NEW FACTION - COMBAT/PVP

@angrycoconut16 I see no one is replying, original post is probably wayy too long.

TLDR: New faction, combat. You get reputation from killing players. More from killing players with a higher PvP rep, very little rep for killing new players, and PvE players (if they have a low combat faction rep). If you are attacked but can fight off the attackers or even kill them, you get some nice rep. This should encourage healthier PvP in the game.

Bounty can be used as a way to further help PvP - people who kill lots still gain their rewards, but are more of a target from other people wanting to boost their combat/PvP rep.

Bumping it up, I feel like this has potential and would be interested to hear opinions.

@chrisandlewis15 Thanks! :) I am really hoping to get some popularity for this idea, my discussion was a bit lengthy but I've thought about it a lot and combined other peoples ideas into it and I think this is a good 'first idea' towards something which could be very healthy for the game.

Yea that seems like a fair idea. I think the guns need to be altered as at the moment the blunderbuss is the only attractive PvP option and I like my sniper gun :(

@nightmaresp Well everyone already has a rank - your rep, all pirates have one on their journey in the direction of pirate legend. Admittedly there's no active system which relies on looking at the rank of different people and using that to make decisions, but for combat purposes I think it would be alright, it's not a case of trying to force players to do a certain thing but actively rewarding more positive player, i.e. taking on players who are actually closer to your rep (and therefore experience level)

As for all time hostile players, well they will automatically get bounties if they are always killing people, so they will be a target themselves.

I love this idea!

@princes-lettuce Thanks! Exactly, and I think some players are more like 'ok we need to escape to a PvE server' or 'ok punish people who do it', I think it's far healthier to REWARD positive play, and no one should be punished for PvP - it's a core part of a pirate game! But lets give people more incentive and reward for targeting people who are more their level, or far more of a challenge if they like! :)

(Oh and the merchant faction always confuses me - not particularly piratey? xD Whereas this faction would fit right in to a pirate game I think. :) )

I like this idea a lot +1

@barthornftw Thank you :)

Yes! I'd like the 4th faction thing. One thing i've thought of is that if you sink another ship, there should be some bonuses for others who attack you, like a bounty system that ticks up each session maybe (that maybe shows up automaticly on your ships flag?)

Another thing is that there should be no rep-bonus for ship-camping. I dont quite know how this's gonna work, since if you sink a ship (and therefore get a bounty on your head) the ship you sunk probably wanna get revenge (and the bounty-bonus), and here the problem kicks in: To avoid ship-camping there should be a no-bonus for sinking the same ship, but if the same ship attacks you, you have to defend yourself.

Anyhow, i like that people are speculating at improving the pvp, so it's more enjoyable for both pvp-ers and pve-ers!

@angusmcstabby I think this should be resolved if the respawn distance is far enough away. And at that point... if there's still a problem then there could be no bonus for the same ship... I suppose also the system could be abused if two friends on separate ships LET each other sink each other for free rep, so this system would also prevent that. Good idea :)

@sir-placoderme True. All the grinds could be reduced quite easily though, they could adjust rep according to number of factions etc.

The thing is, you could argue that people who prefer PvP are being 'forced' to do PvE things to become pirate legend. I think the other factions are mainly advanced through PvE, any PvP contribution is largely luck if enemies happen to have ship and ship encounters are generally easy to avoid if you keep an eye out and sail accordingly.

I do see your concern, but I think this would allow PvP to be healthy thing, even if more players do it to obtain the pirate legend status, it can be something whereby everyone always feels like they can get something from it - in the form of rep and therefore progress towards legend, even if they lose some loot in the process.

I do understand your concern, although remember no one is forced to do it per say, but yes it is a requirement if people want to achieve the pirate legend status.

@savagetwinky I respectfully disagree, you can not level any trading companies by PvP, not at all, only by PvE. PvP is purely every here and there to defend your loot, and PvP can result in you LOSING rep (not literally, but you can lose the loot you need to gain rep, I mean sure you can win it too, but more often then not you will be losing it if something goes sour)

I understand your concern but I feel as though it would intertwine the two as well - if you are sailing and pirates attack you, you still have the chance of gaining PvP rep by sinking them back, or killing your attackers.

I also don't believe it would segregate them as people wanting to achieve pirate legend would be involved in both, which works both ways, PvP players have to go some PvE, and PvE players need to do a bit of PvP, so players who want legend would experience both worlds.

