Enough is enough. I have never seen before a game take so many sidesteps, mis-steps and backsteps in the course of smoothing out minor bugs and overall fluidity.
With virtually every update we either get more of the same, something worse, or just the same and pvp (which is often something worse, though not always). We have been begging on this forum for combat reform or at least retweaking but instead we get a very small step forward which is then COMPLETELY REMOVED. Instead of pushing forward with combat fluidity and making it fun its gone back to square 0. The combat is slow and boring. There is almost no learning curve at all in PVE combat (bash head against wall, suicide to barrel skelly/run away and shoot, repeat).
Either pvp and pve combat need to be different things or you need to ACTUALLY FIX THE COMBAT.
This is starting to look like a blizzard situation with the devs being clueless to what this community desires.
Who is calling the shots with these "updates"
So what i think they are doing is: Makes the combat worse and worse with each update, until all the people that enjoys the PvP is gone, and then they finally can make all the servers PvE only and the PvE community will be happy.
Thats the only reason that i can see, so those stupid updates makes sense.@mith-bosevem I think it's obvious at this point that Rare doesn't have anyone on staff that knows how to make/understands what makes good first person combat(if they do then they are ignoring them). Unless they hire someone who does, I don't think the combat will improve any time soon.
Tbh i agree with you. The pacing for combat just gets slower and slower. Most of the time i just die to Skelly cause when facing a bunch of skelly with flintlocks they pretty much kill you in 1 shot in a way. Not to mention, the hit rate Skelly with Flintlocks have. 99% of the time u will get hit.
#findingShroud
More like % wise it is a very small amount of people with extreme frustration over these things.
As developers have said before, no matter how much testing is done you always run in to these problems.
I personally love the game and the fun times it has given me are not overshadowed by this "fluid combat" people seek. Then again gamers have a right to voice their opinions regarding what they would like changed.A. If you don't like the game, don't play it and don't bother us who do enjoy it. If you did like the game in the past, and feel they're ruining it now (totally valid position), then try to make that apparent, because right now it looks like a lot of the posters here just hate the game.
B. I think like the last three updates we have gotten have all been band-aid fixes trying to keep us happy while they build the mega-update (which I trust will include extensive combat fixes, deep lore additions, quest overhauls, new/more complex ai threats, etc). I'm hoping that all the missteps we're seeing now are just because they have a tiny dev team working on tiny patches so that the majority of the team can build the actual content for the mega-update. While that seems like a poor way to run the game, its possible enough that I would recommend reserving judgment until the big update.
@vorondil1
What will you do mate if if really does not change much? No true transparency, opposite definition of what communication is, and more of the same over a year has trend otherwise.
I among others are hoping things will finally change. I am not ready to lose hope like you... yet. That something truly new and original is really on the horizon. So far it is all shrouded by too much unnecessary fog, long gaps in fixes, and way too much recycled content that says the stormy sea may not calm anytime soon.
@eva1977 said in Who is calling the shots with these "updates":
As developers have said before, no matter how much testing is done you always run in to these problems.
Some* problems, but not these problems specifically. These problems are placeholder lvls of unfinished and unpolished. Problems like numerous bugs on sword, no swap animations on sword(no swap animation of guns at launch), delay after running, etc should not have made it into the game period. These problems are so obvious that no one else makes them. You don't hear people complaining about Halo, apex, destiny, dark souls, monster hunter, witcher 3, etc for stuff like this because their combat is well design and aren't littered with numerous amateur mistakes. It makes me think that the devs of SoT haven't played any games with combat in them because it's so obvious to see that something in SoT combat is off if compare it to virtually any other game with combat in it.
@eva1977 ....what? SoT doesn't have many of the things that those games have. Compare SoT to any of those games and all of those games are FAR more polished and developed than SoT. Combat is a part of the game; A BIG part of the game. If it wasn't finished then they shouldn't have released it. So yes, it is about them dropping the ball. Especially considering how obvious these problems are AND it's a FULL YEAR after release.
@eva1977 What wave mechanic? The ocean is a empty mess of nothing in this game. It has no life to it besides the shark. People kept going on and on and apparently are still going on about the "ocean" in SoT. The ocean just looks pretty. That is it. Period.
