What do you think about exploits are ok?!

  • Stundorn
    Castaway
    Insider
    Founder

    In this thread an exploit was revealed to report it and then got moderated.

    A short discussion between me and @MomsNewDaddy followed.

    I read a lot of players, often the competetive and PvP focussed gamers like exploits and cheats and want everyone to adapt and "git gud" and "skilled".

    Well to me this has nothing to do with beeing good at the game and if one says skill means to circumvent intended animations and animation canceling or knowing exploits and using them for example is skill and not an exploit then i disagree.

    Yesterday we fought a brigantine that also seemed to exploit the lunge as they didnt had a stunlock after using it multiple times although they hit nothing (and also didnt grab a cannon).

    I wont discuss here, but appreciate every single opinion, be it mine or the contrary.

    Please tell us and Rare your stance about using exploits.

    Do you think everyone needs to adapt and thats it, like momsnewdaddy said or do you think its unsportive and needs to get fixed and punished until if used by anybody?

    I would like to encourage everyone seeing people exploiting to report it with video evidence.

    If we want this game to be succesfull and play it for some years further we should care for it, else the exploits will spoil the PvP for everyone who dont know or use exploits by the principles of good sports.

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  • ClosingHare208
    Marauder
    Insider

    @stundorn said in What do you think about exploits are ok?!:

    In this thread an exploit was revealed to report it and then got moderated.

    A short discussion between me and @MomsNewDaddy followed.

    I read a lot of players, often the competetive and PvP focussed gamers like exploits and cheats and want everyone to adapt and "git gud" and "skilled".

    Well to me this has nothing to do with beeing good at the game and if one says skill means to circumvent intended animations and animation cancelingor knowing exploits and using them for example is skill and not an exploit then i disagree.

    Yesterday we fought a brigantine that also seemed to exploit the lunge as they didnt had a stunlock after using multiple it multiple times although they hit nothing (and also didnt grab a cannon).

    I wont discuss here, but appreciate every single opinion, be it mine or the contrary.

    Please tell us and Rare your stance about using exploits.

    Do you think everyone needs to adapt and thats it, like momsnewdaddy said or do you think its unsportive and needs to get fixed and punished until if used by anybody?

    I would like to encourage everyone seeing people exploiting to report it with video evidence.

    If we want this game to be succesfull and play it for some years further we should care for it, else the exploits will spoil the PvP for everyone who dont know or use exploits by the principles of good sports.

    i think the quick moving treasure one should stay the rest should go

  • Stundorn
    Castaway
    Insider
    Founder

    @closinghare208

    Im OK with the lunge into water powerglide, but everything else spoils PvP for me or looks weird :-)

  • ClosingHare208
    Marauder
    Insider

    @stundorn said in What do you think about exploits are ok?!:

    @closinghare208

    Im OK with the lunge into water powerglide, but everything else spoils PvP for me or looks weird :-)

    me too the treasure one is good too

  • WolfManbush
    Champion

    Exploits I don't care about are stuff like shoveling faster and swimming/running loot faster etc. Weakening skellies with tall tales (out of all the things you can patch you patch this?)

    Exploits I do care about are stuff like people leaving/rejoining the game to achieve something like the emissary exploit

    I don't really care about people engaging in light cheesing for their personal qol experience they are pirates I expect them to but when it seriously affects the experience of others or the server I think it needs to be remedied asap

  • Xultanis Dragon
    Sailor

    @stundorn

    There is a fine line between exploits and mechanics discovered by players that aren't considered exploits.

    The term exploit is a very blanket term to basically mean anything in use that was not an intended game mechanic.

    Sword lunge WAS/USED to be an exploit until Rare decided that they like the mechanic.

    Unintended game mechanics start out as exploits until we have a definite stance from the Developers that they are not exploits and they are instead leaving it in the game. Thats the only way to tell if it is or not an exploit.

    Now the community as a whole can usually dictate this decision with how much they enjoy using the exploit and if it actually helps the game. Aka the Sword lunge.

    What about the discussion with the community as a whole though??

    The issue with most of these is that we have the hardcore groups that will latch onto ANY exploit possible and use it under the guise of "git gud".

    The reason why I don't like this mentality is because its really just a bunch of hooey and shenanigans. Its the speech of a crooked salesman or curropt politician that is trying to sell you a bunch of fairy tales. They will sit there and tout "I use it because it makes the game more challenging and skill based".

