[Mega Thread] The Arena - Part 2

  • Prof Mamadu
    Captain
    Insider
    Founder

    Double-gun problem and my solution:

    In my opinion, the usage of 2 guns to quickly fire one after the other is only an issue at long range due to unrealistic and game-breaking carrying of accuracy from the first gun to the second. Allow me to explain what I mean:

    Firing a blunderbuss at close range, followed by a pistol or a sniper isn't disturbing to me. It is a small compensation for the lack of numerous abilities that the player is missing out by not carrying a cutlass and it is also a high risk move because if you miss one of the shots you are vulnerable, in need of reloading two guns while your enemy is close to you and will likely slice you with a cutlass.

    The disturbing problem is when someone aims a sniper at the enemy at long range, shoots it, continues to hold the aim key/button, immediately switches to pistol and shoots it too while the aiming of the sniper was carried on from the sniper to the pistol. This has 2 problems: 1) it is unrealistic to have the second weapon already aimed when you only aimed with the first one, and 2) it is game-breaking because it allows you to do something equivalent to a LONG-DISTANCE one-shot.

    Notice that a short-distance one-shot isn't game-breaking because there is high reward but also high risk (performing it takes some effort and the short distance means you will likely die if you fail). But a long-distance one-shot is high reward and LOW RISK. Because you are far away so you have nothing to lose in trying (you will likely be able to run/hide if you fail).

    So to solve the problem, I DON'T think some cool-down time should be imposed between firing the first gun and the second. That would be a huge nerf to guns in general and I believe the sword is already way too powerful (proof is that it is the number 1 most used weapon). I think the solution is to simply NOT allow the aiming to carry from the first gun to the second. So if I aim a sniper and then switch to pistol, I will be able to shoot the pistol quickly without aiming but with low accuracy so the second shot will likely fail at long range. This way a player can still quickly shoot 2 guns but it will only be effective in close quarters (which is ok because it is realistic and not game-breaking, for the reasons i mentioned before).

  • A Cranky Eskimo
    Master
    Insider
    Founder

    @prof-mamadu Still is a huge advantage to have the consistent precision of a mouse and easier keypresses of a keyboard when aiming and doing this two shot button combo.

    I think a slower more tactical approach to the player combat gameplay all along was a better idea.

    Back in the alpha when you had to ads before firing, the game was a lot more fun and less twitch and reaction time skill based but instead teamwork and tactics based, with stealth and the element of suprise being much larger factors than they are now, which is how a pirate game should be.

    The 2 shot in anything less than like 2 seconds should go altogether, along with the addition of ADS fix you suggest, you shouldnt be able to remain aimed when you just switched weapons, thats just plain broke. 2 seconds is still fast and aiming to do it would still require skill, imo even more so because you have to either track the target or reacquire it and time the shot again rather than just spam 2 shots.

  • Prof Mamadu
    Captain
    Insider
    Founder

    @a-cranky-eskimo

    I can't agree with your solution, unless the cutlass gets a big nerf or the guns get a big buff (in some other aspect).

    Otherwise, the already number 1 chosen weapon (cutlass) grows an even bigger advantage towards other weapons. The 4-weapon variety must be accompanied by a good overall balancing among the 4, to avoid falling into any weapon selection meta.

    EDIT:

    @prof-mamadu Still is a huge advantage to have the consistent precision of a mouse and easier keypresses of a keyboard when aiming and doing this two shot button combo.

    I don't understand the problem you mention here. The loss of aim means you will fail at long range regardless of your mouse or keyboard's precision, you need to re-aim if you want to hit the second shot.

  • JetOrchidee97
    Vanguard
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    Founder

    @prof-mamadu a dit dans [Mega Thread] The Arena - Part 2 :

    Notice that a short-distance one-shot isn't game-breaking because there is high reward but also high risk (performing it takes some effort and the short distance means you will likely die if you fail). But a long-distance one-shot is high reward and LOW RISK. Because you are far away so you have nothing to lose in trying (you will likely be able to run/hide if you fail).

