Death by PvE vs PvP

  • Despite Rare stating some time ago that we will not be seeing NPC ships in SoT, the idea is still regularly brought up, most often (I think) by players who are more inclined towards PvE than PvP.

    And yet, were there to be a PvE only option that contained NPC ships that could attack you mid-voyage, potentially sinking your ship and costing you your loot, the end result to you would still be the same.

    And that got me thinking. What is it about losing to other players that many people find so much more infuriating? Obviously if said players are unduly cocky about beating you that's an obvious one, but even if they're not, many people seem to find the experience of being beaten by other players to be much worse than if they'd been beaten by NPCs.

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  • @ever-reddy I think the psychology behind it is people feeling like they are being looked down up on or judged and being pushed down the hierarchy so to speak by "Losing a battle".

    Wheather thats true or not, its just a game and shouldnt be taken serious, admitly they are empty words but i believe if people tried tnay mentality they would find the PvP more enjoyable.

    On the topic of NPC ships, i kinda wish they where there, i dont think there should be any massive galleons or anything, but even the solo ships with the odd chest or bit off mercintile would have filled the world that little bit more.

  • @ever-reddy I agree. I mean there's a lot of people not liking the pvp. But its not always a negative experience. Yes there will be trolls but it's up to us to have positive encounters with eachother-whether theres combat or no.

    That being said. Specific missions to hunt a skelly cap'n on an npc boat does have its appeal...

  • I think we can find answers by looking at games like Dark Souls and the invasion mechanic.

  • @knifelife said in Death by PvE vs PvP:

    On the topic of NPC ships, i kinda wish they where there, i dont think there should be any massive galleons or anything, but even the solo ships with the odd chest or bit off mercintile would have filled the world that little bit more.

    Personally I love the way the sight of a sail on the horizon immediately puts you on high alert, and I think the introduction of NPC ships would dilute that.

    Although if Rare were to change their minds and introduce some, I'd rather go in the opposite direction to you and have huge Man 'o' War ships that are a real challenge and very rare or mission based.

  • If you have a good shot and don't just dive in the groups of risen skeletons, then there shouldn't be much dying in pve. I mean, Even if the skeleton hits you directly, he doesn't do nearly as much damage as a player nor is as proficient.

    But... I guess there could be many more pve deaths when the kraken arrives. Haven't seen any video, aside from the single picture RARE posted, but I really hope it will be savage and challenging fight, unlike those dumb skellies.

  • @ever-reddy It's a psychological component that damages the players self-esteem and reinforces the notion that they're not worthy to stand amongst their peers.

  • @martkill666 Remember, it is not just groups of skeletons on land that can kill you. They've shown skeletons on islands manning cannons shooting at ships! If there were a few of them aimed at your ship, you could very well be personally hit. There are also sharks.

  • @ever-reddy I think this is an interesting question to ask.

    I'm one of those who enjoys PvE, I spent a good few years sinking PvE ships in PotCo, so have experienced both.

    With Sea of Thieves in particular, I think the argument for addition of PvE vessels would mean not only a greater variety of ships would be possible, but that the world itself would feel less desolate. So for instance you'd see the odd merchant fleet, maybe fishing vessels, perhaps a rogue Spanish treasure ship sailing through the waters. These to my mind, are scenarios that are more easily accomplished using specific NPC/PvE ships.

    Given then, that there would be a mix of Pirates as well as the NPC ships, you would still experience that excitement when you saw a flag on the horizon and knew it was another player, but you'd also have the option and opportunity to go after other ships.

    I have also played PvP games and really enjoyed the thrill, unpredictability and excitement of encountering other players - but it does come with downsides, as we've seen in the many posts where encounters haven't necessarily been either pleasant, or enjoyable even under the wide umbrella of 'piratey' behaviour.

    Everyone will come to Sea of Thieves with their own experiences and preconceptions of how the game might be played, whether you role play, you're out to sink as many other players as possible or you're aiming for Legendary Pirate status. It's when these styles of play clash, I think it might lead to a less than optimal experience, especially when it can also spill over to hot tempered exchanges via messaging etc.

    You're dealing with human beings, they're generally going to be unpredictable and as gamers, we already have a good idea of the best and worst possibilities out there, from other pvp games.

