So, I have been reading and commenting on this subject pretty heavily for the last 24 hrs. So as a community, I'm not sure we all agree on exactly what griefing is, especially in SOT. So specifically, in SOT, what is griefing. I would like to see evidence brought forth, as in video or sound evidence as to what you consider griefing, trolling or whatever. I will start.
Do you consider the following Griefing?:
Griefer?Troll? or NAW?
What IS Griefing in SOT?
I brough tthis same point up, all griefing depends on the POV. I jumped in a game the Crew brigged a person for not helping do anything, but refusing to leave so a full hardworking crew could be. Now from his pov WE were the "griefers" (he even threatened to send in a complaint to try get the players banned) cause "all he wanted was to get a peg leg" BUT from our pov HE was the "griefer" by not doing anything help the crew and on our ships if youre not helping you may as well be an enemy on our deck.... so brigged. Imho, the True Griefers are all the "we need a safe zone", ect type posters/players that want to try and remove all the "Pirate" aspects of the game.....but that my opinion.
@balloonzoo46093
If i think of griefing or trolling, there are not many ways to do so in SOT.
It happend to me once that a team of 4 guys just camped on an island without a ship and killed me while camping at my starting ship about 3 times. I quickly get back to main menu and started a new session, problem solved.
Those guys at RARE done very well avoiding such stuff i think, because there are not pretty much progress that needs your actual session and get lost if you switch it.
Anything else is just game mechanic and if someone thinks getting killed or getting robbed is griefing or trolling this is definetely not the right game for this sort of person. I dont looked the whole video in detail, but all i've seen is just what this game is about.
If you dont want to get robbed in a pirate game you're free to flee. The better crew will win the chase.To me most griefing consists of stopping others' play for no return other than some troll-like satisfaction. Obviously some of that happened during the betas/tests because there was no progression so it shouldn't bee seen in the same way as in the full game imo.
Generally it's accompanied by some less family friendly commentary towards the griefed. You know, a full Galleon crew spawn killing a solo player while calling you names just for "the lols", sinking spawning sloops on outpost or following them to the next spawn just because continuously.. etc In my experience it always comes with a specific attitude attached to it.
And yes, you can scuttle and such but normally they'll find and follow when your ship spawns again and so on. It's the attitude, name calling and no reward that makes it griefing for me. I guess a crewman trying to troll could be considered as well but that's easier to stop. Even if it does need some patience and time to "win" in that scenario (specifically in a sloop where there is no brig)
@cpoky said in What IS Griefing in SOT?:
I brough tthis same point up, all griefing depends on the POV. I jumped in a game the Crew brigged a person for not helping do anything, but refusing to leave so a full hardworking crew could be. Now from his pov WE were the "griefers" (he even threatened to send in a complaint to try get the players banned) cause "all he wanted was to get a peg leg" BUT from our pov HE was the "griefer" by not doing anything help the crew and on our ships if youre not helping you may as well be an enemy on our deck.... so brigged. Imho, the True Griefers are all the "we need a safe zone", ect type posters/players that want to try and remove all the "Pirate" aspects of the game.....but that my opinion.
Interesting. So based on one of the DEV videos I saw what that crewmate did was griefing. By THEIR own words and is a perfect example of the entire idea behind the "Brig". Its exactly the situation they created it for.
YES. This is my opinion I think. If you watch the video you just explained what they did. HOWEVER, and this is why I asked the question, because of what SOT is, a pirate simulation, do we in SOT consider that "Griefing" is actually PART OF THE GAME? If so, from a community we need to just understand that Griefing is built into this game. I think the above points are all correct. Will I hate you for griefing me? YES. To I have to understand that its what I signed up for? YES.
So as a player what do I do? I know some of you are going to hate this because it falls under "Git Better" but I think, as I am doing now, you hook up with like minded players, you "GIT GOOD" as a crew, and you blow these blood thirsty heinous Pirates from the water for being umm, well, Pirate Code Breakers. As guilds you label them, you "Blacklist" them, you hunt them down and you destroy them on sight.
That is what REAL Pirates would have done! It was written in their actual code!
There is one thing I thought could alleviate some of this which is just an idea of mine. The introduction of an NPC only faction, The East Indian Company. A Merchant fleet that has cargo that can be looted. I honestly don't know how this game works without that and it very well may have that at release or in the future.@personalc0ffee yes I was doing my due diligence and testing all aspects of gameplay in alpha and beta
I feel the biggest form of griefing is when you spawn camp someone's ship/mermaid. I can't even count the amount of times I had got killed on my ship, left the ghost ship, and then as the white screen fades, BAM! Blunderbuss to face and back to the ghost ship I go! I get that ships will be attacked, sunk, robbed, etc. And I know I'm gonna get killed, that's all just part of the game. But the instant spawn killing, hunting Solo players for no reason, and anything else that makes the game literally unplayable for people: that will kill this game. And if s Dev reads this: please, PLEASE, find a solution to this!
