Reputation - loss, risk and negativity.

@daveyjay1984 said in Reputation - loss, risk and negativity.:

@angrycoconut16 Thanks for the invite to get in on this discussion after my input in the previous.
I'm still wholeheartedly disagreeing with the idea but do still get the point of what you are trying to achieve (edit:I'm not going to go into great detail of why because I can't be bothered with the backlash of the previous post, unless someone wants me to go there). While reading your post, I couldn't help but to start thinking of ways to exploit this (I love the devil's advocate role).
So imagine I'm on a server and I'm cruising about collecting chests. I bump into another ship at an island, why wouldn't I just say "let's trade chests, I've already got half the value and you have too, let's get 150% each."
This is something that just popped into my head while reading through your not unsubstantial OP. I may have more thoughts but right now I'm on night shift and my brain is far from 100%, let alone the 150% I could get trading with another crew.

What you're failing to grasp about the concept is that the PvE player doesn't have to swap to get the 150%. If the loot gets turned in, they get the full value of the loot in addition to the bonus they've already received. If a PvP player turns in loot they've stolen, they only get the full value of the loot. And, if the PvP player gets attacked and loses his stolen loot to another crew, he doesn't have the 50% bonus, so he just experiences the 100% loss that folks here think is awful for PvE players. This is meant to be a bonus solely for engaging in PvE.

@i-am-lost-77 said in Reputation - loss, risk and negativity.:

For your second point it’s how you view the system. If you view the bonus as lost xp for PvP then yes. But since the loot values are remaining the same as before pvp has lost nothing and PvE has simple gained some.

More is more. If the pvp isn't equal its a less... and not as worthwhile to do.

To counter-act the “imbalance” that others have argued about on this thread, I have previously suggested a stolen loot bonus that would mirror the one, value wise, given to VC thereby giving PvP the same rewards as PvE.

That creates an incentive system to always PvP. It fundamentally changes the game. One of the reasons the game is different and appealing to a lot of people is it doesn't matter what you do... all the value is only returning the loot. So all the interactions with other players completely revolve around loot, finding it, stealing it, defending it. And the only action that matters currently is turning the loot into the outpost. Everything else is up to the player.

@i-am-lost-77 said in Reputation - loss, risk and negativity.:

@savagetwinky said in Reputation - loss, risk and negativity.:

@i-am-lost-77 said in Reputation - loss, risk and negativity.:

For your second point it’s how you view the system. If you view the bonus as lost xp for PvP then yes. But since the loot values are remaining the same as before pvp has lost nothing and PvE has simple gained some.

More is more. If the pvp isn't equal its a less... and not as worthwhile to do.

To counter-act the “imbalance” that others have argued about on this thread, I have previously suggested a stolen loot bonus that would mirror the one, value wise, given to VC thereby giving PvP the same rewards as PvE.

That creates an incentive system to always PvP. It fundamentally changes the game. One of the reasons the game is different and appealing to a lot of people is it doesn't matter what you do... all the value is only returning the loot. So all the interactions with other players completely revolve around loot, finding it, stealing it, defending it. And the only action that matters currently is turning the loot into the outpost. Everything else is up to the player.

This is why I can’t have a discussion Bc if you change something it’s imbalanced if you balance it incentivizes PvP? You guys just argue to argue Bc you don’t want to see change.

No, I don't want this aspect changed. Because this is the fundamental PRINCIPLES they sold us. You're asking to change foundational elements of the game like its trivial changes.

@i-am-lost-77 said in Reputation - loss, risk and negativity.:

@savagetwinky if PvE get 150% of the current loot and PvP gets 150% of the current loot how does that incentivize PvP? It’s literally the exact same amount for both

That's not what you're proposing.

You are saying you should get 1/3 of the rep for doing an action and 2/3 for turning in loot.

1. Giving 1/3 rep for killing or stealing loot from other players means players will be incentivized to always PvP. It may seem like that now anyway... but it will be much worse with this change.

2. If this pvp incentive is removed that effectively means 1/3 of chests value can only be gotten from completing voyages and PvP is always 2/3s.

