A return to civility

  • I started this post last night, a bit out of frustration, but more so to remind everyone that we are all equal, that we all have different ideas on how to make the game better (even if that means keep it the way it is now), but we are all passionate about SoT and the community. That passion can sometimes overwhelm us in good and bad ways. We sometimes need to remind ourselves that we are with friends and that how we treat them is important. It is ok to have friendly banter and if you know the other person well enough to bust their chops. But it should never get to insults or belittlement.

    What I am hopeful for is that this thread serves as a call to arms so to speak. Everyone that has read this thread and commented so far are names I recognize and see posting to these forums, for the most part, fairly regularly. Even if just those of us that have read this far put forth a stronger effort to be more like @Clumsy-George @Musicmee @KattTruewalker or the many others that we have been most fortunate to know, and for the most part try to infuse a positive vibe in these forums, then I believe we can help teach the newer generation how great these forums were and still can be.

    When we go to a new thread, even if we have seen the same topic over and over again. Take a minute and teach them how to search topics so they can find and add to an existing topic. Or, go ahead and comment on it as if it is the first time you are seeing it. But in all things do so with a positive, helpful attitude. If it is something you don't agree with, then debate it, but do so knowing the other person might just be having a bad day, or worse.

  • @nofears-fun This is a pirate forum! We need to fight, drink and fight again!
    Okay, I think I'm confusing things...

  • @nofears-fun said in A return to civility:

    When we go to a new thread, even if we have seen the same topic over and over again. Take a minute and teach them how to search topics so they can find and add to an existing topic.

    This suggestion kind of clashes with one of the weirder rules on this forum - you're not allowed to post on old threads (necro'ing). I assume there is a reason of some kind for that rule but I don't agree with it. I would rather see information, updates, etc... appended to existing topics than duplicate topics getting created.

  • Not trying to be a Debbie-Downer, but research has shown that most online forum communities eventually break-down due to trolls and excessive arguing and are either turned into ghost communities or simply removed entirely as result. I have been a member of enough online forum communities and witnessed their demise to know the truth of this.

  • Well, hopefully the forums will become respectable again.
    The real problem is certain people attacking the foundation of SoT.

  • @galactic-geek said in A return to civility:

    Not trying to be a Debbie-Downer, but research has shown that most online forum communities eventually break-down due to trolls and excessive arguing and are either turned into ghost communities or simply removed entirely as result. I have been a member of enough online forum communities and witnessed their demise to know the truth of this.

    Perhaps that forum will eventually become the exception? We can only hope at this moment.

  • edit:

    moved the post into a separate thread:

    https://www.seaofthieves.com/forum/topic/78869/forum-community-suggestions

  • @sir-lotus ^ this should be a whole new post of it's own, for the sake of better exposure.

  • @luciansanchez82 good point. on it.

  • @Sir-Lotus Perhaps it would be beneficial to the forums if a "slow-mode" was introduced. Newer users cannot create many new threads in quick succession until they have contributed enough to existing threads. So as soon as you join, you can start participating in open discussions freely, and can post maybe one new thread every hour or so (the numbers can be figured out by smarter people). I know a lot of reddit communities have something like this in place. Couple this with something along the lines of @Ktingaling's suggestion, where a dialog pops up asking you if you are sure you want to post a new topic because a thread with a similar title already exists and it might get a lot cleaner around here.

    I am never one to advocate for limiting discussion though and I don't want something like this to have a negative impact.

  • @galactic-geek said in A return to civility:

    Not trying to be a Debbie-Downer, but research has shown that most online forum communities eventually break-down due to trolls and excessive arguing and are either turned into ghost communities or simply removed entirely as result. I have been a member of enough online forum communities and witnessed their demise to know the truth of this.

    While I agree, to an extend because I have seen and been part of tons of communities as well, the ones that stick, stick because of valuable members that people look up to and leadership that kept everyone in check.

    It was usually a mix between community mods and respected members that got some recognition by the community’s leaders that kept a tight lid. Respected members were active posters, great helpers and would be a positive force.

    We don’t have great leadership here. Honestly, things have gone worse since Kbot left. Then there’s the entire Boatswain debacle. Boy were we spat out when we got this badge. So much envy going around over a stupid badge. Boatswains have become a lot more quiet, they had their own chat room on discord and that got taken away which felt gut wrenching.

