End Two-Piecing Now (Rapid firing and switching of two guns)

  • Stryker Osiris
    Champion
    Insider
    Founder

    With the release of "The Arena" just on the horizon, I believe it is time to correct the problem that is "two-piecing". This is when a player has two weapons equipped and can fire the first weapon, switch to the second weapon, then fire again all in literally a blink of an eye. This is a massive problem that I believe needs to be corrected NOW if we want to keep PVP fun and fair especially when competitive game play is introduced. I don't believe the game was made to make this possible, but it is an exploit that needs to be ended.

    -THE PROBLEM-

    TWO PIECING IN SOT VIDEO

    I created this video to show off the unfairness of two-piecing in Sea of Thieves. When you fire a weapon, switch to your secondary and then fire again you are basically guaranteeing a kill. Since there's no recoil after firing, there's 100% hip-firing accuracy and no weapon ready-up animation a player can effectively kill you instantly if they line up one shot.

    From when the first bullet impact animation appears to the second bullet impact animation appears, only 8 frames have passed. That's less than half a second! Where I'm aiming hasn't even shifted, so if this were a player I'd still be perfectly aimed at them. This is grossly unfair and needs to be addressed. I understand there are things like bullet drop in the game to make weapons more difficult to handle, however this is a problem for combat done at close range. The Blunderbuss is the CQC weapon that should be used when up-close and personal, but even this weapon doesn't kill you in less than half a second. It requires the player to reload before it can fire again, giving the attacked player time to heal or fight back. That is a perfect balance in my opinion.

    -THE SOLUTION-

    I have come up with some possible solutions to correct this issue that I believe are fair and wouldn't alter the game play too vastly. These ideas of course don't have to all be implemented, but just one or a combination of a few would correct this two-piecing issue.

    1. Make the sword a required weapon, therefore only giving you one gun
    2. Add weapon recoil so that way when you fire and switch to your next weapon you would shoot over the player, or at least not exactly on them still
    3. Make there be a required weapon ready-up animation that takes a second to complete before you can fire it.
    4. Slow down the weapon switching animation
    5. Make it so you aren't able to fire and switch weapons without completing a majority of the firing animation
    6. Nerf all weapon damage (LAST RESORT)

    All-in-all at no point during PVE would you ever need to switch and shoot weapons as fast as you currently can, so this wouldn't effect a majority of the combat experienced in the game. When "The Arena" releases I believe this issue will become more and more prominent as every player will be forced to use this combo to even have a chance to keep up. Right now, because PVP is less condensed you might not even really know that players are doing this. But as Competitive PVP gets integrated, this will surely turn into the Halo 3 "Noob Combo" of the Plasma Pistol and Battle Riffle. Its a cheap, and instant kill that takes less skill than actually killing someone fairly with other weapon load outs, and it was not intended to be so unfair.

    If you agree with this please Up-Vote it and spread the word. We need to end Two-Piecing in Sea of Thieves before "The Arena" gets taken over by players who are forced into using it to stand a chance at winning.

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  • AmbiguousMonk
    Insider

    I'd just like to say, thank you for making this post because things like this are still very much needed while it's still a problem. However, I am fairly sure this is a confirmed issue by Rare and they are working on it. A solution will probably be delivered with the Arena update itself, although with many other combat changes

  • Cyprium6907
    Master
    Insider

    This is definitely necessary for arena.

  • Nabberwar
    Lord
    Insider

    Personally, I don't have a problem with running double gun. Their is definitely quite a few downsides to this loadout. As well as counter strategy when dealing with this loadout. I think it needs to be said though, what can be accomplished with double gun can be accomplished with sword + blunderbuss or EoR. Option 1 can be thrown out based on this.

  • UltmateRagnarok
    Master

    @stryker-osiris

    I have never run into the problem of facing the 'double gun' loadout, as if you can dodge one shot that is a fairly large disadvantage to them. The guns are fairly well balanced, and the cutlass is actually the most OP weapon you have access to (cannon and gunpowder keg included). You can, while fighting a double gun loadout, outpostion them, cause them to miss, and hit them with a sword, stun-locking them until they die.