The loot is the only thing with intrinsic value regardless activity is an interesting way to approach PvPvE and one of the things that set up... a lot of flexibility with how players interact with each other on the high seas.

@i-am-lost-77 said in Reputation - loss, risk and negativity.:

@savagetwinky did you even read what I posted? A bonus for stolen loot equal to the bonus gained by PvE, so stolen loot on turn in is worth the same as what the PvE player would have earned on turn in.

so now we are back to the beginning where 1/3 of the value is given immediately to a PvE player? But the PvP player has to protect their loot for the full amount. That still means PvE is more valuable as it's less risky... In a PvPvE game where all the risk is having loot. Doesn't matter where the loot came from, PvP players can lose all the value while PvE players cannot.

And we are back to @DaveyJay1984 mentioned this is super easy to cheese. 2 groups do a voyage and get 1/3 then swap chests for 3/3 turn in... doubling chest value with no limit (why I thought we were off this idea). Why not... accrue double XP and just make turn-ins after you've been away for a while better. You lose a night... it's ok you still have double XP still for the next night. People playing a lot do not have the issue of being impacted as heavily by losing some cargo since they make it up by... playing more.

edit:

I don't consider turning in loot either PvP or PvE. Its just turning in the objective. Like going through a goal in capture the flag or delivering 6 orc hearts... it's where you claim the reward.

@i-am-lost-77 said in Reputation - loss, risk and negativity.:

@lotrmith you should learn it’s not about his view it’s about how he presents his arguement. You can disagree with my views but give reasonable counteraguments for discussion, which is what he has done

I might suggest addressing the substance of the arguments rather than the manner in which they are presented or by whom.

@i-am-lost-77 said in Reputation - loss, risk and negativity.:

@lotrmith if the content is presented in a way that is not open to discussion such as nit picking posts then no. Giving valid arguments and counter arguments is a way to discuss and improve ideas. Unfortunately I don’t find that with most of your responses which is why I tend to avoid responding. You have stated your opinion and I have stated mine. When new people come into the post I like to clarify or further explain the argument. But you tend to simply repeat yourself by replying to posts not even directed at you. If you have something to discuss with me that has not been discussed before or you have found some further evidence to support your opinion feel free to present it for discussion. I am fine with disagreement I just am tired of repeating myself to you and the others who comment on every post with the same responses.

One could say the same of those who support this suggestion and jump all over new posters that support it too like it's some sort of meaningful development. Sadly, any new post on this subject is literally nothing new that hadn't been said by the end of the first page of the previous thread. This new thread should have never been created, but since it has, and this is a public form, opponents as well as supporters are free to address posts and posters alike as they see fit. You don't get to criticise opponents for repeating themselves when your side is doing the exact same thing.

@i-am-lost-77 Nah, that's not why I created the surrender mechanic thread. Also, if you surrender, you lose all your loot - kinda the point of surrendering.

And, half the value of the voyage can't be considered a small bonus. Any amount small enough to be comparable to commendations would fail to satisfy people supporting this idea.

'This game isn't for everyone, so why can't it be for everyone?'

@i-am-lost-77 said in Reputation - loss, risk and negativity.:

@savagetwinky did you even read what I posted? A bonus for stolen loot equal to the bonus gained by PvE, so stolen loot on turn in is worth the same as what the PvE player would have earned on turn in.

Unless you consider turning in loot PvP now?

This has been addressed so you can thank yourself for us repeating ourselves:

PvE player acquires loot. Earns bonus. Loses loot. Still gets bonus.

PvP player steals some loot. Earns no bonus. Loses loot. Still gets no bonus.

You would reward the PvE player before they turn in loot, but not the PvP player. Quite a discrepancy.

@graiis said:

Because some people are advocating to split the rewards so that some amount of rep is untouchable...

Lol yeah, my comment was meant to dismiss those ideas so that we could get back to the topic. We can very easily address additional opportunities to earn XP on voyages without touching any aspects of PvP. The OP's proposed reward changes may affect player behaviors and, by circumstance, affect PvPvE interactions; but this has nothing to do altering rewards on PvP exchanges.

angrycoconut16 said:

...This idea is about awarding some BONUS reputation earlier in the voyage... an amount of reputation which is equivalent to roughly 50% of the current hand in value for loot now... this is a BONUS, so it wouldn't be deducted from the loot, the loot still holds the same value.

