Reputation - loss, risk and negativity.

@i-am-lost-77 said in Reputation - loss, risk and negativity.:

@lotrmith your perception of the playerbase is narrow and restrictive. Not everyone is hardcore grinding for PL but ppl (like me) would still like to reach it. Your assumption that people won’t engage in PvP Bc of the extra rep they can gain from PvE is overgeneralized. Did you ever consider that ppl might like to pvp Bc it is fun? That it’s a great change from the PvE voyage grind to go blow splinters in others? You perception of the game is that people only fit into the category of grinding for PL and that is just so false.

However ppl don’t have to be hardcore grinders to dislike a game they don’t feel rewards them for their invested time. This is not a survival game, the total loss is unnecessarily punishing for this type of game and actually discourages players from engaging in PvP as @AngryCoconut16 has described on multiple occasions. Less loss = more risky players = more PvP and loot on ships to steal.

This game has more in common with a survival game than you think. Not the least of which are the always on PvP and no safe zones.

Do you actually care to address any of the specific points or do you just care to make the same generalizations you accuse me of doing?

It's same loss, by the way. That's one of the points you glossed over. It's same risk, another point you glossed over. Your odds of winning a PvP battle are unchanged, still based solely on your skill, and you bet the same loot to be lost in the same way.

If you are unwilling to wager a dollar fighting another player for the chance at an unspecified reward, me putting $0.50 in your pocket isn't going to have any effect on your decision to bet the same dollar on the same fight at the same odds.

Also you can't have it both ways. Either players care about the rep or they don't. If they care about the rep, their time is best spent avoiding PvP as they currently do and this suggestion doesn't change that. If they don't care about the rep, then they simply care about losing to other players (else why does this thread exist), and again this suggestion doesn't change that.

@i-am-lost-77 said in Reputation - loss, risk and negativity.:

@savagetwinky

Your not supposed to horde items or choose efficiency over securing loot at every possible opportunity.

This discourages PvP. If everyone starts turning in after every island it will take away from PvP gains. Can you not understand that? This is how people are starting to behave now and it slows PvE progression and hurts PvP. A lose lose situation for everyone.

But it also means PvP is worthwhile and players can be dangerous so the PvP that does happen is... meaningful and not frivolous because your guaranteed a portion of the rep.

And no one is turning in after every island. And no one is attacking at every island... or spring out of the water like a submarine. Aware players can spot and keep track of players while voyaging and make risk assessments during an entire voyage. And if it weren't for the PvPers disrupting voyages now no one would be here complaining... so people are PvPing.

Voyages are a set length doing side activities is a choice. I don’t think everyone will become hostile. I think more people will be willing to fight back when attacked which is a healthy design as opposed to fleeing or going to the Red Sea.

Well yah.. but its generally free loot. Nobody skips free loot on a beach, shipwreck, or a good bottle. A high level quest can easily end up 1-2+ hours depending on the size of the voyage... without disruptions.

And why would you think people would be willing to fight back? That makes no sense. They aren't willing to fight back when they stand to lose everything and dive into the red sea because they want to spite the other player for the inconvenience and.. it's faster. You clearly don't seem to understand why people go into the red sea. If your going to go to the red sea to dump your loot... 0 risk to PvP at this point... still choosing not to.

@angrycoconut16 said in Reputation - loss, risk and negativity.:

@lotrmith

So yet again no rebuttal at all.

@savagetwinky said in [Reputation - loss, risk and negativity.]

And why would you think people would be willing to fight back? That makes no sense. They aren't willing to fight back when they stand to lose everything and dive into the red sea because they want to spite the other player for the inconvenience and.. it's faster. You clearly don't seem to understand why people go into the red sea. If your going to go to the red sea to dump your loot... 0 risk to PvP at this point... still choosing not to.

There is so much truth to this it hurts.

Running into the red sea is the epitome of concession. You are prepared to sink your ship and lose all your loot, essentially a scuttle. Why not turn and defend? You cannot possibly lose any more than you are already prepared to.

The answer? Because you know you are going to lose. And players who know they are going to lose aren't going to feel any more confident with this suggestion than without. They stand to lose all the same, and as the red sea runners prove, even for those that do care about the rep, they care more about not losing it to someone else than they car about losing it at all.

@angrycoconut16 said in Reputation - loss, risk and negativity.:

@lotrmith Because it's pointless. Anything I say you will disagree with :P I could easily argue with you but then you reply I reply you reply I reply. We don't see eye-to-eye, you gotta learn to accept that and how to know when to stop, when someone disagrees with you :P

So again, no tangible rebuttal. Your points and your analogies are disproven and you don't care to defend them?

