I mean seriously, no one wants to chase a BB for upwards of 2-3 hours (if it all) just to end up at Reaper’s watching them turn the ship in. If you’re sailing a ship that has 10 cannons, a skeleton crew, is immune to fire, AND shoots flames from the front of the ship there should be absolutely no reason to run from anything or anyone on the horizon. All I’m saying is the BB should be unable to turn in if there is a rival ship nearby— if you don’t want to be chased then don’t do the world event.
Running Blade…
@prezzellord It makes no sense for bb players to waste time fighting. They get paid for camps, not for fights. That's why no one fights.
If some players get what they want on this all it will do is make the event less active and then people will blame Rare for it even though it's what they asked for.
It's better to take an L in situations sometimes and keep the content appealing to farmers than it is to make it less appealing which just makes it less active overall.
Making content less appealing to casual farmers has never worked in SoT, as far as participation goes.
Generally i vouch for most people having the right to run, but anything related to reapers was clearly designed with pvp as the intent, and the new burning blade event is absolutely designed with pvp as the intent. They didnt give it a flame thrower and skeleton crew to deal with megs and skeleton ships.
What i would do is make it so if another player ship that has attacked (including hitting players or the skeletons) in the last 5 minutes it is within 2 tiles of it or within the island banner for reapers, they cant turn in. And if anyone who has not attacked is near it takes like a minute to turn in so if the other person was chasing and couldnt deal damage, they can make up for lost time.
When people take up the burning blade or put up reapers, they logically should not run, they knew it was designed for pvp, and with the burning blade, you have a few unique advantages that others dont. There is no reason to run other than because its a cheep win with no effort.
@goldsmen said in Running Blade…:
Generally i vouch for most people having the right to run, but anything related to reapers was clearly designed with pvp as the intent, and the new burning blade event is absolutely designed with pvp as the intent. They didnt give it a flame thrower and skeleton crew to deal with megs and skeleton ships.
What i would do is make it so if another player ship that has attacked (including hitting players or the skeletons) in the last 5 minutes it is within 2 tiles of it or within the island banner for reapers, they cant turn in. And if anyone who has not attacked is near it takes like a minute to turn in so if the other person was chasing and couldnt deal damage, they can make up for lost time.
When people take up the burning blade or put up reapers, they logically should not run, they knew it was designed for pvp, and with the burning blade, you have a few unique advantages that others dont. There is no reason to run other than because its a cheep win with no effort.
It's a giant slow ship that spends hours pveing to make it valuable (organically)
It's not like people don't have ample time to try. (design should not cater to server hopping)
If people need to spend hours adventuring in these things and won't have the chance to turn in they just won't do it, less activity is worse than incompatible activity.
@wolfmanbush said in Running Blade…:
@goldsmen said in Running Blade…:
Generally i vouch for most people having the right to run, but anything related to reapers was clearly designed with pvp as the intent, and the new burning blade event is absolutely designed with pvp as the intent. They didnt give it a flame thrower and skeleton crew to deal with megs and skeleton ships.
What i would do is make it so if another player ship that has attacked (including hitting players or the skeletons) in the last 5 minutes it is within 2 tiles of it or within the island banner for reapers, they cant turn in. And if anyone who has not attacked is near it takes like a minute to turn in so if the other person was chasing and couldnt deal damage, they can make up for lost time.
When people take up the burning blade or put up reapers, they logically should not run, they knew it was designed for pvp, and with the burning blade, you have a few unique advantages that others dont. There is no reason to run other than because its a cheep win with no effort.
It's a giant slow ship that spends hours pveing to make it valuable (organically)
It's not like people don't have ample time to try. (design should not cater to server hopping)
If people need to spend hours adventuring in these things and won't have the chance to turn in they just won't do it, less activity is worse than incompatible activity.
I never said it should cater to server hopping, but that as it was designed with incoming pvp attacks in mind and in its design, it should not be capable of so easily running and cashing in. It should have to deal with people if they want to cash in since the intent of its design seems as clear as it gets.
It does spend a lot of time doing pve, but its pretty obvious pvp was its intent since that flame thrower and skeleton crew is not just cosmetic. Even the commendations show the intent of the ship.
