Forsaken Shores ... thoughts and issues thus far -- and where do we go from here?

  • I am a very vocal person when it comes to my opinion of this game. I will be pretty vocal here as well. I am also sure that this will bring on the arguing, and trolls, and whatever. Unfortunately, my feelings here are more positive than you will leave here believing. I just think a lot needs to be said to get the "upswing" that this game so desperately needs right now. Here is what I think of this update so far, and where I believes things need to go in the future.

    For starters, hats off to Rare as this update is looking great so far in terms of stability and bugs. I did not notice anything serious introduced in terms of bugs with this new update. In spite of all of the complaining about this update, hats off to you for that.

    It is good to see one of the "con" cosmetics in-game, but I am a little torn on that because that really makes "exclusives" pretty worthless...but we have all seen that people just whine like the dickens because they don't get something (including me with the skeleton torso that is coming soon lol).

    I have noticed a few times that rowboats I am watching people maneuver around in seem to be popping up out of the water. That could be visual because of my graphics settings, and this is definitely not an issue for me. I just thought I would mention it.

    A bit more serious, we did a total of 7 Gold Hoarders missions, but only got credit towards the commendation for four. This needs to be fixed obviously.

    I hear animals on the island, but they really feel devoid of life in spite of the ambient sounds. Hopefully that will be rectified at some point. It seems like this would have been a good time and place to introduce little non-interact-able crabs that run around...even if it were just one per island.

    The volcanoes are great. I still think that there are issues with targeting on sloops. We have sailed all but the galleon at this point, and the sloop just feels like it gets RAILED in comparison to the brigandine. At skull forts it definitely gets hit more than the brigandine and the galleon, and this needs to be addressed. I am assuming that to handled targeting the skeletons (and volcanoes) target a radius around the ships...and the sloops just is so much smaller they end up being a much tighter target. It is true though, if you don't believe it I challenge you to just sail past an active skull fort closely with each boat and watch how many holes you get. The same thing happens with volcanoes... so I feel sorry for anyone who is sailing solo, or even duo with this content.

    That being said, though, for the people complaining that this is too hard... OMG stop it. Stay in the other area until you feel like you can handle this then. We lost a single sloop to this just trying out the different boats in the zone. We lost nothing during the time that we were actually playing except for two rowboats.

    The geysers killing you? Carry bananas and eat them.

    Getting sunk by the island? Play smart... watch for smoke coming from the top. If itt isn't there you are safe. If it starts coming out RUSH to your boat and get away fast. This is pretty basic survival in this zone, but you were told up front that the content was harder than the pre-existing zone.

    On that note, this "content"...sorry but this is not new content. I am really liking the way it turned out...but this is not going to be enough for people who are letting the game "hinge" on this update. This is the same thing we have been doing since day one, which is not a lot. Orange cannonballs that fall from the sky are not new. Geysers are kind of new...but nothing spectacular, and once you have seen them...well, you have seen them. In fact, once you have seen all of these things once, you are basically done with it. If this update is the "dealbreaker" for some players...then it is probably pretty broken at this point.

    I definitely see some quality improvements in the work Rare put into this update... but what is needed is a direction improvement. We are still moving laterally in terms of gameplay. The core loop is still the same. Nothing new was added there.

    There is still nothing new for pirate legends (except, lol, it just got easier to level Athena's...you just do it in the new zone and have less voyages while you do them...ie, no merchants. this is the new cheese). I don't know why merchant was excluded in this zone with this update, but that was a mistake. Almost every streamer is doing nothing but running Athenas right now...and all of them are talking about how much "easier these are". Please work very hard in the future to not leave things out that make progressing in the game faster.

    If you want to add a new way to accomplish something, don't cut actual time to accomplish it out. You can make it so you can do the same amount of work in the same amount of time in shorter sessions... but things like the "missing merchant" and commendation letters just serve the purpose of feeding the cheese that people complain about constantly, and as a company make you look pretty sloppy. Focus on polish, a lot of polish... shine each build until you can spot it sitting on the beach from a ship without having to use a looking glass.

