A fresh look at mermaids

@ricewynd I appreciate it. Can you think of anything that might improve it or that could be expanded on. I wanted to make sure it was easy to understand for a lore perspective as well as fluid in game.

"Yeah the mermaids will help you out, but if you ask for help too much then they start to get angry and demand a sacrifice."

...they made it so, if near an enemy ship. 90% they wont spawn. At all.

So either you are doing something wrong or...idk but they dont spawn that often anymore.

@burnbacon Wrong.. they said the mermaids were "fixed" - but that is not the case. Seems to be the same frequency as before the announcement.

I really like this idea. I'm a huge fan of things that add to the lore of the world and have desperately wanted more integration of the mermaids as a whole. I really like the esthetic of the mermaid statues in the TTs and would love to see them at islands normally. Since mermaid gems are easy enough to come by, I feel it's a fair trade as a death penalty. I feel it also encourages personal growth in the individual players by challenging them to change their tactics during battle.

@burnbacon I have to agree with @RealFickFace from my experiences

@burnbacon the problem isnt the mermaids spawning near your ship but being able to spawn an infinite ammount of times without the player getting a penalty or without the mermaids getting angry

By the way, I think this is a terrible idea and once again something that would punish players who engage in PvP

@realfickface it only punishes those who carelessly attempt to board another ship, while encouraging smarter cannon and ship play leading to a more diverse meta game.

Edit: i would argue that it encourages pvp as those fleeing their persuers would no longer be able to send wave after wave of boarders as well.

@rattlyfob a dit dans A fresh look at mermaids :

@realfickface it only punishes those who carelessly attempt to board another ship, while encouraging smarter cannon and ship play leading to a more diverse meta game.

Good boarders don't try to board "carelessly". When I try to board another ship I'm making sure that my crew is ok with that and can manage whatever is happening on the ship. Boarders that try to board "carelessly" are boarders that get killed in a matter of seconds and try to board when they should stay on their ship.

IMO, there's no need to add a weird mechanism about the mermaids all of a sudden getting angry.
Do you know how many times I board other ships in a session ? A lot. Like a lot, a lot. And I don't miss that often, I just like to board and others crews don't watch their ladders.
Do you know how many times my ship sinks during a session? Not a lot, last time was when FOTD launched.
So during a session that can last 3-4 hours, with your system, I'd only be able to use the mermaids 5 times before having to spend loot on it or scuttle ? Counting the times I can fall off by accident ?

Also, not having a mermaid spawning also means no-one knows when someone is trying to board or when someone is tucking. And I can always alt-f4 and rejoin my session to spawn back on the ship if I miss the ladder.

No, I'm really not "on board" with that idea (ahah).

@papy-pitch fair points, but if you look at the lore there are both good and bad mermaids. In lieu of adding a new emergant enemy type this would be a good way to add them.

If you are as good at boarding as you claim then tou would be perfectly happy with this :) as you must not use mermaids often.

This only punishes people that use the mermaids excessively while still allowing players to use a common piece of loot to get more. The l
mermaids become a resource like cannon balls and planks.

This encourages those who try to board to do so in a smarter manner and rewards those of you who already board well by introducing a skill gap

@octopus-lime with 5 trips per crew member, you could still implement that plan by rotating who is going to get the resources. Beyond that, it isnt hard to find the gems and a quick stop will let you pay off your debt to the mermaid.

It simply becomes a matter of how much is that time worth? Do you want to use a mermaid or would you rather stop the ship to stock up on resources.

@rattlyfob a dit dans A fresh look at mermaids :

@papy-pitch fair points, but if you look at the lore there are both good and bad mermaids. In lieu of adding a new emergant enemy type this would be a good way to add them.

If you are as good at boarding as you claim then tou would be perfectly happy with this :) as you must not use mermaids often.

