Forsaken shores is a great update that is plagued by the same poor design choices.

  • The Forsake shores adds some great content(like actual content) to the game. However, very poor design philosophies that have held this game back since launch are still being implemented in this newest addition to SOT.

    First I'll start with what "Forsaken shores" does well.

    • Art: The new theme is amazing and immersive. Nothing new to SOT since the map design has been the best thing about this game since launch.
    • Environmental threat: Rares first attempt at environmental threats was poorly executed. Randomly spawning snakes that spit venom when you get close, and randomly spawning skeletons were boring at best and session ruining at worst(anyone who's been solo and had a cannon skeleton randomly spawn and lock you in a 5 min loop of you repairing/bailing water will understand). FS by comparison is a breath of fresh air. Falling rocks, boiling water, fault lines, ang geysers(or geezers apparently) are incredibly immersive and fun environmental "threats". I put "threats" in quotations, because unlike the horrendous snakes, you can use them to benefit you(using an old geezer to launch you up on a ledge, baiting skeletons to their death, etc.).
    • Rowboats: Tons of fun and an amazing addition that I was very much disappointed not to see at launch.
    • Bilge Rat commendations: I was very much disappointed by the "events", but my biggest gripe was that Rare was spending time and resources to add things to the game(which it desperately needs) only to take it away after a few weeks. They are still very lackluster, but the decision to give players the option to go back and get the doubloons at any time is the right one. I very much hope that Rare continues to provide permanent content that adds lasting value to the game.
    • Cosmetics: Lots of new cosmetics that have new designs and aren't just recolors is nice.
    • Inventory changes: They are great and everyone knows why. Moving on.
    • Sea merchants: This is a huge improvement to the game that I think is VERY much being overlooked. Sure the implementation needs some work(store inventories are too limited, NPC's are still bland and hard to tell that they are different people, etc), but having NPC's out in the world makes a HUGE difference in making the game feel more alive and lived in. PLEASE continue in this direction Rare.

    Unfortunately now get to the list of bad things(a big list). Almost all of "FS" problems stem from Rares design philosophies in general rather that something specific/unique to "FS", so i will be addressing the general problem and how they relate to "FS" problems.

    The Problem

    • Ai targeting and unavoidable dmg: This has been a problem in this game since the beginning. Most dmg sources in the game a virtually unavoidable, and in a game where you have non-regening HP this is a very bad design choice. Most shooters have unavoidable dmg because you have health regen. The dmg you take acts like a timer. You have X amount of time to kill the enemies(the more you kill the more time you have) before they kill you or you need to get back behind cover. Games like halo and doom add another layer to this time by giving enemies weapons with slow projectile speeds which allows the player to dodge dmg(which gives them more time). This in turn rewards players the more they challenge themselves(shooting targets quickly while standing still is good, but if you can shoot targets while moving(which is more difficult) it's better). If you choose not to give players health regen, then you have to give them clear ways to avoid taking dmg such as in Dark souls or Cuphead. The current ranged Ai in this game simply doesn't work well with how healing/repairing works in SOT. The volcanoes are not a problem because they erupt to frequently, they are a problem because Rare thinks it's ok for enemies to deal dmg to you with no counter-play other than "don't be there". The of "shoot, take dmg, eat bannan, and repeat" or " Take dmg, plug hole, bail water, and repeat) is bad design. If you take dmg in SOT it should be because you made an error, NOT because you just happen to be on the same plain of existence as a skeleton with a gun.

    Solutions

    1. Volcanoes and geezers should NOT have any form of targeting. It should be completely random. The amount of projectiles would need to be increased so that the volcano still poses a threat.
    2. Add sound effects to falling rocks that act as a warning to players.
    3. Cannon skeletons should not spawn at all on regular islands after you are already in the area. Searching an island for treasure only to hear cannons firing on your ship is NOT fun game-play. It is just frustrating and annoying.
    4. Skeletons need a new weapon(throwing bones, fire balls, etc) something that lets players avoid the dmg with their actions. Guns are far to powerful to give to a bot that can have 100% accuracy if it want's to.
    5. If you don't want to do any of these then the alternative is adding health regen. This is not a good solution IMO

    The Problem

    • Heavy handed game design: Rare has had a problem with designing SOT to limit how players do certain things. Sometimes is very overt like requiring more players than you can possibly have on your ship, so that you will be forced to team up with another crew, sometimes its you needing to deal more dmg than you can possibly do solo to a statue under the sea, and now it's sicking an aim-bot murder volcano on you if you sail up to an island in your regular ship instead of the rowboat "LIKE WE TOLD YOU TOO!!!"- Rare 2018. Rare needs to let players tackle problems in "new and interesting ways" rather than coding the game to actively sabotage players that don't play the way they intended.