    There are also other one-hit methods in SoT, such as the Blunderbuss, which will one-shot you at close range; the Eye of Reach and sword swipe, which will do the same; the cannon, which can one-shot (on a direct hit), but is mounted; the gunpowder keg, which is one of the most powerful weapon in the game (without considering the stronghold variant), and can one-shot you at various ranges, but has limited amounts and considerable risk to the user.

    Also, the hip rire is not 100% accurate. There is some inaccuracy, enough to make it miss sometimes.

  • Ixxolos
    Lord
    Insider

    My suggested solution to this issue remains as follows.
    Give the Cutlass a chance to deflect incoming shots when you block
    (Held block for X% chance to deflect an incoming shot and or timing required with block key to deflect)

    This would allow players that use the current quick shoot tactics to continue using the tools they have within the game as this seems to be the preferred combat style of many a pirate i have met.
    This would also give Cutlass preferring Pirates (myself included) a much needed tool to counter the aforementioned tactic not only by other players but by skellies out in the world too.
    (looking at you Usain Bolt backwards sprint champion Eye of Reach skellington...how you are the bane of my solo sloopin....sigh i wished Rare would add you and was ecstatic when they did but now... now i'm not so sure i wanted that wish fulfilling).

    "Tools not Rules" how i love this sentiment

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    Double-tapping is a high-risk, high-reward tactic. If you miss even 1 shot, you're dead; if you're outnumbered, you're dead. It's these reasons why I think it's perfectly balanced.

  • AmbiguousMonk
    Insider

    @nabberwar the issue isn't double gunning, the issue is that the game essentially (not literally, but just about) allows a player to fire both guns at once. The video @Stryker-Osiris posted shows this well; there's only a 8 frame delay in being able to fire both weapons. That's a ludicrously small amount of time

    @UltmateRagnarok See above

    @Ixxolos There should absolutely never be any percentage based mechanics introduced. That's the opposite of the skill-based combat that the SoT devs are working toward. Introducing RNG elements to a PvP setting is always a poor design choice. The method of dealing with gun users as a sword user basically already exists: dodging and lunging. It requires the sword user to be very perceptive, but a dodge is plenty fast enough and long enough to avoid a bullet (assuming you have the room for a dodge, but that's just a matter of situation awareness, which is also a skill) and all the guns reload times are long enough to allow for a lunge or otherwise closing the distance

  • ChewyWarden
    Marauder
    Insider

    @stryker-osiris Double gunning is fine because if they miss they are screwed...

    Maybe rather than destroying creativity and variation, just learn to jump around and make yourself a hard target?

  • Nabberwar
    Lord
    Insider

    @ixxolos said in End Two-Piecing Now (Rapid firing and switching of two guns):

    My suggested solution to this issue remains as follows.
    Give the Cutlass a chance to deflect incoming shots when you block
    (Held block for X% chance to deflect an incoming shot and or timing required with block key to deflect)

    This to me is such an Identity breaker for me, it just feels so out of place within this game. Currently the Cutless is in a good state, but if some changes were to be added the most I might do it go the Counter Strike route. A simple flat movement speed buff could add the counter you request for. However, I still believe the Cutless is already in a good place, so I'd rather not see changes too it.

  • Ixxolos
    Lord
    Insider

    @ambiguousmonk For the PvP setting yes agreed, i did also suggest a timed block option however ergo skill based.
    The PvE setting is a different story i find though, sure the lunge and dodge both work well against other pirates but have little to no effect against the skelington aimlock at least for myself that is.
    Not that i'm saying you are unable to counter EoR and Pistols but more tools to do so would please me. Heck let holding out a Plank block an incoming shot?

  • Octopus Lime
    Master
    Founder

    I think the cutlass should be forced and then one gun option personally.

  • Nabberwar
    Lord
    Insider

    @ambiguousmonk said in End Two-Piecing Now (Rapid firing and switching of two guns):

    @nabberwar the issue isn't double gunning, the issue is that the game essentially (not literally, but just about) allows a player to fire both guns at once.

    With relation to the initial posters thoughts, it is about running a two gun loadout.

