
And ship types/skill levels.
This is a personal opion as i feel the ships are well balanced accept for the solo sloop. Skill has nothing to do with balance in a skill based game. Crew sizes you could consider unbalanced as your not limited to the ship so a team of 4 will always have an advantage over a team of 2 or solo. I don't see that as a big concern as tactics would play a large role.
- Players feel like combat mechnics are underdeloped
The ones that want progression. Not all players feel this way. And a lot of people dislike it in the PvE because is simple and your fighting tanky enemies or bombarding them with cannons. I don't see or hear people complaining about it as much when given ship to ship combat.
Agian this is for all players just the ones that don't like the current PvP structure it's not all about you or what you consider to be a PvP'er.
I agree PvE fighting is poor but that how the mojority of the player base learns to fight and experiances combat.- PvP has no point as it takes time to gather resourses to fight and fo no reward. Skelly ship are a good example of this.
PvP doesn't need a point. Good PvP is the point of PvP. Another misunderstanding of what a general PvP player is looking for.
Agian this is not about a PvPer but why a PvE'er or what i'll call potential PvPer is looking for. They need and objective to go after not a target to go kill. You want a target, a challanger, oppenent. Thats well and good but you need to see others point of view.
- Players simply suck at PvP mostly becasue they don't have a way to pratice. See treads on dueling.
You can practice PvP by doing PvP... it has nothing to do with it not being available because people turn around and complain any way. The other major issue here is engaging in lopsided fights because of skill levels.
Not everyone can participate in PvP as you normally have to go far out your way to. Which is the problem we discussed earilier. They need better trianing tools cause PvP is so random.
Your right we need more then just a reward to get players to Fight. We need an entire rework and structure to PvP landscape itself. Loot Hoarding Objective is just a piece of the puzzle the frame work to which would encaplsilate all other elements and mechanics.
The reason why they don't fight over it cause they persive no value in fighting for it. The resouses and utility loot like GB don't need to be fought over to get them. People need a reason to fight both to defend loot and steal loot. There is no reason to still loot and it's best to not have loot to defend so player just turn in there loot. Players that play to grind do so for rep and rewards while other play to goof off or mess with others and finally there are those that play for the challange a thrill of the hunt. So while Rep and Rewards are Meaningless to You, that does not mean there meaningless to everyone. To get players to fight you have to understand what they would be willing to fight for and give them that along with the right tools to get it. It would serve you to get more players willing to PvP.They don't fight because they don't want to fight. You completely don't understand the player base we are dealing with. They throw away value and complain about wasting their time on a regular basis.
Yes they don't want to fight, but do you understand why? Have you bothered to have a conversation with these players. Value means different things to different people it's arbitrary. Gold for new players is everything but it's worthless to guys like us. Some player don't even care about the grind or PvP and simply want to sail around and explore in piece. Have you even tryed other methods of play?
The perception on PvP and PvE has nothing to do with the value of items on the ship. Your hoarding mechanic seeks to solve the issue of value by making loot more valuable (either directly or indirectly). Even though there is already similar utility value in resources. If the value of s**t on their ship was important to them, the combination of loot + utility should already be working. Its not.
I seek to give loot meaning and purpose for all players outside of gold. Similar to what you propose. The reason why people donpt fight over resourses and utility items is cause there abundant and easy to aquire without the need to fight over it. Infact it's a waste of resources to fight over it. I how ever enjoy stealing resources from other ships.
Value isn't the problem. Engaging structure and moment to moment gameplay is, and simply designing a way for players to fight over 1 piece of loot on a regular basis is all that is needed to reinvigorate PvP for players that want it... maybe some more lateral progression with utility items / ship customization will help.
You relize and engaging structure is value. Like i said before i agree having dedicated loot to fight over i'm perfectly fine with this. Just like skull forts it's good PvP. I'm just agianst adding a sepreate mode.
I understand the issue very well and have participated in many discussion over this topic from very early on. I saw all these issue that plagued this game and expressed my concerns. Now where here, alot of the issue was many players were lead to belive this was an MMO or MMO Lite game by the way in which it was presented. I even made a post to adress this as this game is in no way an MMO. Also player that hear MMO think RPG which this game is not etheir. This game was intended to have player steal from eachother but the issue that first concern of the game was how do you make the act of collecting loot fun and engaging for others to steal. The route they took to solve this didn't pan out well as now loot has become meaningless to steal cause it's far more difficult to steal then to collect.
You clearly don't because you clearly don't understand motivations of PvP players and what they are looking for. Your still trying to solve this problem with value, when the value has already been proven to not be a solution.
You do relize you don't speak for the entire PvP comunity right? PvP'er all have different reasons why they PvP same thing goes for PvE. What you may particular like or want from PvP may not be what some else wants. So far this game provides little gameplay value to PvP so i don't understand what you mean by saying it's been tryed. Rare added almost nothing of substance to PvP.