    Overall though, I will repeat that this is a big "hats off to Rare" for this update. It is really good, and was a small step (even though I am sure this took a huge amount of work) in the right direction... just a lateral step. Without a doubt, there is a level of quality we have not seen yet come with any other update present here. Hopefully everyone can see and appreciate that.

    My suggestion for the future would be that you start looking at full-time and full-team passes on the server and client to work on stability and resource management. Get those to a point that adding new features does not break things, cause stability issues, or require things be disabled for the sake of a new feature. At the same time there needs to be another team looking into forwarding the existing core-loop of the game. The repetition involved in fetch quests (and it doesn't matter what we are fetching) are going to drive people insane... or just out of the game. It has already happened, and that needs to change. Do ANYTHING different...and I mean different. Cargo runs are NOT different. Picking up "ashen" versions of the same thing are not different.

    There was a post about how pets would "save this game"...in a way that is true, as silly as that may seem to a lot of us. Provided you put your art team to work and get pets released in a timely fashion, that is. If you get pets pumped out at a rate of one every two or three weeks not only would your revenue begin to rise again, but people would be interested even though they were vanity items. As silly as that may seem, people like those things. If you start adding things like a tracked achievement for collected pets, again you add a goal for people to work towards... It does not have to be multiple achievements...if you had 13 pets in-game, you would track that the player had XX of 13.

    Stop listening to suggestions about things like banjos that take a lot of work (recording tracks for every song) and focus on things you can put into the game rapidly, like a new shanty. Go back to doing weekly content updates... you can record a new public domain shanty (like Flight of the Valkyries) in one, two, or three week's time and get it in-game and make a lot of people happy. It is not game-changing, and could be done every month or so. Once you do that a few times, you have had time to add a way to select a shanty to play, which makes a lot of other people who have made that request.

    Start doing things like making use of your fantastic music director. When I loaded into the game today met with a new title screen and got the same-old, same-old song playing...it just made it all feel flat out of the gate. Just taking an instrumental version of the song from the trailer would have brought that opening up by leaps and bounds. Loading into a bit of styled-textual logo for Forsaken Shores with the same-old Sea of Thieves title track just made it feel dull.

    The biggest things though, is really start to focus on the client and server and making sure that you have robust engines for both that won't just fall to pieces every time you make changes to them -- AND, immediately start working on revamping the core-loop of the game. People do not buy games so they can "create" the game themselves. If they could handle creating their own fun, they wouldn't buy games...let's be totally honest. lol. I have no doubts that people will read that and immediately be offended, and I could care less...but it is absolutely true. The whole reason you purchased this game was to be entertained by it -- not so you could sit around and entertain yourself in it.

    Unfortunately, I do not feel I have given enough praise to you, Rare, in this post. While I recognize that a lot went into this update, I do not see it as being "game-changing" in the way that people want it to be. There is a definite spike in players right now... You won't ever tell us what the playerbase actually consists of, but it is evident in stream viewership right now...and I am sure that within a months time we will see that decline back to where it was before this week. I see the work that went into this, but you have to get away from the lateral moves, and start moving in a progressive manner.

    Here are some key points that I know need to be thought about:

    The game world is beautiful.

    The bare mechanics of the game are beautiful.

    Player-to-player ombat mechanics are pretty bare and sometimes wonky.

    Ship-to-ship combat mechanics were perfect -- and you changed them with cursed cannonballs. They are still okay, but I have no idea why that needed adjusting.

    The core-loop and progression are dreadful, boring, and tedious.

    End-game is easily obtainable by anyone willing to put in time and effort, but you made it overly easy because people who weren't willing to do that complained... basically insulting everyone who came before them. Not only that, but it was a totally pointless move, because it is still the exact same core gameplay, and there is nothing at the end of it anyway.