@goldsmen said in Running Blade…:
I never said it should cater to server hopping, but that as it was designed with incoming pvp attacks in mind and in its design, it should not be capable of so easily running and cashing in. It should have to deal with people if they want to cash in since the intent of its design seems as clear as it gets.
It does spend a lot of time doing pve, but its pretty obvious pvp was its intent since that flame thrower and skeleton crew is not just cosmetic. Even the commendations show the intent of the ship.
It's obviously built to pve and defend. Defending just means getting their stuff turned in, their win conditions. It's built to tank more than anything else. A buff for the inexperienced and non-serious pvpers.
But skilled pvpers can defend it too if they want.
There is so little pvp that is challenging to pvpers in SoT. This is challenging for a change, I don't consider that a negative thing.
@wolfmanbush said in Running Blade…:
@goldsmen said in Running Blade…:
I never said it should cater to server hopping, but that as it was designed with incoming pvp attacks in mind and in its design, it should not be capable of so easily running and cashing in. It should have to deal with people if they want to cash in since the intent of its design seems as clear as it gets.
It does spend a lot of time doing pve, but its pretty obvious pvp was its intent since that flame thrower and skeleton crew is not just cosmetic. Even the commendations show the intent of the ship.
It's obviously built to pve and defend. Defending just means getting their stuff turned in, their win conditions. It's built to tank more than anything else. A buff for the inexperienced and non-serious pvpers.
But skilled pvpers can defend it too if they want.
There is so little pvp that is challenging to pvpers in SoT. This is challenging for a change, I don't consider that a negative thing.
I wouldnt say thats obvious. That doesnt even fit in my logic of the ship since it has one of the strongest offensive weapons added in years along with defensive tools. Its destination is pve, but it seems intended for pvp since sinking athena ships and stealing orbs have place in commendation for it, and attacking it as an athena is another commendation.
Generally when something is built with the strongest offensive and defensive capabilities both in tandem, i would say that is not just built for pve and tanking. It has the most guns per side with skeletons that help shoot, and the strongest weapon+only frontal weapon ever added. It has strong defenses, but it has stronger offensive capabilities. The faction and commendations are only just my proof of intent, while the offensive capabilities are just really good for offensive capabilities.
If it was built primarily for tanking and defense with the intent that people should run with it, rear weapons would be more indicative of such a play style, not a weapon that you have to nose the enemy to use.
If you can't catch it or sink it after 2-3 hours; That's your fault for trying that hard, when it's clear you're unable to seal the deal.
Why do people always think someone running should be forced to do x or y thing?
If you can't catch someone, they should not be forced into fighting, or denied a turn-in, just to make you happy.It's the same tune with different lyrics; When Emissaries first launched, it was 'They should not be allowed to lower if I'm chasing them! I want their flag!'
Now it's 'They should not be allowed to turn in the BB if I'm chasing them! I want that ship!'@goldsmen said in Running Blade…:
I wouldnt say thats obvious. That doesnt even fit in my logic of the ship since it has one of the strongest offensive weapons added in years along with defensive tools. Its destination is pve, but it seems intended for pvp since sinking athena ships and stealing orbs have place in commendation for it, and attacking it as an athena is another commendation.
Generally when something is built with the strongest offensive and defensive capabilities both in tandem, i would say that is not just built for pve and tanking. It has the most guns per side with skeletons that help shoot, and the strongest weapon+only frontal weapon ever added. It has strong defenses, but it has stronger offensive capabilities. The faction and commendations are only just my proof of intent, while the offensive capabilities are just really good for offensive capabilities.
If it was built primarily for tanking and defense with the intent that people should run with it, rear weapons would be more indicative of such a play style, not a weapon that you have to nose the enemy to use.
It's also a camp vessel for skilled players that enjoy camping.
That's pretty cool. A healthy way to allow camping imo.
What is happening is what has happened for a long time. Some people get away and then people try to get Rare to step in. It happened with chain shots and red sea changes and anchor clutter.
This is a big boat that says "ok pvpers, show off your naval/camp crews" and lots of people have, plenty of people have enjoyed the content and sank bb's. It's not ideal for small offense focused crews but nothing really is.