    I would agree but I've seen so much streamers getting away very easily after failed double shot at short distance by jumping everywhere, also because there's often obstacles between him and its opponent and bananas.

  • Prof Mamadu
    Captain
    Insider
    Founder

    @jetorchidee97 said in [Mega Thread] The Arena - Part 2:

    @prof-mamadu a dit dans [Mega Thread] The Arena - Part 2 :

    Notice that a short-distance one-shot isn't game-breaking because there is high reward but also high risk (performing it takes some effort and the short distance means you will likely die if you fail). But a long-distance one-shot is high reward and LOW RISK. Because you are far away so you have nothing to lose in trying (you will likely be able to run/hide if you fail).

    I would agree but I've seen so much streamers getting away very easily after failed double shot at short distance by jumping everywhere, also because there's often obstacles between him and its opponent and bananas.

    That can only happen if the opponent is really low skill. I don't mean to brag but if someone is close-range to me and has both weapons in need of reload I will kill him/her no matter what weapons I'm using.

  • JetOrchidee97
    Vanguard
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    @prof-mamadu a dit dans [Mega Thread] The Arena - Part 2 :

    That can only happen if the opponent is really low skill. I don't mean to brag but if someone is close-range to me and has both weapons in need of reload I will kill him/her no matter what weapons I'm using.

    Does close range mean sword range? In that case maybe… if not, I wouldn't be so sure about that (against an equal level player).

  • Prof Mamadu
    Captain
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    Founder

    @jetorchidee97 said in [Mega Thread] The Arena - Part 2:

    @prof-mamadu a dit dans [Mega Thread] The Arena - Part 2 :

    That can only happen if the opponent is really low skill. I don't mean to brag but if someone is close-range to me and has both weapons in need of reload I will kill him/her no matter what weapons I'm using.

    Does close range mean sword range? In that case maybe… if not, I wouldn't be so sure about that (against an equal level player).

    Well ok I guess being "close" isn't zero or one. The farther away the less risky it is to double-gun, but also the less likely you are to hit your target without re-aiming the second gun (if they follow my suggestion of losing aim from first to second gun). And to me this seems fair and ok. And even with this mechanics, most people will still carry a cutlass instead of 2 guns and that says something.

  • EF BoBzeSponge
    Insider

    Considering the fanbase will be splitted, and that sometimes you can play 2 hours without seeing anyone. Then it'll leave the PvE part of the game really empty. A lot of people complains about the PvP players. But it's the way piracy is! The current game is very good because: you're under pressure all the time. You must have an eye around you when sailing, seeking treasure or batteling skeletons because of PvP players. The fear of a bad encounter is a basic in this kind of game.

    You should instead improve the battle systems (with grapples, smoke shots, fire shots, boarding axes, nerfing scout rifles...etc...)... This arena mode will decrease the pleasure felt playing adventure mode wich is the perfect cross between PvP and PvE game. That's why it is cool!

    Then you'll have alot of full PvP players in the arena and there won't be a lot of aggressive (real pirates in fact) players in the adventure game.

    With my firends we always do both when we're playing. Looting, seeking treasure, fighting skeletons and players when the opportunity comes. We won sometimes, and loose sometimes. But we had to adapt our strategies to ensure that all our gold, skull in our boat should be safe. Not very happy about the arena mode. A map expansion and the possibility to have 8 boats on a server would have been better. Also to let the possibility of a quick time play (30mins to one hour) add a quick quest option. Like few chests or few skulls on one island. In fact the possibility to buy small quests and not randomly found in barels.

    And do not listen crying players about PC gamers cheating, or spawn kills, or not being able to play the game without fighting. Those are week. This game is a struggle for survival as was the pirate life. Do it or die!

    Arrrrrrrrr

  • DonkeyKroc
    Lord
    Insider

    Please increase max FOV. I have some problems with motion sickness but don't get bothered at all by mainstream FPS games (CS:GO, PUBG). A few hours of this has left me feeling terrible. 90 is unacceptable, and it should be increased significantly - 110+. PC players already have an enormous advantage, so who cares if it increases a little more? Just enable crossplay on/off.