    This is completely and utterly false. They use it because its the EASIEST way to win. Has nothing to do with skill or challenge.

    Example -

    Lets say there is some obscure way to have all your pawns as queens at the beginning of every chess match, but only on the black side. They will pick black every game and use this exploit EVERY game and then say that "I use it because its more challenging and skill based this way."

    Negative. Gaming history has shown that PvP'ers don't use the most challenging meta, they use the highest TIERED meta, which is always the most exploitable, most powerful, and most successful meta in the game at that time period.

    The sad thing?? Is no amount of arguing with them is going to do anything. You won't be able to convince them otherwise.

    The only deciding factor in ANY of these arguments is the developers which unfortunately for Sea of Thieves, are non-existent. Dev's have tried to fix double gunning but have failed, however, their reluctance to remove the load out entirely has given some justification to the group of double gunners.

    We can help identify stuff but ultimately its Rare that makes these decisions. If only Rare could have taken a more open stance with the community as of late but they have been completely absent even BEFORE Covid lockdown.

  • Latro7553
    Seafarer

    I can accept all long term and well-known exploits (except maybe the underwater DPI one), because Rare has had enough time to fix them (therefore it would be unjust banning players over them).

    Rare clearly allows certain exploits—they even seem planned to be in the game (like the counter-intuitive wind sail direction for optimal speed (I love that exploit by the way), which requires meta research for most players to discover). Another one Rare obviously wants, is the run-carry item exploit (I see it in tutorials that were made years before I started playing).

    But, unless Rare produces a list of allowed and disallowed exploits (and, for them to be reasonable, with the promise to fix the disallowed ones as soon as possible), banning players for long-term or well-known exploits is unjust. They should be tolerated until remedied.

    But, also, the problem with the unintentional exploits is that every exploit, including the ones that Rare intended or tolerated after discovery, were all at first introduced after an update and not advertised. So, how are players supposed to know which is which without clarification from Rare?

  • D3ADST1CK
    Vanguard
    Insider
    Founder

    Do we really need to create duplicate threads for every pet grievance you have? This is along the same lines as your previous bait threads asking about Hardware Crosshairs, Double Gunning, Streamers and Server Hopping.

    When these topics pop up on the forums, and you discuss them in that thread you don't also need to create your own entirely new thread about the same topic.

  • JadeScissors32
    Castaway

    To make short work of this thread.
    Is this ethical or legal question?

    If its ethical than , some things people do in this game are just poor sportsmanship. I always go Really ? You are so bad that you have to do this ? But I understand some get desperate.

    If its legal type question than unless there is modification to hardware or software I am pretty sure is its legal.
    Somebody else explained to me this way.
    You can not get speeding ticket on the road with no speed limit.

  • Xultanis Dragon
    Sailor

    @d3adst1ck

    Even though he does have grievances with a lot of this issues, I think they fact he makes separate threads for each is to keep the discussion targeted. Its very easy for there to be multiple plot points for a discussion but the whole thread is discussion only 1 of those because of the sheer split between the community on the subject.

    Even though the replies are somewhat directed and heavy, at least his opening post for the threads are more about gauging the collective view of the community. Which is pretty much the reason for this thread.

    Don't misunderstand, I know what you are talking about, but I just realized with my earlier post, I think the main issue he is having and the main issue we are all having actually is the absence of Rare.

    We don't get much feedback from Rare as we did in the first year of the game. Even there monthly's are empty of any Q/A and in their streams they have avoided trying to really "answer" any questions. They only real question they keep hitting with a baseball bat is the PvE server question. Which I think is one of the reasons why they don't open up to us anymore because they just keep getting berated by "Hey can we have PvE servers" "Why don't you make PvE servers", Thousands of questions of the same question asked thousands of different ways.

    Do I blame Rare?? Yes and no. They aren't taking any HARD stances on anything and leave a lot of things unanswered or left alone.

    They usually go to answer is "only a small portion of the community blah blah so we don't see a reason to change it" which could mean they WOULD do something about it if it became a serious issue.

    "Server alliances aren't really an issue" - The whole community starts doing server alliances - "We had to address an issue about the game yada yada yada"

    Same thing with server hopping or double gunning.

    Rares effective stance is "if its only a small population, no need to bother with it".

    Again, I do and don't blame Rare. They used to be one of the most open developers for any gaming community and we basically shut them down with every change they ever made or spammed them with hate after every change.