@lotrmith
And you are making it easier by guaranteeing it... how do you not understand such a simple concept?

The game is... rewarded only through cosmetics, there is nothing else to really achieve and the chests are super easy to acquire.

I'm not making assumptions about personalities. Only pointing out how the game is laid out. Games aren't made for everyone and if you can't handle loss or the lack of meaningful progression across games then a PvP that went for an egalitarian setup and put all the value on loot you acquire isn't for you.

@theblackbellamy said in Reputation - loss, risk and negativity.:

@graiis said:

Because some people are advocating to split the rewards so that some amount of rep is untouchable...

Lol yeah, my comment was meant to dismiss those ideas so that we could get back to the topic. We can very easily address additional opportunities to earn XP on voyages without touching any aspects of PvP. The OP's proposed reward changes may affect player behaviors and, by circumstance, affect PvPvE interactions; but this has nothing to do altering rewards on PvP exchanges.

angrycoconut16 said:

...This idea is about awarding some BONUS reputation earlier in the voyage... an amount of reputation which is equivalent to roughly 50% of the current hand in value for loot now... this is a BONUS, so it wouldn't be deducted from the loot, the loot still holds the same value.

That's a lie. You can't give a bonus to one without affecting the other.

I've already pointed this out, the distinction between bonus vs penalty makes NO difference. Proportionally the PvP is now less. You're now subtly diminishing rewards for PvP.

Unless he's giving a bonus for stealing loot. Now there is a direct reason to gank on site, even if it's equal with PvE. Or giving the bonus on turning... the loot is still more valuable then a shipwreck so if you spot one and a player.. chances are the player is more valuable, and you can get the shipwreck after.

@i-am-lost-77 said in Reputation - loss, risk and negativity.:

@savagetwinky and if they lose 2 nights now the game is sold for better ones. Great design. Have you looked at the recent threads: PvE servers, surrender mechanics, etc why? Because people are tired of losing all their loot and progress. I want people to fight and defend their loot I love this and believe it to be an integral part of the game. this suggestion is simply to turn a bad game design into one where people get rewarded for playing.

There are winners and losers. Not everyone is good at a game why should that mean they can’t enjoy it? Not everyone has time to invest into a game why shouldn’t they progress? This suggestions is an overall improvement to the game to design to cater to all players. Turning in loot isn’t gonna be devalued because of a small bonus on VC. If you don’t like it fine that’s you opinion. but this ridiculous notion that the game is gonna drastically change Bc of a small bonus xp for completing a voyage is well ridiculous.

No one is crying over commendations! Those award rep without having loot. “Oh but it’s so small.” Exactly! This will be a small bonus to encourage ppl to play more which is good for developers and players. Having someone log in once a week to get a xp bonus is not as good as rewarding players for playing all the time.

Again this argument relies on people never being able to turn in loot. Eventually, they will and its worth more. Going for PL isn't supposed to easy, it's a long term goal. I hear far more complaints about not enough pvp then losing loot. People find just voyaging for hours boring. The vast majority of people aren't losing loot every time they step into the game.

@savagetwinky said:

Proportionally the PvP is now less. You're now subtly diminishing rewards for PvP.

You might be diminishing the value of rewards altogether, but unless you're creating a decrease in point-value of rewards gained by PvP means, I can't grant you that.

Of course if you inflate SoT with rep/XP, it will diminish the value of rep/XP. Though without actually reducing the rep/XP on loot earned in PvP exchanges, I don't think it's fair to say that PvP exchanges are unfairly diminished in some way.

Unless he's giving a bonus for stealing loot.

Now here's an interesting idea. You steal some loot, you get the same low-point rep/XP that the person earned for finding it. I'd be 100% behind this. This is also not what the topic is about. The topic is about giving all players additional opportunities to earn more XP on voyages. If you're a player who exclusively PvPs then of course, by circumstances of your behavior, you'd miss out on these opportunities; but you really couldn't call it being "penalized".