    You literally dropped your internal plans in favor of what the masses were asking for...which led you down a path of creating problems. This also cut your a planned revenue stream in the form of microtransactions, which I honestly thing would drive some interest in the game from a certain type of gamer. This also led to non-cohesive gameplay and lore. We have things like thrones and mermaid statues...but why, exactly? Why are those statues there? They showed up, there was a cursed...but we never saw the entities that placed them. We never had to deal with that. It makes very little sense to have such a pointless campaign and go nowhere with it. Even if you go back to it months down the road... there is no cohesion to tie it back to the statues at that point.

    I know you don't want to hand-hold people and take them on "their story"...but there has to be in-game story as well. Not just lore...but it makes perfect sense that there would be some form of NPC quest system in game, and a story to go with it. Even if you rolled out short quests that came every two or three weeks that would be new content that everyone would be doing. Start using those print comic books and the people that create those to work on something like that. Just because in-game stories exist doesn't mean we are not creating our own.

    I can't believe that one of the center-pieces for this update is a group of people wearing necklaces. In a game where cosmetics are the only form of real progression you implemented that for NPC's and not for players. Our gear should be broken down so much that we should be choosing things like hat pins, lapel pins, cuff links, hat feathers... we should be spending all of our gold on things to wear. More cosmetic choices should be going into this game than "a set per big patch/content update".

    I know this was long...and I wish I had some way to put more OOMPHFFFF into the praise I want to give Rare for the work that went into this update. It does feel a lot better than previous updates...the promise of higher difficulty is there. It is definitely possible to play in this new area with a little though and on-the-fly planning and reaction. This does add some difficulty and fun to the game for the time being.

    Again, HATS OFF TO RARE for the time being. Hopefully we will not start to move away from the horizontal changes to the game and start moving up.

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  • @aod-fluid
    That is the largest thread on a forum I have ever read (because its amazing) and I made it right to the end!
    Very well said, the passion speaks for itself and I totally agree.
    Bravo to you!

  • i don't read

  • You dont need to praise the devs constantly to make your point across, as if you are afraid people on the forum will hate you for being a critic, but Im not forbidding it.

    Firstly, this is feedback, this is how every feedback thread should look like in my opinion, well thought complaints, praises, critiques and comments about the update. You did go on a tangent about the game as a whole which detracted from the initial criticism of the update itself and shifted the focus to Rare overall update policies, which I think was unecessary but at least it helped us understand your point of view in regards to why you like the update the way you do. Overall I do believe that the criticisms here are valid.

    Microtransactions are a double edged sword but even so are a necessary evil, I do think that once they are introduced the game price should drop a lot more or get more sales to drive the game to be more accesible.

    Challenge and change is good, the volcanos are annoying but they are not insurmountable odds. All it takes is some getting used to, once again knee jerk reactions from the community might dumb down the systems, but I am always here to be the voice of reason (or the voice of disdain).

    I am unsure about how the sloop is, perhaps there is an unecessary amount of target firing on the sloop compared to other vessels, but perhaps its annecdotal, one may actually play the whole update on a sloop whiout getting hit, while another may be up in smugglers bay and still be getting hit.

    There needs to be high emphasis on polish, netcoding issues are a nightmare to deal in multiplayer games, jiterring or desyncs or stuttering are all caused by conflics between the client and the server, which the daves have little control over. Even big games like overwatch struggle whenever ping does some slight variation, suddenly bullets stop doing what they are supposed to...

    As for the critique to sound design, I do have a complaint here, the ambient sound of the islands is often poluted by multiple noises of geysers, volcanos and earthquakes, it does make it a bit of an ugly combination, but overall all the music cues that were added are flavourful and satifactory.

    Finally, I would like to encourage people to learn from OP, I do love me some long texts to read and enjoy, however you dont need to write 20 paragraphs to impress me, be concise and try to sound intelectual, because if the start of your post begins with "ded game, worst update, remove x thing, game tooo hard" you already have plummeted into the garbage bin, where I put all the unwanted mistakes of life.

  • @timboagogo said in Forsaken Shores ... thoughts and issues thus far -- and where do we go from here?:

    @aod-fluid
    That is the largest thread on a forum I have ever read (because its amazing) and I made it right to the end!
    Very well said, the passion speaks for itself and I totally agree.
    Bravo to you!

