"MMR" and Hourglass Allegiance don't work together

  • Now read the post before going to downvote.

    Let me give a scenario that a lot of people have run into. You are playing HG having fun then run into this one ship with probably more play time on one of their players than your entire crew combined times 2. So you take the L, spend some time getting supplies again play a match then run into the exact same crew again. You take the L, probably get frustrated and either switch servers or call it a night... This happens all too often and should not be the case. Rare putting you into matches where you have NO chance of winning is not good matchmaking.

    So how does Rare fix this? Well right now there is an "MMR" system but the system does not promote you playing well and fighting better players, but rather promotes win streaks. Meaning the game promotes you beating weaker players multiple times in a row instead of beating 1 better crew then you, which is the core of the problem. In other games with an MMR system as you hit higher ranks you expect significantly longer queue times and players are ok with that trade of knowing that A) they will get a good game and B) they will get rewarded proportionately for winning that higher caliber game then if they were to simply play with shorter queue times at a lower MMR. Now some other games make this system work of having an MMR mean nothing for example CoD, but 2 major differences exist here 1) most games in COD are made up of a bunch of solos so the game can balance accordingly and so little team play can actually be done 2) with a massive playerbase and multiple game modes you can just find a new lobby if the lobby you were playing was no fun.

    SoT does not share these luxuries instead promoting a team play experience which unfortunately lends to massive skill gaps between crews existing. So how to fix this:

    1. Make higher MMR players wait in longer queue times a "diamond" player should NEVER pair against a "Bronze" player PERIOD. This is what kills the mode and why players who are not at the top of the food chain tend to quit.
    2. Make reaching higher MMR worth it. It's equally important for players to not tank their MMR for lower queue times then and free win streaks which is the most effective way to gain allegiance instead the best way to gain allegiance should be to reach higher MMR. The higher your MMR the more allegiance you should get to make it worth it to want to climb.

    At the current rate HG is going to be in a worst state than gally arena was with gally HG already an almost dead mode. Being put into unwinnable games to act as fodder for another crew is not fun.

    Edit
    Example:
    Assume a 3 rank system bronze, silver, gold. If the skill across the game is normalized then 68% of the players would be in silver so for that group of players expect little to no change, just better games. Now for bronze players (16%) would try to pair them against other bronze players at first but if it takes too long then pairing them versus silvers would really not be that bad for them and if they win then give them a boost in allegiance for beating a silver player.

    Now is the problematic group the gold players. Pair gold players only versus other gold players which means they would suffer the most from queue times, but make it worth their time by giving them massively boosted allegiance to the point the most lucrative way to climb is to be higher elo.

    Now the 3 rank system would be dumb in practice, so in reality we would be talking more of a range of players that can and cannot pair against each other for example high silver players should be able to fight low gold and so forth. But the point is that because skill in this game is normalized then implementing a stricter matchmaking system would not impact a majority of the playerbase. By not letting bronze or silver players queue against gold then they would have a better experience without a hit to matchmaking, and by giving gold players a massive allegiance boost and making being gold the best way to gain allegiance they would be happy. This system benefits everyone.

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  • Nah sorry, they have to balance making sure everyone gets a match in a fair amount of time, and if that means that a “bronze” player goes against a “gold” player then so be it. Personally I’d want a match quickly than it taking forever while the game tries to get me someone of my “level”. Rare feel this way too clearly.

  • if you're experiencing issues with extremely difficult fights during diving, you can try playing defense with grade 5 hourglass. Afaik, grade 5 gives 2.5 multiplier to sinking ships which makes up for way slower matchmaking. When I play galleon, I often do that if our crew doesn't feel like spending half an hour for every fight.

  • Rare putting you into matches where you have NO chance of winning is not good matchmaking.

    Always a chance. The moment you think you don’t, is the moment you lose.

    Once again. The complaints are always the “dive” or attacking ships. Never the defending ones. So why not change up a few things?