@balloonzoo46093 man, I'm not gonna watch a half hour of some dude yelling obnoxiously!
I reckon that exploiting the spawning mechanic (particularly the godawful white screen of doom) to repeatedly kill someone before they can even move is definitely griefing.
I'm fairly sure that it was sorted out last beta.I also think spawning into a crew and being disruptive - chucking chests overboard etc would count as trolling right?
But that's what the brig is for.The other issue though, is that a group of 2 or 3 can join your 3man or 4man crew and vote you into the brig, then disrupt whatever you were up to.
That's griefing.Those are the only ways I know of so far.
Also, I hate the use of the word "toxic" to describe behaviour, it almost always makes me immediately disregard someone's opinion. Dunno why, I just find the word grating!
So I dunno what a "toxic" player looks like.
Maybe melty? Carrying a mop?@tm101593 said in What IS Griefing in SOT?:
Exhibit A: https://youtu.be/6724ozWnEbU
Exhibit B: https://youtu.be/LdJo69tOqzw
That is evidence for why we need a vote kick, and also why you are a d*ck.
@personalc0ffee sweet!
Thanks for the video summary!
It wasn't pleasant, trying to watch that dude yelling.
I'd say that based on your summary, he probably isn't a troll, but rather just an a*s.Just saw this. I was unaware that the Devs actually directly addressed what they consider "griefing" in their "Pirate Code"
"From the very beginning, we've been determined to make Sea of Thieves a truly welcoming world in which players of any creed, culture, age, skill level and circumstance can voyage without fear of friction or frustration. With that in mind, we've laid out a set of guidelines that we hope will help to keep the seas free of strife and grievance (beyond that stirred up in the course of a pirate's everyday activities).
The sacred bond between crewmates should never be broken, but even when waging war across the decks of rival raiders, all crews should ultimately hold one another in respect. So here for you to read, reflect upon and remember is the Sea of Thieves Pirate Code!Article 3: Disputes Are Settled upon the Waves
None shall quarrel or overly dissent against another crew, but let every engagement be settled by sword, pistol and good seamanship.
(In plain terms, if you are being a jerk, cussing out, or general just being a "griefer" or rymes with stick. You are in violation.)Article 5: The Crew Bond Is Sacred
Those who betray their crew and ship through griefing or trolling shall be sent to the brig.
(If you are rebellious to your crew, disruptive or uncooperative, you are a griefer and in violation of the code, penance is jail time.)
Article 6: Respect New Pirates and Their Voyage Ahead
May the old legends help to forge new ones: treat new pirates with respect and share your knowledge.
(Self explanatory)
Devs Discussion's on the Code: Forum Discussion
New York Comic Con 2017 PanelSo with that, My forever opinion on this matter is set. The Devs AND the community all decided TOGETHER what is and what is NOT griefing. If you violate the code you ARE griefing, if do not violate the code, you are just being a Pirate.
@personalc0ffee I hope so, from what I've heard, they fixed spawning AFTER your ship has sunk. My biggest concern is loading back to my ship, not to find it sinking, but perfectly fine with a Blunderbuss shoved up my...you get the idea.
@balloonzoo46093 I hope there is going to be a way to either vote or be able to put input on a players actions towards other players like a reputation if the player is friendly or a troll to possibly keep Griefers in check. I don't mean the PvP side more how the person acts in a crew bc blowing your own crews boat or throwing out chests is just dumb and childish and we are pirates we live by a code
I think Griefing should be based on a set a rules set by the developers. There is no moral compass in this game, and it is hard to say what is griefing/having fun.
There is a karma system in other games. You become good or bad based upon your action. I feel if you attack another neutral/good ship, then your karma will be bad. You begin to lose voyage opportunities and if need be then your only way of gaining gold is by stealing. The only way to obtain good karma is by helping others/npcs or pay a fine. If you are good and start attacking/killing other ships/people then your karma will become bad.
You don't need to get to the game to see griefing. You can see it here on the forum. I believe though it is a breach of the Code for it could constitute harassment in many countries.
You want to see who you'll be playing with :Just read page 3 and 4.
https://www.seaofthieves.com/forum/topic/34763/social-island-social-hub/110?page=3So I quit the thread, want to know what OP did ? Sent me a PM. I did not hide the name for I believe the mods should have intervened a lot earlier.
You are looking for toxicity and grievance, the forums be a good place to start.
