Why do people grief. (An introspective on human behavior and society)

  • Dakkorie
    Marauder
    Insider

    People complain about the behavior of online gameplay often because people don't conform to the societal norms of actual life. They misbehave in a sense. I see poster after poster wail against their keyboard about the unfairness of it all. I don't expect to change many minds but this is a conversation I sort of want to have. First off Rare designed the game to incorporate co-operation and competition. A pirates life is one bent on getting a leg up on the others around you. Taking the things you desire and only out to help yourself and yer crew. This design leaves open the darker side of human's that's open to explore without punishment or deterrent.

    The way we behave is often bent on the still simple principle of "If it hurts don't do it". Putting a game in an open world that allows you to take advantage of other people instead of flat out making it impossible to do negative things to another player opens the doors to negative behavior without consequence. People can explore their darker sides and see where it leads. People would in real life do these very same behaviors is society did not immediately come down on them. The Punishment is too high for the small gain you might recieve, in real life but there is no punishment in an online environment so the gain is worth it.

    So while Sea of Thieves let's such behavior be possible what possible implementations could be done that provide incentives to co-operate?

    For instance the shark raid provided an incentive to co-operate for a short period but shortly after it's over the incentive ceases and the tom-foolery then ensues and fighting begins again.

    I'm thinking about this game and while I keep considering punishments as a way of provide deterrents I'm starting to think such enforcements would not really help for this sort of game. There is little to nothing you can TAKE AWAY from anyone playing this game. When you start the game you start with nothing so nothing lost is ultimately how griefers will stay when griefing. Sunk or Killed they lose nothing and only have to gain.

    I think the right direction for this game is providing content that is only unlocked exclusively when you are able to co-operate. Griefers then would either be left behind or forced to alter their behave for a short time.

    Advance mode: Figure out ways to provide reasons for long term co-operation.
    Factions and working torwards a faction's goal could provide an incentive. That goal could unlock a change in the world you want to see or it could unlock an exclusive reward. Make the goals group orientated as well. Aka a single crew bringing in 200 Barrels of powder for this group goal would provide a smaller amount verses 10 crews bringing in 20 barrels each would provide more progress. (not the best example but an example to illustrate the point)

    I think Rare could do a lot of cool things like this using the weekly events as well.

    EDIT: Let's Establish a definition of for griefing Language can be tough to translate ideas but it's the best we got ATM so let's also not twist the words too heavily
    Griefing with in the scope of OP's Origional intent: To be doing both of these things

    • force your presence and power over another human being with the intent of hindering their ability to do anything but reconcile with you
    • The activity has no in game intended way of gathering a reward
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  • Fantome of Blue
    Ship Mate

    Usually because you've been wronged, so you get revenge. When I get TK'd on other games I used to try to be big about it and report it. I still do for people who are blatantly TKing, but now more often than not I simply shoot back.

    I just get sick and tired of waiting for the game moderators or whoever to take action and look into the incident, which will take several days, if that.

    As for just blatantly being a jerk for no reason, no, I don't do that. That's just people wanting to amuse themselves, and it's usually pre-teens trying to figure out how much they can get away with.

    The downshot is that most gamers are pre-teens. Young who know how to behave, but won't because they want to just push the envelope and be annoying for the sake of it.

    Once incident I'll convey here; I was playing Microsoft's old Allegiance game ages ago when they were still supporting it. I was in a "single life, permanent death" game, where you essentially got one life. One guy was just being annoying in chat, and repeating the same phrase for someone to invite him. Then he started spouting off insults and phrases, trying to be a "big man" in the game. I destroyed his fighter, and then he started spouting off in the game again. I had had enough, and I killed his escape pod, killing his character. He was gone from that specific game permanently. And I'm not afraid to say that that was one of the most satisfying kills in a space fighter combat game that I had ever had.

  • Dakkorie
    Marauder
    Insider

    @fantome-of-blue I loved Allegiance. The community is pretty small but it still exists. You could get it on Steam these days now. I haven't played it in years though!