  • Theyve said theyre not adding a leaderboard or tracking kill/death ratio IIRC.

    As much as my k/d boosted my low self-esteem in previous games, if rare stick to that IMO is a good thing. So it wont even matter who kills you, if they make it personal by taunting, just change server and move on.

    Itll get lost and forgotten anyway, same as any gold you might have had at the time as well xD

  • @ever-reddy said in Death by PvE vs PvP:

    @knifelife said in Death by PvE vs PvP:

    On the topic of NPC ships, i kinda wish they where there, i dont think there should be any massive galleons or anything, but even the solo ships with the odd chest or bit off mercintile would have filled the world that little bit more.

    Personally I love the way the sight of a sail on the horizon immediately puts you on high alert, and I think the introduction of NPC ships would dilute that.

    Although if Rare were to change their minds and introduce some, I'd rather go in the opposite direction to you and have huge Man 'o' War ships that are a real challenge and very rare or mission based.

    I personally think Rare could easily make it so you could tell the diffrence, so i dont think that would be a problem.

    But as Rare has said they dont want it so it wont happen, its a shame but i personally am avoiding judging until the game comes out. Although im starting to get slightly worried about certain aspects off the game Rare always has a habbit of suprising me and proving me wrong so who knows lol.

  • Just hang in everyone.... Don't cancel our pre-orders just yet...
    We have been reading and watching dev blogs, Twitter, YouTube, and forums... Lots of buzz going on about big things coming to Sea of Thieves!!

    The Developers knows that there is a problem with PvP'ers vs PvE'ers... And how it's effecting the gaming community and experiences.

    Everything we see all said the same thing....they want SoT to be a player friendly fun game for everyone.

    Open beta is coming.... Hopefully with full content of what SoT is going to be looking like when it goes live.

  • Honestly I think this is an amazing idea. I would love to see NPC merchant ships randomly sailing. But then I also like to see like treasure ships but they would not be alone have them be escorted. When your sailing around in SOT and you come across three ships sailing in formation. You would know one of them is a treasure ship. This would also make you have to team up with other captains to take it on.

  • I was hoping for some kind of clothing or item that tracked accomplishments. But if they are not that’s cool who knows what could happen down the road.
    I am hoping for a community area like the taverns but a little bigger. One where you could even sea wanted posters for the lead players currently on the server. It would not be for any thing more then bragging right but that is still something

  • @zombie-p1ague My understanding is that is what Rare was hoping too

  • @zombie-p1ague said in Death by PvE vs PvP:

    Honestly I think this is an amazing idea. I would love to see NPC merchant ships randomly sailing. But then I also like to see like treasure ships but they would not be alone have them be escorted. When your sailing around in SOT and you come across three ships sailing in formation. You would know one of them is a treasure ship. This would also make you have to team up with other captains to take it on.

    Awesome Idea's....
    It would be nice to have merchant Ships, Pirate Bounty Hunters ships, and other NPC Pirates ships to have loot to chaise down with rare treasure maps, and other loot to be plundering.

    Give Players other things to attack and be attacked by other than just skeletons and each other.

    The more PVE content and things for players to do....the better for the longevity of the game.

    https://pa1.narvii.com/6525/6e1a55267c7b29fd7d3dbf6302046cc4f3b5b393_hq.gif

  • @knifelife said in Death by PvE vs PvP:

    @ever-reddy I think the psychology behind it is people feeling like they are being looked down up on or judged and being pushed down the hierarchy so to speak by "Losing a battle".

    Whether or not people admit or realize this, even if you arent rude about winning this is usually the reason why people get upset, sad thing is rather than take the blame for their own failings and try to learn or simply try harder next time, they will call you a troll or blame the game itself. But they dont blame the game itself when a non player threat kills them. Its mind boggling (que dbz trunks meme)

    Wheather thats true or not, its just a game and shouldnt be taken serious, admitly they are empty words but i believe if people tried tnay mentality they would find the PvP more enjoyable.

    Agreed except the empty words part. Very true and Pretty much spot on assessment lol.