    The Solution

    1. Solution to the "rowboat problem" is actually very easy. Make the water boil around the island 100% of the time. This way it's always better to use the rowboat than it it is to swim, but it's not impossible to do it by parking really close to the island.
    2. Let players find their own ways to do things, even if it makes the activity more difficult. Let people try to solo activities like the hungering deep, and add scaling(more players in the area the harder it is, but still easier than playing solo).

    The Problem

    • Making us go and find equipment/resources: This is a deceptively large problem that Sea of Thieves has. It not only breaks Rares stated design philosophy of"no advantage for time played", but it is also very problematic design especially when used in excess like it is now. It forces players to search randomly to find the things that they need and just hope that they find them. This can cause massive disparities between crews combat power and effectiveness. Why should 1 crew beat another just because(by sheer chance) they found a couple of really good cursed cannon balls and a barrel bomb? How are you supposed to have any idea of what strategy to use if you have no clue what they could possibly have? How can I play the #Rareapproved way if i can't find a rowboat? Scavenging the map for bananas and cannon balls is not fun. It is not good game design, when your players need to start off every game session by running back and forth over and over to loot barrels and stock up their ship.

    The Solution

    1. let them buy resources. There is no good reason we shouldn't be able to buy bananas, cannonballs, etc from the merchants to stock up our ships. looting every barrel for these resources and transporting them 5 at a time is... not a good idea for making a game fun.
    2. Every ship should start with a rowboat already attached. If the rowboat is destroyed, then they can buy another one for X gold from the shipwright. This just makes sense and saves a TON of wasted time, same as buying resources. It also gives NPC's more reasons to exists and be interacted with by players.
    3. Let players buy equipment. This is only barrel bombs at the moment, but it will hopefully more in the future. I don't want cursed cannonballs to be sold simply because I don't think that they should be in the game at all. With barrel bombs, I think that there should be a limit(like 1 per person). Barrel bombs also need to be nerfed IMO(2 or 3 holes instead of 4).

    The Problem

    • No achievement items/no upgrades: With the "FS" we got the kraken set. How do we get the kraken set? by killing the kraken? nope. You get it by using get that you get from doing the same fetch quest that you've been doing since launch. This is a big problem. This game currently has nothing but cosmetics, but the cosmetics don't even mean anything. You get everything the exact same way(other than the event gear, which just means that you played at X time). Upgrades are seen as a no no in SOT, but their really isn't a good reason. Upgrades and side-grades give players new ways to play the game personalize their experience. Games like battlefield, COD, planetside, etc have been giving players TONS of upgrade options without giving unfair advantages to new players. The argument about "everyone being on the same playing field" is simply not valid. Not only are their PC players playing against console players(that alone is a bigger advantage than any upgrade would provide), but you also have: Players that play longer have more resources and equipment like barrel bombs and cursed cannonballs, crews of 1 vs crews of 4(now + alliances), ebony/flintlock pistols ALREADY have working iron sights, and even the guns themselves are already just sidegrades/upgrades. The Eye of reach could easily be an "upgraded" version of the flintlock(more dmg and range, but longer reload).

    The solution

    1. gives us achievement items. Rare doesn't even need to design any new encounters to get this started in a big way. Make skeletons drop bones that we can use to make bones cosmetics, let us carve up sharks, snakes, etc to make themed gear, let us carve up Meg and the kraken to make gear with special effects.
    2. let us upgrade weapons. Some things like better sights could be strictly upgrades, but i think they should definitely stay way from things like just giving weapons more dmg. Making alot of the upgrades be PVP bonuses only would be a great idea(such as giving the new burning sword bonus dmg against plant skeletons). Utility buffs like meg clothes given a small boost to swim speed, are all great options that would give players better reasons to work for gear.

    And that's it for this post. It ended up being very long, but I hope some people and especially Rare can get some ideas from it. I'm sure i made a ton of typos since, but i'll try to correct them when I see them. Let me know what you guy think.

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  • @betsill
    Great write up. This post definitely needs attention!