    Trolls started taking over the forums: lots of duplicates, more of the same shouting about PvP and what not. On a solid community, respected members like the boatswains would advise you to follow the rules of the community and it would mean something. If you, as a new member, didn’t get the message then you would once you got your first proper warning and suspension. People were put in their place to keep things civilized and the “elders” would guide everyone into great discussions.

    We have that group of people that could guide the community, but it won’t happen without proper leadership doubling down on people following the code and getting rid of the stupid trolls.

  • @murkrage I get your point to an extent, but honestly I’m not to sure if more people with authority is the answer.
    I think we have more than enough people doing the great work to maintain the forums.
    After all we have all the deckhands, paid mods and quartermasters out there.

    I feel if there was any more it would just turn the forum worse. The current mods do an excellent job.
    I think what we need is just more positivity, the boatswains have been given the badge as a reward for there various contributions and helping members with various requests. Although I only seem to see a couple now, which is a shame because when they where first introduced they where everywhere offering advice suggestions amongst many other things.

    They where basically the unofficial mods with the power to kill with kindness.
    I personally feel that’s more than enough.
    To many cooks ruin the broth and all that aha.
    But it would be nice to see some return. I can only really think of like 5 or 6 out of the 30 odd who are actively around and helping now.

  • @knifelife don’t get me wrong, I am not talking about more people with authority. I am talking about good leadership. That means those currently having the authority need to be on the same page and make sure they are consistent about their decision making and way of posting.

    As for the Boatswains silently disappearing, that is the prime example of why good leadership is needed. Killing with kindness only goes so far. None if the boatswains have any actual power to do anything, but in the early days that didn’t matter because the community knew who they were and if they said something then it meant something.

    New players arrived, had an attitude on them: “who the bloody hell are you to tell me what I can’t or cannot do, these are public forums. Go away silly boatswain”. It gets tiring after a while so now most just lurk.

    Reality is that most, if not all, of the Boatswains are still here. We have gone a lot more silent simply because killing with kindness isn’t enough anymore and we got tired of being the ones to give a new member a friendly reminder to follow the code, only to get spit in the face. So now most of us are lurking, still playing the game and still keeping watch. Just not as vocal anymore.

  • @murkrage Wooooahh, woooahhh, wooahhh!

    I will still continue to kill with kindness... it's my only weapon of choice!

  • @musicmee very true, it’s your most fashionable weapon at that 👌🏻. But you’ve all grown up. You’re a big boy now, authority and all 😂

  • @murkrage I see your point, and get what your saying.
    I’m not really sure what the solution is to be honest.
    I guess that’s why some people didn’t accept the badge when it was offered as it can have its draw backs.

    The way I see the boatswains, they are basically the recruiting pool of people who could possibly become QMs or Deckhands. I always assumed it was given for one as a great work and a pat on the back and then secondly to see how people conduct themselves with that bit of extra power. (Even if there technically isn’t any)

    But yeah I’m rambling now but i do understand what you are saying. I’m sure we will have a new CM soon enough and those concerns what people have might be addressed then.

  • @knifelife said in A return to civility:

    I always assumed it was given for one as a great work and a pat on the back

    Correct, that is exactly what the Boatswains are about :), a pat on the back for exceptional community work. I still feel that responsibility of being an exemplary community member, just a little less than before.

  • @nofears-fun I agree with civility 100% understanding even if parties disagree and arguing both sides.
    I don't expect others to stop attacking Idiocracy. People who complain about being sunk with treasure on board, baseball hats to be added, and gps at the ship's wheel. Can't help the few...

  • @murkrage @KnifeLife i think both of your conversation kind of leads into something I think is needed. A little bit of new blood at the various positions. Even if nothing more than to sort of shake the place up a bit. Wake up the old salts that have gone somewhat silent. Induce some new energy. Doesn’t even have to be a lot of new blood. Just an infusion.

    But most importantly we need that kbot replacement. Someone that can help offer some focus and direction.

    Also I think it is a shame the boatswain chat was taken away. How else do you all get together to make sure everyone is on the same page? I would think there would be a chat like that along with others in leadership.

