@dlchief58 Muh skill ceiling
Why Sea of Thieves is Dying:
@realstyli This is classic casual cope. The game wasn’t always just a “silly goofy pirate game,” but Rare has slowly pushed it in that direction by constantly shrinking the skill gap and throwing obstacles at those who actually want to improve. PvP in Sea of Thieves used to have depth – players who mastered movement, shooting, and strategy had a chance to dominate. Now? Every casual who just mashes the sword spam button acts like PvP has no place in this game.
Yeah, player numbers fluctuate, but just because the game is still running doesn’t mean it hasn’t declined. A lot of people who loved PvP quit because Rare decided to turn this into a “friendly experience” instead of a competitive sandbox. Arena? Rare killed it by ignoring it, not because “it wasn’t popular.” Hourglass? Casuals complain that it’s too “sweaty,” but the reality is that PvP in Sea of Thieves was always about life-or-death battles, not who can roleplay a Disneyland pirate better.
So no, people didn’t leave because “PvP is too tryhard.” They left because Rare is slowly killing everything that made PvP in this game interesting.
@d3adst1ck This is typical casual cope. Yeah, the game isn’t purely a deathmatch or naval combat sim, but PvP is an integral part of it. Every PvE-focused update automatically creates more opportunities for PvP – whether casual players want to admit it or not.
This game has always been about who can claim loot and defend it. Just because some people want to play peacefully without risk doesn’t mean the game should cater to their vision. Sea of Thieves is NOT a single-player chill simulator for fishing and roleplay, no matter how badly some wish it were.
The only thing Rare cares about is making money off new players and constantly adding things to the Emporium because they know casuals will eat it up. The actual quality of the game takes a backseat – instead, we get pointless PvE content and more overpriced cosmetics while core PvP players, the ones who have stuck with the game for years, keep getting nerfed.
@mslechtic15 said in Why Sea of Thieves is Dying::
The only thing Rare cares about is making money off new players and constantly adding things to the Emporium because they know casuals will eat it up. The actual quality of the game takes a backseat – instead, we get pointless PvE content and more overpriced cosmetics while core PvP players, the ones who have stuck with the game for years, keep getting nerfed.
Huh ? Those "core PvP players" can't be the ones who stuck with the game for years and leave the game with every "pvp nerf" at the same time.
@mslechtic15 said in Why Sea of Thieves is Dying::
@d3adst1ck This is typical casual cope. Yeah, the game isn’t purely a deathmatch or naval combat sim, but PvP is an integral part of it. Every PvE-focused update automatically creates more opportunities for PvP – whether casual players want to admit it or not.
This game has always been about who can claim loot and defend it. Just because some people want to play peacefully without risk doesn’t mean the game should cater to their vision. Sea of Thieves is NOT a single-player chill simulator for fishing and roleplay, no matter how badly some wish it were.
So we agree then?
The only thing Rare cares about is making money off new players and constantly adding things to the Emporium because they know casuals will eat it up. The actual quality of the game takes a backseat – instead, we get pointless PvE content and more overpriced cosmetics while core PvP players, the ones who have stuck with the game for years, keep getting nerfed.
Rare needs money to keep the game running. There are a lot more evil things they could do if their entire focus was to extract dollars from players. I think they've been pretty fair with the Emporium, though I don't care to purchase much from there, but I don't have a problem with it.
The "pointless PvE" just keeps the opportunities for PvP alive, so I don't think it's entirely pointless. Your back-and-forth arguing with your own points really defeats your ability to make a cohesive argument.
@lem0n-curry Yeah, that’s true, it’s a bit of a paradox. When players who have loved the game for years start getting frustrated with nerfs, it means something’s wrong. PvP players who’ve been around for a long time often leave because they feel like their experience is being ruined by constant changes that limit their skills and strategy. If the game still doesn’t cater to those who defined it, it’s hard to call it anything but a problem. These are the players who kept the game alive while it grew.
@mslechtic15 All I'm hearing is complaints about supposed skill gaps/"techs" from exploit usage. I'm glad Rare doesn't cater to PvP players as much as other games tbh. If the game were entirely PvP based, and nothing else, I'd maybe agree- but it's PvPvE. The current formula works as it should, and SoT doesn't need to be like every other FPS that allows/rewards it's tryhard community that learns to mash their keyboards a bit faster than others.
Won't deny bugs and other issues need to be fixed, but all this blubbering about skill gap, and whining because Rare patched out your little exploits is silly - if you need exploits and animation cancels to artificially enhance your gameplay, that's a you problem.
@d3adst1ck Your defense of Rare is just an excuse. The fact that the game needs money doesn’t mean you should justify every bad decision. The Emporium is full of items that just grab players’ attention and money, instead of Rare fixing things that actually impact gameplay. Yes, PvE can sometimes create opportunities for PvP, but most of those updates are just filler that doesn’t improve the core gaming experience.