    I think the bad reviews at launch and the constant anger from the community kind scared Rare into their hole.

    RARE TAKE A FREAKING STANCE!!! DOESN'T CARE WHO IS HAPPY OR WHO ISN'T, ITS YOUR GAME, YOUR VISION!!

    Be up front with us. If we aren't happy with the changes but you are, then tell us to shove it.

  • D3ADST1CK
    Vanguard
    Insider
    Founder

    @xultanis-dragon said in What do you think about exploits are ok?!:

    @d3adst1ck

    Even though he does have grievances with a lot of this issues, I think they fact he makes separate threads for each is to keep the discussion targeted.

    It's not targeted, it's spreading discussion across more than one thread because he makes duplicates about an issue he was discussing in a different thread. If anything it's diluting discussion, not focusing it.

  • Latro7553
    Seafarer

    @jadescissors32 said in What do you think about exploits are ok?!:

    To make short work of this thread.
    Is this ethical or legal question?

    If its ethical than , some things people do in this game are just poor sportsmanship. I always go Really ? You are so bad that you have to do this ? But I understand some get desperate.

    If its legal type question than unless there is modification to hardware or software I am pretty sure is its legal.
    Somebody else explained to me this way.
    You can not get speeding ticket on the road with no speed limit.

    Right, but ethics, morals and laws can be determined because they are written in policy, conscience, or legislation. The problem here (and you seem to essentially agree) is that it's not determinable without clarification from Rare.

    We can reasonably say "not desired," but we can't definitely say "not allowed" until Rare clarifies.

    It's so unreasonable to have exploits that are allowed and then exploits that aren't, but have no way to make the distinction, while players are punished for failing to make the distinction, lol. It would be a funny situation if not for how very frustrating it must be for the player who gets banned for it.

  • JadeScissors32
    Castaway

    @pirate-pambo I agree with that, if Rare does not like it, they will have to set things clear, instead of locking threads. Otherwise people will keep complaining and reporting others for something that Rare can't legally enforce it.

  • Clumsy George
    Champion
    Insider
    Founder

    i play on a Xbox and don't know much exploits , apparantly the swordlaunch is called an exploit but for me , and i think Rare as well, it is more a lucky glitch. Rare decided to keep it in as it has it's "fun" value...

    The other exploit Xboxers can do is spawncampnig , i know that some will heat up and re-use their pyre for me , but i know that some are constantly spawncamping in order to let other crewmates rob a vessel...But...why jump to exploits ? Simply ,because they are uncertain , uncertain about winning the "rematch" if someone comes back from the Ferryman...

    Every PvP based exploit comes down to uncertainty and fear of losing.
    There is no shame in losing , hell, our " last " fight , the one where Grimmy the Reaper laughs at you , we all lose nomatter how much we crawl , cry or pray...

    Spawncamping and shooting through walls and whatever else exploit can be used but i always ask myself this question: " Would i love to be treated like a football and kicked over and over again under the table without having one chance?"

    We should be aware that , when we use this " winning " tactics ,that we deny everyone a fair fight , and many have and will abandon this game just because of this ...The next question has to be , " will we enjoy this same game when you suddenly are the only crew on the whole server?" , because exploit behaviour in PvP will drain the Sea...

    We never attack a ship , that is our choice , we do defend our ship but if we board we keep it civil and we don't spawncamp. We feel we have the responsibility to play the game as it was meant to play and we like that players will come back again... We even add humour and cosplay in our comments so people that use a microphone can hear we may be over the top but in a funny way for us and as well for them...

    i will tell you a little anekdote ... A few weeks ago we attacked a ship where the crew was offshore ... Yes , i know you will call us yellow , but we had wraight balls and we wanted to get that accomplishment ranked up so we shot them and then two of us , simulaniously dived with both 5 planks in our pockets and bailed and repaired the ship as madman , we didn't steal a thing , got killed but i would have payed money to see their faces filled with questions and amazement that we attacked , repaired and bailed their ship and stole nothing...

    Those are for me ,real fun , moments in the Sea of Thieves , and yes ,you may call me Dinosaur , i don't have to attack nor exploit to have still Great , Thrilling Adventures and if i get killed ... So what ? It's a game , it won't bring me mentally down , i just need to fight better and faster but at my age ? That's an Utopian thought , and still i enjoy Sea of Thieves , since December 2016....