  • It also needs to go back to a time where people who subvertly tried derailing threads with off-topic comments to drag ANOTHER discussion of overly talked about topics back into the front of ANY conversation were dealt with...
    It just muddies the waters even more!

  • @nofears-fun You can make group chats through the forum chat system. Most people are unaware of that, although I doubt it would be the same aha.

    Maybe they got rid of it because the conversation was being detracted from the forums and going into the chat. When in reality I suppose you would want those badges flashing around the forums as much as you can.

    I dunno just my guess anyway.

  • @natiredgals

    Ahoy there, as your post isn't really in line with the discussion ongoing in this thread I've deleted it.

    If you wish to join the discussions around cross play there are several threads available which can be found using the search function :)

    Spamming, Baiting and Trolling
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    These actions can be and are not limited to:

    Creating threads, posts and content for the sole purpose of causing unrest
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    Ignoring the warning will result in a temporary ban from the Forums and a final warning. If the action continues, a permanent ban from the Forums will be issued.

  • @katttruewalker not sure how my post was off topic. This post is about returning the fourm to civility right? Most post about cross-play are what is causing the Civil unrest in the fourms. Thats all i was saying. Not trying to derail anything.

  • @NoFears-Fun I've been reading a lot of the threads in the forums and I haven't really seen a lot of the toxicity you have spoke of. Now I have seen some trolling here and there but not really any toxicity, and no I do not see trolling and toxicity as the same thing.

    One thing I do know is that mods on this forum have a heavy hand. Curse words aside, they seem to come down on a lot of things that don't need it. Now it could be done as a preventative nature, but I don't understand what is wrong about a heated exchange of personal opinions and views about the game.

    There is nothing wrong with having a discussion that gets tempers up, or have people trying to best the other with logical or even metaphorical means. I myself never take things emotionally or personally. So it could just be that I don't actually understand what you all are going through but honestly, I don't even know if its worth understanding since its just words used in a forum for discussion. Discussions are not flowers and spring time.

    So I believe the moderators are still there.....trust me....I KNOW THEY ARE. Its like they read my posts instantly. However, I do not see what you are talking about.

    EDIT Another reason why some regard to civility is a bad thing when having a discussion is that when emotions are controlled you can't get to the bottom of what a person really means. Sometimes people try to hide the true meaning of what they want behind sophisticated philosophy. Get them riled up enough or angry enough and they start to let things slip on how they really feel.

  • I feel the problem is partly because those who are civil and contribute a lot get made moderators.

    Stay with me, I've been here before on other forums and streams where I became mod.

    The thing is, once you become moderator you are under a spotlight. You are representing a company to a degree and have to adhere to standards.

    It's also work, usually unpaid and underappreciated. It's a responsibility not a privilege (as some would think). That adds up to you being less likely to post your own opinions on most matters, you can no longer skim the line, you have to stay behind it.

    I have nothing but respect for anyone here who has to moderate the forums, you're doing a great job,

    Where that factors into the toxicity increasing is that it only takes the removal of one or two level-headed chilled and respected people to lower the overall tone of a forum.

    This is why I always tell streamers not to mod everyone in chat they like or who contributes. Sure, let them know they are appreciated and they are an important part of the community, but it's often as important to have good people chatting who are not mods.

  • @xultanis-dragon

    The forum is a platform where we encounter a very diverse groups of pirates, young and old, english as a second language, varied cultures and backgrounds we're going to see a range of skill in discussion and debating points.

    I'd argue that for the most part, once someone feels personally attacked, insulted or belittled, which will happen if you deliberately provoke someone for their opinion, quite often any composure goes out the window and often we see discussions descend into insults, name calling or other baiting.

    It is very hard for most pirates to take a step back from the keyboard once this is in progress.

    As a result we have the forum rules and try and prevent this from happening.

    Perhaps what we need is less emotion but more empathy.

  • @katttruewalker said in A return to civility:

    @xultanis-dragon

    The forum is a platform where we encounter a very diverse groups of pirates, young and old, english as a second language, varied cultures and backgrounds we're going to see a range of skill in discussion and debating points.