    Instead of looking, wait.

  • @nitroxien I didn't understand anything you wrote, but it looks interesting) Why all this if you can just learn how to sink any ships. It's unclear to me, because I have no difficulty fighting any ship or any player.

  • Daily Deeds and Weekly/Seasonal Trials is the better way to "fix" things IMO. Reward players allegiance for participation and specific activities and measurable within HG battles. This would help to reward players who aren't consistently winning and allow them to feel accomplished even in loss.

    SOT doesn't have enough concurrent players regionally doing HG to make your suggestion a possibility. If you start forcing players into insane queue times because of their MMR, you'll see the mode taper off even faster than it already has. In theory, it's the ideal solution...in reality, it would kill the mode.

  • @ixxxoloff Have you played PC galleon...

  • @sweetsandman as someone who regularly goes on 10 win streaks and beats a handful of ex-nal players and teams I am fine with waiting 30 minutes for a game if I am rewarded properly for it. This would also add to the playerbase of the game by having casual players keep playing by matching them more fairly.

    Right now people are quitting because of unfair games.

  • @nitroxien I'd be curious to see, if people had to pick, which they're more frustrated with when it comes to Hourglass Battles.

    A). That their matches are unfair

    Or (not 'and')

    B). That the progression is slow

    Increasing the matchmaking times to 20+min queues and making the matches super balanced in the lower ranks means those matches are going to take even longer...just a bunch of players with mediocre offense and solid defense duking it out and resetting for 30+ minutes until someone burns through their 100+ planks...

    You're now talking about 50+ minutes between queue and match completion...you really think people want that? Especially if they're on the losing end? Remember...someone has to lose.

  • @sweetsandman Assuming the distribution of skill is normalized (which I would argue is a fair distribution) then I would expect matchmaking time for a majority of players to be about the same.

    So let's assume a 3 rank system bronze, silver, gold. If the skill across the game is normalized then 68% of the players would be in silver so for that group of players expect little to no change, just better games. Now for bronze players (16%) would try to pair them against other bronze players at first but if it takes too long then pairing them versus silvers would really not be that bad for them and if they win then give them a boost in allegiance for beating a silver player.

    Now is the problematic group the gold players. Pair gold players only versus other gold players which means they would suffer the most from queue times, but make it worth their time by giving them massively boosted allegiance to the point the most lucrative way to climb is to be higher elo.

    Now the 3 rank system would be dumb in practice, so in reality we would be talking more of a range of players that can and cannot pair against each other for example high silver players should be able to fight low gold and so forth. But the point is that because skill in this game is normalized then implementing a stricter matchmaking system would not impact a majority of the playerbase. By not letting bronze or silver players queue against gold then they would have a better experience without a hit to matchmaking, and by giving gold players a massive allegiance boost and making being gold the best way to gain allegiance they would be happy. This system benefits everyone.

  • @nitroxien I mean it benefits everyone, yes... except those that don't want insanely long queue times...which is pretty much everyone...

    In theory, it's great...in reality, it's a bit pie-in-the-sky. Even top-tier FPS games struggle with fair SBMM at times...and we have a fraction of the concurrent playerbase of theirs...and and even tinier fraction doing Hourglass Battles.

    I know that if I had to wait 20+ minutes for a match, I'd 100% abandon hourglass...and I'm confident I'm in the overwhelming majority on that mindset.

  • @sweetsandman said in "MMR" and Hourglass Allegiance don't work together:

    @nitroxien I mean it benefits everyone, yes... except those that don't want insanely long queue times...which is pretty much everyone...

    In theory, it's great...in reality, it's a bit pie-in-the-sky. Even top-tier FPS games struggle with fair SBMM at times...and we have a fraction of the concurrent playerbase of theirs...and and even tinier fraction doing Hourglass Battles.

    I know that if I had to wait 20+ minutes for a match, I'd 100% abandon hourglass...and I'm confident I'm in the overwhelming majority on that mindset.