@angrycoconut16 said in Reputation - loss, risk and negativity.:

@savagetwinky No we don't ignore commendations in our arguments. I am making a point, and it is valid.

we, the counter argument, are ignoring commendations because they do not effect moment to moment gameplay which is where our argument originates from. It's not really countering our argument about how motivations effect choices on a voyage... it's just not a factor. I'm not choosing to ignore it, it's just not related to what are argument is about in moment to moment gameplay.

It's just a what-about-ism that seems related on the surface but is not... and is sort of a separate rep mechanic entirely. You won't address that part of the aspect so we are ignoring your repeated attempts at pointing it out.

And yes rep does need to be lost if it is going to function as reputation. You don't just have a certain level of respect or appeal for someone and that can never change? Of course not... if you mess up, if you make a mistake, if you do something terrible, you reputation can drop. That is literally what reputation fundamentally is, it isn't static, it can increase and decrease according to ones actions.
XP requires progression, it doesn't have to be mechanics or skills.. just progression. And this game has progression. Whether it's purely cosmetic or not is irrelevant. You gain progression and once gained you can't lose it. It literally couldn't be more different from reputation if it tried.

'XP' = experience points. It has always been a representation for your in game's characters progression/abilities.
Reputation = how in game world perceives said in game character... there is no need for loss of rep for this to work this way.

Your conflating the two and don't understand what they actually represent.. or why they are called different things. Although some games tend to conflate the two, there is a distinct difference.

Also... note... players can steal your potential reputation gain. Thus reputation loss! And its designed to be tied to loot and permanent after turn in so you don't lose it when you essentially fail a voyage and lose the loot.

Like I said. I'd rather have sharks with lazer beams so why would I care about realism? We are already killing undead skeletons.

This games progression doesn't represent the player character at all. It gives you access to vendor rewards, or access to a new alliance... higher rank voyages, etc... none of the effects of the progress relate specifically to the character... but to how the world perceives your character. Even the coveted max rank is a title bestowed upon you, pirate legend, that is a distinguished reputation.

@lotrmith The point is the motivation of dumping loot has nothing to do with the value of the loot any more. It's out of complete spite. And if you always want to lose... keep running into the red sea. I don't see why the game should try to cater to players that don't want to fight at all when you bought a pvp game about fighting pirates that try to steal your loot.

@touchdown1504 said in Reputation - loss, risk and negativity.:

@lotrmith said in Reputation - loss, risk and negativity.:

@savagetwinky said in [Reputation - loss, risk and negativity.]

And why would you think people would be willing to fight back? That makes no sense. They aren't willing to fight back when they stand to lose everything and dive into the red sea because they want to spite the other player for the inconvenience and.. it's faster. You clearly don't seem to understand why people go into the red sea. If your going to go to the red sea to dump your loot... 0 risk to PvP at this point... still choosing not to.

There is so much truth to this it hurts.

Running into the red sea is the epitome of concession. You are prepared to sink your ship and lose all your loot, essentially a scuttle. Why not turn and defend? You cannot possibly lose any more than you are already prepared to.

The answer? Because you know you are going to lose. And players who know they are going to lose aren't going to feel any more confident with this suggestion than without. They stand to lose all the same, and as the red sea runners prove, even for those that do care about the rep, they care more about not losing it to someone else than they car about losing it at all.

I partially agree with this. My issue, and running the Red, is more a protest than anything else. As I have mentioned before, I truly love slinging cannonballs. I logged in today just for that purpose! So, yeah, when I (as in me, I can't speak for the rest) head to the red, it is more about making sure YOU can't have the Rep. It is not about saving the rep, because at that point I am losing the loot too. Again, this is just me, if Rep was preserved (through whatever idea we are on in here) I would, beyond a doubt fight. I just have an issue with giving someone else my XP. It makes me feel like I am the game content...I simply don't like it. That won't change.

So only with complete detachment of the rep from the loot (ie your suggestion to award all of the rep on VC) would you be more willing to engage in PvP more often?

@savagetwinky said in Reputation - loss, risk and negativity.:

@lotrmith The point is the motivation of dumping loot has nothing to do with the value of the loot any more. It's out of complete spite. And if you always want to lose... keep running into the red sea. I don't see why the game should try to cater to players that don't want to fight at all when you bought a pvp game about fighting pirates that try to steal your loot.