    I'd argue that for the most part, once someone feels personally attacked, insulted or belittled, which will happen if you deliberately provoke someone for their opinion, quite often any composure goes out the window and often we see discussions descend into insults, name calling or other baiting.

    It is very hard for most pirates to take a step back from the keyboard once this is in progress.

    As a result we have the forum rules and try and prevent this from happening.

    Perhaps what we need is less emotion but more empathy.

    What this person said ^^

    Best line ever Perhaps what we need is less emotion but more empathy.

  • @katttruewalker said in A return to civility:

    @xultanis-dragon
    It is very hard for most pirates to take a step back from the keyboard once this is in progress.

    This is litrally me in a nutshell, wish it wasn’t and I try my best not to fall into but alas I’m human and make mistakes.
    Suppose i just need to try and learn abit more from them and grow myself.

  • @katttruewalker said in A return to civility:

    @xultanis-dragon

    The forum is a platform where we encounter a very diverse groups of pirates, young and old, english as a second language, varied cultures and backgrounds we're going to see a range of skill in discussion and debating points.

    I'd argue that for the most part, once someone feels personally attacked, insulted or belittled, which will happen if you deliberately provoke someone for their opinion, quite often any composure goes out the window and often we see discussions descend into insults, name calling or other baiting.

    It is very hard for most pirates to take a step back from the keyboard once this is in progress.

    As a result we have the forum rules and try and prevent this from happening.

    Perhaps what we need is less emotion but more empathy.

    This is what the subreddit dedicated to this game has been like the last few days and I am hoping for both there and here it is a burst trend that will die out once we get Arena setup then the event and update after that to play. Just too much drama to deal with.

    I say this since there has be this war all of a sudden that has surged up between certain pvp oriented people and those that want to take breaks on the occasion from constant pvp with alliance based sessions (I am not going to mention the persons name as you already know whom is the root of it) and really its just been getting on my nerves since they can't decide what to upvote and what to downvote at all anymore.

  • I think it is unfortunate when communities centered around a game latch onto the official forum for the game developers. I only say this because I've seen it happen too many times, where a community is built, despite the conflict of interest that exists.

  • @nofears-fun I think the forums have gotten a lot better. I finally put the flag business way in the past and eagerly await new game features!

  • @dutchdeadschot

    I seems to come & go as the ebb of the tide.
    People can get very excited about new features, or in their eyes broken mechanics from time to time.

    As along as we can all step back, take a moment & a deep breathe.
    Then engage in respectful & civil discussion, we'll all be Gucci!

    After-all it's a great game, and we all love it... why else would we care so much & continue to play the game?

    We're not a bad lot, we just all have our moments. ( I include myself )
    Respect the individual with their contrary opinion.
    You don't have to respect their viewpoint, just respect the person & their right to say it.
    Obviously... if it doesn't break any rules... hence the existence of the Pirate Code :)

  • Was that thread necroed?
    If so, then sorry, but it was in my list of recent topics.

    First thing is to remind some gamers of beeing polite if they speak about others.
    So if l.m.f.a.o is auto censored why not phrases like noob and carebaear?
    @PDT-Mindstream posted in a "worst change, SoT will die soon" thread that threads contain an insult to other players arent worth the time, but to type the message that they arent worth the time reading it.

    If you allow certain people to talk like this, posting statements of the quality of some populist politicians then you need not wonder that a lot of others reply on this level of quality.