    Thank you... I appreciate that.

  • @shurthugal said in Forsaken Shores ... thoughts and issues thus far -- and where do we go from here?:

    Hi.

    I have also made it to the end.
    First of I have to agree that this is by far the longest and most passionate post I have ever read. And I don't think that the overall tone of your post is negative. You expressed your opinion and explained your criticism. What better kind of feedback could you wish for?

    I was trying not to seem too negative. So much of what I post here is pointing out why Rare needs to stop listening to players, or stop doing this or that... or why things like commendations are just insulting to people who have worked to the end already, etc...

    That's not to say that I agree with you on all of your points or rather see them as negative points. I'm just gonna comment on a few points.

    We don't have to agree. That is the cool thing about being a socialized species. We can even disagree and still get along. I disagree with TONS of what @PersonalC0ffee says, but I have never felt like I just "disliked" him. Quite the opposite, he has made me rethink a lot of what I have said in the past. There are several people here like that.

    About the lateral direction of added content. Yes this update added nothing really new in terms of core game-PROGRESSION mechanics. Notice the word in capital letters. What it did add however is the rowboat. Yeah you might say that adds nothing to the game in terms of usability. And I have to admit that I myself haven't quite figured out how to use it. But it does add so much in terms of roleplaying as a pirate and I can't stress this enough. It may be just a simple addition but if you want to have fun with your friends and fool around a little, I think this little boat is one of the best things they have added so far.

    I do see the value in the rowboat, just as I see value in vanity pets, which I mentioned. The problem I have with that (both of them) is that neither of them is valuable to me. I don't play like that. I don't really care that much about rowboats. Every time we have tried to use one it was destroyed. I also don't care about vanity pets... but I have seen in other games how "booming" they were for people who were into them. I would imagine the rowboat was the same for roleplayers.

    While I totally disagree that there needs to be "PvE" and "PvP" servers, I have thought it would be great if Rare added "RP" and "Normal" queues... At least to try to get the roleplayers together whenever possible. The PvPvE aspect needs to remain regardless...and is an entirely different discussion that never needs to be had. lol. I know the roleplay discussion isn't what we are having here, but you mentioned it...and I thought it might be a good time to point out that vanity pets are not even something I care about, and neither are a new shanties...but I see them as strong content points for a lot of people that can be added quickly and should not be ignored.

    I'm no game programmer but have experience in a few coding languages. I imagine adding/changing huge parts to/of the main code does take time. Which brings me to another point. Why not give them some time? They do add little things here and there mostly every week, so stating that there is nothing to do is not entirely correct. You may argue that the mermaid event was pointless and I would probably agree with you on that. But it gave you something to do. Yes there was no reasoning behind the appearance of them but it was one of the first events for the game, we gave them feedback about those things (replayability, lore, ...), let's see how or if they implement events in the future.

    Because there is a way to code, and there is a way to not code. You can add a framework for something like a mermaid statue that makes implementing the same type of lame repeatable content something that you can literally just plug in. You are no longer "editing" the code-base itself...you are dropping in assets, maybe inserting some data into JSON files, or a database...and new things go live once the new assets are pushed to the client. I have never looked at the way this game is coded, and obviously know nothing about the server side of things... but there are ways to do things to make it so that when you want to do something similar in the future... you don't have to touch the code again.

    Using mermaid statues as our example... if "go out and destroy these" is our "event"... then we can do that with a single core codebase... and if we ever want to do another "go out and destroy these" event, even if it is something completely other than mermaid statues...let's say we have to go and destroy those skeleton thrones that Rare forced us to sit in and look silly, we could literally use the same code that was written for mermaid statues... if you aren't developing with reusable code, you are doing it wrong.

    It does take time to write code, but it does not take as much time as you think if your processes are good up front. It does take time to test, test again, correct, and retest. If you have good development practices (source control, communication, not too many "committee meetings", etc) time is not the issue. What we have that is taking time is a set of engines (both client and server) that while seeming polished, have the taste of feeling rushed. What do I mean by that?