Rare, instead of focusing on balancing and improving PvP, is just trying to attract casual players and make money off them. When the PvP community, which defined the game, starts leaving, it’s a clear sign something’s wrong. And the fact that you keep repeating the excuse about the Emporium doesn’t change that. If they wanted to, they could put more effort into fixes and improvements instead of just draining money from players
@mslechtic15 said in Why Sea of Thieves is Dying::
The only thing Rare cares about is making money off new players and constantly adding things to the Emporium because they know casuals will eat it up. The actual quality of the game takes a backseat – instead, we get pointless PvE content and more overpriced cosmetics while core PvP players, the ones who have stuck with the game for years, keep getting nerfed.
The one thing that Rare has ALWAYS been consistent on is that they run an ethical gaming business with SoT.
The worst thing that live service games regularly do by design is manipulate design to take advantage of gamblers and to increase their chances of creating gamblers in their game.
SoT very much does not do that and has never done that.
They gotta pay the bills and the emporium is a fair way to do that. Most importantly, it's an ethical way to do that.
@mslechtic15 said in Why Sea of Thieves is Dying::
@d3adst1ck Your defense of Rare is just an excuse. The fact that the game needs money doesn’t mean you should justify every bad decision.
At no point did I do that.
Rare, instead of focusing on balancing and improving PvP, is just trying to attract casual players and make money off them. When the PvP community, which defined the game, starts leaving, it’s a clear sign something’s wrong. And the fact that you keep repeating the excuse about the Emporium doesn’t change that. If they wanted to, they could put more effort into fixes and improvements instead of just draining money from players
The fact that open PvP exists kind of nullifies your argument that they are only focused on casual play. They've made more changes to balance PvP in the last year or two than they have in the previous 5, even adding more weapons to the mix.
@d3adst1ck Do you think anyone actually uses the new weapons 💀? And what other changes have we gotten in PvP? It’s mostly just nerfs.
@mslechtic15 said in Why Sea of Thieves is Dying::
@d3adst1ck Do you think anyone actually uses the new weapons 💀? And what other changes have we gotten in PvP? It’s mostly just nerfs.
The funny part about this is that they have made me ridiculously stronger as a long time solo because they open up different types of skill sets.
I get more wins with the harpoon/blow pipe with naval first than I ever did with any of the original weapons and knives are great too.
I generally stunk at the original weapons because that is a very specific style of play. I didn't have the interest or talent for it.
Blowpipe and harpoon paired together make an entirely different skillset useful in SoT for a solo in defense pvp.
I'm not pro harpoon against solos/sloops by bigger crews but I think it's great for solos against bigger crews.
@d3adst1ck said in Why Sea of Thieves is Dying::
Any update around PvE is just more opportunity for fighting over loot and stealing. As much as you would like it to be, this game isn't a Deathmatch or Naval combat simulator even though it can have those things periodically.
It is primarily about going out, getting some treasure (by finding or stealing it), and then trying to make it back to port. Updates that feed that game loop are always going to be prioritized because it's the game's main strength.
This isn't true. S7 & S11 both made adventure PvP harder to execute and gave runners many more tools to escape. Sovs made selling significantly faster, effectively ensuring any player that made it to an outpost was safe. Season 11 introduced diving which is the most exploitable mechanic, allowing players to just leave the server entirely whenever a ship is on the horizon. Diving also effectively removed loot stacks. There wasn't every anything introduced to rebalance the game back towards the PvPvE nature after these updates, and I'm not holding my breath that there ever will be.
@fysics3037 Let's not ignore the fact that diving takes away all loot you may have on your ship that is yet to be sold. There's also a cooldown for diving unless you complete the task you voted for in order to dive. Add to that the inability to dive if a ship is within x range. Don't try to present it as a quick and easy way to escape PvP with no drawbacks or boundaries because that would be a misrepresentation.
@fysics3037 I would say diving isn't the end all/be all that you're making it out to be. If you dive, there are cooldowns, limitations of when/where you can do it (if a ship is within 2 squares, you can't dive), and above all you lose all loot if you dive.
While Sovs do make selling loot easier, it's still no less preventable/predictable - a good PvP crew can anticipate where someone will try and sell, and can send boarders/swimmers to the outpost.
@fysics3037 said in Why Sea of Thieves is Dying::
This isn't true. S7 & S11 both made adventure PvP harder to execute and gave runners many more tools to escape. Sovs made selling significantly faster, effectively ensuring any player that made it to an outpost was safe. Season 11 introduced diving which is the most exploitable mechanic, allowing players to just leave the server entirely whenever a ship is on the horizon. Diving also effectively removed loot stacks. There wasn't every anything introduced to rebalance the game back towards the PvPvE nature after these updates, and I'm not holding my breath that there ever will be.
A lot of convenience adds have for sure shortened the end portion of the loop, but I wouldn't necessarily call it safe. I don't think diving is that much of a problem with the restrictions it has upon how often you can use it and when, and it's actually less exploitable for escaping than the Tall Tale portals which don't have those restrictions.
I think a bigger problem causing ships to evacuate servers is the ever increasing number of markers that appear on the map table. You basically get a fully functioning threat radar, which allows you to choose to change servers if there's something that could be a problem way before you should know about it.
Get rid of the markers, and add restrictions to being able to use the Tall Tale portals (or turn it into a dive and get rid of the arches completely) and I think balance would shift back towards the middle.
@d3adst1ck You say that changes to PvP and new weapon additions mean that PvP is getting plenty of attention, except these changes to PvP have diminished it more frequently than improved it.
Let's start a list for everyone to look at:
Knives and Blowguns create massive amounts of lag because of their persistent projectile nature. We've banned that from our games because of that.
Blunder changes effectively killed the weapon that had been used by everyone for 5 years. The one shot being removed was controversial but overall fine, however the changes to spread destroyed the weapon. Also the changes to knock back made it incredibly frustrating to play against.
Harpoon Gun became an instant problem because just one boarder getting on your boat at that level can be ggs. That one's banned.
It's not that these are all inherently bad changes. Like for a casual the knives, blowgun, and harpoon gun are fine. But from the standpoint of a top player, most of these changes are meaningless or do more harm than good. To claim that "PvP is getting plenty of attention" is ignorant of the different tiers of PvP players. For a top level player, it's meaningless
The only change that has been actually good for top level play is the buff to DBs charge shot, and the addition of DB in general. Although it is generally worse than all other options so it's not a great change. But it's good enough.
@wolfmanbush This. Throwing Knives have been a lot of fun, and have quickly become a staple in my arsenal. Gotten so good with them, that I confidently use them, alongside cutlass, when I used to exclusively be EoR/Cutlass.
@mopwieldinghedgehog diving is 10x more effective than running/red sea-ing was, if they have eyes. I think the diving mechanic is fine for quick sessions, but shouldn't be the main way to play, due to it's heavy impact on the PvPvE sandbox SoT is supposed to be. It'd be ignorant to say that the sandbox wasn't more "alive" pre-season 11
@d3adst1ck I don't, and I think many people share this opinion, want to get into a full fight over 80k worth of loot. Because diving has become the main way to play you're effectively guaranteed to only find ships with one voyage worth of loot. And that loot is only for one trading company. And trying to do WEs normally doesn't work because if someone ever dove to it, you get the wrong loot pool and your time has just been wasted. There is no argument that diving hasn't had a negative impact on the PvPvE nature of the sandbox. I don't agree with your solutions, and I don't think the point of this thread is to talk about solutions for that problem. I just want you to recognize it's not like the PvP community has just been "left alone" with the tools we had.
To be clear, I like diving as a "faster SoT" but it should not be the "default SoT". Players should be encouraged to play normally over diving if they have the time. It shouldn't even really be a choice, just make it so abundantly obvious that not diving is significantly better.
@fysics3037 I don't think a lot of ships are diving after every voyage. It's simply not effective or efficient to sell & dive every time, especially with how short the voyages are now and if you're an emissary. Ships stop stacking or dive if they see something on the map (reaper/burning blade) or if they know they are going to appear on the map (emissary / grade 5 guild) because of the disadvantage you suffer from having a locator stuck to you or other ships.
@d3adst1ck said in Why Sea of Thieves is Dying::
@fysics3037 I don't think a lot of ships are diving after every voyage. It's simply not effective or efficient to sell & dive every time, especially with how short the voyages are now and if you're an emissary. Ships stop stacking or dive if they see something on the map (reaper/burning blade) or if they know they are going to appear on the map (emissary / grade 5 guild) because of the disadvantage you suffer from having a locator stuck to you or other ships.
Something they did well in season 15 specifically is they had a decent timer for the new megs. So people can organically farm them on a server without needing extra dives.
By time one is harvested and the loot is sold there is another one.
A lot of diving is still gonna happen for random reasons and for comm reasons but the new megs are an example of good design for organic play on servers.
@wolfmanbush it's definitely something that needs to be improved further. Just adding one thing a season isn't going to work.
@fysics3037 If that's the way you truly see it, shouldn't it be an advantage for those seeking a fight? Would it not be preferable to have them vanish the second they see you over having to chase them for 30 minutes only to have them red sea the loot and rob you of a fight anyway? Logically, if diving was used in the way you describe, you'll be wasting less time trying to find someone willing to engage in a fight.
(I still don't agree with the idea of diving being a qiuck and easy 'escape PvP encounter' feature, just for clarity)
@fysics3037 said in Why Sea of Thieves is Dying::
@wolfmanbush it's definitely something that needs to be improved further. Just adding one thing a season isn't going to work.
There is always a lot of context and history with how I view the big picture in SoT.
I got 5 grade 5 hunter flags for my comm in one day in season 15. That's through organic play and not sinking inexperienced players.
It took me years to organically get 5 grade 5 athena flags lol
15 is just more active, a lot more interest because of the theme that is more in line with the foundation of the game.
I'm not a goal post mover. I wanted stronger organic activity in the game and that was delivered in 15. Better season than 14, 13, 12, 11, 10.
@mslechtic15 said in Why Sea of Thieves is Dying::
@lem0n-curry Yeah, that’s true, it’s a bit of a paradox. When players who have loved the game for years start getting frustrated with nerfs, it means something’s wrong. PvP players who’ve been around for a long time often leave because they feel like their experience is being ruined by constant changes that limit their skills and strategy. If the game still doesn’t cater to those who defined it, it’s hard to call it anything but a problem. These are the players who kept the game alive while it grew.
I think you're overestimating the numbers of those PvP players; they might have driven more people away from Arena, Hourglass or even the game in general.
In mu experience I encountered less of those people in Adventure than people who were more PvPvE oriented; the low percentage (2%) of playtime in Arena would also seem to confirm that.
No way they were the people who "kept it alive".@mopwieldinghedgehog Not all players ran, because it wasn't convineient. And a well managed ship could catch them. And regardless it was more interesting than the person just leaving. It's not about the loot per hour to me, I can make 10 mil in one session of HG, it's about whether or not it's fun. Diving has made the game considerably less fun, and no countermeasures to rebalance the rest of the game after diving have been taken.
@mslechtic15
This is typical casual cope.
This is typical 'Casuals ruin muh games!' crying.
instead, we get pointless PvE content
It's not pointless just because you don't like it.
It may surprise the PvP crowd, but games aren't made solely for them.The last game to go pure open-world PvP was New World...And PvP players showed how horrid of an idea that was.
They were camping new players on the starting beaches so badly that the developers had to do a complete 180 & add PvE content & limit PvP to opt-in.core PvP players, the ones who have stuck with the game for years, keep getting nerfed.
Losing exploits is not 'getting nerfed'.
It's called 'No longer being able to cheat'.Yes, PvE can sometimes create opportunities for PvP, but most of those updates are just filler that doesn’t improve the core gaming experience.
When the PvP community, which defined the game, starts leaving, it’s a clear sign something’s wrong.And there's the 'PvP is inherently more important' mindset I loathe.
PvP is not the 'core experience'.
PvP players are not the only ones who 'defined the game'.All that is, is the typical 'PvP is better than PvE' superiority complex.
@lem0n-curry having top players around is very important. We're content creators that remind people of the game. We're "goals" that players aspire to reach. We're "cheat catchers" that provide a barrier between cheaters and newer players in hourglass. We're "exploit busters" that take down players abusing bugs. Getting rid of us hurts the game. It makes hourglass queues longer. It makes cheaters more bold. It lets players get away with more exploits. It hurts the media presence of the game. Getting rid of all those benefits so a few players don't get sunk is silly, don't you think?
@fysics3037 said in Why Sea of Thieves is Dying::
@lem0n-curry having top players around is very important. We're content creators that remind people of the game. We're "goals" that players aspire to reach. We're "cheat catchers" that provide a barrier between cheaters and newer players in hourglass. We're "exploit busters" that take down players abusing bugs. Getting rid of us hurts the game. It makes hourglass queues longer. It makes cheaters more bold. It lets players get away with more exploits. It hurts the media presence of the game. Getting rid of all those benefits so a few players don't get sunk is silly, don't you think?
LOL, someone is sure full of themselves. Try sticking to facts instead of artificially inflating your perceived "importance" to the game's survival.
Oh and for those of you falsely claiming "the game is dying". I'll leave you with this. The game sitting at #24 in the most played games after all these years is hardly "dying", as it has held pretty steady over the years.
@dlchief58 said in Why Sea of Thieves is Dying::
I'll leave you with this. The game sitting at #24 in the most played games after all these years is hardly "dying", as it has held pretty steady over the years.
Can really feel this on the controller servers. It really is a different world than the servers that many of the feedback/content creator regs are on. I know that because I play both and it's night and day.
It's very obvious on console/controller preferred servers that things are going very well in SoT for a 7+ year old game. And that's organic activity. People organically farming, organically creating random alliances. Doing stuff outside of trying to control the scenario/outcome.
A lot more experience as well. I find way more challenging fights with random players on the controller preferred servers.
@wolfmanbush Take back that pro players play with blowpipe – you probably don’t know who a pro player is, and against pro players, you’d get crushed without using double gun
@dlchief58 those literally are facts? I'm done talking with you. Clearly not interested in talking, just interested in denying the truth.
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