No, it does not make me happy. During a regular session of 3-4 hours, it just doesn't allow my crew to defend itself the way we want. Not missing the ladder "often" doesn't mean I always get it, I can miss, it happens. In the time-span of the session, we have a lot of pvp-encounters and not being able to board at the end of the session because I already got the mermaid 5 times during the last 4 hours is way too much punishing. Paying for it (because that's what it is) doesn't make any sense too as you don't pay for a "service" in this game, never.

New players falling off the ships and not knowing how this system works will just get confused too and think they encountered a bug.
And what are you doing about people getting knocked off by random canon-shots by skeletons on islands ? Or by skeleton sloops/galleon ? I'm sure they'll be thrilled to see their mermaid not showing up and them not being able to help their crew.

This only punishes people that use the mermaids excessively while still allowing players to use a common piece of loot to get more. The l
mermaids become a resource like cannon balls and planks.

But why do we need to punish people using the mermaids ? What's the end goal here ? Did you get boarded a lot of time lately and you lost treasure to boarders ? So you try to find a "solution" to this and make it like it's a problem while also saying "it's not a problem" ? Like seen here:

Now, nothing is wrong with this play style inherently, boarding can be a lot of fun.

So what's the problem ?

But it takes relatively a low ammount of skill

No it does not ! It takes skill to board efficiently ! Way more skill actually than what it takes to prevent boarding ! It's incredibly difficult to board a crew when they're watching their ladders !

and without a limit it is usually the go to meathod of engaging ships.

If it's the go-to method then you should know that boarders will be coming and prepare accordingly. That's what my crew does when we choose to attack someone.
Yet, a lot of crew don't watch their ladders or they aren't listening to splash in the waters, if they did, my life would be much harder. It really doesn't take that much to take care of boarders. If you do this, let them send their crew, this only advantages you.

This encourages those who try to board to do so in a smarter manner and rewards those of you who already board well by introducing a skill gap

No it does not "encourage" boarders to try to board in a "smarter manner".
It prevents them from doing so. And it gives the other crew less things to worry about, if anything, your system lowers the overall skill-gap of the game. You're using positive words to justify the implementation of a rule in a "no rules, only tools" game.
And again, your system can be exploited by using alt-f4 and rejoining my session.
There's a lot of things in your system that just doesn't work and can be exploited.

@papy-pitch said in A fresh look at mermaids:

@rattlyfob a dit dans A fresh look at mermaids :

@papy-pitch fair points, but if you look at the lore there are both good and bad mermaids. In lieu of adding a new emergant enemy type this would be a good way to add them.

If you are as good at boarding as you claim then tou would be perfectly happy with this :) as you must not use mermaids often.

No, it does not make me happy. During a regular session of 3-4 hours, it just doesn't allow my crew to defend itself the way we want. Not missing the ladder "often" doesn't mean I always get it, I can miss, it happens. In the time-span of the session, we have a lot of pvp-encounters and not being able to board at the end of the session because I already got the mermaid 5 times during the last 4 hours is way too much punishing. Paying for it (because that's what it is) doesn't make any sense too as you don't pay for a "service" in this game, never.

As the mermaids are a convenience it would be paying for that and not a service. (You can still respawn on your ship if you die.) It is just a matter of how much is that time worth? There are plenty of games that have a system such as this (red dead redemption and elder scrolls online to name a few)

New players falling off the ships and not knowing how this system works will just get confused too and think they encountered a bug.
And what are you doing about people getting knocked off by random canon-shots by skeletons on islands ? Or by skeleton sloops/galleon ? I'm sure they'll be thrilled to see their mermaid not showing up and them not being able to help their crew.

1. new players would have it as their base line so they wouldnt think it was a bug. Returning players and new players could all get a turorial like pop up on their screen to help explain the new mechanic.
2. getting knocked off your ship should be dangerous, and played around. Remaining members of your crew can always stop the ship to let you back on, and dying is always an option.

This only punishes people that use the mermaids excessively while still allowing players to use a common piece of loot to get more. The l
mermaids become a resource like cannon balls and planks.

But why do we need to punish people using the mermaids ? What's the end goal here ? Did you get boarded a lot of time lately and you lost treasure to boarders ? So you try to find a "solution" to this and make it like it's a problem while also saying "it's not a problem" ? Like seen here:

Now, nothing is wrong with this play style inherently, boarding can be a lot of fun.