Today we tried for 4 hours hunting down BB with pirate crew to get commendation Sizzling Sinker - sink BB at athnea emmisary. We fight 3 different crews for 3,5 hours with the same result: they went to reapers hideout and gave up a ship. Whats fun of that ? We are duo sloop tring to finish all the commendations in a game but this one is really impossible to finish nowadays. My honest opinion is that allowing crew to sink BB IMIDIATELY is just bad game design. With no rewawrds to toher crews, you get just nothing, complete waste of time today for us. If it at ealst count to that damn commendation when you are nearby, but no. Almost 4 hours wasted.
I always have a chuckle when a PvPer cries over a running team. You play the way you want. They play the way they want. You don't like it? Hop Servers. It has never been easier to find a server that is like-minded.
With that said....is the BB the same speed as a Galleon? Faster? Slower? Certainly, it isn't faster than a Galleon, is it? I would assume it works a bit like Sirens Song - a lumbering beast of a ship. And, I kind of do think player ships should be able to catch up to it.
@rikjaxx said in Running Blade…:
I always have a chuckle when a PvPer cries over a running team. You play the way you want. They play the way they want. You don't like it? Hop Servers. It has never been easier to find a server that is like-minded.
With that said....is the BB the same speed as a Galleon? Faster? Slower? Certainly, it isn't faster than a Galleon, is it? I would assume it works a bit like Sirens Song - a lumbering beast of a ship. And, I kind of do think player ships should be able to catch up to it.
The difference between typical running and this is that reapers has always been intended as a pvp faction, and this event was clearly designed with pvp in mind. If you play as hoarders, order, merchant or even athena and you want to run, feel free if you can do so effectively. But when something is designed with the intent of pvp, it makes no sense to run with it.
Its akin to people running in hourglass until you quit, its obvious as can be that playing such a way was not intended for it, so it makes no sense to defend such a play style in a situation where its clearly against intended gameplay/design.
@goldsmen said in Running Blade…:
@rikjaxx said in Running Blade…:
I always have a chuckle when a PvPer cries over a running team. You play the way you want. They play the way they want. You don't like it? Hop Servers. It has never been easier to find a server that is like-minded.
With that said....is the BB the same speed as a Galleon? Faster? Slower? Certainly, it isn't faster than a Galleon, is it? I would assume it works a bit like Sirens Song - a lumbering beast of a ship. And, I kind of do think player ships should be able to catch up to it.
The difference between typical running and this is that reapers has always been intended as a pvp faction, and this event was clearly designed with pvp in mind. If you play as hoarders, order, merchant or even athena and you want to run, feel free if you can do so effectively. But when something is designed with the intent of pvp, it makes no sense to run with it.
Its akin to people running in hourglass until you quit, its obvious as can be that playing such a way was not intended for it, so it makes no sense to defend such a play style in a situation where its clearly against intended gameplay/design.
It's just a higher risk faction
Pve reapers carried reapers the entire time, just like pve crews are gonna carry the bb. Way more pve focused players play organically and will participate as intended than pvpers will. That's been shown time and time again, especially in reaper play.
I think your view applies to HG but not anything else, imo
HG is an OPT-IN PvP choice, and I would agree with you that running in that case is just stupid. Resetting is a must, but just running is a waste of everyone's time.
While I agree that BB is meant for some great PvP encounters, it is not an OPT-IN PvP choice the way HG is. So, IMO, players are much freer to choose how they want to proceed.
They want to WIN and gain the commendations and loot values. If that means avoiding a PvP encounter, then so be it.
@rikjaxx said in Running Blade…:
HG is an OPT-IN PvP choice, and I would agree with you that running in that case is just stupid. Resetting is a must, but just running is a waste of everyone's time.
While I agree that BB is meant for some great PvP encounters, it is not an OPT-IN PvP choice the way HG is. So, IMO, players are much freer to choose how they want to proceed.
They want to WIN and gain the commendations and loot values. If that means avoiding a PvP encounter, then so be it.
The thing is, both reapers emissary and the burning blade which were intended as pvp options that you as a player opt in to do. While they do give you more freedom how to proceed since its not quite the same as hourglass, they are still intended for pvp by design, which makes running as bb seem very akin to running in hourglass since both hg and bb/reapers have pvp as a core part of their base design.