  • @gunny-o0 Thanks, hope the typos and what-not weren't to bad. I was gonna go back and prof-read, but after spending a couple hours typing I was tired of looking at it lol

  • "let them buy resources. There is no good reason we shouldn't be able to buy bananas, cannonballs, etc from the merchants to stock up our ships. looting every barrel for these resources and transporting them 5 at a time is... not a good idea for making a game fun.
    Every ship should start with a rowboat already attached. If the rowboat is destroyed, then they can buy another one for X gold from the shipwright. This just makes sense and saves a TON of wasted time, same as buying resources. It also gives NPC's more reasons to exists and be interacted with by players.
    Let players buy equipment. This is only barrel bombs at the moment, but it will hopefully more in the future. I don't want cursed cannonballs to be sold simply because I don't think that they should be in the game at all. With barrel bombs, I think that there should be a limit(like 1 per person). Barrel bombs also need to be nerfed IMO(2 or 3 holes instead of 4)."

    Да, да, ещё раз да!
    Yes, yes, yes!!!

  • @vlbobber Спасибо, товарищ

  • I agree with everything but barrel bombs and upgrades. The damage done by keg bombs is appropriate for what they are. And this is not meant to be a competitive game so upgrades aren’t necessary. They want everyone on an even playing field which is your point for stocking ships. I think everything else you said is spot on though. Great write up.

  • @nofears-fun Glad you liked it.
    Upgrades aren't just a competitive thing. Upgrades can alter how you play the game. Things like different scopes/sights offer a very small competitive advantage, but mostly let you decide how you like to aim based on your preference. Also, being able to change the iron sights, makes it so that you aren't penalized by certain weapon skins like the bonecrusher weapons that have REALLY bad obstructions on the top. I personally love the way the bone pistol looks, but I can't use it because of how horrible the sight picture is.

  • @betsill This a very well written post that is very on point on the what makes for good game design. I hope your studing to become a game designer or a critic. It seems to me that you would be good at it as you have the right mindset.

  • I agree with you whole heartedly, hopefully Rare actually pay attention to all the complaints about the volcanos. Its currently ridiculous, and I dont even know how they thought it was ok to put out like that.

  • @shurthugal said

    I think volcanos with random aim would be way worse than they are now. Let me explain that statement. I'm assuming that currently the way they work is a probability based aim bot and background shots. Let's assume they make it completely random. To make it even mildly dangerous they would have to greatly increase the amount of projectiles. Because otherwise the most likely event is all available projectiles more or less evenly distributed over the area. And with only a few projectiles you would only very rarely be hit by one. But with probability working the way it does there would be occasions where you will be bombarded by more projectiles that you can count or handle. Also two many projectiles would look stupid.

    They would need to increase the amount of rocks that the volcanoes shoot. Right now it's very deceptive and doesn't relay how much danger you are actually in. When you look up and see just a few rocks flying out(seemingly randomly) it gives you a false sense of security.

    • I have suggested to make boiling water and lava eruptions independent events in the mega thread, so I'm with you on this.

    Yeah, I think this is a great idea. It doesn't make any sense that the water only boils when the volcano is erupting. Gameplay wise I think it would be a great improvement.

    • I'm rather in favor of resource gathering. They have said that they are looking for ways to make it feel less tedious.

    To each their own I guess. The ability to buy resources will not stop you or anyone else from gathering resources. Giving players the option to skip this time consuming process for gold is still a very good idea IMO. You still need to play the game to get gold to buy these resources after all. There is a post on this forum begging for micro transactions in SOT f*s.

  • @saracens-lament I think they will "soon™" there is way to much backlash for even Rare to ignore. Whether they will implement a proper fix rather than a band-aid is another story lol

  • @shurthugal said in Forsaken shores is a great update that is plagued by the same poor design choices.:

    Again, a randomized approach wouldn't help with that either. And also I don't really see the point you are trying to make with your statement. You should be shot at if you come to close. I have been tricked by them myself and sailed in to close. But that false sense of security seems reasonable. You just have to be careful. I'm not arguing with you about the issue with not being able to have control over your fate. Ideally you should. I would just exclude volcanos from that. You have a choice here after all and an alterative in the rowboat. Maybe they could increase the spread of those projectiles targeted at you a little bit. And get rid of those homing abilities (I'm very sure they can indeed alter their trajectories midair, maybe only slightly, but I really don't like that).

    You shouldn't be "shot at". It's a volcano. A force of nature(like storms). You should have a chance of being hit. It's unreasonable because you have no way to determine what the actual threat is. It's a RNG based system where the volcano has a % chance to aim-bot your a*s out of existence. The rowboat is an illusion of choice. The game gives you a safety bubble if you use. Why would anyone assume "Wow this volcano is obviously targeting me and my ship. I bet if i use this little rowboat that I found the volcano won't target me anymore."? The answer is they wouldn't. No one would reasonably assume that and it's very bad game design.