  • CalebOwnzU
    Insider

    Yeah, he’s right . Either enable mouse and keyboard on console or just remove the cross play it’s like you guys don’t even care about Xbox players at all

  • CalebOwnzU
    Insider

    @what-a-banshee yes omg rare doesn’t even care about console players. They could easily let Xbox players use keyboard and mouse, other games on Xbox allow you to, rare is just to lazy to add it in bc they are a garbage game company

  • Cpt Ser Rikari
    Master
    Insider
    Founder

    I don't believe Arena will cause a segregation of this community. So often I've seen communities create a new zone for players to focus on PvP and typically they jump between PvP and PvE. With the amount of players playing the game, I doubt that there would ever not be enough PvP players playing the Voyage mode (I'm going to call it this from now on). In fact, Arena will likely draw away the more toxic parts of the community into it. This will make Voyage mode more enjoyable (imo).

    I support Arena and think it's a fantastic idea. I really don't think every single PvP player is going to join Arena. Besides, you can't become a Pirate Legend in Arena and quite a bit of PvP players will probably also want to fight it out over some great treasure.

    And now that I think about it, they are also adding story elements to the game which will make Voyage mode more interesting. That also means those players are likely going to come back for some good story and lore and other cool things Rare adds.

  • watchmeshred
    Seafarer

    Hey Devs!

    As exciting as Arena Mode seems, I want to highlight that segmenting up your playerbase artificially can potentially damage the organic nature of encounters that made this game so great at the start for me. The sentiment is a little like going from Vanilla WoW's open world "wild west" lifelike feel to the highly controlled and boxed engagements that Arenas, Battlegrounds, Looking For Raid, and Looking For Group systems that plasticized it, and in the long run, drove players away.

    Yes, people may want this now because it certainly does sound great, or it seems like PVP can be filed away for the PVE'ers wanting less interruptions to their questing. But this simple one-mode setup of the current game is an emotional design that makes it feel "more" real. The palpable fear of going out on the open seas and possibly getting raided makes this game an incredibly cathartic experience and keeps me on my toes. It really does feel like piracy at it's most natural.

    Incidentally, I'd also like to mention that I hope you guys don't patch up the ability to hide in the environment and have our ID's obfuscated when our heads are buried in the geometries. Yeah, it looks/feels like a bug, but allowing players to successfully hide fulfills a natural human instinct to want such capabilities when engaging in covert operations. It adds the value of both freedom and strategic depth in PVP in a very organic manner and was the primary reason for me playing the game much more than previously. The gameplay is beautifully busy, and missing a check for stowaways is a mistake I can believably commit.

    Even after the introduction of Arena Mode I'm pretty sure I'll still be playing the original mode solely for the unadulterated pirate experience provided that player counts don't drop on non-Arena servers, but I have my doubts. This isn't my game, but I'd like to let you know that the appreciation for this game can be one of those slowburns that will get better with time as players become more skilled. Catering so quickly to "artificial" features may just flatten out an experience that was feeling truly unique. Maybe make it a once a month weeklong event that players can engage with; PUBG implemented this to great effect. This opens up an opportunity for you to test many wacky game mode implementations without commiting to them and destroying the core experience. Plus, this creates an experience people can look forward to on a regular basis.

    Lastly, I'd like to thank Summit1G, Pace22, Smokey, and Cobbobles for being some real bad guys out there and acting out a true threat for me while sailing the high seas. My anxiety is at a high, and my anticipation of turning the tables on them one day is a great feeling. I truly feel that trading the emotional design of the current game for calculated design motives is a detriment that may possibly be unrecoverable. Respect the meta, it's the negative-space of your design. It's the intangible x-factor that corporate beancounters will never understand and can doom a work of art.

    I hope you all make some good decisions for your game.

  • Rudyman85
    Master
    Insider
    Founder

    RARE, please think it over before you split the community for the next DLC: The Arena. PvP should actually take place in the open world itself (how it is now), and not extra in a separate part of the map. Maybe i'm wrong? Maybe we miss some details?