    But what's the flip side of that?

    I know that if I couldn't win a single match because everyone of my MMR abandoned hourglass, I'd 100% abandon hourglass...and that's what's happening.

    The pirates left in hourglass don't care about the rewards, they just like the PVP. That has caused everyone who actually wants the rewards to abandon hourglass. Some gatekeepers think that's fine, the ones that say, "you should be required to win to get the curses! All these entitled pirates just don't want to earn them."

    No, they want to earn them. But they don't want to earn them by being the meat fed into the hourglass grinder. They want fair matches.

  • @lordqulex said in "MMR" and Hourglass Allegiance don't work together:

    The pirates left in hourglass don't care about the rewards, they just like the PVP. That has caused everyone who actually wants the rewards to abandon hourglass. Some gatekeepers think that's fine, the ones that say, "you should be required to win to get the curses! All these entitled pirates just don't want to earn them."

    No, they want to earn them. But they don't want to earn them by being the meat fed into the hourglass grinder. They want fair matches.

    These so-called "gatekeepers" are basically telling you to play better, because you will win eventually and when you start winning more, you'll be in a similar position as them. The big disparity is the time and resilience required to reach that point, and all of that "training" for being a green ghost or a boney skeleton, is really not worth it. That's why I'm saying the goal shouldn't be the rewards awaiting you, but the chance to get into tough PvP fights that you can learn how to fight in.

    Of course, I'm saying this because I am supporting competitive, extremely skilled players who have learned and earned their skills over years of tough battles not just in Adventure mode via steals/defending loot hauls, but in the Arena via the mode's rules, stipulations, and trials set by the competition there. Hourglass funneled itself into being an Adventure mode version of Arena but only with the popular form of battle mechanics instead of fighting over chests on islands.

    No one can fix this game to fix its mis-guided players, not at this state, and Hourglass just doesn't have a positive future so far due to how barebones the activity was introduced.

  • @nitroxien

    I think this is a "player pool" issue. I dont think there are much other players than "warlords" that play this mode. If there are 10 casuals and 150 warlords, i dont see it possible to exceed 40% win rate as a casual.

    Even if many casuals stay around for HG pvp, they wont stay casual for long.

    I think the mode is better with crewmates though.

    I do think allegiance needs to be added to for example world events. I have very little reason for incentive since i cannot propperly impact how much allegiance i get in a certain amount of time without winning back to back with more loot.

    Imagine if you got more allegiance for hitting cannonballs. I could use my foul tower strategies. But instead i have to spiral for 15 minutes until someone loses their mast and cant recover. Sloops never sink either, much risk in boarding too, so its often bail battle for many minutes.

  • @nex-stargaze said in "MMR" and Hourglass Allegiance don't work together:

    @lordqulex said in "MMR" and Hourglass Allegiance don't work together:

    The pirates left in hourglass don't care about the rewards, they just like the PVP. That has caused everyone who actually wants the rewards to abandon hourglass. Some gatekeepers think that's fine, the ones that say, "you should be required to win to get the curses! All these entitled pirates just don't want to earn them."

    No, they want to earn them. But they don't want to earn them by being the meat fed into the hourglass grinder. They want fair matches.

    These so-called "gatekeepers" are basically telling you to play better, because you will win eventually and when you start winning more, you'll be in a similar position as them. The big disparity is the time and resilience required to reach that point, and all of that "training" for being a green ghost or a boney skeleton, is really not worth it. That's why I'm saying the goal shouldn't be the rewards awaiting you, but the chance to get into tough PvP fights that you can learn how to fight in.

    Of course, I'm saying this because I am supporting competitive, extremely skilled players who have learned and earned their skills over years of tough battles not just in Adventure mode via steals/defending loot hauls, but in the Arena via the mode's rules, stipulations, and trials set by the competition there. Hourglass funneled itself into being an Adventure mode version of Arena but only with the popular form of battle mechanics instead of fighting over chests on islands.