So what's the problem ?

The problem is a stale meta game that encourages a linear play style. As close to 70% of ships open with boarding attempt on boarding attempt there needs to be somthing to discourage them from doing so. As it stands, boarding is the correct play style (the one the meta favors the most) all I want is ti encourage other play styles without implementing somthing like the vengeance system to give players an advantage.

But it takes relatively a low ammount of skill

No it does not ! It takes skill to board efficiently ! Way more skill actually than what it takes to prevent boarding ! It's incredibly difficult to board a crew when they're watching their ladders !

and without a limit it is usually the go to meathod of engaging ships.

If it's the go-to method then you should know that boarders will be coming and prepare accordingly. That's what my crew does when we choose to attack someone.
Yet, a lot of crew don't watch their ladders or they aren't listening to splash in the waters, if they did, my life would be much harder. It really doesn't take that much to take care of boarders. If you do this, let them send their crew, this only advantages you.

If this was implemented, the decrease in boarders would also decrease the expectation of boarding ;) making your job easier and again, encouraging people to use it smarter.

This encourages those who try to board to do so in a smarter manner and rewards those of you who already board well by introducing a skill gap

No it does not "encourage" boarders to try to board in a "smarter manner".
It prevents them from doing so. And it gives the other crew less things to worry about, if anything, your system lowers the overall skill-gap of the game. You're using positive words to justify the implementation of a rule in a "no rules, only tools" game.>

Its a rule in the same way that health is a rule. You can only get hit so many times before you die and in a simular fashion you can only attempt to board and fail so many times before you have to drown and respawn to get back on board.

And again, your system can be exploited by using alt-f4 and rejoining my session.
There's a lot of things in your system that just doesn't work and can be exploited.

If you rejoin a session, they can just keep track of your mermaid uses. Ie, track it with the ship.

God I hate how this "quote" system works
Anyway back to the subject:

@rattlyfob a dit dans A fresh look at mermaids :

As the mermaids are a convenience it would be paying for that and not a service. (You can still respawn on your ship if you die.)
It is just a matter of how much is that time worth?

Meaning you'll have to wait for a shark to pop and do it's job or drown. Sharks can take a huge amount of time to spawn and drowning is also pretty slow. I fail to see how that's a fun mechanic.
Lags, rubber-banding (especially when a new update is out) and other bugs can happen too, meaning you can fell off the ship more easily. Your system would also punish players when that happens and a lot of people would get angry to have to either: wait for death, quit the game or go to another random location with a shrine to use their loot and loose 50% of the gold only to being able for one crew-member, to respawn. Neither of those 3 things are interesting or compelling.

There are plenty of games that have a system such as this (red dead redemption and elder scrolls online to name a few)

RDR and TESO are not SOT. Why is that an argument in the first place ? Other games has a specific system so SOT should apply it ? Well, no.

new players would have it as their base line so they wouldnt think it was a bug. Returning players and new players could all get a turorial like pop up on their screen to help explain the new mechanic.

Ok, on that one.

getting knocked off your ship should be dangerous, and played around. Remaining members of your crew can always stop the ship to let you back on, and dying is always an option.

How dying is an option ? No it's not, that's the whole purpose of the mermaids. They were put in the game for a reason, and that's exactly what you're trying to fight here.

The problem is a stale meta game that encourages a linear play style. As close to 70% of ships open with boarding attempt on boarding attempt there needs to be somthing to discourage them from doing so. As it stands, boarding is the correct play style (the one the meta favors the most) all I want is ti encourage other play styles without implementing somthing like the vengeance system to give players an advantage.

