Season 13, villain?

  • Lleorb
    Champion
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    Since the game's inception in 2018 and even before that Flameheart was portrayed as the game's main villain, an enemy of the player, a dictator, the season 13 trailer reinforces this. But should it be like this?

    Over time we got to know more about flameheart, his vision and that of the reapers, including working for them and fighting for them in the hourglass. We had the possibility of helping him or not on adventures.

    With that in mind, why continue treating Flameheart as a villain and the pirate lord as a hero? I'm not specifically talking about the "become a villain" line in the trailer, but rather making things more ambiguous in the plot. Show virtues in Flameheart and flaws in the pirate lord, show that they both have valid worldviews that avoid good/evil, I had been excited when Demarco died and the suspicion was his own father, that he would have put his goals above the well-being of his family but in the end he remained "a good man against the forces of evil."

    Well, in short, in the future we will have more conflicts with the Dark Brethren and GMU and it would be interesting for the player to see that things are not dichotomous so they can choose a side in these disputes. Remembering, we are pirates, from the point of view of others, WE are the villains.

    Edit: An interesting mechanic for possible future tall tales are alternative paths, with the player deciding who they want to help.

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  • WolfManbush
    Champion

    They are just brothers that need to sit down and have a ghostheart to flameheart.

    Flameheart knows that the pirate lord gets in all sorts of personal drama and then plays goody one shoe for the crowd.

    The pirate lord knows that Flameheart is easy to troll and get fired up so he pecks at him to get him to react and bark at everyone.

    Talk it out and then work on co-existing. They don't have to like each other, just need to communicate and deescalate.

    Then we all sail together to defeat the dragons or giant boars or crab monsters or whatever.

  • heslashthem
    Legend
    Insider

    @lleorb it’s good to be a little bad. I think that’s what the trailer was more hinting at, not a deep dive of good vs bad.

  • BurnBacon
    Vanguard
    Insider

    Don’t forget about, The Captain

  • Valor Omega
    Champion
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    I would say that Flameheart has always been set up as the penultimate villain. However, there are facets to his character that make it less of a purely good, or purely evil. He's got a good enough portion of him, to raise Junior and want the best for his adopted son. Despite this though, he's still a ruthless pirate that wants to exclusively rule the seas with an iron, fiery fist.

    I know that he claims to stand for true freedom, but again, having the Sea of Thieves exclusively under his rule kind of goes against this mindset, I feel. With the Pirate Lord, he ultimately wants to protect the majesty of the Sea of Thives and stop the infighting between crews. In his way, he wants freedom as well, but like Flameheart, sort of contradicts himself with HOW he wants to employ those ideals.

    I think the only true, purely evil faction would be the GMU, who seeks to eradicate the Sea of Thieves, and all Piracy. I don't think we've seen enough of the Dark Brethren (aside from them murdering Merrick) to really get what they're about.

  • Lleorb
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    @tesiccl Being a little evil or cruel is fine, but it seems that currently he is completely evil, his worldview is completely tyrannical. It would be better if they argued with the player why their vision is the best.

    This opens up the possibility for more interaction and immersion in the world and conflicts. If mechanics are added in this regard.

  • Lleorb
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    @valor-omega

    I know that he claims to stand for true freedom, but again, having the Sea of Thieves exclusively under his rule kind of goes against this mindset

    Maybe he wants to be the strongest king, to ensure that no one else takes control of the seas to take away pirate freedom and chaos. It would be a good argument to support his side, but this is not said, all it seems is that he wants to be a tyrant taking away everyone's freedom while defending anarchy.

    With the Pirate Lord, he ultimately wants to protect the majesty of the Sea of Thives and stop the infighting between crews

    He is a pirate, but he is "too kind", we see no controversial actions, no apparent dirt in his character, he does what he believes is best for everyone.

    I think the only true, purely evil faction would be the GMU, who seeks to eradicate the Sea of Thieves, and all Piracy. I don't think we've seen enough of the Dark Brethren (aside from them murdering Merrick) to really get what they're about.

    From what I know, inside SOT the GMU just wants to make a profit, outside of the fog they really wanted to exterminate piracy, it's an acceptable view for pirates to want to profit from them.

    The Dark Brethren are the ones who want the end of pirate life, the extermination of this lifestyle, but again, if the argument is good what's the harm in allying with them, I just hope they're not purely villainous.