    On the topic of NPC ships, i kinda wish they where there, i dont think there should be any massive galleons or anything, but even the solo ships with the odd chest or bit off mercintile would have filled the world that little bit more.

    That would be nice. I would prefer a higher player pop and then just more npc threats everywhere on islands but if they could do ships that would be awesome lol.

  • I want a strong pve component. I wqnt those npc ships attacking us.... one thing i hate about arc survival is the non stop griefing..... i dont want this game to become like that...

    By having a enemy npc faction it would encourage other pirate crews to work together at times and truce...

  • You people and your treasure ships... (Scoffs)!
    Give me an NPC ship carrying barrels of grog! Now that's worth fighting for! ARR!!!

  • I say these things @KattTruewalker , then I look at the profile picture I chose and realize, I might have a grogging problem...lol hic!

  • @thorhammer3 Haha! I think you might be right there..

  • I suspect that interacting with (or "being killed" by) PvE/NPCs usually helps to keep the immersion and the illusion of the virtual world allowing to experience almost a role-play kinda of experience, simply due to the NPC behavior.

    NPCs conform to expected behaviors within the game lore.

    Players rarely conform to anything ;)

    It breaks the immersion seeing a bunch of (player) characters always jump-running around like crazy people as if the ground was on fire, doing odd sharp or 270º turns, basically doing weird/unnatural/unexpected (in the game lore sense) stuff.

    Maybe that's why, in a "lore oriented" game, PvP style fights in certain situations and with some players might break this immersion, more so if people start being childishly annoying on Mics or acting weirdly funny and totally unlike what's expected from the situation at hand (like 2 guys fighting and a guy jumping up'n'down in circles. EDIT: ok, maybe he's role-playing a panic attack xD)

    Also, if there were NPC ships in this game and 99% of them started shooting everything and anything on sight even parked ships at outposts, I'm guessing most of us would consider that a bug or extremely poor game design... which, funnily enough, if players do it, it's not a bug :P ...but it still feels weird since that's really not how one would expect things should happen in this game "world".
    I've never seen a pirate movie or story where every parked ship was sunk on sight or any living being was shot on sight. That's an extremely boring and lame world to live in, TBH.
    Almost like having a house on the beach but the beach is a minefield. Step it at your own risk while trying to enjoy that beach.

    Apart from that "immersion breaking" notion, I guess being killed by PvP (if done right and in a fun way) wouldn't be that different from being killed by a mob of NPCs.

  • @koshdukai

    I think you make some really good points there, particularly about immersion and consistency within the world of Sea of Thieves - it's definitely easier to become a 'pirate' when everything around you is congruous with the world in which we're playing. NPC's, both ships and those characters populating outposts and the world in general really do help to balance that immersion in favour of the genre.

    Harder, as you mention, when other players are 'doing their own thing' and with proximity chat, the intrusions from real life will affect that immersion as well as less concordant gamertags appearing. You'd not necessarily encounter an 'xxxsh00tFrstxxx' in most rpg game settings for instance.

  • @katttruewalker said in Death by PvE vs PvP:

    Harder, as you mention, when other players are 'doing their own thing' and with proximity chat, the intrusions from real life will affect that immersion as well as less concordant gamertags appearing. You'd not necessarily encounter an 'xxxsh00tFrstxxx' in most rpg game settings for instance.

    Exactly. ...and yeah I totally forgot to mention the immersion breaking gamertags! :D

  • @jetorchidee97 I was thinking this same thing. It would be cool to be given the chance to "raid" another crew's voyage and then decide whether or not to take on the challenge!

  • Okay sorry to do this but as the beta gets closer and closer people can’t seem to leave the pvp/pve topic alone. I currently seems to be the biggest discussion on the forums.
    Look the game is an open world the slogan is play as you want.
    Will there be jerks, grieffers, and trolls absolutely. But it honestly seems like to me that pve is what drives the character progression. Pvp is a side option it is not the foundation of this game
    alt text

  • @koshdukai said in Death by PvE vs PvP:

    I suspect that interacting with (or "being killed" by) PvE/NPCs usually helps to keep the immersion and the illusion of the virtual world allowing to experience almost a role-play kinda of experience, simply due to the NPC behavior.

    NPCs conform to expected behaviors within the game lore.