    Well, we added skeleton ships... but we had to disable the skeleton forts, and the kraken.

    Obviously, there were some problems. The server only has at max 24 players. It has a lot to do, but servers are pretty powerful now... are these running on potatoes? Or... did we do things like cross-up variable names, or is our code so poorly planned and written that resource management is an issue? That goes into dedicated a team to focus solely on going through both the client and server to do clean-up, optimization, and resource management passes... If they are threading process improperly, now is the time to fix it...not after they jam 900 new features into the game because "the players demanded it".

    And lastly about the story. This game is conceptualized to develop over the next however many years. They sure have thought out some interesting lore for the universe. But that also will take time to be told. On that note though, I don't know how much or what of the new update you have played but if I haven't missed anything they may have included one of the biggest cliffhangers in a video game i have ever seen. I will obviously not go into detail about it but I'm so hooked right now. Sure it may be achieved in a very devious way but still I can't wait to find out more about this universe and its history. And isn't that exactly what you want from a good story?

    I already pointed out that everything they have added thus far has been a cliffhanger... mermaid statues, a curse -- but we were supposed to stop it...yet it never stopped (until Rare had to either disable it for Forsaken Shores, or inadvertently broke it when they released Forsaken Shores). The entire "mermaid" campaign just went stale. The story dried up...with no end. That isn't a cliffhanger? If they go back to it now, there is no cohesion. It had no substance to begin with, what would be the point? They may be adding "content"...but it's bad content. Not all of it... but the bulk of it up to this point has literally been as I said before -- ankle deep, which is what the core-loop of the game is also -- ankle deep.

    This game needs serious vertical movement in a positive direction, and serious vision from someone.

    That was also rather long but I felt I needed to say that.

    I appreciate the response! This is the type of conversation that I enjoy having. Someone who is not afraid to think, respond, and not afraid to be critical without just trying to be insulting.

  • @urihamrayne said in Forsaken Shores ... thoughts and issues thus far -- and where do we go from here?:

    You dont need to praise the devs constantly to make your point across, as if you are afraid people on the forum will hate you for being a critic, but Im not forbidding it.

    Oh believe me, I get a lot of hate for things I say on this forum. People like to read intent and emotion in plain-text wherever it makes them feel pain so that they feel justified when they start tossing out insults. I have no idea why.

    Firstly, this is feedback, this is how every feedback thread should look like in my opinion, well thought complaints, praises, critiques and comments about the update. You did go on a tangent about the game as a whole which detracted from the initial criticism of the update itself and shifted the focus to Rare overall update policies, which I think was unecessary but at least it helped us understand your point of view in regards to why you like the update the way you do. Overall I do believe that the criticisms here are valid.

    The reason for that is because it is important to the overall state of the game. Rare has even admitted that their in-house practices need to be evaluated and revised. It was also stated on three occasions on Twitter posts that in-regard to the new "barrel" UI that people that should have seen it did not look at it before release, it was not ready to be released, and that they did not have time to review pioneer complaints before release. It is important to the positive progression of the game that these things be addressed... so I included them.

    Microtransactions are a double edged sword but even so are a necessary evil, I do think that once they are introduced the game price should drop a lot more or get more sales to drive the game to be more accesible.

    Honestly, in spite of what people claim this games player base is... if this game had microtransactions...I think pretty quickly it would expand beyond pets and that the game would go free-to-play, or at least partial free-to-play. This game is NOT as healthy as people like to believe. Overall, I see the game as a great place for Rare to start. The problem is, I only see it as a start even 6 months after launch. Even when I am sitting at the end...at Athena 10... I am doing EXACTLY what I was doing 6 months ago.

    Challenge and change is good, the volcanos are annoying but they are not insurmountable odds. All it takes is some getting used to, once again knee jerk reactions from the community might dumb down the systems, but I am always here to be the voice of reason (or the voice of disdain).