    Flameheart could have some sense of battle honor, he preaches that the strong dominate the weak, but he doesn't reject cheating to win, I think this is a flaw in the character. He is someone who says he is strong but would certainly form an alliance to destroy an enemy.

  • VaughnSilver
    Master
    Insider

    Depending on your viewpoints any faction can be the villains.

    imo Ramsey, Flameheart and Wanda are the top 3 at the moment.

  • Rotten Rocko
    Marauder
    Founder

    I know flame hearts supposed to be the villain ( I haven't read heart of fire yet) but imo he just wants to see the sea of thieves free from the governing of Ramsey. Flame hearts only vision for the sea of thieves is that it's a place where treasure or gold don't matter and the only thing that does matter is the fight. I mean it kinda makes sense since pirates stood against being governed for various reasons that a true pirate would hate any sort of governing over what's said to be a pirate paradise, which in a sense paints Ramsey as a villain for appointing himself as this sort of king of the pirates and sea of thieves

    Both Ramsey and flame heart are fighting for control over a "free sea" so it would be cool if they did kind of give Ramsey a bit of a villainous tarnish to his charismatic heroic personality

  • Ghutar
    Legend
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    @rotten-rocko

    Lot of well know pirates was Jacobites so well kinda pro rule they were.

    Probably it best not to draw real world pararells here.

  • Rotten Rocko
    Marauder
    Founder

    @ghutar I'm not a historian, but I've watched a lot of documentaries, read lots of books and been to many pirate exhibitions in museums ( kind of an obsession I've got) not heard lots of pirates were Jacobites before? Isn't Jacobites like a Scottish thing? Pirates as a hole were under educated, couldn't read or write and wouldn't have had any sort of religion or political stance, other then some small inclination to what they were brought up with. Also came from many different countries, although the majority of these sailors would of been English... So I'm not sure why you think they would of mostly adhered to a Scottish semi religious, political stance

  • Rotten Rocko
    Marauder
    Founder

    @ghutar

    link text

    Just did a quick bit of research, some British pirates used Jacobites symbols as a sign of resistance to king George during the golden age of piracy but this didn't mean they supported putting James on a throne or supported his rule. They were just rebelling against the king of England

  • Reverend Toast
    Lord
    Insider

    The fact that there is some logic in what Flameheart stands for makes him a compelling villain, just like Thanos, Magneto, etc. However unlike the Pirate Lord, selfishness drives Flameheart forward, so that is why he is still “Evil” when compared to the mistakes the Pirate Lord has made.

  • Ghutar
    Legend
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    @rotten-rocko I based on same article wrting about Jacobites!

    I would argue that having sympathies for deposed ruler make them leaning thoward goverment more than anarchy/non-goverment types.

    From the other hand the balance of power on most ships between crew-quatermaster-captain goes right with you words.

    Of course part of this sympathies cloud be for their own better thinking about themself "we are privateers of deposed king, not pirates" sort of thing.

    Enyhow it is plasure to get article in response!

    Eny document and wrtings you would advertise?
    I mostly crusie academia.edu or follow sources from Gold and Gunpowder.

  • Rotten Rocko
    Marauder
    Founder

    @ghutar it wasn't that they were anarchists really, they sort of formed their own version of democracy where the majority vote won regardless of status or power. A lot of people that turned to piracy were forced to spend years at sea on the promise of payment and a lot of the time when they came home to dock they'd basically be kidnapped to go back out to sea for years again without having had the chance to see they're family's, these people were almost forced into a life of piracy really by the government.

    A book I really enjoyed was "the republic of pirates by Colin Woodard" and they're was a pretty enjoyable documentary on netflix "the lost pirate kingdom" I'd recommend both of those, the book more so it really goes into the history we have available to us.

  • Ghutar
    Legend
    Insider
    Founder

    @rotten-rocko I recognise whole passage from early chapters Woodard there :)

    BTW I read somwhere that Colin a little bit overdramatised pressganging in XVII/XVIII Navy.
    This and something about ships and William Dampier made me taking his book with grain of salt.

    Probably passages from "Myth of Pressganging".

    Declaimer, english is my second language so sometimes I cloud use words as in my native language.

    Collective making decison donset make it democracy per se.
    I used anarchistic as "non goverment, without proper law" [other than atricles of agreement on ship of course]" as Flying Gang or Madagascar Pirates never made eny govering organs.

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