Oh absolutely, I was just using that to demonstrate another point about the portion of the playerbase that truly is the target of this suggestion. To put it mildly, players with poor odds of winning a battle now who choose to run at every turn (even going so far as to dump in the red sea) are going to have those same poor odds with or without this suggestion and are still going to choose to run at every turn.

@touchdown1504 said in Reputation - loss, risk and negativity.:

@lotrmith said in Reputation - loss, risk and negativity.:

@savagetwinky said in [Reputation - loss, risk and negativity.]

And why would you think people would be willing to fight back? That makes no sense. They aren't willing to fight back when they stand to lose everything and dive into the red sea because they want to spite the other player for the inconvenience and.. it's faster. You clearly don't seem to understand why people go into the red sea. If your going to go to the red sea to dump your loot... 0 risk to PvP at this point... still choosing not to.

There is so much truth to this it hurts.

Running into the red sea is the epitome of concession. You are prepared to sink your ship and lose all your loot, essentially a scuttle. Why not turn and defend? You cannot possibly lose any more than you are already prepared to.

The answer? Because you know you are going to lose. And players who know they are going to lose aren't going to feel any more confident with this suggestion than without. They stand to lose all the same, and as the red sea runners prove, even for those that do care about the rep, they care more about not losing it to someone else than they car about losing it at all.

I partially agree with this. My issue, and running the Red, is more a protest than anything else. As I have mentioned before, I truly love slinging cannonballs. I logged in today just for that purpose! So, yeah, when I (as in me, I can't speak for the rest) head to the red, it is more about making sure YOU can't have the Rep. It is not about saving the rep, because at that point I am losing the loot too. Again, this is just me, if Rep was preserved (through whatever idea we are on in here) I would, beyond a doubt fight. I just have an issue with giving someone else my XP. It makes me feel like I am the game content...I simply don't like it. That won't change.

This mentality isn't healthy for a game like this. Even with increased rewards that they implemented today.. getting loot is trivial and the only reason it kind of exists is to fuel player interactions. If you don't like that premise... And it's why its reputation because its based on the amount of loot your bring back not.. time you've spent doing menial tasks.

This will be the only argument I make on what makes sense.. but... you aren't being tasked with "jobs". Your buying a map, or a location to go get a bounty from skulls or the location of value. GH/OOS won't care if you deliver or not.. but they pay on delivery.

The merchant alliance has jobs... but it's to deliver specific goods to a specific outpost... If you were a truck driver... and were asked to source and deliver goods.. you'd be paid on delivery. But most likely... you'd also lose rep if you missed a delivery.

Now any one willing to lose rep like we should based on the structure of the game?

@lotrmith said in Reputation - loss, risk and negativity.:

@savagetwinky said in Reputation - loss, risk and negativity.:

@lotrmith The point is the motivation of dumping loot has nothing to do with the value of the loot any more. It's out of complete spite. And if you always want to lose... keep running into the red sea. I don't see why the game should try to cater to players that don't want to fight at all when you bought a pvp game about fighting pirates that try to steal your loot.

Oh absolutely, I was just using that to demonstrate another point about the portion of the playerbase that truly is the target of this suggestion. To put it mildly, players with poor odds of winning a battle now who choose to run at every turn (even going so far as to dump in the red sea) are going to have those same poor odds with or without this suggestion and are still going to choose to run at every turn.

I honestly didn't realize someone else interjected there, though I was responding to the other one.

A little bit of rep on voyage complete would go a long way to people actually finishing voyages, I quite like the commendations and I want to complete voyages, but most people just do the most valuable thing, cancel off and start again. If you're not bothered about commendations there's no incentive to ever finish a voyage. Plus if you don't have a huge amount of time and something goes wrong (pvp, a storm, the Kraken etc) suddenly you've lost everything you've worked for and that's pretty much your day ruined. Even if it wasn't much something for all that work would be much appreciated

@touchdown1504 said in Reputation - loss, risk and negativity.:

@lotrmith No. You misunderstand me.

I enjoy PvP, well ship vs. ship. The FPS PvP in this game is like my Daughter's Roblox game....Horrible! But I engage in that too and play the whole sword lunge jumping fest nonsense, out of necessity.

I love ship battles. They are a blast. Was in a three way battle a few weeks ago that ended with all of us sharing grog by the camp fire on the beach in cannon cove. When I log in now (rarely) I only do so to battle on ships. I don't do voyages at all anymore. So, to answer your question...