    The complaints about how hard this new area was began almost as soon as this update went live. I don't know how some people don't just realize they aren't ready...and stick to the other area until they feel like they are...or just realize maybe I haven't figured that out...let's try again!.

    I am unsure about how the sloop is, perhaps there is an unecessary amount of target firing on the sloop compared to other vessels, but perhaps its annecdotal, one may actually play the whole update on a sloop whiout getting hit, while another may be up in smugglers bay and still be getting hit.

    I don't play on a sloop much. We used to play on a galleon 100% of the time. Now we play on a brig a lot. Both of those ships get hit a lot less than the sloop. The sloop has a tiny target radius. There is a streamer named xShumbax on Twitch. I had the same discussion with him...he gets what I am putting down. Seriously, approach a skull fort on a sloop and you will get it. I noticed it when Rare did the "nerf" on skeleton cannoneers. The galleon definitely stopped getting hit as much, but the sloop started getting hit a lot more.

    There needs to be high emphasis on polish, netcoding issues are a nightmare to deal in multiplayer games, jiterring or desyncs or stuttering are all caused by conflics between the client and the server, which the daves have little control over. Even big games like overwatch struggle whenever ping does some slight variation, suddenly bullets stop doing what they are supposed to...

    Where to begin with this. There were some things I wanted to get into with my post that I just wanted to avoid because it was already long enough. I talked about "player-to-player combat" though... and netcode and hit registration is a HUGE part of that. It goes so deep though... the core mechanics of swordplay are just flat and bare. Gunplay is just janky in contrast to swordplay. We have one gun that can kill with a single shot that almost every tween runs around wielding. There is no real "strategy" to bear. Skill plays a factor, but so many things can just throw skill out of the window in less than a second...be it lag, janky netcode, goofy hit registration, or the one-shot-blunder kill.

    As for the critique to sound design, I do have a complaint here, the ambient sound of the islands is often poluted by multiple noises of geysers, volcanos and earthquakes, it does make it a bit of an ugly combination, but overall all the music cues that were added are flavourful and satifactory.

    Oh my complaint is NOT about sound design. I may not have been clear about that. I take an anti seizure medication at night (for migraines, not seizures) and it leaves me pretty loopy. I really need to go back and read what I wrote, to be honest. My complaints about sound are that there are animals on the islands...you can hear them...but they are totally out of sight. The opening title screen (right when you launch the game) is totally flat...because it's just the same old Sea of Thieves song when you launch into the game. They should do these large updates with the music they use in the trailers.

    Finally, I would like to encourage people to learn from OP, I do love me some long texts to read and enjoy, however you dont need to write 20 paragraphs to impress me, be concise and try to sound intelectual, because if the start of your post begins with "ded game, worst update, remove x thing, game tooo hard" you already have plummeted into the garbage bin, where I put all the unwanted mistakes of life.

    lol...not going to respond to this, because I would anger people. :D

  • @aod-fluid what a perfect post. This is awesome use of the forum. Nicely articulated criticisms. Well thought out suggestions. & giving the immense credit to Rare where it's due. I've never been captivated by a game so deeply as I have with SOT. But there is surely room to grow, & game play to be improved.
    But most people probably aren't as patient or easily entertained as I am. So I see Rare's problem of trying to find that balance of bringing new content in, while not rushing & creating problems. I think when we finally get pets, fishing, & games that will add a lot to the gameplay. But even still, after a few weeks of that, people will still be back to complaining for more content. There has to be a balance & realization that they cant please everyone all the time. & it's usually the case that those complaining are more vocal, while those that are happy stay quiet. So it's always going to look worse on the forum than what the actual state of the game is.

  • @personalc0ffee I can agree, everything takes time...

  • @personalc0ffee said in Forsaken Shores ... thoughts and issues thus far -- and where do we go from here?:

    @aod-fluid And disagree we do, buddy.

    Like right now;

    I actually like your post. This is a very good, critical post and apart from the slight tangent, it flows quite nicely.