    Players rarely conform to anything ;)

    It breaks the immersion seeing a bunch of (player) characters always jump-running around like crazy people as if the ground was on fire, doing odd sharp or 270º turns, basically doing weird/unnatural/unexpected (in the game lore sense) stuff.

    Maybe that's why, in a "lore oriented" game, PvP style fights in certain situations and with some players might break this immersion, more so if people start being childishly annoying on Mics or acting weirdly funny and totally unlike what's expected from the situation at hand (like 2 guys fighting and a guy jumping up'n'down in circles. EDIT: ok, maybe he's role-playing a panic attack xD)

    Also, if there were NPC ships in this game and 99% of them started shooting everything and anything on sight even parked ships at outposts, I'm guessing most of us would consider that a bug or extremely poor game design... which, funnily enough, if players do it, it's not a bug :P ...but it still feels weird since that's really not how one would expect things should happen in this game "world".
    I've never seen a pirate movie or story where every parked ship was sunk on sight or any living being was shot on sight. That's an extremely boring and lame world to live in, TBH.
    Almost like having a house on the beach but the beach is a minefield. Step it at your own risk while trying to enjoy that beach.

    Im with you, you make some good points as to why its perceived differently, but what a good day for you to make a beach house metaphor. The house i live in the basement of is near the beach. Real close. So close that this snow storm the north east is getting hit by flooded my whole room, i only saved my phone tv and xbox in time... pretty much everything else is now floating or under 3-4 ft of ice cold salt water.... there are worse things than being killed by another player! Lol.... im not rich by any means but thank god for family and living in a good place in this world so ill be fine haha.. good day for the beach metaphor though lol

    Apart from that "immersion breaking" notion, I guess being killed by PvP (if done right and in a fun way) wouldn't be that different from being killed by a mob of NPCs.

  • @a-cranky-eskimo said in Death by PvE vs PvP:

    [...] pretty much everything else is now floating or under 3-4 ft of ice cold salt water...

    oh man, that's tough! Hey, at least you're safe (right?) :)

  • I would rather pvp personally. It keeps things interesting. It is the reason games like borderlands get boring after a while whereas games like overwatch or call of duty stay popular. NPC adversaries are predictable. There movements and actions will always be the same. Players on the other hand can be creative. You’ll never know what they’re going to do and that’s what makes it more fun

  • @erikinthebakery good thing the sharks can't man cannons then :D

  • wait, they can't, right?

  • I personally enjoy PvP over NPC because it provides more of a challenge with every pirate having a different fighting style but would like to see NPC ships not like a massive amount either but just enough to keep it interesting if I am playing around 3 am and i don't run into any ships for an hour or more I would probably lose interest in that game session which could be possible with PvP only.. all I know is I trust Rare either way with the game looking phenomenal as it is right now.

  • @zombie-p1ague said in Death by PvE vs PvP:

    Okay sorry to do this but

    Are you? Are you really? :P

    as the beta gets closer and closer people can’t seem to leave the pvp/pve topic alone. I currently seems to be the biggest discussion on the forums.

    If it's the biggest topic on the forum at the moment, doesn't that show that it's a major concern for players on all sides of the discussion? And if that's the case, why would/should they want to leave the topic alone? Surely the point of this forum is to allow people to voice their concerns so that Rare can see what they are?

    Look the game is an open world the slogan is play as you want.

    Unless what you want is loads of regular PvP, or to be able to enjoy the PvE side without fear of attack form other players, which appears to be what many of the discussions are about.

    Will there be jerks, grieffers, and trolls absolutely. But it honestly seems like to me that pve is what drives the character progression. Pvp is a side option it is not the foundation of this game.

    You may be right, but none of the above actually relates to my initial post. Yes it comes under the general PvP vs PvE topic, but much more specifically I was attempting to open a discussion about why people often react differently to being killed by other players than when killed by NPCs.

  • About deaths... it would be nice if there was something like ''getting downed'' , like in Fortnite, where your teamates can actually revive you if the enemy doesn't b******u to smithereens first.

  • @martkill666 said in Death by PvE vs PvP:

    wait, they can't, right?

    Sorry, NDA... ;)

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