It has no other function in the game other then, well, really nothing. There are lots of other games who banked on being "pretty and shiny" but they all failed. It's like finding a perfect diamond to find out it was just cardboard with a sticker on it to make it look perfect.
There are no waves. They have waves on the surface of the water to make it look cool, but it does nothing. It does not affect you, your boat, or game play. The waves do not push your boat. There is no currents in the game. No riptides. No nothing. The sole driving factor of your boat is the wind and only the wind. Once your boat comes to a rest, it will stay there. Even if you go out and drop anchor in the middle of the Wilds with those raging waves and then raise. The boat will stay in the same position and not move.
The game has had very large combat problems since launch. The game has already bled out a huge majority of the players since launch due to the combat being bland and un-fun. If the combat was actually fun we would not have people complaining like we do on the forums when they get killed cause even death would be fun if the mechanics surrounding it were enjoyable.
I have said before in a post, it feels like they did not really think about PvP at all and put it all together at the final stages of the game after they made the game.
The one thing I've noticed about this game that I kind of appreciate is when they have an big update to the game, they roll out bits and pieces of it before hand. Some point to clues as to what's coming, which is great for the community, but it usually brings in bugs to the current build that were unintended, yet ultimately leads to a more polished update. It's not the greatest, sure, but I'm OK with it most of the time. The most recent batch is more hair pulling than others but I know the team behind it are seriously doing above and beyond what most developers are doing and I'm perfectlyfine with how it's turning out. At the end of the day, it could be worse... this could be a fallout forum.
You can like the game and are allowed to like the game and still not like certain aspects of it. Liking the game does not mean you have no choice but to like everything about it and the choices the devs make despite what otherwise may be true. If everyone liked everything all the time and always said so not matter what, like many fans do, nothing would get better. It just would become worse.
The worse thing for a game is the fans and devs thinking everything is ok, always reassuring each other, and ignoring all others. Many times the truth is loudly ignored out of fear. To some the truth does not matter. If you truly like this game, you should be willing to listen, see, and accept the good and the bad. More importantly be open to everyone and all voices coming together to make it a better sea for all to sail on.
I pirate vs pirate combat (NOT SHIP TO SHIP COMBAT) is one of the more balanced and enjoyable things in the game.
Combat has clear Pros vs Cons:
Pistol vs Blunder vs Eye of reach - All have their distinct niches.
Sword play is great and rewards accurate swings.
Sword lunge is a text book all or nothing, you hit and it's super rewarding or you miss and you get punished.The one issue I have with pirate vs pirate combat is bunny hop spamming.
@x-crowheart-x said in Who is calling the shots with these "updates":
@vorondil1
What will you do mate if if really does not change much? No true transparency, opposite definition of what communication is, and more of the same over a year has trend otherwise.
I among others are hoping things will finally change. I am not ready to lose hope like you... yet. That something truly new and original is really on the horizon. So far it is all shrouded by too much unnecessary fog, long gaps in fixes, and way too much recycled content that says the stormy sea may not calm anytime soon.
Great question! If the mega-update does not add significant new good content, and is generally as disappointing as these "band-aids" have been, then I will join the choir of protestors/complainers for a bit, and then seriously evaluate if I want to keep playing or not. Yes, I hear you -- I guess all things will be revealed in March!
wow, so many insiders who seemingly have not voiced their opinions when testing stuff?
@shinten-rai said in Who is calling the shots with these "updates":
@eva1977 What wave mechanic? The ocean is a empty mess of nothing in this game. It has no life to it besides the shark. People kept going on and on and apparently are still going on about the "ocean" in SoT. The ocean just looks pretty. That is it. Period.
It has no other function in the game other then, well, really nothing. There are lots of other games who banked on being "pretty and shiny" but they all failed. It's like finding a perfect diamond to find out it was just cardboard with a sticker on it to make it look perfect.
the function of it is to facilitate ships and combat on them. Surely we could use some doplhins etc... but its mainly cosmetics. Its like saying "roads in GTA have no purpose".