Strongly disagree with the OP.

There is NO way to fairly determine who is the aggressor or the "griefer" in a pvp situation. There is also no way to accurately determine how "good" of a player you are since there is no vertical progression.

A Bounty system will ruin this game. Giving players punishments will vary wildly from situation to situation. It would be very easy to be punished as a defender and rewarded as a troll. It will also be easy to for people to game the system by goading peaceful players into "firing the first shot", then thereby being marked or punished as an aggresor while the troll is rewarded.

I've played many mmos with bounty systems. They always have loopholes and you always have people being treated unfairly. Leave it out of SoT.

@savagetwinky I SAID not literally, I am well aware you can't lose rep.

And if you tried to level through only PvP it would take AGES, absolutely ages. Find, you can level up INDIRECTLY through PvP but it takes longer and is nowhere near as efficient. Lets be real though, by that logic the new PvP faction would ALSO allow you to level up your PvE for the same reasons.

I may well be missing something too. Can you clarify exactly which faction you can level up by PvP currently, and how this would stop with the introduction of a new PvP faction?

"the PvP attacker would get very little BUT if the newbies (or for instance, PvE players defending their loot) managed to turn it around and kill the players, or sink their ship, they would earn much more rep."

This line is flawed in so many ways. How would the game decide when someone is defending their loot? Proximity? What if I sneak aboard your ship and get shot next to your loot? Now I'M the defender of YOUR loot. Last pirate to carry it?

What if I had just picked it off your ship? What if you sunk my ship, respawn camped me, and taken my loot and I'm returning to take it back. Now I'm the bad guy when I was the one to spend hours grinding for it?

What if I had spent the last hour killing all the skeletons on fort and you come along and steal my hard earned treasure from out under my nose. When I attack you for it, I would be punished for taking the loot? That would be ridiculously unfair.

NO BOUNTY SYSTEM.

@ilumino The new faction would allow for vertical progression.

Who is the aggressive and victim/griefer is irelevant, this system would depend purely on kills, and in combat it makes no difference who attacks first or who is defending, if you sink or kill then you are the one who has come out on top.

The bounty system I have suggested is not designed to punish. It is designed to provide a challenge for stronger PvP players.

I don't understand, you need to give an example of a troll and how they would benefit, and as I have already said it is irrelevant who fires first..

Sure, but explain please. How would a bounty system be unfair?

@ilumino As I said above, the defender is IRRELEVANT. The experience of a player would be judged by their PvP faction reputation.

If you sneaked aboard, and they kill you, they get some rep. I'm not saying this idea doesn't need work but it is irrelevant who is the defender and aggressor. There are no good and bad guys. The rep gain doesn't change depending on whether you are defending or the 'good' or 'bad' guy in a situation, just on if you can kill.

If you had tons of loot, and you killed me, you get rep for killing me. But yes, you would then reward a tiny bit more rep if you were killed, but like I said, there is a THRESHOLD to be on the wanted poster, and it could be quite high, perhaps you have to kill 15-20 pirates, or sink 10 ships? I don't know, it would be a while before other pirates could see you on wanted posters.

@angrycoconut16 said in NEW FACTION - COMBAT/PVP:

@ilumino The new faction would allow for vertical progression.

Who is the aggressive and victim/griefer is irelevant, this system would depend purely on kills, and in combat it makes no difference who attacks first or who is defending, if you sink or kill then you are the one who has come out on top.

The bounty system I have suggested is not designed to punish. It is designed to provide a challenge for stronger PvP players.

I don't understand, you need to give an example of a troll and how they would benefit, and as I have already said it is irrelevant who fires first..

Sure, but explain please. How would a bounty system be unfair?

So you're saying that the reward would be equal no matter who fired first? Then why have a bounty at all if the reward is equal for all?

NO. The reward already exists from the treasure the other ship was possibly carrying. NO need for another"bounty"on top of it.

And absolutely NO vertical progression.

"If you had tons of loot, and you killed me, you get rep for killing me. But yes, you would then reward a tiny bit more rep if you were killed,"

You just contradicted yourself. You said there would be no difference in the reward based on who was the aggressor. Now you say there is. Get your story straight.

Again. YOU CANNOT DETERMINE AGGRESSOR in this game.