    "We all hate this..."
    "Everyone wants that..."
    "Because of some [mod edit] who want everything handed without effort..."
    "Noobs..."
    Btw in my Dojo i learned to respect Beginners and to take care for them because of practical use. I "need" them and all the others for my personal training.
    Some act as if Beginners or unexperienced players aka Noobs are not welcome! And as if there opinion is worthless.
    A lot of gamer elitism has become normal, like certain politicians make rude speach socially acceptable.
    10 or more years ago a TV moderator talked about the role of women and mother during the 2nd WW and said not all was bad what N...s did.
    A [mod edit] beyond compare was born.
    Today we are used to have politicians and others in media who use N..i jargon and phrases like it's nothing special. They managed it to make a lot of this socially accepted again.
    Noob or carebaear is often not recognized as an insult, but it is an insult!
    I'm nor a noob, neither a carebaear, i'm a player first of all and even if i dont be successfull like others i'm not new or a newbie and for sure not a noob what is considered to be someone who is new and unwillig or unable to learn.
    Carebaear is defined as slightly derogative for someone focussing at pve and avoiding pvp and for sure only used by the strongest, the best, the ultimative better and way more important gamers who pvp.
    See this recent discussion about "Worst change ever blabla" as if a Streamer and some hardcore gamers are the measure and role modes for all of us - what btw is also an insult if you want me to come down to the level of some streamers, oh my.
    I dont care if others make a fool of themself, but i am not like them and i dont want to get compared or on the same level with them.
    As if they and only they are "worth" to listen too.
    I recommend Rare to try to get some feedback from those who arent that loud and egotistical.
    Most players avoid forums.
    My friends laugh at me if i say i partake in forums.
    They say forums are only used by many insults here and wise people play the game and have fun and if it's not fun anymore they quit without a word, without complains and the need to tell the world they quit.

    I understand that games sometimes leave you emotionally agitated.
    I'm not perfect and i also make mistakes and got triggerd, but some pull the trigger and aim at you in their first sentence and it's hard to not to react if someone in front of you talks bs right in your face.
    But i also become wiser and just stop reading forums and most often dont even reply, but sometimes i got triggerd of cause.
    The best thing you and we who are loyal fans of Sea if Thieves is to post neutral, making suggestions, post positive stuff we experienced ingame and if we feel the need to say something critic this needs to be constructive and not emotionally loaded and full of hate, accusations and personal attackings.

    But as i said, the trend is old and so many are already used to use degorative language, insult others, dont care for the one who we speak to.
    It's hard if not impossible to reverse this.
    And if Botswains like @Murkrage or people like myself say they dont post that much anymore because of toxicity and such then they win like the Nazis won back in the days and to get rid of them you can see it all over the world of today is much, much harder.
    Resist the beginnings
    "Nip it in the bud"
    we have already failed to do that.

    Stop these elitists who insult others and speak as if they have the monopoly of truth and allways imply to speak for a majority.
    Everybody speak for him- or herself.

    As long as we allow some self proclaimed expert to spew their "truth" into everybodys face while they at the same time insult them and politely say you are just a noob and you have no clue, but i have because i am so dedicated and the only one who can safe SoT and the whole gaming industry just do what i want, because i pay you and i am the most loyal, expert and dedicated gamer. As long as we allow this, the trend will go on.

    Welcome to meritocracy aka performance focused society, where those who "perform" the best dictate the rules.

    Btw if performance would be measures on real work, well... then i'd not against it, but we talk about to perform the best hippocrisy!

  • @bugaboo-bill
    Yeah, the issue of people with certain plastyle preferences believing, and gaslighting communities to believe, that other types of playstyles are inferior is a sad problem.

    In the post you mentioned of mine, I said:

    @pdt-mindstream said in Killing a game, more than ever:

    Anyone that uses "casuals" and "PvE" as imagined insults gets no more time than this post required to type.

    Rare is doing a great job and many are LOVING the changes. The developers aren't being swayed by any groups of players... they make the game they want to make. Anyone that can't understand that, doesn't get it. I hope, one day, you might get it - whether or not the product is to your liking.

    Hopefully my post isn't seen as having a lack of civility. I can't abide by this surge of attacks against other customers who are having fun at zero expense of anyone else.
    And, yes, there has definitely been a person with, seemingly, a bit too much influence on a large amount of people (more influence than the person's wisdom/ego seems to be able to handle well - IMHO) and they've labeled an enemy and too many people have fallen for it. Seems to be a champion for the impetuous amongst us.
    Anyway, I'm skirting the line, lol (at least, of my own standards), but, I agree that sometimes you need to fight back (albeit always with civility).

    All in all... I believe this will pass. This game is too special, the team at Rare too wholesome and passionate, and the love we all have for the game is too strong for the typical gamer nonsense to drag us all down. Those who don't love the way the game goes will leave, and those who truly relate to what the developers are doing, will remain and maintain a great community.

    Just my thoughts!
    Fair seas!!

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