@scheefinator It's not just part of the game... It's the core concept. Which is why I think it should be made more rewarding and a little easier to justify doing.
[Mega Thread] - Balancing PvE and PvP to ensure a great experience for everyone - Discussion
@mri1ama said in [Mega Thread] - Balancing PvE and PvP to ensure a great experience for everyone - Discussion:
@treblucfayle You must really not read other posts in this thread because this has been addressed multiple times.
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try doing PvP only with no PvE and find out how much gold/rep per hour you get. I can promise you it's less than PvE because I have done it on both scale tests.
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if you make chests worth less than what they are PvP will be even less of an occurrence than it was in the scale tests. In fact I'm sure when the game releases PvP will be less than it was in the scale tests already because of the first point I made. Unless you get super lucky and find a ship anchored somewhere right away with a bunch of chests you are going to get less gold/rep per hour.
It's not about how much you get per hour. It's about what you enter the encounter with and what you leave the encounter with. PvPers come most likely with nothing and have a chance to leave with everything. PvErs come with potentially with something and have a chance to lose all of it. In other words, PvPers aren't risking anything while PvErs are risking everything. The game will create an environment where PvErs are just prey pinatas for PvPers.
As it stands, carebear level dedicated PvErs aren't going to have fun for very long in Sea of Thieves. I think any reasonable person can admit that much at least? The question is whether it's worth trying to keep them around? If it is worth keeping them around, then some things need to change. If it isn't worth it, we'll have to see if the game can draw in enough PvPers survive without dedicated PvErs.
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@scheefinator Well with limited experience on a very small percent of the game i feel that they are impressively well balanced. aside from the respawn issue that they are looking into. the only complaints i keep hearing is due to someone just being bad...and half of these complaints are solved by one of the many tips for beginners threads.
i mean i have only played through two betas but ive not had any of the issues people keep complaining about. due mainly to the fact that im not complacent or trusting of unknown pirates.
@mri1ama said in [Mega Thread] - Balancing PvE and PvP to ensure a great experience for everyone - Discussion:
@sillycolt302271 Clearly you haven't been reading the posts in this thread. Or you are just ignorant to them.
RARE HAS STATED MULTIPLE TIMES THERE WILL BE NO SAFE ZONES AND NO PVE SERVERS
This is a thread for the balance of PvE and PvP TOGETHER.@deusnecrotis Alright so i read through your post there and don't worry I've posted longer ones in here a few times lol. I honestly thought it was gonna be a post where you are invulnerable doing a voyage or something I've seen so much of that, good thing I read it and didn't skim. But just in case let me clarify.
You want side missions where it's just go to point A do something small and you get rewarded for it upfront without having to cash anything in correct? Let me put some thoughts out there on this.- I don't mind this idea per say. As long as it was executed correctly. Like rewards that are reasonable for the lack of risk. Ie the same amount you get from a castaway chest.
- I wouldn't even go as far to say it should be a separate side mission that you have to buy. Even if they added it to regular voyages like a bonus objective to the voyage itself. And lore wise it could be the vendor saying hey while your out there do you think you could do this for me.
But yeah then all those people who complain about not getting anything for doing the voyage might be appeased with little impact to the game itself. (I believe you get rep already for completing voyages and parts of voyages. Hard to tell during scale tests because the rep was a bit buggy)
I guess you misunderstood, they said there aren’t currently plans to. They never once said there will never be.
It’s all good though. I realize people tend to take their own interpretation of things. I won’t argue with you.
Let’s just see what the turnout is
@mri1ama said in [Mega Thread] - Balancing PvE and PvP to ensure a great experience for everyone - Discussion:
@saladbrains @mrloadedpotato Are you two kidding?, you are literally saying the same thing again? We have told you time and time again that this is wrong but you keep bringing it up.
- PvP players get less gold/rep per hour than PvE players (dont believe me? try and do PvP only for a day and compare that to a day doing PvE only) This has nothing to do with no risk to PvP because there is a high RISK of getting less loot for your time.
- As for the whole griefing thing, you say anyone that PvP's is griefing and it makes no sense, griefing is caused mainly by respawning issues which I believe rare has said they are going to fix.
- If you can't handle the balanced PvP of this game you don't have to buy it, RARE has already stated there will be no PvE servers no AI ships and no safezones.
- I didn't comment on gold/rep efficiency between playstyles.
- Nope. I'm on record as stating not all PvP is griefing.
- Rare's statements on the matter leave room to consider it later (not something we are currently exploring), as smart game developers should never make definitive statements on anything that could box them in and prevent them from responding to changes in the community and the market.
This game was going to be good. If you haven’t seen how bad this forum has become, then I am not sure what to say. If the pve people leave, the PvP people will get bor s quick. If the PvP people leave, the pve people will just continue to do what they do. That is what they do, regardless of content.
Just wait and see.
@sillycolt302271 They arent separate. PVP and PVE are connected in this game. to progress you have to do both. thats what balances it.
Its not possible to PVE only cause you can be attacked. and if you PVP only youll get next to no rewards. in order to fully enjoy this game you have to play it the way its intended. a balance of both
Why is that concept so difficult for people? Participating in PVP and PVE is the core concept. just deal with it or dont play. dont be babies
Some players will want to make it more competitive, more pvp. Hopefully, that people will be deceived at launch and will go back to CS, Overwatch & co. PVE and PVP do need improvements indeed, but don't need so-called pro-players psychotic optimisations. I really do hope you'll never find your new Fortnite/PUBG here. This is a pirate themed sandbox, not some Battlefield: Pirates Edition.
- you don't understand what risk is, it's not about 'how much gold you earn per hour' it's the fact that you can attack people endlessly and literally not lose anything by doing so. all you 'lose' is your own time. an example of risk would be, it costs you 50 gold to respawn your ship when you attack first or you lose reputation for attacking and dying or you lose gold for attacking and dying. those are actual risks.
- you continue to say i equate PvP to griefing which isn't true, i've separately addressed both griefing and PvP
- you keep saying we're demanding separate servers while either ignoring posts including ideas about other mechanics they could add to the game or responding to them 'that's never going to happen'
- just because they said they're currently not looking at those options doesn't mean it's going to be that way forever until the end of time the end. they might add an AI World Boss, they might add an AI ghost ship, they might add PvP penalties or bounties or a faction for PvP. they want to support this game for 'ten years' you can bet that at some point these things will come back up again, they need new content, and they need to keep ALL TYPES OF PLAYERS playing.
trying to explain these points to the few people in here that have no interest in discussing actual ideas gets very tiresome.
@mrloadedpotato how hard is it for people to understand these points man. they never made definitive statements, yes they want to keep everyone together but they also are going to want to retain as many players as possible. and i don't think anyone in this thread has actually equated PvP to griefing.
@scheefinator There is always waiting and seeing in online gaming.
I wonder what EA Dice would have said prior to launch if you asked them the likelihood that they would turn their micro-transactions off within 48 hours of Battlefront 2 launching. I expect it would have been a resounding "Never." Anyone that has played online, frequently updated games has experienced gaming studios caving to player demand and doing things they may have previously said they wouldn't do. Player reception will be the determining factor in all of this.
Despite being told to shutup, people should continue to put their opinion out there. Rare needs to hear from everyone that considers this issue to be a deal breaker for them.
@timidobserver That is true. except that micro-transactions arent a core mechanic lol
Actually screw it XD i support PVE servers. on one condition. playing in that server you get NO rewards for avoiding all risk. OR you can suck it up and play the game then way its designed to be played
@runic This game has to be PVP and there is a reason for it. You are part of the PVE experience, you are part of the environment already, you as a captain of a ship or part of it's crew will (as the devs put it) become part of the lore.
The beta testing is to help to see what is a good balance of players so you won't always be getting tagged. Sure in any game that there are human beings you will most certainly find trolls and griefers it's kinda always there, I will admit when I saw the trailer I thought 'oh pretty' and just impulse bought it without knowing to much about then as I did research I couldn't find anything about Sea of thieves except it was a pirate game, the betas we did also didn't help with that worry that I threw 60$ down the drain, because of how simple it was.
The issue I think most people have (Including myself) is the lack of what this actually is going to be when it releases and that gives you all sorts of Ideas, with the devs being purposefully cryptic and letting our imaginations run wild, and because of games like -No mans sky- promising and then under delivering, we are worried. So we all think it's going to be broken from the beginning and a lot of games recently have taught us that we should expect that.
We have also become hyper critical of what a game should be, so let us not worry too much about stats and Minmaxing everything, I feel that is kinda of what the devs are doing purposefully. As long as they have different cannonballs i.e Grapeshot, or Chain shot, and a Harpoon gun I know I will have fun. If not Oh well, at least this game will be something different and you tubers will be playing it for a few months so I will get some entertainment that way.@saladbrains Death penalties border on being game breaking bud.
say you are new right? i sink you and you get a penalty me being the guy without any chests. i find you again and sink you. annnnnd you get a penalty. now whats to stop me from continuously killing you? nothing and you make no progress. while i do :p seeing other ships really isnt THAT common. if you run into the same person repeatedly and you keep killing them without any penalty to them. GO SOMEWHERE ELSE. the map isnt tiny explore. voyages are based off of where you start them.
@timidobserver That may be true. but this particular topic is and should be a never. PVE only areas or servers dont belong in this game. not because i dont like it. but because it contradicts the core mechanic of the game.
I believe that pve will destroy the game by making a clear level of boring that those even in pvp but not fighting will find to be less of a break from fighting but just a boring pretty loading screen from island to island. There needs to be risk of lose otherwise what is the point. Might as well play chess with yourself sense you cant take losing. As with griefers.. restart game and hope to find a better server as with any another game no and days is sucks but so do the trollers themselves. maybe make a report character option if you keep dieing from the same person or party. Dont let the grieffers win by changing the game!!!!!!!!!
@stonerstone420 said in [Mega Thread] - Balancing PvE and PvP to ensure a great experience for everyone - Discussion:
I believe that pve will destroy the game by making a clear level of boring that those even in pvp but not fighting will find to be less of a break from fighting but just a boring pretty loading screen from island to island. There needs to be risk of lose otherwise what is the point. Might as well play chess with yourself sense you cant take losing. As with griefers.. restart game and hope to find a better server as with any another game no and days is sucks but so do the trollers themselves. maybe make a report character option if you keep dieing from the same person or party. Dont let the grieffers win by changing the game!!!!!!!!!
It s not PUBG man ! If you need 100% pvp it's for you !!
Sea of thieves it's pve and pvp ! Play only for kill many people it's not very perfect in this game !! And when i see many noobs in Galleon search the players single or 2 for the fun and leave vs another Galleon ^^ ! It's possible to say the same ! The pvp kill this game ^^ (but i like pvp and pve and i play single ..)@stonerstone420 Greifing isnt really possible in this game.
dying to the same people repeatedly can be attributed to you staying in the same area. and the respawn issue which is being looked into.@saladbrains how would you propose that there is risk only for the Aggressor. Also can you maybe see some issues with the game having issues differentiating between who the aggressor is and who the prey is?
also to reference your last post. No game is for all types of players. In this one as has been said many times. PVP and PVE are not meant to be separate. The two being played together as one part of the game is the whole concept. pve is pointless without the risk of attack. and pvp is pointless with out the rewards from adventuring. If you are too scared of the risk then this game just isnt for you.
@toastywrath said in [Mega Thread] - Balancing PvE and PvP to ensure a great experience for everyone - Discussion:
@sillycolt302271 They arent separate. PVP and PVE are connected in this game. to progress you have to do both. thats what balances it.
Its not possible to PVE only cause you can be attacked. and if you PVP only youll get next to no rewards. in order to fully enjoy this game you have to play it the way its intended. a balance of both
Why is that concept so difficult for people? Participating in PVP and PVE is the core concept. just deal with it or dont play. dont be babies
@toastywrath said in [Mega Thread] - Balancing PvE and PvP to ensure a great experience for everyone - Discussion:
@sillycolt302271 They arent separate. PVP and PVE are connected in this game. to progress you have to do both. thats what balances it.
Its not possible to PVE only cause you can be attacked. and if you PVP only youll get next to no rewards. in order to fully enjoy this game you have to play it the way its intended. a balance of both
Why is that concept so difficult for people? Participating in PVP and PVE is the core concept. just deal with it or dont play. dont be babies
No, that is completely wrong. Not trying to be rude but that is wrong. The only way you progress is pve. Now if you are talking about stealing other peoples chests, then yeah I guess you could progress with PvP.
But you did say to progress, you have to do both. That is what is wrong. If someone never fought anybody and did nothing but pve, they would progress further than anyone.
The sad part is people think this is a PvP game. It’s not. It has a PvP element. One element, of a lot of elements in the game. If you think things won’t change, then I feel bad for you guys. You should know by now.
I know it isn’t going to be soon, but if you can’t see the future of the game I don’t know what to tell you. You can only sink ships for so long before that gets old. They can keep adding pve and people will keep playing.
And no adding a progression system would just make the game die faster 😂
@sillycolt302271 You misunderstood.
i was saying to Fully enjoy the game requires both. progression without doing both is both slow and kind of boring. its the combination and balance between them that really make this game what it is.
the fear of possible attack during adventuring like treasure hunting or transporting cargo is what makes it exciting. but limiting yourself to one or they other is of course boring. i wouldnt play it either if it was like that.
Dont forget that we dont know what extra content they have in total.