@angrycoconut16 To play devils advocate here, What would happen if a player with a high pvp score decided they wanted to step away from that aspect for a while? Since other ships are incentivized to go after them, they will find that they cannot escape the PvP aspect. Additionally, players of high level are going to find themselves in a fairly significant grind due to the MASSIVE rng that is going to accompany this faction. If the server you get placed in does not have any high or similar-ranked players, you are wasting your time on that server while everyone else will likely do their best to kill you. And you have no control over this. Every other faction has a very defined task-reward system that does get grindy at the end, but there is a guarantee that you will be rewarded if you get A from B and deliver to C. With this PvP faction, there is no guarantee you will even be able to progress when you want to. Any player that takes the time to understand their ship (if you are a PvPer, you damn well should) will understand that it is very possible to outrun other ships indefinitely. Galleons are faster with the wind, while sloops are able to go against the wind faster. Any player that does not wish to fight need only turn tail and you will simply never catch them since you cannot exceed their speed if they sail right. Finally, how would you assign a rating to a ship that rewards commensurate reputation, as well as to players, that correctly identifies the cause of sinking. Lets say a sloop that is badly damaged is being chased by another ship (or two). If they make the decision to run aground or scuttle their ship, will it reward points to the person who caused damage? And if simply causing damage to a ship is enough to raise reputation, what is to stop people from exploiting the system and shooting another ship above the waterline while they do the same, keeping their ships afloat and boosting their reputation.

@ilumino You aren't making any sense at all.. re-read my initial post it explains it all, then reply when you're really for some constructive discussion. It isn't hard to understand.

@savagetwinky I suppose it depends on the individuals aim of doing PvP. Some people do it for fun and don't care about rewards, for them PvE contribution is indirect. But if people purely do it to seek treasure, then yes they are getting PvE directly from PvP.

PvP is not exclusive to PvP for exactly the same reason you are trying to explain to me - people will definitely win some loot to hand in to the other factions while attacking other players. You can't say 'as it stands PvP can give loot for PvE' and then say it will change with a PvP faction, it won't, people will still be doing PvE quests and if they get attacked by someone trying to improve their PvP faction rep, they can steal their loot if they win, and thus get PvE rep. It's exactly the same.

@ultimavisio Hmm, well the bounty would only be there until they are killed ONCE, at which point whoever deals the killing blow earns the bounty rep. But yes, when having a high PvP rep they will always look like a challenging target to anyone with a lower rep, so some people may choose to engage.

That is a very good point actually! At high levels the grind would be slower, I mean that is also true for the other factions at the moment from what I've heard 25+ the grind gets steeper and steeper.. but yea that is a significant weakness, not only requiring more rep to level up but getting less as almost everyone will be below you. Perhaps to solve that the system can use groupings of players? So rather than saying well a level 44 is lower than you, so you get less rep as you're 47, perhaps say well both of you players are level 40-50 therefore you get a certain level of rep. Maybe everyone can be banded into 5 groups, 1-10, 11-20, 21-30 etc...

I am not concerned about people trying to escape, I think that is one of the challenges of PvP in general, you will find people docked at an island who you can ambush or people at sea who can't turn in time, and if it proves to be extremely difficult then the rep required for levels in this faction could be chosen in proportion to this..

That is a point I hadn't considered! Thanks for this. The last one in particular is a big weakness, scuttling could be used as a way to DENY people reputation. I was talking with a friend today about it and we identified another system of abuse - two pirate who decide to cooperate and let each other sink their ship and take it in turns, or let each other kill one another for exp. However, this is already harder as the respawn distance has been increased for ships, so you wouldn't necessarily know where someone else is, but players could also be given immunity for a certain length of time whereby if they are killed by the SAME person they don't reward rep. That would stop abuse of that system?

With regards to your suggestion... that's a difficult one, scuttling the ship is definitely an important feature.. Off the top of my head I can't think of a way around this, but this has identified a definite flaw in this idea, thanks for your contribution. :)

@angrycoconut16 My friends and I also thought a PvP faction with commendations/rep with ship/weapon/clothing/equipment skins was a giant missed opportunity on Rare's part.

I mean if there was a rep sail that was solid black with blood red skull and cross-sabers that required you to be 50, which means killing thousands of, if not more, players, would you want to mess with THAT ship?