    See Solestoe563412's post: i couldn't agree more.

    @solestone563412 said in [Mega Thread] The Arena - Part 2:

    Bad idea and a Better Solution (post moved to this forum by request)

    1 It can’t compete on the market. Combat in SoT is clunky and a secondary element of the game. Not so in many other games where it is done with finesse.

    2 It splits the community. You may well play both, but you can’t be there and here at the same time.

    3 It takes resources away (time, energy, money) from the Devs improving SoT.

    4 It will hurt the regular game (see 2 and 3). SoT will be far less challenging and exciting when the "aggressive" Pirates are all sharpening their knives in the Arena lobby.

    5 We already have an Arena, it’s called the Sea of Thieves. Use it.

  • Spanjard
    Marauder
    Founder

    I agree with this, DONT DO IT RARE. SEA's are empty enough as it is and arenas split communicty.

    @rudyman85 said in [Mega Thread] The Arena - Part 2:

    RARE, please think it over before you split the community for the next DLC: The Arena. PvP should actually take place in the open world itself (how it is now), and not extra in a separate part of the map. Maybe i'm wrong? Maybe we miss some details?

    See Solestoe563412's post: i couldn't agree more.

    @solestone563412 said in [Mega Thread] The Arena - Part 2:

    Bad idea and a Better Solution (post moved to this forum by request)

    1 It can’t compete on the market. Combat in SoT is clunky and a secondary element of the game. Not so in many other games where it is done with finesse.

    2 It splits the community. You may well play both, but you can’t be there and here at the same time.

    3 It takes resources away (time, energy, money) from the Devs improving SoT.

    4 It will hurt the regular game (see 2 and 3). SoT will be far less challenging and exciting when the "aggressive" Pirates are all sharpening their knives in the Arena lobby.

    5 We already have an Arena, it’s called the Sea of Thieves. Use it.

  • Zexyony
    Captain
    Insider
    Founder

    @zormis said in [Mega Thread] The Arena - Part 2:

    As a PVE player I think the Arena is a great idea, it adds more flavor to the game and will keep players coming back. I don't understand the argument other PVErs make that they are not adding in anything for us when that's obviously not true.

    I use to play a PVPVE game and they had an arena that kept most of the PVP players focusing on that.

    Do you think it's great idea because all those pirates who is killing people to get that loot will leave and play in arena? :D

  • Zormis
    Marauder
    Insider

    @bundui Nope, I think it's a great idea because it adds more flavor to the game. I can't wait for the arena! Also I welcome PVPers coming at me which is why I tend to throw up my reapers flag.

  • Guepard4
    Captain
    Insider
    Founder

    @bundui dijo en [Mega Thread] The Arena - Part 2:

    @zormis said in [Mega Thread] The Arena - Part 2:

    As a PVE player I think the Arena is a great idea, it adds more flavor to the game and will keep players coming back. I don't understand the argument other PVErs make that they are not adding in anything for us when that's obviously not true.

    I use to play a PVPVE game and they had an arena that kept most of the PVP players focusing on that.

    Do you think it's great idea because all those pirates who is killing people to get that loot will leave and play in arena? :D

    All those pirates will continue playing both modes.
    At least I will do.

  • CoupledImp72
    Marauder
    Insider

    @skulliah Agreed... arena seems neat and all but, In order for my crew to want to login and pirate there has to be something to draw them. The more challenging to finish the better. New adventures Is what i need!
    However it does seem like the game has been having some MASS glitches .. im kinda worried by bringing in the arena the problems are just going to intensify and push me away from it. I only say that out of assumption. All the issues ive experienced as well as my crew and other community chats seemed to all have gotten worse since the last update.

  • Kloszo
    Master
    Insider

    I would love any type of ranking system on Arena :D

  • AWW HEALZ NO
    Marauder
    Insider

    Reading other peoples suggestions has really opened my eyes on what the community wants; however people are still missing the core behaviour of the game. Its a family game and an even game. A game that is well balanced and without unfair advantages (Cough Double gunners Cough) But I believe and suggest that the Arena will serve Sea Of Thieves' ability to continue to be a fair and well thought out planned game mode.