    -THE PROBLEM-

    TWO PIECING IN SOT VIDEO

    I created this video to show off the unfairness of two-piecing in Sea of Thieves. When you fire a weapon, switch to your secondary and then fire again you are basically guaranteeing a kill. Since there's no recoil after firing, there's 100% hip-firing accuracy and no weapon ready-up animation a player can effectively kill you instantly if they line up one shot.

    The initial poster explicitly names guns as the part of the problem, but also ignores the fact that it isn't only guns that this works for. The suggested solutions included one not allowing the use of two guns. The point I am trying to say is making people use swords doesn't solve that quick death as displayed in the video. Simply because you can quick switch into sword and get similar results. I stand by what I said, their exist counter play to what was displayed in the video.

  • D3ADST1CK
    Vanguard
    Insider
    Founder

    @octopus-lime I like the fact there is at least some limited loadout choice available, and I wouldn't want it taken away.

    The ability to fire both guns shouldn't be able to be done that quickly, so either the guns needs to be wildly inaccurate during the switch until they are "ready" or some kind of delay before being able to fire needs to be added.

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    @ambiguousmonk You forgot about the running slash technique. ;)

  • AmbiguousMonk
    Insider

    @ixxolos The counters to skeletons with guns are called corners. Conveniently found wherever there is a curved vertical surface

    @Nabberwar They mention guns because doing it with guns is the problem. Doing it with a cutlass is not nearly as bad a problem because you still have to be melee range with it to get a result. Using this with two guns allows you to instant kill people from across the length of a ship (I have a crew member that does this consistently. Given, he was amazing aim, but still, the point is it shouldn't be possible at all), especially if they're just spawning. Removing double gun loadouts is only one of the solutions they offered. I agree with you that double gunning should not be removed and should be an option, but like @D3ADST1CK mentioned, the ability to fire both guns at this speed should not be possible. The best solution is to simply not allowing attacking until the 'drawing' animation is complete (specific weapon balancing could even be done by adjusting the drawing speed of different weapons. e.g. pistol draws faster than EoR). This also prevents the melee instant kill for cutlass + gun, so really, everybody wins

    @galactic-geek you're absolutely right. That reinforces my point even more. Thank you :)

  • Nabberwar
    Lord
    Insider

    @ambiguousmonk
    Once again, my comment is directed at SOLUTION 1, I've made no claims on the other suggestions.

  • Ixxolos
    Lord
    Insider

    @ambiguousmonk sarcasm noted good sir i defer to your superior judgement.

  • AmbiguousMonk
    Insider

    @nabberwar that's fair. I do know some people think instant-shooting like this isn't a problem so it should be left in and I wasn't sure if that's what you were arguing for. My apologies for jumping the gun, so to speak

  • UltmateRagnarok
    Master

    @ambiguousmonk

    What about the Blunderbuss? It can one-shot at point-blank range. Granted, that is quite the difference from across the ship.

  • AmbiguousMonk
    Insider

    @ultmateragnarok The blunderbuss is fine, because it's pretty much totally useless at any other range besides melee range. It's actually easily the least powerful weapon in the game right now, in my opinion. It's only real purpose right now is for camping ladders

  • xCALYPT0x
    Master
    Insider
    Boatswain

    @stryker-osiris I appreciate that you included some suggestions instead of just complaining about the topic.

    First, I would avoid suggestion #1. Double gun is actually my preferred layout against Meg on a 2 man sloop. My partner on cannon while I'm gunning because I am not going to be able to use my cutlass. This is a valid tactic for certain situations and I don't think we should compromise them for the sake of PvP gunslingers.

    Second, as much as I HATE being killed by this, I personally don't agree that this style is actually OP in any way. It's effectiveness is reduced drastically at range, and in extremely close proximity. It's hard to be accurate with it from a distance on the second shot, and it's hard to be accurate when people are so close to you that you have to turn to see them. It excels in mid-range to semi-close proximity.

    The player is extremely vulnerable after initial execution and increasingly disadvantaged the longer the fight draws on (they need to reload and you know exactly where they need to be in order to do so).