@theblackbellamy said in Reputation - loss, risk and negativity.:

You might be diminishing the value of rewards altogether, but unless you're creating a decrease in point-value of rewards gained by PvP means, I can't grant you that.
Of course if you inflate SoT with rep/XP, it will diminish the value of rep/XP. Though without actually reducing the rep/XP on loot earned in PvP exchanges, I don't think it's fair to say that PvP exchanges are unfairly diminished in some way.

Can't grant me that ? Unfortunately, you're just wrong. It objectively makes PvP worse or PvE better. It doesn't matter your point of view, what matters is how someone behaves in-game when faced with more or less.

PvP is diminished based on a value proposition when presented with a choice of doing something that gives 1 during the act and 2 after, where PvP gives only 2. It's factually a worse choice to make.

It doesn't matter how you rearrange the numbers in the end PvP is a worse choice for the player.

Now here's an interesting idea. You steal some loot, you get the same low-point rep/XP that the person earned for finding it. I'd be 100% behind this. This is also not what the topic is about. The topic is about giving all players additional opportunities to earn more XP on voyages. If you're a player who exclusively PvPs then of course, by circumstances of your behavior, you'd miss out on these opportunities; but you really couldn't call it being "penalized".

You'd be 100% behind it as I've already pointed out if fundamentally effects motivations in the game. Right now the act of PvP is not rewarded directly.

Basically, in order to make everything equal, this proposal starts adding value to all actions in the game and starts undermining the role of thievery in a game designed around... thievery.

That's like putting more flat surfaces in Mario because you find jumping boring... the game is about jumping... alot. Jumping on enemies, jumping to platforms... how many people are demanding mario have less jumping because they have terrible depth perception?

@lotrmith be more specific, what discrepancy?

edit: you probably mean the typo

Games aren't made for everyone. It's just not possible. Different games for different preferences.

@savagetwinky said:

I said:

You might be diminishing the value of rewards altogether, but unless you're creating a decrease in point-value of rewards gained by PvP means, I can't grant you that.
Of course if you inflate SoT with rep/XP, it will diminish the value of rep/XP. Though without actually reducing the rep/XP on loot earned in PvP exchanges, I don't think it's fair to say that PvP exchanges are unfairly diminished in some way.

Can't grant me that? Unfortunately, you're just wrong. It objectively makes PvP worse or PvE better. It doesn't matter your point of view, what matters is how someone behaves in-game when faced with more or less.

PvP is diminished based on a value proposition when presented with a choice of doing something that gives 1 during the act and 2 after, where PvP gives only 2. It's factually a worse choice to make.

It doesn't matter how you rearrange the numbers in the end PvP is a worse choice for the player.

We seem to be speaking past each other. I'll agree to the idea that a small, additional amount XP on voyages would incentivize voyaging in a way that PvP would not, but that's just tautologically correct because of what voyages are. This doesn't directly disincentivize PvP, especially when loot's turn-in XP would be much greater than the voyage-XP.

This would really just create an inflation of XP and thus diminish the value of XP, period.

You steal some loot, you get the same low-point rep/XP that the person earned for finding it. I'd be 100% behind this.

You'd be 100% behind it as I've already pointed out if fundamentally effects motivations in the game. Right now the act of PvP is not rewarded directly.

Well yes, similar to the idea presented in the main topic of this thread, rewarding XP for stolen loot would also affect player behavior.

Basically, in order to make everything equal, this proposal starts adding value to all actions in the game and starts undermining the role of thievery in a game designed around... thievery.

Again man, this doesn't necessarily disincentivize thievery. An incentive to do one thing doesn't necessarily mean everything else is undermined, especially when the incentive is proportionally smaller.

That's like putting more flat surfaces in Mario because you find jumping boring... the game is about jumping... alot. Jumping on enemies, jumping to platforms...

You're assuming a few things here and making unrelated analogies. I'd liken an idea of "fast-travel" or "cruise-control" to something like "eliminating jumping from Mario".

I'm not supporting the idea of additional XP because I find a particular aspect of the game boring. I'm proposing this because I find a particular aspect of the game entertaining, and I'd like to see it enhanced in a way that follows traditional video-game concepts of rewarding XP for effort put in.