    The Arena however, should introduce a new type of ranking system, such as the ability to become a Pirate Legend.

  • Ikarusflug
    Marauder
    Insider

    I have not read the thread much, but i want to let you know that i hate the idea of a seperate arena-mode. You really shouldnt divide the community in this way. What i like about SoT is the vast map and that everyone on the Server plays in one immersive world. Please: Try to integrate the arena-thing in the world. It might be a bit harder then just going for a completly seperate mode, but it should be possible. I hope you know what your game and the PvP makes fun: That is an open world where everything can happen, its the combination of PvE and PvP that makes it special. PvP is not a must but only one possibility of an outcome. This make is exciting because you never know what happens next. I for my part dont need a special PvP-mode ala Fortnite or Battlefield, thats not fun for me. And what SoT makes special is not being a game like Fortnite, so dont try to make it to. Go new ways and keep the community together. If you are following this road any further I am afraid you wont have the success you wanna achieve. You will always have to question yourself then for what part of the community (arena or open world) you wanna develope content in the future and in the end no one will have enbough content. Look at it now: Because of Arena there is no new Bilgerat-adventure for weeks now. However: I really like the game and i hope you will make the right decisions.

    IF you really wanna have success you should start adding more stuff to the gameworld. Here are some tips:

    -improve the server-capacity
    -add arena to normal game mode, do not release it as a seperate mode
    -add social hubs to the world (big pirate city like tortuga where multiple crews can do things. Perhaps you can do this with phasing, so that the city is an own server where more then 6 Crews can have fun)
    -add different enemy-types to the game
    -improve combat gameplay
    -give us pets that can do something (perhaps a parrot who can carry one chest or something)
    -add daily/weekly Quests to the game and overall better storytelling
    -make the map hugher and let more Crews play on one server (long term goal). It would be cool if SoT would become a real pirate-MMORPG at some point.

  • Th3 Sly M0use
    Marauder
    Insider

    I love this idea. This gives each type of gamer there own realm. You have the grind and the heavy PVP. Sure there will still be fighting in the PVE areas but it will help PVP players always have ships to fight that will fight back. And PVE can sail a bit safer.

  • Nhaga2526
    Ship Mate
    Insider

    I might not know enough about the Arena mode yet or be too new to the game to make suggestions, but since it is a new game mode and the topic seems to be about whether or not it should be separated from the rest of the game; I personally think the best approach should be to include the Arena as a part of the world, and to me, to make it more than just a dangerous corner of the map, I think it should be a dynamic cloud event that appears somewhere like the skull forts.

    That way the people that prefer PVE can try to either avoid this area, or maybe take the risk to get close for their missions while PVP players will know where to go if they want to fight AND be rewarded for it.

    According to what the devs said about the mode, it will be a short session with a lot of action; so the cloud system could give an advantage to players that would be closer to it when it spawns so a solution could be to have a multiple step cloud :

    -First step, the cloud appears letting the people from the server know that the event will take place shortly giving them time to organize their crew and gather supplies.
    People could also decide whether or not they want to go there first and risk an early fight before the event starts, or keep their distance which would create tension near this area with people staring at each other with their spyglasses.

    -Second step, the cloud lights up and let people know that the event has started which would lead to a rush of people that were gathering around the area to participate to the event.

    -Third step, the cloud disappear, the event is over and everybody can continue playing without going back to a menu etc..

    That's literally the only way I can imagine this event working if it has to be part of the current SOT world without separations.

    Also, for people that keep suggesting that the server capacity should be increased; I disagree.
    To me, the game is about balacing PVE and PVP; the amount of crew per servers should be tied to the size of the world and at the moment it seems to be about the right amount so that people that want to PVE don't constantly have to worry about someone coming for them on the horizon; and if they do end up seeing someone it's actually a "Oh F**k" moment while people that are looking for PVP have area of interest marked by these clouds so that they know where to find other players.