    Further, running a two-gun load-out drastically reduces the players maneuverability because they sacrifice the sword lunge. Fights on the water mean they have to either swim, or use a cannon to launch themselves.

    Lastly, bullets do not penetrate, which means the player is giving up the only weapon that can do AOE or "collateral" damage (without a gunpowder barrel).

  • Nabberwar
    Lord
    Insider

    @ambiguousmonk
    If I were to Tier Weapons it would be

    1. Rifle
    2. Sword
    3. Pistol
    4. Blunderbuss

    Sword and pistol I can understand an argument for switching them, I just prefer the sword utility. However, Blunderbuss deserves lower on this list, but their isn't anymore weapons to put ahead of it. It's current state is pretty poor right now.

  • Qui3tCool
    Master
    Insider

    Forcing a sword as one option of the only two weapon options is not a good solution in the core game or the new upcoming arena mode. It is ridiculously sad that every game that has some sort of PvP, players worry about things being unbalanced and unfair to the point of removing things from the game or taking away from others.

    What is really unfair is when one set of players encourage developers with such concerns to constantly change things for everyone else to pacify the fear of being defeated unfairly in PvP. Hope we never see a time in Sea of Thieves when something is forced, removed, or otherwise has a negative impact in either mode to compensate the shared use in the other. Modify the use and damage if truly necessary as long as it works appropriately in both modes, on players and NPCs, but never take away choice.

  • Kzoo Kid
    Marauder
    Insider

    @xcalypt0x said in End Two-Piecing Now (Rapid firing and switching of two guns):

    @stryker-osiris I appreciate that you included some suggestions instead of just complaining about the topic.

    First, I would avoid suggestion #1. Double gun is actually my preferred layout against Meg on a 2 man sloop. My partner on cannon while I'm gunning because I am not going to be able to use my cutlass. This is a valid tactic for certain situations and I don't think we should compromise them for the sake of PvP gunslingers.

    Second, as much as I HATE being killed by this, I personally don't agree that this style is actually OP in any way. It's effectiveness is reduced drastically at range, and in extremely close proximity. It's hard to be accurate with it from a distance on the second shot, and it's hard to be accurate when people are so close to you that you have to turn to see them. It excels in mid-range to semi-close proximity.

    The player is extremely vulnerable after initial execution and increasingly disadvantaged the longer the fight draws on (they need to reload and you know exactly where they need to be in order to do so).

    Further, running a two-gun load-out drastically reduces the players maneuverability because they sacrifice the sword lunge. Fights on the water mean they have to either swim, or use a cannon to launch themselves.

    Lastly, bullets do not penetrate, which means the player is giving up the only weapon that can do AOE or "collateral" damage (without a gunpowder barrel).

    You make some good points however I think you quite overestimate the cons of double gunning and quite underestimate the strengths. It is true that there is counterplay to people who double gun. It is true that they are vulnerable when they miss. It is not true that double gunners are at any disadvantage at any range, except that they can't sword lunge. It is also not true that they are extremely vulnerable when they miss. Most people I encounter who use this "cheat" are pretty good regardless and don't miss without some very good effort put into dodging their shots. Even when you can dodge the double shot, they quite often hit at least one of their shots. This means that they still only have to shoot you one time after reloading to kill you. Most players will run and dodge while reloading so it's not easy to take advantage of this short window of vulnerability.

    I would prefer everyone be forced to use a sword, but I don't like the idea of forcing people to play how I want them to play. As you pointed out, there are valid non-PvP situations to use double guns.

    Regardless, the ability to use a macro to shoot two guns instantaneously should not be allowed to continue and honestly this should have been fixed a long time ago. As OP said, it definitely needs to be addressed before the release of The Arena. The Arena is probably SoT's only second chance to become a widely popular game and you can't afford to have the integrity of that experience tainted by system abusing that is so simple to fix before hand.

  • BoomTownBoss
    Rogue
    Insider

    I agree and hope this thread gains traction. I'm in favor of 3, 4, and 5.