Its entirely a matter of intent of design to me, and while theres nothing that stops them from running with the burning blade, imo it just ruins the purpose of having it. Theres nothing we as players can do to stop that kind of action, but if rare can be convinced to make running from pvp as bb not such an easy and profitable choice, i will vouch that rare do.
All i want is for people who are doing something intended as a pvp risk to actually have to take that risk as is intended, which doesnt seem wrong or mock worthy.
You have to think about what the benefit/time ratio is:
The Burning Blade crew’s primary task is to finish rituals to get their count up to at least 4, preferably 8, and then cash it in at Reapers. That is literally what their commendations are asking for.
While the Burning Blade crew can collect treasure and turn it in to reapers, they lose their multiplier the moment they turn the ship into reapers.
With the burning blade crew your primary resource is skeletons, and the main way of restoring lost ones is by finishing the camps. While the BB Crew does have resource barrels, they come pretty stuffed, but any things the skeletons use doesn’t count.
It actually is more efficient for the BB Crew to NOT sink opposing ships, cuz then they can easily restock their ship.
As a player who wants to sink the Burning Blade crew, the best thing to do is stock up your shift, and don’t make a run at them till after they have 3 rituals. But since you know what the BBCrew is after, and you can clearly see them on the map, you can make strategic plays to take them out. But as we discovered… but easiest way to do it is focus on killing their skeletons, cuz then the players have to both bilge and repair, which is not the easiest on that ship.
@wolfmanbush said in Running Blade…:
@goldsmen said in Running Blade…:
@rikjaxx said in Running Blade…:
I always have a chuckle when a PvPer cries over a running team. You play the way you want. They play the way they want. You don't like it? Hop Servers. It has never been easier to find a server that is like-minded.
With that said....is the BB the same speed as a Galleon? Faster? Slower? Certainly, it isn't faster than a Galleon, is it? I would assume it works a bit like Sirens Song - a lumbering beast of a ship. And, I kind of do think player ships should be able to catch up to it.
The difference between typical running and this is that reapers has always been intended as a pvp faction, and this event was clearly designed with pvp in mind. If you play as hoarders, order, merchant or even athena and you want to run, feel free if you can do so effectively. But when something is designed with the intent of pvp, it makes no sense to run with it.
Its akin to people running in hourglass until you quit, its obvious as can be that playing such a way was not intended for it, so it makes no sense to defend such a play style in a situation where its clearly against intended gameplay/design.
It's just a higher risk faction
Pve reapers carried reapers the entire time, just like pve crews are gonna carry the bb. Way more pve focused players play organically and will participate as intended than pvpers will. That's been shown time and time again, especially in reaper play.
I think your view applies to HG but not anything else, imo
My entire disagreement with it applying only to pvp is based on the idea that intended design has more weight than interpretation. If player interpretation had more weight than intended design, then many exploits would not be fixed and progress reverted in some cases. The burning blades intended design was as a massive ship that is supposed to fight when attacked, and that has more weight than just 1 oversight that allows some people to just sell with ease without fighting at all.
@goldsmen said in Running Blade…:
My entire disagreement with it applying only to pvp is based on the idea that intended design has more weight than interpretation. If player interpretation had more weight than intended design, then many exploits would not be fixed and progress reverted in some cases. The burning blades intended design was as a massive ship that is supposed to fight when attacked, and that has more weight than just 1 oversight that allows some people to just sell with ease without fighting at all.
I separate my view on policy from what I personally think people should do.
On policy I think it's within the sandbox and within design. It's not an exploit and is fair play.
Personal opinion is that I think people should try to make as many scenarios as fun as possible as a shared activity. I'm not a supporter of running and(outside of hg) I don't condemn it. Some situations it's understandable and some situations I think it is spiteful. It really just depends on the crews and situation.
I think bigger bb crews should fight attacking sloops and smaller crews. I think experienced pvpers should defend first and then lower/sell. I just support their freedom in the sandbox to do things that I don't agree with as it's not an exploit.
"My entire disagreement with it applying only to pvp is based on the idea that intended design has more weight than interpretation."
We are going to disagree on this point a bit. In a sandbox environment, the devs create the content and let the players explore how they will use the new content. If RARE really wanted to force PvP and ignore PvE with the Burning Blade they could have easily set up some restrictions that pushed the play or forced the play that direction.