  • RTCoaster1
    Marauder
    Insider

    I am looking forward to the Arena, because me and my crew mates are horrendous at PVP, and I am thinking and maybe this could help us to not only have a fun experience with PVP action in Sea of Thieves, but also help us work on that, without the use of double gunning.

  • treefittymonsta
    Ship Mate
    Insider

    I hope they allow me to solo queue. if not I'll just pvp like usualin adventure mode.

  • Zexyony
    Captain
    Insider
    Founder

    @ikarusflug said in [Mega Thread] The Arena - Part 2:

    -improve the server-capacity

    Everyone wants that, but no answer.

    -add arena to normal game mode, do not release it as a seperate mode

    I can't really see how this will work, only option is to make it separate mode + we pretty much have 0 information right now about arena, we should wait a little bit more to think how it should be implemented.

    -add social hubs to the world (big pirate city like tortuga where multiple crews can do things. Perhaps you can do this with phasing, so that the city is an own server where more then 6 Crews can have fun)

    This has been discussed A LOT and I believe it's not coming, because SOT is PVP everywhere, no save zones, but personally I would like to see something like tortuga.

    -give us pets that can do something (perhaps a parrot who can carry one chest or something)

    I don't think they will do that, pets already confirmed and will be probably as cosmetics and you will can buy them with microtransactions.

    -make the map hugher and let more Crews play on one server (long term goal). It would be cool if SoT would become a real pirate-MMORPG at some point.

    This game is not going to be MMO. Servers is just way too small for making it MMO.

  • ESD Jonasnz1
    Commander
    Founder

    For an upcoming patch/version.

    1. I would like to be able to name my ship, and repare to full glory at a shipwright. (Not have to scuttle and get new.)
      Also resupply at ports.

    This would let crews build a reputation based on the ship...
    Jolly Rodger, Queen Ann's Revenge, Mighty Tadpole, and so on.

  • RoastinCoffee
    Commander
    Insider
    Founder

    @rip-chongy said in [Mega Thread] The Arena - Part 2:

    I'm glad this game was made

    This is the only part of your comment I can agree with. Today's MEGA Update reveal IS being transparent. Rare could simply not say a single thing to us until release.

    Rare does a weekly dev update video (which they don't have to do) and they respond to the forums and reddit (which they don't have to do). Also - if you want more transparency about upcoming features, join the Insider Programme and play a build of upcoming features. You cannot get any more "transparent" then actually being able to play upcoming stuff. (This is also something Rare doesn't have to do).

    My personal opinion, with regards to transparency, we have nothing to be "concerned" about.

  • RoastinCoffee
    Commander
    Insider
    Founder

    @rip-chongy said in [Mega Thread] The Arena - Part 2:

    @roastincoffee
    So... Where's the video?

    Do you follow rare on Twitter? There is a login/server issue. I would rather see that fixed than getting the video posted. Just me though.

  • RoastinCoffee
    Commander
    Insider
    Founder

    Video up.

  • Haumeax
    Ship Mate
    Insider

    [Mod edited]

  • Imwrecker2902
    Ship Mate
    Insider

    does anyone else think that the arena should have given you the option of all three ship types instead of just a galleon? I was really hoping to play a game with just my friend. When we sail together we are extremely coordinated, We know exactly where everything is and what is going on. Without the option of the sloop in the arena we cant do any of this. I have enough friends to use the galleon but they are rarely all on at the same time. Plus we all live in different places so when one person gets on another has to go sleep. It never works out. Rare please allow us to use the other two ships in the arena.

  • MsBehaving67
    Insider

    OMG the Arena is nothing but laggy.

    Go to kill a player in front of me, next half a second I am out in the ocean miles from where I was. Players in front of you one sec, then behind you killing you, teleporting all over the place.

    This has got to be a joke this mode. Hopefully they addresss this lag really quickly.

    Another thingm when a ship sinks, you get stuck in the ship bad. The game thinks I am still walking on things, so when I tried to swim away from behind the captains desk, which I telported to from below deck, I was trying to swim past it and end up having to jump around to actually get past it.

    All I can say is this is a real bad experience and hopefully gets fixed real soon.

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