  • AmbiguousMonk
    Insider

    @nabberwar I completely agree with that list

  • xCALYPT0x
    Master
    Insider
    Boatswain

    @kzoo-kid said in End Two-Piecing Now (Rapid firing and switching of two guns):

    @xcalypt0x said in End Two-Piecing Now (Rapid firing and switching of two guns):

    @stryker-osiris I appreciate that you included some suggestions instead of just complaining about the topic.

    First, I would avoid suggestion #1. Double gun is actually my preferred layout against Meg on a 2 man sloop. My partner on cannon while I'm gunning because I am not going to be able to use my cutlass. This is a valid tactic for certain situations and I don't think we should compromise them for the sake of PvP gunslingers.

    Second, as much as I HATE being killed by this, I personally don't agree that this style is actually OP in any way. It's effectiveness is reduced drastically at range, and in extremely close proximity. It's hard to be accurate with it from a distance on the second shot, and it's hard to be accurate when people are so close to you that you have to turn to see them. It excels in mid-range to semi-close proximity.

    The player is extremely vulnerable after initial execution and increasingly disadvantaged the longer the fight draws on (they need to reload and you know exactly where they need to be in order to do so).

    Further, running a two-gun load-out drastically reduces the players maneuverability because they sacrifice the sword lunge. Fights on the water mean they have to either swim, or use a cannon to launch themselves.

    Lastly, bullets do not penetrate, which means the player is giving up the only weapon that can do AOE or "collateral" damage (without a gunpowder barrel).

    You make some good points however I think you quite overestimate the cons of double gunning and quite underestimate the strengths. It is true that there is counterplay to people who double gun. It is true that they are vulnerable when they miss. It is not true that double gunners are at any disadvantage at any range, except that they can't sword lunge.

    I don't necessarily think they are at a disadvantage at long range. I am merely suggesting the insta 2-shot is not effective at long range. At long range they are just using the guns as two normal guns. At least, I have not seen many instances of people successfully pulling off the double-shot insta-kill at range.

    It is also not true that they are extremely vulnerable when they miss.

    I disagree, see below.

    Most people I encounter who use this "cheat" are pretty good regardless and don't miss without some very good effort put into dodging their shots.

    I can't really say with any accuracy. I have been watching Summit and he misses all the time. He's pretty darn good when it comes to fps shooters but obviously they don't all translate and SoT is different. It would also be unrealistic to draw a conclusion of the gameplay of a single player. I could add my own anecdotal experiences but that's not going to provide quality feedback either.

    Even when you can dodge the double shot, they quite often hit at least one of their shots. This means that they still only have to shoot you one time after reloading to kill you. Most players will run and dodge while reloading so it's not easy to take advantage of this short window of vulnerability.

    If they do miss one shot, it's exactly the same as carrying one gun and a cutlass and landing 1 shot. Shoot 1 time after a reload with either load-out and you have a kill.

    Obviously they aren't standing still while they reload but they can't sprint. That will interrupt the reload. The most they can do is move and jump. This is when you charge in with a cutlass and take them to town. They are also going to leave the eye-of-reach unloaded, mostly likely, to reload the faster flintlock. In this time, you scarf down a nanner and your enemy no longer has lethal damage. If they were a decent range from you when they shot and you cannot close the gap this gives you an opportunity to retreat, reposition, and heal.

    Regardless, the ability to use a macro to shoot two guns instantaneously should not be allowed to continue and honestly this should have been fixed a long time ago.

    Agree completely there. That's cheating and should be a ban-able offense.

    As OP said, it definitely needs to be addressed before the release of The Arena. The Arena is probably SoT's only second chance to become a widely popular game and you can't afford to have the integrity of that experience tainted by system abusing that is so simple to fix before hand.

    If it is going to be addressed then yes, I would agree it should happen before Arena. I just disagree that it needs to be addressed at all.

  • UltmateRagnarok
    Master

    @ambiguousmonk
    The thing about it is it is good at medium range (such as between the decks of two rammed ships), because it slowly whittles down the health of players slowly enough to make them not heal back until they can be shot with an EoR from somewhere else, or sworded from behind. It also is a good panic weapon, just firing in the general direction of a nearby threat.