Your jumping to a lot of solutions brought up by the community without thinking through player behavior. If players are regularly throwing away value, how does value solve the issue? If pvp players don't care about value and routinely risk it against players that throw it away and give up where does this hoarding mechanic fit?
Agian they maybe throwing things you percive has value. Do you understand their thought process? Did you bother to even ask? I'm not jumping to any solution but instead taking all the feedback neatly teing all the peices together to form a coherrent and work able solution within the peramiter dictated by Rare. You have a solid piece to that puzzle but it's not whole solution. Spliting the playerbase fall outside Rare parimiters.
I'm fine with you wanting to make the loot a shared objective to all crews, i quite like the idea and would go great with a loot hoarding objective on top of that. So players can fight over the same pile of loot. I totally agree with you making the loot somthing to fight over. What i don't agree with is having to make an entirly sepreate mode or server to do it.
Loot hoarding is pointless. This games PvP works when its about racing to get loot and turn it in. Not grinding to pile up loot and potentially loose it all to another player. See forts, as they are considered the best aspect of this game by PvPers. And all you do is race to the fort, fight some pirates, load up the loot potentially while fighting pirates, kill all the pirates in your way to the turn in. Hoarding fundamentally going to be a broken mechanic for this game. It explicitly reinforces the bad aspects of PvP that people already are complaining about. The excessive grind, losing hours of effort to another player...
Acutually it was Forts and Skelly ships that formed the idea of loot hoarding. Agian I'm sorry if you find it pointless but guess what you don't have to particpate in it. It's for those that already spend lots of time gathering loot so you can come in to steal it. Unless you just want to do nothing else but kill. Or maybe you like the racing aspect. Ethier way a loot hoarding objective can work along side you idea there not mutually exclusive. I just want to make all ship potential loot forts.
It has to be a separate mode. You have to redesign the game for more engaging loop that strives to always involve other players in your jorney. The problem is a sizable amount of players bought the game and deserve to keep playing their sandbox. I'm not asking to redesign the sandbox... just a slimmer less grindy version with PvP as the focus so its a regular occurrence. Well not even PvP as the focus, just design it so players get in each other's way and let them decide how confrontational they want to be.
Its also overtly stupid to try to hold onto this "single mode" ideology. There is no benefit in that principle. Maybe sticking to PvPvE so there is some shared experience among the community... But there is wiggle room for different types of players and options will only enhance this game.
Agian Rare decreed that this is what they want from their game and like it or not you should respect their disicion cause it's their game. I Rare changes their minds and says other wise then we can revisit this discussion. I hold no alligance to any ideology except that a creator has the sole right to dictate the nature of their creation.
@enf0rcer said in PvP "Mode" based around limiting loot, server wide objectives.:
This where your wrong i want player to focus on stealing the loot not simply ganking players. Stealing loot should be the focus and should avoid direct ship combat.
I'm not wrong, what you want and what your proposing isn't lining up.
- Players feel like the PvP is unfair or unbalanced. See Pc vs Xbox for that.
And ship types/skill levels.
This is a personal opion as i feel the ships are well balanced accept for the solo sloop. Skill has nothing to do with balance in a skill based game. Crew sizes you could consider unbalanced as your not limited to the ship so a team of 4 will always have an advantage over a team of 2 or solo. I don't see that as a big concern as tactics would play a large role.
Its not. 4 people + bigger ship is explicity stronger than 2 people + smaller ship. They are not good PvP matches.
- Players feel like combat mechnics are underdeloped
The ones that want progression. Not all players feel this way. And a lot of people dislike it in the PvE because is simple and your fighting tanky enemies or bombarding them with cannons. I don't see or hear people complaining about it as much when given ship to
ship combat.Agian this is for all players just the ones that don't like the current PvP structure it's not all about you or what you consider to be a PvP'er.
Your suggestion isn't for all players as all players do not like PvP and do not want additional insentives. You literally can't state this is for all players. I'm stating this is for your average PvP player.
I agree PvE fighting is poor but that how the mojority of the player base learns to fight and experiances combat.
So? That doesn't negate the fact that its 99% of the combat in the game.
Agian this is not about a PvPer but why a PvE'er or what i'll call potential PvPer is looking for. They need and objective to go after not a target to go kill. You want a target, a challanger, oppenent. Thats well and good but you need to see others point of view.
And your not solving the problem for them since value is not the problem. Its time investment and potential loss. It has nothing to do with potential gain.