The game is meant to be slower paced and have that downtime, for the crew to work together, chat and whatnot. If you want constant action maybe fortnight or something similar is a better match for you.and the oceans in the world are empty. (since you seem to be wanting sailing simulator with real world elements)
There are no waves. They have waves on the surface of the water to make it look cool, but it does nothing. It does not affect you, your boat, or game play. The waves do not push your boat. There is no currents in the game. No riptides. No nothing. The sole driving factor of your boat is the wind and only the wind. Once your boat comes to a rest, it will stay there. Even if you go out and drop anchor in the middle of the Wilds with those raging waves and then raise. The boat will stay in the same position and not move.
Its not a sailing simulator afterall.. and there are some ship drifting instances. They could add currents and tiptides, but only in a new part of the world where it would be part of the area. Whole game would problably turn out to be too hard for casual players.
The game has had very large combat problems since launch. The game has already bled out a huge majority of the players since launch due to the combat being bland and un-fun. If the combat was actually fun we would not have people complaining like we do on the forums when they get killed cause even death would be fun if the mechanics surrounding it were enjoyable.
uh, yeah, they just reached new milestones in highest player numbers. Its been tripping dry since the beginning.
I have said before in a post, it feels like they did not really think about PvP at all and put it all together at the final stages of the game after they made the game.
How much PVP you engage in? I mean, cannons work right?
Although I agree that the combat needs further work.
This update is certainly better than the last in terms of the sword. We can actually have a "decent" (as far as it can be with the limited system) sword duel now that the opponent can't just close a gap by mindlessly spamming swipe and running forward. We still lack a parry/risposte style system to give a more consistent but skill gated method of turning the tide. More so than blocking and hoping for the best anyway...
Bunny hopping needs to be addressed yes.
But I'm enjoying running around the ship, swording, and pistoling and not being locked down by 3 mindless drones slashing without any element of strategy or thought.
@mith-bosevem said in Who is calling the shots with these "updates":
Enough is enough. I have never seen before a game take so many sidesteps, mis-steps and backsteps in the course of smoothing out minor bugs and overall fluidity.
With virtually every update we either get more of the same, something worse, or just the same and pvp (which is often something worse, though not always). We have been begging on this forum for combat reform or at least retweaking but instead we get a very small step forward which is then COMPLETELY REMOVED. Instead of pushing forward with combat fluidity and making it fun its gone back to square 0. The combat is slow and boring. There is almost no learning curve at all in PVE combat (bash head against wall, suicide to barrel skelly/run away and shoot, repeat).
Either pvp and pve combat need to be different things or you need to ACTUALLY FIX THE COMBAT.
This is starting to look like a blizzard situation with the devs being clueless to what this community desires.one only needs to refer to the awful inventory 'improvements' that were done in August for cursed cannonballs. the inventory system is still awful.... and we never got any new storage items for the new inventory system... which frankly I never store cursed cannonballs in barrels anyway.
pointless ' improvements'. for the combat system all they needed to do was Nerf insta switch for guns. the sword combat was fine prior to the recent combat patch.
@shinten-rai
So your ship sails without any motion through the waves " that aren't waves"...? Your vision get's never blocked since the "motionless" waves don't push you up nor down? You never missed a shot since the "motionless" ocean pushes you upwards on the wrong moment ....Well, Sir , you are right , your game is broken and you should put in a support ticket...@lucky-monkee The oceans in the world are empty, huh? That is new to me. I am sure oceanographers and marine biologists would love to hear about your startling new discovery that our oceans are empty.
When did I say I wanted constant action? How exactly did you pull that out of thin air from my post? I am very confused at your reply. The person I was responding to was saying no other game has the "wave mechanic". And arguing that this game is great based solely on the fact that is the ocean in it is not a viable way to review or rate a game. The ocean has no life to it. The waves don't move your ship. No currents again. And please no, if they add currents they need to be a map over haul and not isolated in a new region. That would just be insane and not make any sense. It isn't a sailing simulator, but when the ocean has literally no life of it's own and the only thing it does is be the body on which the ship sits and look pretty that is not what I would tote as a selling point of the game.
Oh wow. Really? Is it back up to the 5 million mark? No? Oh then. Give it 2 months. We will see what situation the games population will be in.