The meta doesn't stand against a valid crew that knows how to prevent boarders and fight them.
If you know what you're doing, boarders will not get on your ship or will not last long enough to harm you or your crew. If they boarded and killed you, they are better than you, that's it. And they would beat you on a ship-to-ship combat too.
Boarding gives more fight scenarios, more tension, more adrenaline and forces you to be on the lookout. If you fail at that, you're only hope is to kill the boarder, if you fail at that, they are better. Not a reason to prevent boarding because of that. Because your system doesn't "encourage" anything or isn't "fixing" a supposed "meta", it's an attempt to nullify boarding, to prevent it from happening in the first place.

Also, you're talking about a "stale meta game" but what do you think the game would be without boarding ? It would just be a fight for ressources and who has the best CCBs.
The "meta", as you put it, would only change for something else, something IMO way less exciting and profound that what we have now.
SOT is not just a boom-boom-boom-lolz-canons game, boarding is part of the fun.
You're trying to remove boarding from the table and therefore removing one aspect of the PVP. I don't see how that would benefit the fun in PVP or be "more skilled".

You already have all the tools in your hand to prevent boarders and put them in a state where they just won't try to board anymore and they'll change strategy.

If this was implemented, the decrease in boarders would also decrease the expectation of boarding ;) making your job easier

Exactly ! It would make your job easier. That's exactly what I'm trying to tell you, this system lowers the skill-gap. Doing this would only remove possibilities.

encouraging people to use it smarter.
This encourages those who try to board to do so in a smarter manner and rewards those of you who already board well by introducing a skill gap

How about the crew defending their ship getting smarter instead ? How about them being on the look-out and ready for boarders ? Why would the ones taking the risk and making a bold move by trying to board be the ones getting punished ? Why making it more brainless for everyone ?
Boarding is much more difficult than guarding ladders.
The defending crew has already all the tools they need, let them use them.

Its a rule in the same way that life is a rule.

Lol, what are you getting at ? It's a video game, not life.
What's the point of this sentence ?

You can only get hit so many times before you die and in a simular fashion you can only attempt to board and fail so many times before you have to drown and respawn to get back on board.

You said it yourself, "You can only get hit so many times before you die". Then kill boarders, it's not that hard, really. Watch for mermaids, watch your ladders, listen for any splash in the water and kill them.

If you rejoin a session, they can just keep track of your mermaid uses. Ie, track it with the ship.

And you still would spawn back on your ship.

@papy-pitch
Too help with the ease of this lets try to number your arguments and see if we can reach common ground. If that not then we just have to respectfully disagree. (Also if i misrepresent your argument please fix it)

1. New players and people who generally fall off their ship will be punished in this new system.

2. Stopping someone from boarding is easier than being boarded.

3. one can always close the game and restart it to get back on the ship.

If there are further points you are trying to make or want to make we can just asd them but I think these are the 3 we keep circling around.

1. New players and people who generally fall off their ship will be punished in this new system.>

Yes. They will get punished. You should have to worry about falling off your ship.

2. Stopping someone from boarding is easier than being boarded.>

Yes it is easier, but unless you kill them while they try to board (which involves risking them geting on your ship) then they can just take a mermaid with out penalty and try again. Either, A) they fail to board and get a mermaid to try again. B) they succeed in boarding and take away from whatever duties the rest of the crew is doing. (Then they either die, succeed, or jump off to get a mermaid). In scenerio A, the most common scenario, they get to go back to theor ship and try again, or they get to help out in defence of their ship (which means they arnt down a crew).

Implementing somthing like this still rewards successful boarders by not giving the defending crew an advantage (like the previously proposed vengence system). While also discouraging those whose only tactic in a fight is boarding.

While yes it is easier to stop them it is just as easy to keep trying until it works.

3. one can always close the game and restart it to get back on the ship.>

I haven't tried this but i feel like closing and reopening the game may take longer than just dying and reloading in. But yes... you would still be on your boat

@rattlyfob What about shooting off to islands to get supplies? Suddenly, I can only do this 2-3 times and then no more mermaids? Doesn't seem like a good idea to me...

@realfickface itd be 5 times per crew member at which point the odds are high that you would have found a mermaid gem. Beyond that you could find a way to die to get sent back to your ship.

Side note, try counting the times you use a mermaid in a game. It can be surprising