And your even contradicting yourself because if you believe they need an objective I'm giving them one. I'm not giving them people to kill like a hoarding mechanic would do. I'm shrinking the PvE down to limit the targets/resources can get... This creates scenarios where players will run into each other and have to decide if they want to fight over that particular piece of loot. For PvPers this is perfect because its creating mini forts built into the PvE. Like forts, it creates a target where PvP can happen. Unlike now where PvP happens if at least 1 person feels like going out of their way to start it.
A hoarding mechanic based on utility is redundant with resources. It add's nothing to PvP or PvP motivations.
Not everyone can participate in PvP as you normally have to go far out your way to. Which is the problem we discussed earilier. They need better trianing tools cause PvP is so random.
Right and overlapping objectives mean people will be seeking out the same objectives and get in each other's way. My proposal isn't suggesting a death match... just getting people into each other's way.
They don't need tools... PvP just has to be part of the natural order of voyaging and expected... and balanced. Thats how other successful games do.
Yes they don't want to fight, but do you understand why? Have you bothered to have a conversation with these players. Value means different things to different people it's arbitrary. Gold for new players is everything but it's worthless to guys like us. Some player don't even care about the grind or PvP and simply want to sail around and explore in piece. Have you even tryed other methods of play?
Yes, they don't fight, they don't want to fight. They hand value and planks over like its nothing they just want progression for the time invested with no hairy business between starting a voyage and completing it.
Why would I play other methods? I don't enjoy it. Also its basically non existent. I'll be toxic until PvPers show up to justify PvPing. Or you can give me and other PvP lovers a place to play.
I seek to give loot meaning and purpose for all players outside of gold. Similar to what you propose. The reason why people donpt fight over resourses and utility items is cause there abundant and easy to aquire without the need to fight over it. Infact it's a waste of resources to fight over it. I how ever enjoy stealing resources from other ships.
You can't add meaning to loot without building an entire game where it has utility... and you still need to build in scarcity to making fighting a worthwhile choice. Hoarding doesn't do this. If resources are important its because they feed into other game mechanics not just benefits for having a lot of them. Same with loot.
Hoarding will not add any meaningful utility because there is nothing in the game that needs it. You need to cut down to make 1 piece of loot meaningful in a game that is this anemic with mechanics and content.
You relize and engaging structure is value. Like i said before i agree having dedicated loot to fight over i'm perfectly fine with this. Just like skull forts it's good PvP. I'm just agianst adding a sepreate mode.
You do relize you don't speak for the entire PvP comunity right? PvP'er all have different reasons why they PvP same thing goes for PvE. What you may particular like or want from PvP may not be what some else wants. So far this game provides little gameplay value to PvP so i don't understand what you mean by saying it's been tryed. Rare added almost nothing of substance to PvP.
But I'm parroting off a lot of what they believe are fun mechanics. The vast majority of PvPers are also fort hoppers. This is where the game shined for them. Which is a fast turn around of Here is loot, everyone is going for it, only 1 can leave with it. You can't recreate that experience with hoarding mechanics.
PvP has depth, ship combat is amazing. Many many many people appreciate it. There was a huge twitch following up to release and when the main game released and more passive people entered the ring, and more solo players... people got bored and left.
Agian they maybe throwing things you percive has value. Do you understand their thought process? Did you bother to even ask? I'm not jumping to any solution but instead taking all the feedback neatly teing all the peices together to form a coherrent and work able solution within the peramiter dictated by Rare. You have a solid piece to that puzzle but it's not whole solution. Spliting the playerbase fall outside Rare parimiters.
The player base is already split and their grinding their way through the game in an unhappy and unhealthy relationship with each other. Holding on to this idea is stupid and wrong.
Acutually it was Forts and Skelly ships that formed the idea of loot hoarding. Agian I'm sorry if you find it pointless but guess what you don't have to particpate in it. It's for those that already spend lots of time gathering loot so you can come in to steal it. Unless you just want to do nothing else but kill. Or maybe you like the racing aspect. Ethier way a loot hoarding objective can work along side you idea there not mutually exclusive. I just want to make all ship potential loot forts.
They are entirely different ideas. This is dumb. You can't compare grinding and hoarding items as the same as a server wide event that invites everyone in for a free for all gank fest.
The hoarding idea is explicitly contradicting my idea of faster gameplay of picking up a voyage and fighting your way through getting a couple of chests and delivering it to a trader in a timely manner.
Agian Rare decreed that this is what they want from their game and like it or not you should respect their disicion cause it's their game. I Rare changes their minds and says other wise then we can revisit this discussion. I hold no alligance to any ideology except that a creator has the sole right to dictate the nature of their creation.
Rare decreed they'd never add AI ships. This isn't an argument its pure stupid. Sure they have a right to dictate what they are going to do. How is this an argument about whether or not the idea presented has merit? It's not. Its not an argument against an idea. Stop it.
57 out of 58
Available on:
