@roughmonkey0
Show me any information where this game has been planned to be full open world PVP!!! It never has & never will, that isn't what Rare are aiming for! I think you are mistaking this with Skull & Bones!
Sea of Thieves has always been a Shared World Adventure Game which doesn't sound very PVP to me??
At the moment it's all moronic 1 track PVP'ers who are ruining this game. No reasoning, no thought process, no morals, just kill, kill, kill.
How many full PVP games don't have leaderboards, don't have stats, don't have upgradeable weapons etc.
Yes, it's a pirate game, but pirates didn't sail around destroying everything that moved either!!
This game can be so much more, unfortunately for all the mdk generation, you'll never know how rewarding that can be!!
Enjoy :)
PvE players trying to ruin the game
Segregated servers just seem like such a terrible idea for a pirate game. Pirate settings, whether historical or fictional, are always centered around a core triangle of "factions." The first is "the weak." These are your citizens, merchants, travellers, etc. These are people who are out doing business on the seas who don't want any trouble. Pirates are the second group, and their whole purpose is centered around exploiting the first group for gain. The third group is some form of navy/authority/officials that police the seas to keep the first group safe. This is all such a core thing to piracy; it shouldn't ever be removed from a pirate game.
The current state of SoT represents the first group as PvE players who are bad at PvP or are otherwise heavily focused on their questing for the session. The second group are the pirates who attack each other and the first group. We don't have that final piece yet, the navy, but we have seen at least two strong indications that player-based bounties will be a thing.
To have separate PvE and PvP servers essentially destroys the core of the pirate triangle that I outlined. Newbies and people who just want to do quests will obviously opt out of PvP servers. Authority players will have no one to protect, and the PvP servers will be ruined by removing a core aspect of piracy from them, and instead turning it into more of a fair deathmatch styled game. That's not what a pirate game should ever aspire to. There are supposed to be weak players getting exploited, who then need to turn to other weak players and band together, or get some sort of authority to help them out. In Sea of Thieves, there are no NPC ships, so it all has to be player-based. That is the kind of thing that gets me the most excited about this game: Those kinds of meta relationships that can form organically as players learn the ins and outs of the game. Separate servers sounds like a completely fair compromise on paper, but it ultimately ruins the game from an entirely different angle that is very important to many of us wanting a true pirate game.
@atiden said in PvE players trying to ruin the game:
@KendoRoland I think your argument is a little flawed here. You are basically saying that PVP players like to push around PVE players since they don't fight back as much, and that if the devs give PVE players their own server, it would ruin PVP for all of the PVPers. That is like saying "I like boxing with other boxers in the gym, but sometimes I like to go outside and start throwing jabs at the random people that walk past me. I don't think its fair to me if the police stop me from doing that". PVP should never be a situation of "I like killing players, but I like it even more if the players don't want to fight back". It stops being a fun game if it caters to only one side of the play style spectrum.
There are plenty of ways to make PVP work for everyone without splitting the servers though. Myself and some others have thrown around some ideas in another thread, Great game, just needs a few tweaks. One of those ideas is to add a risk/reward system to pvp play. Right now, PVE players are at constant risk of just being attacked randomly by a PVPer who knows that there is no downside to them attacking anyone they see. By putting in some risk, you not only increase the fun of the fight, you also make it happen less often and for better reasons than "Hey look Jim! There's some players over there. Let's kill 'em!"
My argument for not having PvE servers isn't that it would ruin PvP by taking out all the easy targets, its that PvE players you know have chests and will surely engage in a cat and mouse game to keep it from you. While other PvP players will fight with everything they've got before attempting to flee.
The comparison of a boxer to a regular person is not an accurate representation of the what I said. It would be more like "I'm a boxer and there's other people in the boxing gym that I don't know shadow boxing, I'd like to test my skills on them".
Considering were both playing the same game its not accurate to compare someone just minding their own business that would in no way interact with you, to someone literally playing the same game as you. The interaction with PvP players currently is forced by the game not the player.
@logansdadtoo Its not a PvP game. Its a PvPvE game. I don't think anyone would deny that. The problem is people saying there should be sectioned off Pv-PvE.
@natsu-v2 said
The current state of SoT represents the first group as PvE players who are bad at PvP or are otherwise heavily focused on their questing for the session. The second group are the pirates who attack each other and the first group. We don't have that final piece yet, the navy, but we have seen at least two strong indications that player-based bounties will be a thing.
I think the navy should have active NPC crews, that patrol the seas looking to police unruly pirates. Players could also opt to join the navy and help work as the "good guys" of the sea. This would also tie into bounties.
To have separate PvE and PvP servers essentially destroys the core of the pirate triangle that I outlined. Newbies and people who just want to do quests will obviously opt out of PvP servers. Authority players will have no one to protect, and the PvP servers will be ruined by removing a core aspect of piracy from them, and instead turning it into more of a fair deathmatch styled game.
Even among PvP players, people like/support PvP for different reasons, so I don't think it would just devolve into deathmatch games.
@kendoroland said
My argument for not having PvE servers isn't that it would ruin PvP by taking out all the easy targets, its that PvE players you know have chests and will surely engage in a cat and mouse game to keep it from you. While other PvP players will fight with everything they've got before attempting to flee.
The comparison of a boxer to a regular person is not an accurate representation of the what I said. It would be more like "I'm a boxer and there's other people in the boxing gym that I don't know shadow boxing, I'd like to test my skills on them".
Everything you just said, was just a longer more redundant way of saying, "it would ruin PvP by taking out all the easy targets..."
PvE players you know have chests and will surely engage in a cat and mouse game to keep it from you.
yes, because they are easy targets...that's why they are fleeing...
It would be more like "I'm a boxer and there's other people in the boxing gym that I don't know shadow boxing, I'd like to test my skills on them".
yes, you want to test your skills on them, because they are easy targets...
@h0rse said in PvE players trying to ruin the game:
I think the navy should have active NPC crews, that patrol the seas looking to police unruly pirates. Players could also opt to join the navy and help work as the "good guys" of the sea. This would also tie into bounties.
This would be awesome but there's no way it would come at release it would have to be a later addition but this is a good suggestion.
Even among PvP players, people like/support PvP for different reasons, so I don't think it would just devolve into deathmatch games.
It would. As a PvP player PvE gets boring quick.
@kendoroland
I have been helping with testing for a year now m8, so i know what type of game it is & what type of game it can be!
It's just unfortunate that as soon as the Hardcore PVP players rock up, then all they see is PVP & try & turn it into that sort of game.
I don't want segregated servers either, but something definitely needs to be sorted. I will partake in pvp if i have to, i can handle myself, but if i don't want to i shouldn't have to.@logansdadtoo That's fine. And I don't think that most of the people saying don't change the PvP are "hardcore" PvP players per se. They just don't want changes that will ruin pvp. Of which I've heard alot of ideas that would ruin it.
I think we're forgetting that the Beta is not the full game and I also think that critical to this balance are the two remaining Trading Companies, which we've seen in the Progression Video.
Sea of Thieves is a Shared World Adventure Game, but at the current time there is a bias towards PvP. You gain reputation with the Gold Hoarder by turning in chests, for some this means sinking other ships to gain chests et voila, hand them in and you gain progress.
However, if our journey towards Legendary Pirate status and the finding of Athena's treasure as mentioned on the website is all about progress with the Trading Companies - then those who solely play a PvP style will likely miss out on progress with the Merchant Company - we've seen hints and snippets that suggest these are about fulfilling specific timed deliveries of goods to certain destinations. So to my thinking, if you don't have the quest, you don't make progress.
If the rewards from the other Companies also came with a bonus and acknowledgement for completing the quests and maps you have in your inventory, or have bought, rather than random chests, the game will reward those who prefer PvE and allow them to make progress all the while allowing those who want to engage in pure PvP their opportunity to do so.
For me, the game I want to see is just that - it's a shared world where you have the danger and excitement of encountering another ship and crew, who might or might not be friendly. In the current Beta, most encounters are hostile and I don't believe that is the intention at all. There are no leaderboards, no stats, no k/d ration, no rewards other than the chance of gaining a couple of chests to hand in and progress with the Gold Hoarders.
I'd be looking for a more subtle and intelligent solution than safe zones, although a social space would be very welcome, a solution that allows for all players to enjoy the game rather than skew it towards either preference, where you would be alienating a whole player group.
@h0rse said in PvE players trying to ruin the game:
@kendoroland said
My argument for not having PvE servers isn't that it would ruin PvP by taking out all the easy targets, its that PvE players you know have chests and will surely engage in a cat and mouse game to keep it from you. While other PvP players will fight with everything they've got before attempting to flee.
The comparison of a boxer to a regular person is not an accurate representation of the what I said. It would be more like "I'm a boxer and there's other people in the boxing gym that I don't know shadow boxing, I'd like to test my skills on them".
Everything you just said, was just a longer more redundant way of saying, "it would ruin PvP by taking out all the easy targets..."
PvE players you know have chests and will surely engage in a cat and mouse game to keep it from you.
yes, because they are easy targets...that's why they are fleeing...
It would be more like "I'm a boxer and there's other people in the boxing gym that I don't know shadow boxing, I'd like to test my skills on them".
yes, you want to test your skills on them, because they are easy targets...
You've missed the point on just about every response I've seen you read. I'm done talking with you.
@kendoroland said
It would. As a PvP player PvE gets boring quick.
Not everyone that supports the inclusion of PvP is a PvP player...
@ii-jumper-i said in PvE players trying to ruin the game:
And because of that thinking the game will flop...
It just cant be a PvP focused game, not in this day and age where games provide a lot of OPTIONS for everyone.
The lacks that options.There is nothing wrong about asking for more PvE stuff at all.
There's also nothing wrong with making something not for "everyone". Honestly if more games hadn't tried to appeal to everyone they'd be in a much better place now.
@logansdadtoo said
I don't want segregated servers either, but something definitely needs to be sorted. I will partake in pvp if i have to, i can handle myself, but if i don't want to i shouldn't have to.
This is what I have been saying, and I was crucified for it...
@kendoroland One does one's best, don't ye know ;) Thank you.
We all want to be able to enjoy this game, the best course seems to be to find a solution that works for as many as possible.
@kendoroland said in PvE players trying to ruin the game:
@atiden said in PvE players trying to ruin the game:
@KendoRoland I think your argument is a little flawed here. You are basically saying that PVP players like to push around PVE players since they don't fight back as much, and that if the devs give PVE players their own server, it would ruin PVP for all of the PVPers. That is like saying "I like boxing with other boxers in the gym, but sometimes I like to go outside and start throwing jabs at the random people that walk past me. I don't think its fair to me if the police stop me from doing that". PVP should never be a situation of "I like killing players, but I like it even more if the players don't want to fight back". It stops being a fun game if it caters to only one side of the play style spectrum.
There are plenty of ways to make PVP work for everyone without splitting the servers though. Myself and some others have thrown around some ideas in another thread, Great game, just needs a few tweaks. One of those ideas is to add a risk/reward system to pvp play. Right now, PVE players are at constant risk of just being attacked randomly by a PVPer who knows that there is no downside to them attacking anyone they see. By putting in some risk, you not only increase the fun of the fight, you also make it happen less often and for better reasons than "Hey look Jim! There's some players over there. Let's kill 'em!"
My argument for not having PvE servers isn't that it would ruin PvP by taking out all the easy targets, its that PvE players you know have chests and will surely engage in a cat and mouse game to keep it from you. While other PvP players will fight with everything they've got before attempting to flee.
The comparison of a boxer to a regular person is not an accurate representation of the what I said. It would be more like "I'm a boxer and there's other people in the boxing gym that I don't know shadow boxing, I'd like to test my skills on them".
Considering were both playing the same game its not accurate to compare someone just minding their own business that would in no way interact with you, to someone literally playing the same game as you. The interaction with PvP players currently is forced by the game not the player.
Your original argument makes more sense now that you have explained it a bit more. Yes, the PVE players are most likely holding treasure of some sort on board, thus making themselves targets (though I know for a fact that PVP players will do the occasional voyage and end up carrying treasures as well). But I think my analogy still holds water. The point of the analogy is still that the PVP player is running down a PVE player who, for all intents and purposes, is minding their own business and has no interest in PVP (hence the random people walking by analogy).
In the end the problem still remains, PVE players minding their own business are being consistently thrust into PVP fights. It is to the point that you could bet money that if you go on a voyage, you will end up running from someone, probably end up fighting for a second, then abandon your ship with some treasure in hand, making a mad dash to turn it in. Pure PVE players do not find that fun, which is where this whole problem comes from.
@kendoroland said in PvE players trying to ruin the game:
@logansdadtoo Its not a PvP game. Its a PvPvE game. I don't think anyone would deny that. The problem is people saying there should be sectioned off Pv-PvE.
The problem is it isn't appropriately balanced as such, and unless Rare is planning on unleashing a whole other game's worth of content, the only way we're going to realistically see anything meaningful on this front is through matchmaking/server options.
Anyone who has played with me knows I'd love a more balanced take. There would need to be more emphasis on resource/crew management systems, consequence/penalty to death/sinking, player reputation with NPC factions that react accordingly, meaningful progression, and who knows how much more. From what we know Sea of Thieves isn't trying to be that game though.
With what we've seen I really think Rare needs to consider PVE options, especially if the game isn't going to be developed around a strong competitive angle.
@natsu-v2 I like the idea of having some kind of bounty system. Sort of like stars in GTA or Rep in Wow. The more you PvP, the more potential you have of being attacked by the authorities in port, maybe at a certain threat level you appear to everyone on the map and they get a big reward for sinking your ship. It might give people pause to spend an entire session hunting others. You have to balance your rep so you don't become to infamous.
@atiden I completely understand what your saying. The issue I have with your analogy is that your projecting intent on PvP players. Such that they are bullying the weaker player. While this "may" be the case its not always the case. Certainly not in my case.
What I'm talking about is varying the gameplay. For me personally I don't want to only play against PvP players cuz they play the same way almost everytime. As you said, sometimes they do have treasure and they try to run with it but its rare. Most will fight I know I do.
That being said I'm not blind to the problems of the game. Currently its a beta with limited content. With more content there will be less people just hunting for PvP.
The PVP in this game is awesome! I like that if your ship is sunk, you can just talk to Mermaid Man. You'll be whisked away to a safe location with a new ship. (Or if you're feeling vengeful, you can respawn at a reasonable rate in the area and try to sink their ship). My friend and I run together on a 2 man sloop, and have had little problem balancing PVP and PVE. If we want to run voyages we'll tread carefully, and when we have no treasure we'll look for player ships to battle. They even have death seas on the edges of the map to prevent extremely long chases.
I'd love to see the aforementioned Navy, or some sort of player-bounty system. Especially if in the login menu you could queue to join the Navy.
Bosses would be neat, too. Really just need something to draw multiple crews to a hotspot on the map. One of my favorite battles so far was a 2v2v2!
Lastly, please don't add safe-zones. A lot of the excitement comes from racing to an outpost when you're loaded full of treasure. If someone's play-style is to camp the outposts and steal treasure, they're probably gonna have a boring experience. There are plenty of outposts within reasonable distances in order to avoid these sorts of players. My buddy and I considered ourselves lucky when we came across someone turning in chests. And we were able to beat them and take the easy loot! When we saw them on the seas later, we waved and played music because we want a healthy balance, too. :-) Fool me once, shame on you..
OH! AND PLEASE ADD A WAY TO REORGANIZE/REMAP THE QUICKSLOTS . It can be a bit distracting to spin the scrollwheel for the desired weapon while in combat.
Thank you for the beta and thankfully the time in-between the release will allow me a break from constantly playing.
@inflickked Again this sounds like you saying you want this game to be an MMO. I can understand why it would seem like it should be that way.
For me all the videos I've seen leading up to alphas were devs talking about crews competing for treasure in a map with other matchmade crews. I truly believe this game is more like a capture the flag game than anything else. The flags are the gold and the outposts are the home bases essentially. One of the things I just dont understand(looking at this as objectively as i can) is why people want PvE servers. If the game launches with a similar amount of content as there is right now there wont be enough content PvE wise to justify that at all. If there were PvE servers right now all you'd be doing is fighting harmless skeletons. From my understanding people want challenging PvE, which this game atm does not have. The leveling and advancements just seem like something to keep you interested while you collect more flags.
@atiden said in PvE players trying to ruin the game:
@kendoroland said in PvE players trying to ruin the game:
@atiden said in PvE players trying to ruin the game:
@KendoRoland I think your argument is a little flawed here. You are basically saying that PVP players like to push around PVE players since they don't fight back as much, and that if the devs give PVE players their own server, it would ruin PVP for all of the PVPers. That is like saying "I like boxing with other boxers in the gym, but sometimes I like to go outside and start throwing jabs at the random people that walk past me. I don't think its fair to me if the police stop me from doing that". PVP should never be a situation of "I like killing players, but I like it even more if the players don't want to fight back". It stops being a fun game if it caters to only one side of the play style spectrum.
There are plenty of ways to make PVP work for everyone without splitting the servers though. Myself and some others have thrown around some ideas in another thread, Great game, just needs a few tweaks. One of those ideas is to add a risk/reward system to pvp play. Right now, PVE players are at constant risk of just being attacked randomly by a PVPer who knows that there is no downside to them attacking anyone they see. By putting in some risk, you not only increase the fun of the fight, you also make it happen less often and for better reasons than "Hey look Jim! There's some players over there. Let's kill 'em!"
My argument for not having PvE servers isn't that it would ruin PvP by taking out all the easy targets, its that PvE players you know have chests and will surely engage in a cat and mouse game to keep it from you. While other PvP players will fight with everything they've got before attempting to flee.
The comparison of a boxer to a regular person is not an accurate representation of the what I said. It would be more like "I'm a boxer and there's other people in the boxing gym that I don't know shadow boxing, I'd like to test my skills on them".
Considering were both playing the same game its not accurate to compare someone just minding their own business that would in no way interact with you, to someone literally playing the same game as you. The interaction with PvP players currently is forced by the game not the player.
Your original argument makes more sense now that you have explained it a bit more. Yes, the PVE players are most likely holding treasure of some sort on board, thus making themselves targets (though I know for a fact that PVP players will do the occasional voyage and end up carrying treasures as well). But I think my analogy still holds water. The point of the analogy is still that the PVP player is running down a PVE player who, for all intents and purposes, is minding their own business and has no interest in PVP (hence the random people walking by analogy).
In the end the problem still remains, PVE players minding their own business are being consistently thrust into PVP fights. It is to the point that you could bet money that if you go on a voyage, you will end up running from someone, probably end up fighting for a second, then abandon your ship with some treasure in hand, making a mad dash to turn it in. Pure PVE players do not find that fun, which is where this whole problem comes from.
That's it in a nutshell. In a shared world, PvP players will lament any limitations in an attempt to balance the game and PvE players will lament being unwilling participants in the former's sadistic fantasy world. Everyone's eyes are on Rare to perform a magic trick.
@kendoroland No, I'm aware that Rare has distanced themselves from having Sea of Thieves being labeled a MMO with their SWAG. I'm not anticipating much (if any) of those features to be in the game at launch. Without some direct attention that's why it's also going to be terribly imbalanced in terms of 'PVP vs. PVE' though.
Like you just said, you see the game as a session-based PVP capture the flag game. There's a lot of people who see the game as something else though; a beautiful open world sandbox to adventure with their friends. Giving them something as simple as PVE options wouldn't detract from your CTF experience at all.
Would you really get that riled up knowing somebody else was playing on a PVE server because you think it would be boring? If progression is just cosmetic what does it ultimately matter?
@inflickked said in PvE players trying to ruin the game:
Would you really get that riled up knowing somebody else was playing on a PVE server because you think it would be boring? If progression is just cosmetic what does it ultimately matter?
Not at all what I cant understand isn't why people like to PvE. Its that there's currently not enough PvE to justify servers for it. And I honestly don't think there's going to be but hey I could be wrong and this could be a fully fleshed PvE game with world bosses to fight. The islands and the map currently can be explored in a minuscule amount of time so there's really not a case IMO for a server just for that atm.
@kendoroland Ahh, gotcha, sorry for the misunderstanding! That's something I used to argue awhile back, and I still agree PVE servers wouldn't hold much long-term appeal given what we've seen, but I've come to stop opposing them as often as they're requested. With the progression being mainly cosmetic I don't see much argument against them anymore. And if it could lead to more consistent/quality PVP encounters on PVP servers I'd be all for it.
@kendoroland said in PvE players trying to ruin the game:
@inflickked said in PvE players trying to ruin the game:
Would you really get that riled up knowing somebody else was playing on a PVE server because you think it would be boring? If progression is just cosmetic what does it ultimately matter?
Not at all what I cant understand isn't why people like to PvE. Its that there's currently not enough PvE to justify servers for it. And I honestly don't think there's going to be but hey I could be wrong and this could be a fully fleshed PvE game with world bosses to fight. The islands and the map currently can be explored in a minuscule amount of time so there's really not a case IMO for a server just for that atm.
Some have expressed interest in just sailing. That's it. I've mentioned previously the possibility of sea monsters and fighting ships filled with the dead. Let the PvE players worry about PvE content. We'll do fine.
@inflickked Not a problem man :]. I just think PvE servers are the easist, laziest way to fix a complicated problem. I think we just need to let Rare do their job and try to make it fun for everyone without separating them first.
@kendoroland I'm willing to wait and see. Maybe they've cracked the formula and they'll knock our socks off.
@mrloadedpotato Well I would let them worry about it but when I did that in WoW we got opt in PvP and world PvP died. Besides I'm not opposed to more PvE content.. I want more of it so I''m not just killing people or skellies all game. Ill kill a kraken or twenty. I just wanna be able to PvP without anyone telling me how I should do it. Or telling me I'm some sort of monster for wanting to steal someones treasure that doesn't want me to.
@mrloadedpotato Not everyone wants segregated servers making it harder to find full games. And focusing on building new, dedicated PVE servers 2 months before release would be nonsensical.
The only thing the game really needs is a Navy. And if that's a stretch, then at least a bounty system, coupled with the upcoming Courier/Trading Factions, will make a dramatic difference in player encounters.i think everyone knows that complains about difficulty is going to apear cough* cough* [cuphead] but if the map was like 25 ships i would agree beacouse that way would be more likely to be attack i think everyone agrees the 25 to 30 ships servers wont happend so soon so there is no poin of saying that safe zones in a game about pirates should be a thing