I engage in PvP pretty much every session. Cannons are the only fun thing about the PvP. It is the one thing that they did in fact get right. Easy to use but alright skill ceiling to master. But how often does a ship engage in only cannon fire to sink the other ship? Hardly ever. Maybe a poor solo sloop who is sitting at a island or if you catch them off guard while they are on a island. But if it is not from those two situations generally the engagement will end with a crew boarding. Killing and then killing as soon people get back from the ferry. That is how you have to play the game. It is the only way. They have offered no other option. Cannons are fun but you can't really fully sink another ship unless you board them or have a LOT of CCB's.
And that is where we get into the problem. The actual PvP. Pirate vs Pirate is where the combat gets....clunky. Guns don't do enough damage. Swords are very funky. Being able to just run around with no speed decrease and swing wildly. If you hit anything your combo will continue. The close quarters engagements feel like they got stuck on right before the game went to launch with no time to really balance or tweak them. We have already seen them tweak the weapons multiple times since launch. Hit registry is a big issue as well in PvP.
Guns should be a one hit kill, with a very long reload.
Swords should be reworked completely, to be more fluid and not such a spammy mess.@clumsy-george Your's does not as well. Once your ship fully stops the waves will not push your ship through the water. Once that momentum from the wind push goes away your ship is now stopped.
The waves do rock your boat up and down, but that's it. That's all. So much motion in the ocean. Oh and you can completely shoot through the waves too. I can count on hand the times the "ocean" has caused me to miss my shot.
Pirate to Pirate combat is completely awful at this point. Rather than fixing the issues with real solutions Rare continues to try and adjust timers. So far the only fix that was a solid addition was the nerf on hip firing the EoR. That never made sense.
But the sword changes, while part of it is ok, part of it is mind numbing. The freedom of movement even if you miss a hit was a good addition, but the delay if you miss just doesn't work. For anyone that thought spamming sword attack was a problem, you most likely never noticed that you can still do it now. You simply need to hit something, anything, even the floor, and there is no delay. Before this latest added delay was put in place, you already had a delay before, and you could not continue to your three swing attack, unless you hit something. I know of several pirates that teach younger pirates to always hit the floor, walls, rocks anything you have to so that you can keep the attack going. Upping the delay doesn't solve this issue. And truthfully, it is not the real problem in sword attacks.
The real reason swords were overpowering was stun lock. You get hit and you can't move for a second because you are stun locked. Not only that, but you get hit and it cancels whatever you were in the middle of doing such as reloading ammo, making that animation start all over. So now, once stun locked, you can't back away to try and counter attack. Stun lock on swords needs to go. They need to get rid of stun lock on sword attacks to allow you to reposition yourself to counter an attack.
@guldlasse said in Who is calling the shots with these "updates":
@rip-chongy
Yep, but the main part of the community is happy, cus we get a little stupid video each week with nothing in it.exactly this.
I am cherrypicking my answers.
@shinten-rai said in Who is calling the shots with these "updates":
@lucky-monkee The oceans in the world are empty, huh? That is new to me. I am sure oceanographers and marine biologists would love to hear about your startling new discovery that our oceans are empty.
What am I supposed to say to that? go sail on the ocean, then we will talk again.
When you are on a sailboat with no wind. you lose track of everything, everything is empty. Just an empty "field" of sorts. You dont care about the magnificent sealife that is miles below you. And frankly nor does it care about youWhen did I say I wanted constant action? How exactly did you pull that out of thin air from my post? I am very confused at your reply. The person I was responding to was saying no other game has the "wave mechanic". And arguing that this game is great based solely on the fact that is the ocean in it is not a viable way to review or rate a game. The ocean has no life to it. The waves don't move your ship. No currents again. And please no, if they add currents they need to be a map over haul and not isolated in a new region. That would just be insane and not make any sense. It isn't a sailing simulator, but when the ocean has literally no life of it's own and the only thing it does is be the body on which the ship sits and look pretty that is not what I would tote as a selling point of the game.
the game is not being sold as "the sea is full of life", "the sea moves you", "the wild waves will be wild" or something like it.
just wondering, what would you do with tides? what does that change? to make it intresing there has to be areas that will be perhaps tricky when done with low tide etc... that needs a whole new area with that built in mind. same with currents.So yes, its pointless to have it in the game when it has no effect to gameplay. And currently sailing for some players is still tricky enough... not everyone wants hyperealism.
Oh wow. Really? Is it back up to the 5 million mark? No? Oh then. Give it 2 months. We will see what situation the games population will be in.
I remember the good old days, (prolly 30days or so in) and people were saying the game would be dead since the streamers have gone away etc. I would recommend googling Blind Bulgarian clairvoyant Vanga.
I engage in PvP pretty much every session. Cannons are the only fun thing about the PvP. It is the one thing that they did in fact get right. Easy to use but alright skill ceiling to master. But how often does a ship engage in only cannon fire to sink the other ship? Hardly ever. Maybe a poor solo sloop who is sitting at a island or if you catch them off guard while they are on a island. But if it is not from those two situations generally the engagement will end with a crew boarding. Killing and then killing as soon people get back from the ferry. That is how you have to play the game. It is the only way. They have offered no other option. Cannons are fun but you can't really fully sink another ship unless you board them or have a LOT of CCB's.
I might be the only one in the world then who sinks ships with cannonfire and lets nobody board my ship. So basically no close combat is being done on my part. And its usually not millions of cannonballs either.
I am gonna back off here and say I am playing the game wrong.
Guns should be a one hit kill, with a very long reload.
And that is udder nonsense. Sorry.
I wish cannonshots would be one hit, one ship sunk.@mith-bosevem said in Who is calling the shots with these "updates":
Enough is enough. I have never seen before a game take so many sidesteps, mis-steps and backsteps in the course of smoothing out minor bugs and overall fluidity.
Rare are aware of possible issues. Sea of Thieves is a Game as Service and content, tweaks and management of the game will take place continuously.
Not only this but Rare and Joe have made mention of the fact that this might happen due to the sheer amount of background work which is being done in order to prepare for the huge update we're due to be told about on March 20th. Not only that but we know they've been working on the functionality which allows Insiders to sign up for the Pioneer testing.
At various places in this Dev Update video Joe talks about combat, current voyages, background work, pioneers testing -
Official Sea of Thieves Developer Update: February 14th 2019
With virtually every update we either get more of the same, something worse, or just the same and pvp (which is often something worse, though not always). We have been begging on this forum for combat reform or at least retweaking but instead we get a very small step forward which is then COMPLETELY REMOVED. Instead of pushing forward with combat fluidity and making it fun its gone back to square 0. The combat is slow and boring. There is almost no learning curve at all in PVE combat (bash head against wall, suicide to barrel skelly/run away and shoot, repeat).
Either pvp and pve combat need to be different things or you need to ACTUALLY FIX THE COMBAT.Combat is being reworked. This isn't an instant process, particularly if you're also monitoring feedback and data around the changes.
It's also mentioned in a couple of places, both the overall view of the combat changes and the fact it's going to be an ongoing process with minimal tweaks at a time to ensure the focus is on the effect of that particular tweak and it is still in progress -At 0:30
And here at around 3:50 -
Official Sea of Thieves Developer Update: January 30th 2019And here -
https://www.seaofthieves.com/forum/topic/80556/combat-balancing-changes
I think patience is key here, you'll even have the opportunity to give specific feedback if you choose to take part in Pioneer sessions.
I understand the tweaking but they shouldn't push it in a bad state as they've done twice now. So people raise some issues with updates and instead of working on those issues they change even more things in an unpolished state? That's honestly a mistake because people will quit playing.
My hope is that Rare doesn't take a lot of pride in this because we dearly love the game. It is a game with the greatest potential in the market right now I believe. This could potentially become the next succes story if they want and they really are screwing it up right now by screwing with the core mechanics. They're being a bit too careless imo
I agree and I don't know if you've seen the list of fixes which came in this week's Patch notes?
The onus is also on us to ensure we report any bugs we find and we've had an insight into the process provided by SonicBob elsewhere, it really is important so essential work can be prioritised.
"For a little insight behind the scenes - All the bug reports are collated and passed to our internal test team for Review, Repro and Assigning out to the team/individual best served to fix the issue.
With each team our Leads are triaging bugs and assessing priority against new work at all times, we certainly aren't ignoring these - however will always have the challenge of balancing bug fixing based on their impact against new and exciting work!
We also see what is trending on our Forums/Social & Reddit and add bugs to our backlog as required. We certainly don't need another format for visualizing bugs - we have a pretty well defined process for our reports!
Sorry you don't feel like your bug is being addressed, it's more likely a prioritization call based on upcoming work."
Source for context: https://www.reddit.com/r/Seaofthieves/comments/api3b6/do_we_have_a_way_to_convey_a_bug_report_list_to/eg8khoe/I agree and I don't know if you've seen the list of fixes which came in this week's Patch notes?
The onus is also on us to ensure we report any bugs we find and we've had an insight into the process provided by SonicBob elsewhere, it really is important so essential work can be prioritised.
"For a little insight behind the scenes - All the bug reports are collated and passed to our internal test team for Review, Repro and Assigning out to the team/individual best served to fix the issue.
With each team our Leads are triaging bugs and assessing priority against new work at all times, we certainly aren't ignoring these - however will always have the challenge of balancing bug fixing based on their impact against new and exciting work!
We also see what is trending on our Forums/Social & Reddit and add bugs to our backlog as required. We certainly don't need another format for visualizing bugs - we have a pretty well defined process for our reports!
Sorry you don't feel like your bug is being addressed, it's more likely a prioritization call based on upcoming work."
Source for context: https://www.reddit.com/r/Seaofthieves/comments/api3b6/do_we_have_a_way_to_convey_a_bug_report_list_to/eg8khoe/I mean it would be great if this would give some kind of assurance but the fact that they balanced things in such a bad direction is a problem in itself, and i'm worried that they won't revert some of the decisions like the weird delays. The delays are such a bad solution to the issues that were called out. I really hope they reconsider this because it has ruined the fluidity of the core game.
Other than that I am hopeful about the quoted words but.. I'm not getting the right signals as of now
@lucky-monkee 1. Have you ever sailed on the ocean? I have, sounds like you haven't by the way you speak. Yeah, it has a life of its own on the surface. It isn't just a big empty field as you so inelegantly put it. A big wave will never actually crash over your boat in SoT, you will always stay on the exact crest and only ever get spray that comes over the sides. You won't see a whirlpool. You won't see a waterspout. You don't have any convergence of where the different seas start and stop. You don't have any type of bioluminescence in the ocean. In SoT, yes, the ocean is a big field of nothing. In real life, it is anything but. On surface and below. If I am on a sailboat with no wind, the ocean just doesn't stop being the ocean because there is no wind.
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First, I like how you had to pull something I did not even say or suggest and use that to try and make the suggestion of currents not work. Tides obviously wouldn't work in a game where days are scant minutes long. But why would you say currents wouldn't work because of your own imposed analogy? Currents can be easily be placed in the total SoT ocean. It's not like they change direction or whatever lol. They could be used for more efficient sailing. Escapes, ambushes. Rip currents could be a thing around shores so if you wanted to fight that mermaid statue or go swim around looking for treasure it adds another element of danger and well, life, in the other wise lifeless ocean in SoT.
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Yeah, I remember the good old days too. I remember all the posts complaining about the game. I remember when they purged the forums to wipe it clean. You remember when SoT got put on discount? Remember when they stopped advertising it so hard for game pass? Remember when they offered the game for free for a weekend? Then remember when the offered it free for 7 days plus a discount for buying the game? Oh...that just happened. That's right.
Look, the game was in a very bad spot pretty much since launched till Shrouded Spoils came out. It still isn't in a very good one right now either but it is better then where it was. Trying to pretend that game is not at a healthy population is not going to help the game a single bit. Is it dead? No, but it is hemorrhaging more players than those that stay.
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Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight. So no one has boarded your boat ever. Every ship you have sunk, you have not boarded their boat period and solely sunk them only with cannons. And by you, I mean your crew by extension. So your crew does not board the other boat. You only sink them by cannon fire, only. Every encounter? Bold claim.
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Yes, equating the cannons be a one shot kill to ships is the equivalent of being shot by a gun. The logic you use is so sublime. I can taste it.
You try and wave away all of my points using vague dismissals with a very bland sense of humor and bad sarcasm.
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Official Sea of Thieves Developer Update: February 20th 2019