I will not engage in PvP if there is a significant haul on my ship. To me the loss in XP is not worth the time I spent trying to earn it. The risk of loss is not a gamble worth taking. So, I will not engage if the Reputation I am carrying on board can be taken by someone else. If I am placed in a position where I can't do fly bys on an outpost, I will head to the red (BTW this is more rare than people think, I have done it twice...EVER, Fly Bys work fine usually). My motto is....If I can't have it....Neither can you! If reputation was covered rather it be the way I mentioned a long time ago, or some other way, then I would engage with loot on board. If all I am risking is the gold, than I would engage every time. Like I said a long time ago, time invested is what I am really risking, my time is valuable. I will not give it to anyone else. Simple as that.

For the record I have no problem with this mentality or behavior but I thank you for your honesty; It helps disprove OP's argument.

@touchdown1504 said in Reputation - loss, risk and negativity.:

@lotrmith I'm not trying to disprove anyone, or prove anyone for that matter. I am simply saying my stance on it. Look, I am an old man. Much older than many of you would likely guess. I played video games before most people had color TVs! For reals. NEVER have I played a game where the XP is stolen. Soooo...my only recourse is simply be a d**k, and make sure those chasing me can't have it at all! S*x, but that is how I am playing until it changes.

Yes, I understand completely and I thank you for your insight, truly.

@angrycoconut16 said in Reputation - loss, risk and negativity.:

A lot of negativity recently, lets have something a bit more positive...!

Official Sea of Thieves Developer Update: May 15th 2018

Awesome trailer for hungering deep later this week! :)

What does this add to the discussion?

Hi everyone. Just a friendly reminder that as per the Forum Rules we all must remain respectful towards all other community members when posting on the forums. Failure to remain respectful of all community members will result in a temporary ban from the forums.

Please read and abide by the forum rules going forward.

Thanks!

@angrycoconut16 No citations, just understanding of how the process is some I myself am a game designer. Though I haven't done any big projects like this, I know the processes are very similar. Everything has a purpose in game design. There are other ways to solve it, though. Your way would work if they set up their systems in a simple manner, but I have a feeling it's rather complex.

@touchdown1504

I've already explained "a game like this" extensively.. to you.

And that mentality that your entitled to the 'xp' in a game that is designed receiving rep for delivering loot to one of 3 factions.. You've completely misunderstood the point of the rep and what the missions are for, and how the progression plays into it. This would be akin to landing on some ones property in monopoly and throwing away all your money so they can't have it... instead of playing the game that is presented before you. And complaining about working hard for the 'XP' (monopoly bucks) because anything that counts up that is a form of progression must be 'XP' and they don't deserve the 'XP' you worked so hard for.

I've read a few more of these now, I think I understand some of the miscommunication. Now I can only speak for myself, but reading back I think people will agree with me. I'm lvl 40+ in each of the 3, and I have more money than I need, earning money isn't an issue, but if I ever hope to reach legend I need rep. As it stands though the only way to earn rep other than cashing in is via commendations. Most of these also require handing in. If I have three hours before work and I choose to use it playing this game I would like very much to see some sort of result from that. If someone robs me, or I screw up, or the Kraken does me in that's 3 hours down the s*****r. Now with private groups it should be a little better cos you can just hand in more often, but I don't think I'm alone in thinking it might be nice to receive a small amount of rep just for finishing the voyage. It would definitely increase PvP for me since I don't need the money, order of the souls especially, once I've killed the captain for progress towards voyage and commendation and achievement I could just leave the skull quite happily and fight, currently however even a foul bounty skull is worth ramming full speed onto an outpost for. If I got rep just for finishing the voyage though I could fight and win or lose I could pick back up where I left off. If this attitude was shared pvp returns would go up for the victors as more people would enter fights with something on them. It's a win win, I really don't see why anyone thinks it's a bad idea.

@reedski If you'd actually read even a fraction of the replies you'd know why some people think it's a bad idea.

And come on... three hour session for a level 40+ you know quite well the risk you take and have made conscious decisions to not turn even slightly aside to drop off at an outpost in that time frame. Be real.

@reedski I think we understand that, but the point we are making is... it's really unlikely to work in practice. Its easy to say now when you can ask for something but

I choose to use it playing this game I would like very much to see some sort of result from that. If someone robs me, or I screw up, or the Kraken does me in that's 3 hours down the s*****r

You've just declared losing rep = waste of time.