    No one can fix this game to fix its mis-guided players, not at this state, and Hourglass just doesn't have a positive future so far due to how barebones the activity was introduced.

    So your argument boils down to "git gud is a valid argument"? We'll just have to agree to disagree there again.

  • @lordqulex said in "MMR" and Hourglass Allegiance don't work together:

    So your argument boils down to "git gud is a valid argument"? We'll just have to agree to disagree there again.

    I don't want it to mean that, but at this point you're picking a side that isn't going to be looked at fondly.

    I dislike hourglass with all my sanity and mental health that remain intact, but I cannot disrespect a crowd of people that are ultimately better than me and would likely have better say on this game's PvP than any PvE-favored player on this forum, the official discord, and every other form of social media.

    Maybe you don't respect these people, maybe you aren't looking to sail with any of them, but you can't invalidate what they've been through, especially what they had to go through just to earn the bare minimum for Hourglass, warts and all.

  • @nex-stargaze said in "MMR" and Hourglass Allegiance don't work together:

    @lordqulex said in "MMR" and Hourglass Allegiance don't work together:

    So your argument boils down to "git gud is a valid argument"? We'll just have to agree to disagree there again.

    I don't want it to mean that, but at this point you're picking a side that isn't going to be looked at fondly.

    I dislike hourglass with all my sanity and mental health that remain intact, but I cannot disrespect a crowd of people that are ultimately better than me and would likely have better say on this game's PvP than any PvE-favored player on this forum, the official discord, and every other form of social media.

    Maybe you don't respect these people, maybe you aren't looking to sail with any of them, but you can't invalidate what they've been through, especially what they had to go through just to earn the bare minimum for Hourglass, warts and all.

    I don't dislike hourglass, I see a solid foundation with many opportunities for improvement. Even in the short term any player participating in hourglass 1) is playing the game in the first place, which is good, and 2) is quenching their thirst for PVP in hourglass and not in adventure mode, which does ease some pressure off of newer players which is a very good thing. I don't want to disrespect any pirate's adventure any more than I want them disrespecting mine.

    But the mini documentary opened my eyes, hit my feels, and reinforced something I read in the forums. There is a blind player sailing the seas with us. Just, woah... I'm not going to venture a guess whether he wants either of the curses or not, but that sets the benchmark of accessibility as far as I'm concerned. Maybe he'll get them one day, maybe he doesn't care. But it made me think about other pirates with other disabilities. Maybe ones that can't join a crew, and can't win, and can't suffer the demoralization of loss after loss after loss. Who am I to tell them "git gud or you don't deserve the curses?" Who are you to tell them that? Who is anyone???

  • I've seen a link to a post on matchmaking shared here and it confirms the mmr does behave somewhat like you mention in that crews with higher mmr will gain less from winning against lower crews or lose more if they lose. The issue is if there isn't the balanced fight available the window keeps expanding. I'd personally rather that than not finding a fight

  • @lordqulex said in "MMR" and Hourglass Allegiance don't work together:

    @sweetsandman said in "MMR" and Hourglass Allegiance don't work together:

    @nitroxien I mean it benefits everyone, yes... except those that don't want insanely long queue times...which is pretty much everyone...

    In theory, it's great...in reality, it's a bit pie-in-the-sky. Even top-tier FPS games struggle with fair SBMM at times...and we have a fraction of the concurrent playerbase of theirs...and and even tinier fraction doing Hourglass Battles.

    I know that if I had to wait 20+ minutes for a match, I'd 100% abandon hourglass...and I'm confident I'm in the overwhelming majority on that mindset.

    But what's the flip side of that?

    I know that if I couldn't win a single match because everyone of my MMR abandoned hourglass, I'd 100% abandon hourglass...and that's what's happening.