@toastywrath said in [Mega Thread] - Balancing PvE and PvP to ensure a great experience for everyone - Discussion:
@sillycolt302271 You misunderstood.
i was saying to Fully enjoy the game requires both. progression without doing both is both slow and kind of boring. its the combination and balance between them that really make this game what it is.
the fear of possible attack during adventuring like treasure hunting or transporting cargo is what makes it exciting. but limiting yourself to one or they other is of course boring. i wouldnt play it either if it was like that.
Dont forget that we dont know what extra content they have in total.
Doing only pve would not make progression slow in the slightest. That is the fastest way to progress. That is also why pve is the main part of the game. They let you steal chests so the PvP people will still play. If they didn’t they wouldn’t want to play. Very smart on rares part. The thing is pvp is a very small aspect of this game when you take everything into consideration.
Especially since they don’t have a real progression system. How long before PvP people get tired of the same old, same old? It won’t really matter when they leave because nobody will care.
Even the skeleton forts makes it to where you have to work together(more pve) or fight the kraken(more pve). I never said the game needed more pve.
I said the game would so good for people with pve servers. But if you think this is a mostly PvP game, you are very mistaken. Next time you think I am wrong go upgrade something and see if it benefits you or gives you more of a pve brag 😉
@toastywrath said in [Mega Thread] - Balancing PvE and PvP to ensure a great experience for everyone - Discussion:
@sillycolt302271 They arent separate. PVP and PVE are connected in this game. to progress you have to do both. thats what balances it.
Its not possible to PVE only cause you can be attacked. and if you PVP only youll get next to no rewards. in order to fully enjoy this game you have to play it the way its intended. a balance of both
Why is that concept so difficult for people? Participating in PVP and PVE is the core concept. just deal with it or dont play. dont be babies
You're assuming everyone is interested in progress as if that holds the same weight for everyone. For a game that relies on horizontal progression and cosmetics, plenty of PvP players will be attracted to this game to participate in PvP only (some have said as much) and it's hardly "next to no rewards", just less efficient according to several here that have tested it. No one knows what impact that will have on the game or if the community is enough to keep it in check or if it will require intervention from Rare.
How will all of this manifest itself in-game? Say the game is leaning too much toward PvP. First, that's still subjective. Second, those advocating for a shared world are generally leaning toward PvP anyway and will probably just respond by stabbing it or launching a cannonball at it after realizing the waving and dancing isn't working. Will they come back here and call for frequency of encounters to be adjusted or for hard mechanics to push it back toward the middle? When push comes to shove, how much will they continue to advocate for that magical, core concept or is the slip toward madness so gradual no one will notice until it's too late. Many will chalk it up to, well, that's the game now and throw the core concept out the proverbial window. Yeah, it was sacred just long enough to hit people over the head with it in the forums.
I keep allowing myself to fall for this delusion of a shared world concept when the reality is that all PvP players have to do to share in this world is turn something in to a vendor as if they're suddenly playing a PvE game or occasionally share a "moment" with another player as they move on to their next target, possibly that poor fellow still waxing poetic about the temporary moment they just experienced. In order for PvE players to share in this world, we have to be the target. It's a PvP game through and through. PvE players are just additional content to fill the gaps like other NPCs.
I think that we should have a bounty and notoriety system in place. For example if I was being chased be another crew who would not leave me alone (I play sloop btw) I should be able to set a bounty that is multiplied by their notoriety so if they have been griefing other crews i on.y need to pay a little bounty to get them sunk by another crew but if say I was a greifer I could not get a large bounty on someone without all of it being my own money see what I mean?
Also they needs to be a little bit more risk in pvp say if I died I lost 50 coins and a banana one wooden plank and 5 cannon balls that falls on the ground as a pouch someone else picks up I.e guy who killed me oh and you would drop ammo to I guess anyway this would introduce more risk reward in the game and if coupled with the bounty system I think would be very effective in weeding out trolls and making the game more fun as a whole
@saladbrains nah I 100% know you don't read posts now. Now that you said I have only denied ideas to make it better. There have been many posts I have agreed with and even added points to their idea to help bolster them and try and make them better. You just come on here and spout the same thing over and over and I keep telling you it's not going to happen because rare said it isn't. You are beating a dead horse and I'm telling you to stop flooding the thread with the same thing we've heard it a million times. When you come up with a new idea cool. But if you come on with the same thing about PvE SERVERS or AI ships it's been said already and it's been denied by rare so leave it at that for now and maybe read some other posts to educate yourself not just the ones you are tagged in
@mrloadedpotato said in [Mega Thread] - Balancing PvE and PvP to ensure a great experience for everyone - Discussion:
@deusnecrotis said in [Mega Thread] - Balancing PvE and PvP to ensure a great experience for everyone - Discussion:
I'd like once again to try and take another approach to helping resolve the imbalance myself and others perceive in PvP and PvE. First, a bit about why I seen an imbalance. If someone wants to be a pure PvP player, they can. It seems like, at the very least, all players will always have access to the most basic sword, pistol, and ships, so there is never a moment when you are flat out required to do quests, progress towards Pirate Legend, or even sell booty seized as spoils of victory, in order to enjoy your PvP game play. On the flip side, if someone wants to be a pure PvE player, they really can't, since they are perpetually required to engage to avoidance strategies if they wish to have any reliable chance of getting their potential reward (emphasis on "potential") all the way back to port to cash it in. Avoidance strategies they may be, but they are still PvP centered activities imposed upon all PvE game play. PvP players experience no such imposition.