    I'll say that the biggest issue is the statement about progression and things to do. So the bulk of my reply is going to focus on that.

    Yes, we know. It doesn't add add to the core gameplay loop and it was never going to because those systems are still in development, guaranteed. On the live stream the other day they confirmed those systems ARE BEING developed but it is a DRASTIC amount of work and will take TIME. Now, I don't know exactly how long it is going to take but I"m going to go with the safe bet and say we will see these mid next year. If that sounds too long for you, then I'm sorry it is not. It is realistic software development turn around times and the reality of game design. It's something so many on this forum and in this game need to realize. It will take time to basically rip apart and change the very foundations of mechanics and when it happens the game is going to be changed forever as a result, I'm going to warn you right now some of it will be good and some if you aren't going to like.

    I have nothing but time, unless I keel over. I am older...lol. That said, I have written software since the 90s... I have worked on a game, but that was also in the 90s and our team fell apart because several of them went to Lionhead Studios for the Black and White series...which one gaming news site kind of predicted with the things we were doing at the time by saying that the biggest threat to our project was that too many of us would be hired out by game companies.

    I get that having to revamp existing systems would take a long time...Rare says they have "three teams" working on the game, with each focusing on something different. What twe don't know is how many people are on each team. Is it two people, 10 people? We don't know how long this revamp should take primarily because of that. In addition to that, depending on how well they coded the game in the first-place also plays a HUGE factor in how it gets reworked... does it all need to be rewritten? Can you add to what is there? I doubt they can add to what is there. That is not necessarily a bad thing, sometimes you just can't write reusable code. Those two variables can take that process and change it from days -- to weeks -- to months -- to yes, even years. Obviously it would not work in this case if "years" was the mark. A good source control system can help immensely with organizing and developing code in a team. I understand development times... but I have no way of even estimating what they should be in this case.

    When they finally add the crafting things they've been teasing, it's going to change the game.
    When they finally enrich the voyage systems, it is going to change the game.
    When they finally give us that tease of what Andy is working on that is monumental, it is going to change the game.

    I think the critical part there for a lot of Founder's is "finally". There are a lot of players that were in that program that feel like not enough was done for way too long during development and testing. I was not there, so I cannot defend either side...but I also get that at the point of hitting alpha/beta...we are not really focused on "developing" anything. We are testing and fixing.

    When those things are happening, you'll hear about them before they release. Let's observe Rare's pattern of behavior here regarding updates. They have basically told us what is going to be in the update, every time and not left any real surprises other than easter eggs, teases, or lore nods. I fully expect them to announce these change ahead of time, ESPECIALLY after the backlash from the UI change not being announced properly. It was actually mentioned in a few interviews, but nothing really mainstream.

    It seems like it wasn't even announced internally at Rare to be honest. There were several comments that came out of Rare that made them look somewhat sloppy. They then responded by saying they would be reviewing their processes internally and adjusting appropriately, which I think is totally evident in Forsaken Shores. I do hope they keep that up.

    Anyone who was "on the fence" with this game in regards of FS and didn't like it; I will speak to you directly here; "Patiently wait or go take a break." The changes you want and the depth you want will take time and will not be here any time soon. Continuing to moan about it, is not going to make it come any faster. It is literally just about time. So go take a break and come back with fresh eyes.

    I am not on the fence. I am in it for the long haul... I am also invested, and will offer an opinion when I feel I should. I recognize that what I say is my opinion. I totally get that I am not right. I can tell you though when I say things like "listening to players leads to chaos" ... it is the truth, because I have worked in settings where our IT director wanted to take too much input from users, and the end result was starting projects over after many months wasted. You cannot let end-users dictate what you do as a developer. You will end up with a mess every time. So I do say some things with an education behind them...they are still opinion, but an educated one. The same holds true for Rare, though. People need to realize that everything Rare does is "opinion". It is their property, and their opinion holds more clout than anyone elses. If you don't like something, then there isn't much you can do about it other than be critical. Being critical does not mean being angry, rude, and obnoxious. There is a right way and a wrong way to be critical. Rare is driving this bus...we are all along for the ride. If they make a wrong turn...try mentioning it in a positive way without pulling out your cell phone, calling them idiots, and posting a video about how stupid they are (obviously not directed at you PersonalC0ffee, lol).