  • AmbiguousMonk
    Insider

    @ultmateragnarok I don't think it has a place in medium range. Why whittle their health for an EoR when you can just have an EoR or pistol to shoot them with instead. The blunderbuss spread is so wide that it's not going to be any easier to hit with than the EoR or pistol. It's completely outclassed by every other weapon at medium range (even the cutlass, given that it has forward dodge and lunge)

  • UltmateRagnarok
    Master

    @ambiguousmonk Yes, but if there is something stopping you from lunging and you have the traditional ship-ship combat loadout (blunderbuss and cutlass), it is something, which is better than nothing. It is for when you don't have anything better. On flat ground, the sword is superior at that range, but not if a railing or gap is in the way.

  • Stryker Osiris
    Champion
    Insider
    Founder

    Reading back on every ones posts, it looks like the community is a bit divided. This is tough because I get that a lot of people use two-piecing and don't want to see it go, but some people (like me) cant stand it and believe it should be fixed. I will respond the individual inputs one at a time, but for now I think a great thing to remember is that everyone is entitled to their thoughts and opinions. Make sure you all respect each others ideas, which it looks like we are, and continue to make appropriate and constructive responses and rebuttals.

    Thank you to all who have responded so far. Together we all help craft and shape this game but at the end of the day the developers have the final say. If they see fit to change this, then we know they agree with the side that believed it should not have been in the game to begin with.

  • Stryker Osiris
    Champion
    Insider
    Founder

    @nabberwar said in End Two-Piecing Now (Rapid firing and switching of two guns):

    Personally, I don't have a problem with running double gun. Their is definitely quite a few downsides to this loadout. As well as counter strategy when dealing with this loadout. I think it needs to be said though, what can be accomplished with double gun can be accomplished with sword + blunderbuss or EoR. Option 1 can be thrown out based on this.

    I wish this were true, but the sword is significantly slower to draw and swing after shooting from a gun. Its roughly double the length of the draw and shoot time. the sword can only be switched after the entire swing animation is complete which is something the two-piece combo doesn't require.

    Also, not to mention the sword can only hit someone at close range and both the pistol and sniper can hit close, medium and far away targets. Therefore, the sword and gun combo is still more balanced than the pistol/sniper combo.

  • Stryker Osiris
    Champion
    Insider
    Founder

    @ultmateragnarok said in End Two-Piecing Now (Rapid firing and switching of two guns):

    @stryker-osiris

    I have never run into the problem of facing the 'double gun' loadout, as if you can dodge one shot that is a fairly large disadvantage to them. The guns are fairly well balanced, and the cutlass is actually the most OP weapon you have access to (cannon and gunpowder keg included). You can, while fighting a double gun loadout, outpostion them, cause them to miss, and hit them with a sword, stun-locking them until they die.

    There are also other one-hit methods in SoT, such as the Blunderbuss, which will one-shot you at close range; the Eye of Reach and sword swipe, which will do the same; the cannon, which can one-shot (on a direct hit), but is mounted; the gunpowder keg, which is one of the most powerful weapon in the game (without considering the stronghold variant), and can one-shot you at various ranges, but has limited amounts and considerable risk to the user.

    Also, the hip rire is not 100% accurate. There is some inaccuracy, enough to make it miss sometimes.

    I would have to disagree with just about everything in the post unfortunately. Let me tell you why...

    1. The blunderbuss is not a one hit kill at point blank range. I urge you to test this for yourself.

    2. The gunpowder keg has really nothing to do with the argument, but if you would like to bring this up then okay. Yes this is a one-hit kill only in range, but unlike the two-piece combo, the one using the keg can kill themselves in the process. Not to mention, you cant click a button on an enemies ship and spawn infinite kegs and continue to spawn kill players. This is part of the balanced risk-reward system. The ammo is infinite for players on enemy ships therefore they can continue to spawn kill you over and over without any repercussions to the user.

    3. The sword is not OP because no matter how good you are with it, it cant kill you from close, medium, and far range. Its powerful, yes, but not cheap. Its still balanced in the sense that its only for certain circumstances and not meant to be a exploit for all pvp encounters.

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