The main arguments against it is.. people that view the value of their time based on the rep they receive won't likely Pvp more because, it serves no purpose. I honestly don't believe the rest of your position that you'd be willing to Pvp more. Which is a problem for both of us in the communication because unless your presented with the opportunity of everything vs nearly all of it.. it will be hard to believe you until proven otherwise.

And this contradiction:

I could just leave the skull quite happily and fight,
If this attitude was shared pvp returns would go up

Which reward? The one you left to save a couple of trips off the boat or didn't even leave the boat after a naval bombardment?

And to attempt to tip this into a balance that is acceptable 'loss' we'll move closer and closer to more frivolous pvp activity and leaving items behind. And more Pvp activity that is well.. completely inconsequential for everyone we'll just move this problem to being able to complete quests in a timely manner... because now you have to slog through to the end to make up a small amount of everything you've lost every time someone decides to attack, oops you've got to leave for work though.

We'll be taken the value of Pvp away so you can reach pirate legend more easily when that only grants you a mechanism to fully load up on more voyages so you get to spend more time collecting loot all afternoon. Why not... not worry about what you've lost and just enjoy the time you spend in game?

And lastly... it's not like people aren't having rewarding experiences PvPing… otherwise what's this thread for?

@SavageTwinky

"What matters at the end of your adventure is if you enjoyed the moments of attaining the loot or losing it."

If you are running from guys who chase you for 45 minutes while you have all your loot from the past 2 hours there is not a way to suddenly enjoy those moments. Many players are aggressive to a fault. 45 minutes of doing nothing but trying to catch the other players who want nothing to do with you means people who just wanted to log in and gain some rep and gold while their kids are down for their nap now have 0 gold or rep because the kid is up crying and after 45 minutes of chase you have to step away from the helm and they catch you.

Why come back when i could play another game that fits my schedule better and i dont have to deal with a******s being a******s for their own narcissism.

Many games have been made that are based on the PC running the world. This game is a pirate sandbox, and the more tools that you have as players is important. right now most players find Ship V Ship battles some of the most fun moments in the game. Because the PVP and PVE take place in the same server, with no distinction between zones, islands, no safe areas ect. Those who want to PVE are the targets for those who PVP simply based on server numbers with only like 5 ships on a server its pretty easy for players who want to PVP to not find other ships that are focused on PVP. This tool will allow for the PVE players to transition from running to considering the anchor turn and fight option. But If all the value is in the treasure they already have there is 0% chance fighting is better than running.

@kenji-salk said in Reputation - loss, risk and negativity.:

@touchdown1504 I have moderated your post as it goes against the Forum Rules.

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just make forums 18+ please we dont have delicate ears we are pirates !@#$%@#$

@blappo-spawn

You can't blame the aggressor when both players are equally stubborn leading to a 45 min chase. He's also playing the game correctly.

And most players do not make a distinction between PVP vs PVE. They play both, they'll do voyages and attack when it's a potential opportunity. Trying to say that PVP players just roam around hunter PVE players is completely baseless and nonsensical.

Why come back when i could play another game that fits my schedule better and I don't have

Well that's a good question. And I do have sympathy for you. There are many games that I really want to play but don't enjoy how the content is setup or progression is structured.

Like I don't understand the perspective of if I lose rep the game was a waste of time. If Pvp happened in World of Warcraft it could stop your progress. Oh the days at SS. But, the point is WoW has an inordinate amount of recycled content presented differently and in some interesting locals... but that game is designed to chisel away redundant content, and you need to keep up with friends or you'll be behind. Although I stopped playing wow because the time commitment for dailies and stuff were too much. It just devolved into 30 different very specific tasks to complete on a regular basis. With so much stuff thrown in its surprising how restrictive it became. And PL has no intrinsic value so SoT is my new game, because there is no commitment/progression necessary and pirating is fun. But it has stupid amounts of freedom in the approach to the game world. It literally has a 2 step gameplay loop.. 1. Find loot 2. Deliver Loot

And this is a serious question, without a structure to chisel away at content... the mission progression just increases the amount of potential loot targets... and PL just wants your entire afternoon filled with... the same potential loot targets... why is it so important to get rep? To me it's important enough to create tension where you might lose it but reaching that goal isn't so important that I've lost anything worthwhile. Even when defending 2 hours worth of loot in a solo sloop... or 4+ hours worth lost to a missing wallet and pizza delivery guy.

And in your situation what are you going to do about PL where you have to slog out an hour + mission and your child wakes up. Although if your slow you might reach PL at the same point you can spread cookie crumbs all over his/her shirt and send her/him to her/his room and play.