    I am still not pleased with the new barrel system, but the change to it in this update was a small step in the right direction and it makes it tolerable...much more so than before. I would suggest dropping the "F" for full stacks and "R" for single items, and go "F" to withdraw full stacks and "R" to deposit them... then maybe a modifier to do singles if that is even necessary. I don't know the controller equivalents to those.

  • @personalc0ffee said in Forsaken Shores ... thoughts and issues thus far -- and where do we go from here?:

    Just a quick response to this... I pretty much am picking up everything you put down here. I already knew the "you" was everyone. I just added my view on my take of it. This is probably the first response I have ever gotten from you that I just read through and said "yeah" to every point. haha...

    FS is absolutely the best update they have released in terms of quality-control.

    My "xbox game controller" that i do have is a PS4 controller with a third-party driver to make it work with Windows 10...so I do not know how the buttons translate at all. I really need to look at the control scheme for console/controller and start referencing it as well when I post a "button".

    I think the barrels are better than they were, but in time...if it grows as is expected I don't think it is going to work out. It is going to break the flow of PvP while on an enemy ship. It is going to get you killed while on islands. If they get "too much" added into the game they will have to go to a tabbed interface, or a sortable interface, or a filterable interface...or a combination of those. That is going to take time to use, and likely going to be very limited for PC players because it has to be implemented on console as well. It is going to take more time than it currently does to use.

    At the same time, while they could implement all of the items into individual barrels... I also tout that Rare needs to work on resource management with the server and client, and something like that becomes an issue on something at this scale. It is not as bad as you would think, but the server already seems to tow-the-line in regard to performance at times.

  • @personalc0ffee said in Forsaken Shores ... thoughts and issues thus far -- and where do we go from here?:

    @aod-fluid I believe that Rare is much more capable then that and when that time comes, they will already have something in place for it. I would also expect these kind of conversations to have already taken place in the office.

    If their UI was truly built with scale in mind, they must realize you can't have 12 individual resources in barrels and expect to get anything done quickly.

    But barrel 1.0 would not be good for that either and that's what people do not understand and why I harp on it so much.

    We're probably going to see further UI design down the road to address this. We may even see an even better UI design come out of it.

    In terms of barrels themselves, barrel 1.0 was better all-around than barrel 2.0. All you would have to do on a ship is learn where the appropriate storage place was and press a single button to store, or take an item. I don't know if other food is going to offer any "buffing" or "effect"...but if not, the banana barrel literally is called "Food Barrel". It would work to store any type of food. There is no need for a UI there at all if the foods all offer identical benefits.

    The only place that we currently need a UI popped up is the cannonball barrel... which again, I don't think we even really need. I am not a proponent of the cursed cannonball. I think they took what was the very literal definition of a "level playing field" and bombed it with random-number generation in the respect of "who found the cursed cannonballs". Cursed cannonballs have thrown ship-to-ship combat out of whack... The sloops that used to hound us for 20 minutes at a skull fort because everytime they would get hit once they would suddenly go away in a straight line to repair might do that two or three times now...but then we stop them, put them to sleep, and sink them. Those either need to be gone, or become single-carry items like powderkegs just to make them go down with the ship and not be stored on every crew members inventory, even through death and sinking.

    Which all of that leads me to where I think this will end up...because none of that was complaining. It is just my opinion on how things are right now. None of this is ready to be implemented and should not have been implemented at all RIGHT NOW. If you need a new UI for the future, then by all means have one ready, but there is no need to have it active yet. There is also no need for a blanket "food barrel" (if food all serves the single-purpose of healing the same amount) for having a UI at all. Let some barrels pop up a UI when necessary, and some not. If something is game-changing, then make it a single-carry item... and make them RARE.

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