    The pirates left in hourglass don't care about the rewards, they just like the PVP. That has caused everyone who actually wants the rewards to abandon hourglass. Some gatekeepers think that's fine, the ones that say, "you should be required to win to get the curses! All these entitled pirates just don't want to earn them."

    No, they want to earn them. But they don't want to earn them by being the meat fed into the hourglass grinder. They want fair matches.

    I maintain that it isn't necessarily a fair fight that people want most. Faster progression, especially for those on the losing end, woud likely rank (way) higher in a poll.

    A Daily Deeds, Weekly/Seasonal Trials system that awards allegiance boosts for participation would be far better served than trying to get fair matches at the expense of queue times.

  • We just need a larger player base….
    Which is a much harder issue to solve.

    That’s up to Rare and Microsoft’s marketing team.

    Oh and maybe the whole philosophy of having Xbox and PC Players play together despite an enormous disadvantage to controller players. And literally zero effort by Rare to compensate for this. Other than go play in your own server with less people.

    New players don’t even know about these servers so they just enter and get wrecked. Abs leave forever.

    I think Xbox players should automatically be put on their own servers. Or Rare needs to give them auto aim or something.

    Expanding the PVP playerbase just has so many factors like this that make it difficult.

    This well may be as good as it gets, folks.

  • @sweetsandman said in "MMR" and Hourglass Allegiance don't work together:

    I maintain that it isn't necessarily a fair fight that people want most. Faster progression, especially for those on the losing end, woud likely rank (way) higher in a poll.

    I think the point of participating in PvP via is to have fun in it. Not necessarily shorten a grind because it is in fact, a very bad grind.

    PvP needs to be made fun first, because by then, the mind numbing grind wouldn't matter because you're enjoying yourself. It's a player mindset that is impossible to fix, but I think it's better to target the functions of PvP moreso than the rewards system, as to respect the tougher players that earned their curses through the original grind.

  • @wujuwarrior1375 Gaining allegiance for hitting cannons will just promote spawn camping they should encourage you to win the game above all else. My fix would make it so casuals which assume a normal distribution would make up 68% of the player base would have a better time in which would greatly help the player pool issue.

  • @sweetsandman I mean as I explained longer queue would only really affect higher elo players and with a system that makes it so that being higher elo is the best way to progress everyone would be happy.

    Casuals would get same time queue and pair with mostly casuals, while higher elo would climb significantly faster but have higher queues.

    Since as you said:

    I maintain that it isn't necessarily a fair fight that people want most. Faster progression, especially for those on the losing end, woud likely rank (way) higher in a poll.

    So higher elo players would be happier with longer queues since they would be progressing faster than everyone else even with longer queue times, and lower and mid elo would get more fair fights and not deal with sweats.

  • @tesiccl Here me out though:

    If your in the majority player base assuming normalized distribution + low elo would make up 84% of the playerbase that means for 84% of the playerbase times would be mostly unchanged but they get better games with more players starting to play due to getting fairer games.

    High elo would get massive allegiance bonuses to the point by far the best way to gain allegiance would be to be high elo.

    This system makes sure everyone gets something.

  • Also take into account for the "gold" players not all of them are even in it for allegiance anymore.

    They might be doing it working on some of the other commendations, seeking opposing faction flags, or overall sinks, or killstreaks. Some of those achievements have already been made extremely difficult to complete when same-faction battles were enabled, but same-faction wins do not count towards these commendations.

    Players working on those are much happier with quick queues and easy fights. Your entire perspective is based on being on the lower skill, losing side wishing to grind allegiance; not everyone is raising HG for the same reasons.

    I do not want to be punished for having put in the effort to get better at the game I'm playing, and carefully assembled a team of equally good players. Also imagine be forced to sit in a queue for even longer than queues already are, only to get matched with an opponent that doesnt even 'count' towards what you're trying to work on.

  • @nitroxien said in "MMR" and Hourglass Allegiance don't work together:

    So higher elo players would be happier with longer queues since they would be progressing faster than everyone else even with longer queue times, and lower and mid elo would get more fair fights and not deal with sweats.