Are we on the same page now?

@theblackbellamy said in Reputation - loss, risk and negativity.:

@savagetwinky said:
We seem to be speaking past each other. I'll agree to the idea that a small, additional amount XP on voyages would incentivize voyaging in a way that PvP would not, but that's just tautologically correct because of what voyages are. This doesn't directly disincentivize PvP, especially when loot's turn-in XP would be much greater than the voyage-XP.

It actually does, if people are so sensitive about their time now just take a moment to think. If you see a ship on the horizon, you have to ask yourself is it worth sailing all the way over their to get loot that won't be as valuable then if you continued on your voyage? He may not even have loot.

I completely understand why you're doing in and understand the perspective. A week after it's implementation no one will care. One is more, the other is less.

You've lowered the value of making a choice to thieve in a game designed around thievery.

This would really just create an inflation of XP and thus diminish the value of XP, period.

And diminish PvP... period.

Again man, this doesn't necessarily disincentivize thievery. An incentive to do one thing doesn't necessarily mean everything else is undermined, especially when the incentive is proportionally smaller.

It does. It incentives something else more. You're still looking at the choice of giving a benefit to voyages from an outsiders perspective... not the person who has to make a choice in the game.

Its like force, if you create a force there is an equal and opposite force. By having an incentive to do x then y which is less valuable now is a disincentive due to the poorer value proposition.

It's basic math dude. It doesn't matter how you try to position it. More is more... and less is less.

You're assuming a few things here and making unrelated analogies. I'd liken an idea of "fast-travel" or "cruise-control" to something like "eliminating jumping from Mario".

They are not unrelated. It's based on the same principles. If you have a game where the major draw is platforming... and then start undermining platforming aspects... your undermining your own game.

I'm not supporting the idea of additional XP because I find a particular aspect of the game boring. I'm proposing this because I find a particular aspect of the game entertaining, and I'd like to see it enhanced in a way that follows traditional video-game concepts of rewarding XP for effort put in.

Or we go with what they promised us, a game designed around adventuring and PvP. This is not a traditional PvE structure so applying other ideas here because of tradition is a baseless argument.

The PvE is structured with thievery in mind. That's why loot is easy to acquire (IE not a heavy investment therefore not a heavy loss), all items with value that are part of fetch quests for.. so all players have the opportunity to steal said value. If you haven't made stupid decisions to turn your boat into a roaming pinata... your not losing that much.

@theblackbellamy @SavageTwinky You aren't getting a portion of the value and then the rest when turned in, you are getting 50% of the value as an extra bonus and 100% of the value when you turn it in - and you're guaranteed that 50% bonus. So, effectively, a chest acquired by thievery is worth 100% while it is worth 150% when acquired on a voyage (1/3 of which is guaranteed if the loot is lost). You can also look at it in the reverse: a chest is worth 100% on a voyage (33% of which you keep regardless), and 66% when acquired by thievery (and you can lose all of that). Both ways illustrate illustrate why this disincentivizes theft.

Currently, when it comes to chests and skulls, the value is not dependent upon the manner in which you got the loot. This incentivizes thievery. By increasing the value you get for PvE by 1/3 and guaranteeing that portion regardless of being able to turn in the loot, you disincentivize thievery because you can get more value by just doing the voyages. This problem is worsened by the fact that, if you do gain loot via thievery and then someone steals it from you, there is no guaranteed value that you retain like you would if you'd acquired the chest via a voyage. So, why steal? You'd get 1/3 more value by just doing the voyages - and that extra 1/3 value is guaranteed.

@entspeak ^ he gets it. I can't keep track of who I'm arguing against any more but this appears to understand what I'm saying.

And the only way to fix this is guarantee rep directly through thievery thus creating an incentive to thieve at every opportunity.

@savagetwinky Yes. And the problem with @I-Am-Lost-77 's "stolen loot" bonus is the exploit. Two crews team up, they do their voyages to get their voyage bonus. They meet up and swap loot, thereby getting the stolen loot bonus. Turn it in and end up with 200% value (100% value of loot, 50% voyage bonus, 50% stolen loot bonus). It just doesn't work.