@warndiz27 There is. You as a crew vote to put that player in the Brig or jail cell. They are locked in, cant get out without the crew voting to let them out (it takes multiple crew votes to do both). That player then has to choices, either convince the crew that they will play right so they vote them out of jail or kick themselves from that instance. Option 2 will leave your crew short by one man (3 man crew vs 4) but only until the system automaticly sends you a new player. In my experience this is usually less than 10 minutes. At launch it will probly happen very fast. Lastly, you yourself can just choose to despawn and start a new instance with a new crew. My personal belief is that it is best to team up with players you know, trust and have played with to avoid all that ugliness.
@rogueaxel said in What IS Griefing in SOT?:
I think Griefing should be based on a set a rules set by the developers. There is no moral compass in this game, and it is hard to say what is griefing/having fun.
There is a karma system in other games. You become good or bad based upon your action. I feel if you attack another neutral/good ship, then your karma will be bad. You begin to lose voyage opportunities and if need be then your only way of gaining gold is by stealing. The only way to obtain good karma is by helping others/npcs or pay a fine. If you are good and start attacking/killing other ships/people then your karma will become bad.
You can't really introduce a Karma system because combat and raiding other people is a core feature of the game - and I suspect that without the ever present threat of your ship getting sunk by some roving marauders, the game would be dishwater dull.
I think somebody said in this thread or another that it's griefing when it's somebody on your crew doing it - and really that's the be-all and end-all of it. It's always unpleasant when PvP goes from being a test of skill to actively trying to upset somebody and ruin their day - but how do you prove that? How do you account for it?
In the end, SoT looks like it's going to need a higher level of investment in time and co-ordination from people if they want to actively make others lives miserable - I suspect it won't work so well queuing with randoms because they'll want to move on and do something else. A weekend beta brings people together and while it's possible you'll have your mates all together to go out on a camping rampage, post release it might become harder to focus everyone down onto it.
Especially as it's not like Rainbow 6 when you can get your kicks immediately by shooting your team in the backs of their heads on spawn. Get a ship, get going, find somebody, catch them - etc etc.
@rogueaxel said in What IS Griefing in SOT?:
I think Griefing should be based on a set a rules set by the developers. There is no moral compass in this game, and it is hard to say what is griefing/having fun.
There is a karma system in other games. You become good or bad based upon your action. I feel if you attack another neutral/good ship, then your karma will be bad. You begin to lose voyage opportunities and if need be then your only way of gaining gold is by stealing. The only way to obtain good karma is by helping others/npcs or pay a fine. If you are good and start attacking/killing other ships/people then your karma will become bad.
I think they should do a stat check/match making thing. Be like "So Jimmy here has over 5000 player kills, so let's put him a server with other PvP focused players, while Billy has done over 100 fort raids and rarely attacks other ships so he can go over here." It's not perfect but it's an idea
@balloonzoo46093 True and I think that is a good way to deal with a person that is being a jerk but that still isn't going to deter that player from just continuing to ruin the game for others. I was just thinking a possible branding of that person like a black mark of sorts to try and make it harder for people to just jump on your boat do their damage and then get locked up bc it's to late and for those type of players they have already done their job and are happy to be kicked. I have been playing Ark for 2 years now which is all about community or tribe as it's called in game. The way Griefers are dealt with is in the players hands but they can be identified bc everyone that joins the server a text comes up giving you their gamer tag and says they joined the ark now if that person is a known Griefer they will be called out in a world chat and hunted down. Honestly I don't have to worry about this stuff I have a core group of friends I play with. I just want this game to succeed in their mission to bring players together and keep a solid gamer fan base bc it's going to be ruff putting PvE players with PvP players bc for some people it is one or the other and that's it for them Im excited to see this play out.
@balloonzoo46093 Yes that is what I'm imagining is the rise of the PvE players bc generally speaking they are more community based players I would love to see those PvP snobs that just do anything to break the game or take advantage of every little loop hole not to say there won't be but there is going to be a lot less opportunity with out a progression system that makes people OP giving a more even playing field for people that have a lot of other responiblites in life to get on and have a good time. I will stop filling this thread up with off topic aspirations. Thanks for replying and see you on the Seas
First of all, Griefing is causing someone grief and that's pretty much the end of the discussion. Neither the community or the developers can tell someone that they aren't upset or having a bad time. If you are ruining the game for someone you can't argue that you aren't, because your reasons don't change their feelings.
Me personally, the only thing that others did that ruined the game for me was the brig. Trying to play multiplayer and being put in the brig for no reason is really annoying. it ruined the game for me because I literally wasn't being allowed to play the game. So I gave up on multiplayer and just did solo and everything was better.
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