  • Stundorn
    Castaway
    Insider
    Founder

    @wolfmanbush sagte in What do you think about exploits are ok?!:

    Exploits I don't care about are stuff like shoveling faster and swimming/running loot faster etc. Weakening skellies with tall tales (out of all the things you can patch you patch this?)

    Exploits I do care about are stuff like people leaving/rejoining the game to achieve something like the emissary exploit

    I don't really care about people engaging in light cheesing for their personal qol experience they are pirates I expect them to but when it seriously affects the experience of others or the server I think it needs to be remedied asap

    i'm somewhat tending to adapt to that opinion recently and even include log-voting, because well "it's a pirate game" and where to draw the line about bad tricks?

    @pirate-pambo sagte in What do you think about exploits are ok?!:

    Rare clearly allows certain exploits—they even seem planned to be in the game (like the counter-intuitive wind sail direction for optimal speed (I love that exploit by the way), which requires meta research for most players to discover). Another one Rare obviously wants, is the run-carry item exploit (I see it in tutorials that were made years before I started playing).

    But, unless Rare produces a list of allowed and disallowed exploits (and, for them to be reasonable, with the promise to fix the disallowed ones as soon as possible), banning players for long-term or well-known exploits is unjust. They should be tolerated until remedied.

    But, also, the problem with the unintentional exploits is that every exploit, including the ones that Rare intended or tolerated after discovery, were all at first introduced after an update and not advertised. So, how are players supposed to know which is which without clarification from Rare?

    This is a good question and if we consider a Rare Moderator has edited the linked post to not reveal and share that exploit i have to ask why then?
    To keep talking the game is polished and has no serious or gamebreaking bugs and exploits?
    If some exploits are intended they need not advetise them, but allow the comunity to share them with everybody!

    I mean if you dont know half of the exploits and you meet that hardcore PvP crew you will have that feeling i often describe and makes people create threads that scream cheaters.
    The thing is, if Rare wants a wide, casual and family friendly community they have to work on exploits or they have to communicate them and make their community share their knowledge about how to exploit the game to stay competetive and not feel cheated by others.

    @D3ADST1CK well, maybe not, maybe ignore it, but it is what @xultanis-dragon said more of a "in generally" topic and the forum community. Feel free to call a moderator if you think it's inapropriate.
    I have strong opinion and i'm often not that much in line with many others, but this is my way.
    Sorry if you feel annoyed - but i can tell you, that is the norm for forums in general and SoT forum especially :D
    also for me sometimes - btw i remember i agree with you often and apreciate your suggestions and opinions AFAIR :)

    @jadeScissors32 good question - more of an ethical and good sportmanship one, but also from an economic standpoint and if it is good to have meta's that majority of players arent aware of and in case of losing to a crew using exploits feel cheated and get nuts over it in the forums.

    @clumsy-george sagte in What do you think about exploits are ok?!:

    We should be aware that , when we use this " winning " tactics ,that we deny everyone a fair fight , and many have and will abandon this game just because of this ...The next question has to be , " will we enjoy this same game when you suddenly are the only crew on the whole server?" , because exploit behaviour in PvP will drain the Sea...

    This is what i mean when i talk about having some empathy for your fellow players and what it needs to grow this game even further, why not have 50 Million players for example???

    To become lazy only because you were successfull until is a quick route to fall down from your high position more quick than you have climbed the ladder.

    Also, if you are good, why need or rely on questionable tricks/ exploits that make others feel cheated and not bested in the regular and intended way?

    And thanks @Xultanis-Dragon to see my intentions. I know i annoy some people and i come up with stuff that many dont bother, but i want to keep these things discussed and Rare have an eye on it.
    Why? To keep this game casual friendly, to keep this game successfull and attract more players and pirates having fun, play together be it cooperatively or competetively, but playfull, somewhat fair and at least a little bit empathic and not that passive agressive, elitist and derogative about other players.

    We share a world, the Sea of Thieves, were "on paper" everybody is welcome.
    To make that pious wish "on paper" come true, we all are asked to contribute and take care of what is good for the game and what is not.

    I wrote i tend to not bother anymore and use all exploits i know as well, but i cant get rid of the feeling that i wont do me, the game or the community a favor with this mindset.

    That's why i created that thread.

    thanks for reading.
    have fun - Stun 0/

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