Using exploits as one of your case arguments doesn't work here as exploits are usually a twisting of the mechanics or a loophole in the programming. Running on the BB does neither of those.
I see a ton of PvP regarding the BB so it's not like you can't find a good fight. And in the end, you KNOW they are heading to Reapers Hideout. You can set up a blockade and force a fight before they get there.
Even so, I could see RARE changing the speed of the BB to match that of your ship when you have the Sirens Song. What is fine on one event should be fine on another.
@rikjaxx said in Running Blade…:
"My entire disagreement with it applying only to pvp is based on the idea that intended design has more weight than interpretation."
We are going to disagree on this point a bit. In a sandbox environment, the devs create the content and let the players explore how they will use the new content. If RARE really wanted to force PvP and ignore PvE with the Burning Blade they could have easily set up some restrictions that pushed the play or forced the play that direction.
Using exploits as one of your case arguments doesn't work here as exploits are usually a twisting of the mechanics or a loophole in the programming. Running on the BB does neither of those.
I see a ton of PvP regarding the BB so it's not like you can't find a good fight. And in the end, you KNOW they are heading to Reapers Hideout. You can set up a blockade and force a fight before they get there.
Even so, I could see RARE changing the speed of the BB to match that of your ship when you have the Sirens Song. What is fine on one event should be fine on another.
At no point did i say they were ignoring pve, but that it was designed as a pvp ship. If no one hunts you down then cool, but it makes no sense to run with something designed expressly as the toughest ship for pvp. As it is right now there are many people who cant even get commendations because of them running.
As for the exploit part, it seems both you and wolf misread that entire part, i was not claiming that running with the burning blade is an exploit, but that i was using that as an example of how dev intent holds more weight than player interpretation because while this is a sandbox game, and the devs do say tools not rules as a slogan, they have shown clearly since it is an online sandbox game with pvp elements, there absolutely are rules, and intentions behind how things should be. Thats the entire reason i brought up exploits, if there were no rules to this sandbox, exploits fundamentally wouldnt exist.
I absolutely hate the binary choice people keep coming up with around the burning blade. As a sandbox game, there isn't a right or wrong way to enjoy any content. Running should absolutely be an option. This isn't a PvP encounter/content, nor is reapers a PvP faction, and NEVER WAS. If Reapers was a PvP faction, they wouldn't take loot. I was around when Reapers was introduced. People suggested that they should only take flags. Or should only take stolen loot. That organic loot should be disallowed. None of those ideas ever took off. BECAUSE REAPERS ARE PvEvP like everything else in this game!!!!
But let's break down the suggestion a bit more. What other content PREVENTS you from selling. Answer: none. When "portals" became a thing, loot and a copy of the flag gets dropped if someone "runs" through a portal. When diving, a player can't be close, but loot is also not taken with you when you dive. In short, the game doesn't allow you to use portals or diving to keep your rewards. It makes you sell it to keep it. So while diving is blocked while another ship is nearby, it is NOT beneficial in a way that protects your stash. you still have to sacrifice it or sell it. Even hourglass, last I checked, lets you cash in your hourglass even with a ship hot on your heels. ONLY diving is blocked. There is no basis or precendent for preventing the cashing in of the burning blade if another ship is near.
Conversely, what would happen if this gets implemented. Let's say you have a BB and get to reapers. You sink a nearby ship. Then another is close. So you sink them. And by that time, the first ship is back. It's one thing for this to happen at a contested world event (fort of fortune, etc) as nobody has completed it. Or opened the vault. But its another when you literally have no path to claim your prize because three ships on the server are rotating in attacking you. You play whack-a-mole until you sink? That far too heavily punishes the owner of the burning blade. And that is what would happen with this change. Servers would converge on the hideout every time a burning blade was up, because there is no risk and all eward to do so, while the burning blade has no recourse. No counterplay.
How things stand now MIGHT be open to wiggle room. Like I said at the top, I hate the binary choice. Right now, cashing out requires a unanimous vote. Which is good. It is also a "hold to interact" prompt. Which is also good. Preventing the cash-in is certainly doable. You only have to stop one player from voting. That's not an impossible ask when they have to stand at the interaction point (blunderbomb anyone) and the entire time, the ship is vulnerable since ALL players have to leave ship. Sure, if they take turns, and you are bad at prioritizing, they'll still succeed (or for a solo, it only takes one) but if they beat you to reapers and you failed to kill them or lock it down, and they manage this feat, they earned it.