    I'm not against buying resources. Like you said I would not have to. But If you could buy them they would have to find a way to not make that a necessity.

    ? no they wouldn't. Gathering is currently the only way to get resources. Adding the ability to buy resources wouldn't alter how resource gathering currently works to be any different than it is now.

  • @enf0rcer Thanks friend!

  • so , this is just how it will go every event?
    people who suck but want everything for free taking to the forum to wrongfully complain about stuff that isn't even hard.
    you WAIT untill the vulcano goes quiet and then you do your thing and get away fast.
    all you have to do is set foot on each island, click 4 skeletons and complete 10 voyages, yet here we are again, people are literally complaining again.

  • @shurthugal Ok, sorry if I misunderstood your position. I've been thinking about the volcanoes a lot and what exactly makes them bad right now. I've come to the conclusion that threats(not including other players) should be divided into 2 categories: Sailing threats and land threats. Not including other players, there should never be an "offshore" threat(which volcanoes are now). I'm going to make a post about this later when I get the time, but one of the biggest reasons why offshore threats are very detrimental to this game is that it almost completely removes solo sailing as a valid play-style. Solo players have no way of defending their ships(their life line) while they are on land, so it causes a paradox. Do I not stay on my ship so that I can keep it from sinking so that I can keep playing(but not actually play the game), or do I go ashore and actually play the game, but give up any chance of being able to protect my only means of continuing to play(the ship).

  • @shurthugal said in Forsaken shores is a great update that is plagued by the same poor design choices.:

    @betsill Hmm, about solo play. I do think they tried to make it an option. A very risky one but still an option.

    Obviously it's still and option lol It's just not a valid one unless you want to spend up to twice as much time to do the same thing as everyone else in a game that already demands multiple hours to finish these voyages. It's not about being risky, it's about being unfair. You have no good options as a solo player. You either afk on your ship/flee everything you see a volcano on the island you need to go to or you die and get sent back to the west side of the map. Ships MUST be safe from AI threats while they are anchored off island. If Rare want's to make the area "hard" then this is not the way to do it regardless of crew size. Add difficulty on the island itself, threat out at sea while sailing, but NOT a threat that requires you to be in 2 places at once.

    My biggest issue is that I can do nothing on an island once it erupts. Because when I die I'm back at my ship and have to wait until the eruption is over.

    Yeah, it really sabotages the whole area. Being on the island while it's erupting is epic(i've done it a few times because i just stop caring about keeping my boat alive.), but if you actually want to do the voyages and play the game "properly" you have to leave the second you see smoke.

    So what I would like to see implemented would be an option to spawn at a rowboat. Since rowboats are not really anyone's property there would probably have to be an item for that (this request, in different forms, is already the topic of some suggestion posts on the forums). I think this would also be a good feature for larger crews because they could achieve more and don't have most of the crew tend to their ship.

    This would be a cool option on PvE servers, but i can easily see how this can be abuse for PvP. The main deal is getting to the island with the rowboat. If you die on the island then you can still just cannon yourself back.

    I know this isn't really what you would like to see but given the goal they wanted to achieve with volcanoes I don't really see an option to make it any more playable for solo players.

    Idk what Rare says their goal is with volcanoes, but if this is their goal then it NEEDS to change. This horrible game design ruins the area for everyone. Even the people who say they like it just don't understand that it would be much better if they died for things that they could actually change. They just aren't being punished nearly as harshly because they have crew mates that make it nearly impossible for all of them to die at the same time and lose their ship. Most of them don't really care anyway and will like anything Rare does regardless of whether it's good design or not.

  • Not going to read all the replies after reading that whole slab of text.
    But I agree with you. They say they want an even-playing field but give people an RNG advantage over others. Same as full galleon vs 1 person.

    Now with FS they really messed up. I was just on a galleon with my friends, we were near one island that exploded, we sailed off. But right at that moment another island was going off. There were 4 rocks coming as us at the same time from the same place in the same way.

    We had anchored just before to try an anchor turn. But after getting hit multiple times we couldn't get the anchor up. Started fixing the boat but a megalodon showed up and started attacking us, well as the 2 island with their aimbot rocks.

    You just can't out-fix that, especially when you try to pull the anchor up but get hit everytime.

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