    This is going to sound like a very rude generalization based on the amount of people I consider higher elo currently diving all day on Twitch: Most of them are borderline brain-numbed with nothing but thrills and fights on their mind. An unfair fight just doesn't phase them as it does the rest of the playerbase, but they want their on-demand action because they know they're going to win/have fun doing the Same. Cursed. Thing. Every time.

    The solution is novel, but it directly ruins the fun of people good at the game, because they aren't patient, they want to erase boats anyway they'd like, and they'll accept easier fights if it means they just get a fight. I know players don't like those kinds of "kill anyone on sight" boats, but this is probably the only way they get what they want, without being a complete menace to the seas around them.

  • @nitroxien The problem is that high MMR pirates don't want allegiance for the most part, they are the ones that enjoy PVP and want it immediately. They are the ones that would rage in the forums if the compromise were "your queue time is twice as long but you get twice the allegiance!"

  • @nex-stargaze The challenge is that fun is relative. I agree with you 1000%, the bulk of hourglass pirates are the ones that want a fight now, and don't care if it's easy, hard, or fair. They just want to fight.

    But there are many pirates who look at hourglass and think, "if I can't get a fair fight it's not fun."

    There are also many pirates who look at hourglass and think, "the PVP isn't too bad, but this grind is demoralizing and not fun."

    And there are yet still pirates who look at PVP and don't even think that is fun to begin with and couldn't imagine trying hourglass!

    Trying to make PVP "fun" for the majority of players is a fool's errand in my opinion; that's means dramatically different things to too many pirates. For example, making PVP "fun" for me would start with repairing both forms of animation cancelling (TIL there are two), and adding friendly fire to cannons. To others that's anathema to the core gameplay mechanics.

    I still don't believe the problem is hourglass itself; as you've said it takes the "kill anyone on sight" boats out of adventure which does ease much of the pressure on newer players. The root of the problem is that 1) there is no mention of the constant threat of PVP in the shared world in SoT videos which leads newer players to complain when they get attacked creating a "I hate PVP" community, and 2) they put the most requested cosmetics since the inception of the game behind a play mode much of the community rails against.

    Besides putting cosmetics with universal appeal inside of a game mode that much of the community will hate no matter what form it takes, the mechanics and features and functionality of hourglass aren't actually too bad. Yes, with more pirate participation they could create metallic "tiers" like other PVP games, but hourglass simply isn't that popular to divide the player base that way.

  • @nitroxien not what this game does though. Everyone is rewarded equally and fairly and I agree.

  • I think the good fix for huge spread of skill now would be:

    • reasonable better xp awards for loosing and wining with HIGHER MMR cerws / solo sloops.

    In that way nobody is punished for game own problems.

  • @nitroxien said in "MMR" and Hourglass Allegiance don't work together:

    Well right now there is an "MMR" system but the system does not promote you playing well and fighting better players, but rather promotes win streaks.

    This claim gets thrown around every now and then and I'd like to see a source/evidence, especially since the game doesn't show your and the enemy's Elo number.

  • theres some pretty good ideas in these comments, but as someone who plays many games at an extremely high competitive level and is just an all around sweat, i can confidently say that OP is pretty accurate in describing an issue that exists, and solutions/problems that exist/come from other games, a lot of you disagree with the MMR thing but bottom line is that hes right, hes right for just about every competitive game thats ever existed, and thats just an objective inarguable fact. Bottom line something needs to be done about it, mmr should exist in this game in my opinion in a functional way that promotes developing skill and limits frustration so that new players do not give up

  • Regardless of the MMR system in play, I think a lot of people gave up on the Hourglass system because of the lack of (desired) progressive rewards leading up to the curses, so the pool of people doing Hourglass Battles is pretty slim.

  • @caldera2652 I gave up and just watched HG die... It was nice while it lasted.

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