So the only things I think might be tweaked is anchor raise time. Maybe. Not to galleon standards, but I think data can drive the exact time. Or the time-to-sell interact prompt. Maybe it takes each player holding the interact for 1 second. Or 2. So they are more vulnerable while trying to get their vote down. If a four-man blade still manages to get each player to the table for 2 full seconds each, they earned the sell.
Total aside, I also think dropping the anchor should be a longer interact for similar reasons. Boarding and dropping anchor WHILE bunnyhopping seems OP at the moment. Taking the time to drop an opponent's anchor should be more punishing, just as their raising it is. But digress.
Preventing people from cashing in is a hard no from me. Rewarding good play, such as actually successfully getting a mast and/or anchor down, or stopping people from voting, is something I'd be okay with as long as it respects balance and still allows a burning blade crew to succeed at their mission if they succeed at defending. And running is absolutely a valid defense. IF changes are needed at all (and I am not convinced they are), then MINOR tweaks only to keep this viable. No major system overhauls. And I would let data (how often do contested blades get sold vs sunk) drive the tweaking decisions. Not impassioned emotional reactions from these forums.
There isn’t any reason why anyone should run. There’s also no reason why they should stay and fight. No one in this game owes you a fight, no matter what ship they’re on. If they want to fight, that’s their choice. If they want to run and turn in, that’s their choice too.
No one is forcing you to chase them either. You can’t choose to chase after someone for 2 hours and then complain that you had to chase them for 2 hours.
What makes this game great is that people have the freedom to play how they want. You don’t have to like their choices, but that doesn’t make their choices wrong.
IMO the design of the whole event needed to take into consideration the skill levels of both the crews captaining the ship and the ones elsewhere in the server.
If there were no Skeleton Camps, players captaining the BB would (likely) be focused on only sinking other crews. Players in the server who are disinterested in sinking the Burning Blade or PvP would have a pretty terrible time as they'd likely be the target of players captaining the BB.
Putting the Skeleton Camps into the game encourages crews to focus on those commendations and PvE, easing off everyone else. That allows the ship to co-exist in the server and for it to still be a target for other players who want the challenge of sinking it.
It's well balanced. I don't see any issue with how it currently works although I agree that there is less incentive for the Burning Blade to sink other crews if they're being chased.
If I were to make any adjustments, I would say that crews who aren't captaining the BB should be encouraged to interrupt a Ritual first, this essentially 'opts' them into a fight with the BB. Then give incentives for the BB to sink crews that have interrupted a ritual.
@ixxxoloff a dit dans Running Blade… :
@prezzellord It makes no sense for bb players to waste time fighting. They get paid for camps, not for fights. That's why no one fights.
Flameheart would be ashamed of you.
It's true that the primary mission is to perform the rituals, but if that's all it is, then I have some questions:- Why is this a global event?
- Since when has a global event gone uncontested on SoT?
- Why not use the full firepower of the ship?
- What's the point of all the skeletons on the BB? To look pretty?
I could ask many more, but personally, I'm sick of all these pirates who, by owning the BB, are just running away from the fight. It's a disgrace.
What's more, it would also be necessary to block the Reaper Hideout vote if an enemy ship is nearby.Let me add in passing that the world event is so well designed that the BB is designed to be slow, so as not to run away from the fight. THERE'S NO REASON TO RUN AWAY FROM THE FIGHT WITH THE BB!
@zeyrniyx One more time. It makes no sense for bb pirates to fight you and they won't. The fight is for you, not them. They will gain nothing from the fight, they will only lose time. That's why almost everyone ignores their opponents.
Victory where victory is due pirates. A mug of Grog to the "Fight as Intended" camp.
I assume that means Sirens Song ship speeds. We'll see.
But what I'm REALLY glad to see is Rare seems to really be listening to the players lately. Now more than ever. They must have cleared their plates of some distractions (game cross overs) and are now focused back on their vision of the game.
25 de 31