Thank you for stating it so eloquently. This summarizes my feelings about the whole situation, that this game is really a PvP game with PvE elements to entertain the PvP players between kills. I'm tempted to even forgo the traditional PvE label and call it something like environmental elements PvP players must contend with so the game isn't strictly a team deathmatch or battle royale like weather in PUBG can be marketed as a PvE element and suddenly it's a shared world. Come on in! We welcome everyone!
That's a bit hyperbolic but I think it illustrates my point that all this just feels like marketing noise and empty labels for a PvP game that wants to be something more than it really is at the expense of the PvE player who bears more of the burden. What does a shared world mean to a PvE player if PvP is forced on them? That's a PvP game. Call it whatever you want on the box.
You're very welcome. I actually spent nearly an hour carefully crafting that bit to get it sounding just right. It's very gratifying to know that effort paid off for someone other than just myself.
Also I think it's possible you may feel even more strongly about this than I, which is something I can hardly believe I'm saying. Normally, I'm such an ardently anti-PvP gamer that in the last ten years, I have spent significant amounts of money on exactly two games that involve as much or more obligatory PvP as this one does. In the cases of both those games, it took me far longer to reach a decision about whether or not the non-PvP mechanics were worth enough to me to put up with the PvP. It really speaks to the overall quality of what RARE has created here that I'm already so willing to set my anti-PvP fervor this far aside. As always, thanks for reading!
@xbus6 said in [Mega Thread] - Balancing PvE and PvP to ensure a great experience for everyone - Discussion:
@deusnecrotis
I think your both exactly rightThanks!
Although I can't say I have a particularly strong opinion either way about a bounty system, I love that you're chucking out multiple ideas about different details such a system might have, and how they might affect the game, as well as the other things you've talked about. Thanks for helping out in the development process of this great game!
@toastywrath said in [Mega Thread] - Balancing PvE and PvP to ensure a great experience for everyone - Discussion:
@saladbrains how would you propose that there is risk only for the Aggressor. Also can you maybe see some issues with the game having issues differentiating between who the aggressor is and who the prey is?
aggressor identification:
- first hit (could be abused by baiting with intentional misses)
- firing in a certain radius of another ship/crew member marks you as the aggressor
also to reference your last post. No game is for all types of players. In this one as has been said many times. PVP and PVE are not meant to be separate. The two being played together as one part of the game is the whole concept. pve is pointless without the risk of attack. and pvp is pointless with out the rewards from adventuring. If you are too scared of the risk then this game just isnt for you.
not every game is PvPvE though. this game is, which means it's attracting all types of players and to be successful they must retain as many of those as possible. this is why they said 'they're not currently considering' those things, it's a no but not a never in case that changes in the future
Experience could be improved by simply respawning the boat in a different map after PvP loss.
You start in a random map, you get into a PvP fight and you start losing.
If you simply die, you respawn the same as now - on the boat or near the mermaid.
But, if you lose the ship and you respawn it, you are brought to a new map - and your mates follow at their next respawn. And the twist is the new map is reserved to players who lost PvP until its filled. (Once it's filled, if a ship is destroyed or they simply disconnect, anyone can spawn on it at their connection.)
So, after respawn, you can't seek revenge. And you're in a map that may be a little less aggressive. But not necessarily passive as an aggressor could have lost and also respawned here.
You can also extend to any death - not only PvP - to have more diversity in the crews you encounters but it gives an opportunity to some players to destroy their ship intentionally to change server with bad intentions.The point is removing unwanted behaviours: players coming back for revenge again and again or players tracking their victim to kill them again and again, while giving an opportunity to players less interested in PvP to get on a map with players that may be likeminded. But not necessarily, so PvP remains a possibility.
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