  • Fantome of Blue
    Ship Mate

    @dakkorie Hey, very cool. I'm seeing the trailer for it now on Steam. It brings back good memories. Truth be told I've got too many games right now, but flying an interceptor, or manning a turret on a gunship or even a rare destroyer or cruiser...great times. Maybe some time down the road.

    Thanks for the heads up.

  • Jeccckk
    Marauder

    I grief because there's nothing else fun left to do in the game. After all, I played the game for 3 hours.

  • Foxdodge
    Champion
    Insider
    Boatswain
    Founder

    Season 20 of South Park offers some great insight on trolling.

  • A Cranky Eskimo
    Master
    Insider
    Founder

    @jeccckk said in Why do people grief. (An introspective on human behavior and society):

    I grief because there's nothing else fun left to do in the game. After all, I played the game for 3 hours.

    While I agree with the intent of the op, this statement and how true it is sadly is a huge part of this behavior occurring often in game. If players had these incentives and repercussions at launch since we told Rare a couple years ago, this would be far less of a problem now... also less repetitive quests and activities on islands that allow each session to be very unique like a sandbox game should. As is the social interaction is the only real thing that changes. Rather than have quests that are the same every time just having freeform merchanting in this pirate game would have been huge for meaningful replayability. As is that only exists in the form of social interaction and the only sandbox element that goes along with that is physical stealable items. Players don’t make more gold or rep for trading animals, or anything that should be in the game along those lines if rare really wanted this game to embrace co op between crews that can kill each other.

    As is this is like a self fulfilling prophecy of human nature, or a failed phsychological test that dosnt prove anything except that people are more likely to act like pirates in a pirate game, with the only real tangible social interaction being helping others for the sake of being nice and connecting ingame activity to real life morals, usually while patting themselves on the back, or stealing for the reward. Which would you choose in a pirate game lol?

    Obviously there is a fine line between being a pirate because the game is fun and just enjoying other people’s bad time. I don’t think the latter is really most people who pvp in this game.

  • UrihamRayne
    Legend
    Insider
    Founder

    i want this meme to die, pvp is not griefing, stop saying it is.

  • BabyLEGGs GHOST

    @dakkorie I really think you and others are misusing the word "griefer". You seem to imply that anyone actively going for PvP is a "greifer". When I sink another ship and take their loot, regardless of how much or how long it took them to gather it, I am not griefing. When I board a sloop and spawn camp the crew, I am not griefing. This is the way the game was intended to play. Griefing only occurs when someone is actively trying to ruin their own crew's experience such as TKing with GP or throwing loot off of the ship. Simply killing/ sinking other players is not griefing, it's being a Pirate.

  • RustyPyrate
    Master
    Insider
    Founder

    Well I think there is two things that could "fix" (More like lessen chances of) griefing, which is either making a co-op way to play and a chance to be friendly, or to outsmart the griefers, or PvPers

    I was chased for a good hour today (I was a solo sloop vs a 4 man "galleon.") What I had to do was sail through a storm and make it through... which they went the wrong way, and I was able to get back to the outpost and sell my chickens

  • WarlordWoody22

    I’ve actually never experienced or witnessed griefing in sea of thieves to date, a lot of pirate business but never anyone acting out of line to the point I’d say it was griefing. In fact I feel it is nearly impossible to actually grief in this game.

    Ships are not named, so there’s no way to actively and knowingly sink the same person over and over. What about being spawn killed repeatedly after they’ve boarded? Well Rare added the amazing ability to change servers or scuttle your vessel, so that’s moot, even still all it takes is one mistake to capitalize upon to sink their vessel.

    I just hear so much about griefing on this game and haven’t seen any honest examples, let alone honest examples where the recipients had no way available to leave the situation. What I do see is a lot of people upset they were sunk by pirates who wanted nothing more than to be a pirate, and are upset enough about it to start calling out grief.

    So in fairness of honesty, what examples can you give me of your experience, maybe I’m wrong.

  • Nobanob
    Marauder
    Insider

    @urihamrayne said in Why do people grief. (An introspective on human behavior and society):

    i want this meme to die, pvp is not griefing, stop saying it is.

    Sitting at shark bait ruining others chance to do the quest is griefing.

    Regardless though calling it grief or PvP. I think it ruins the experience and would instantly opt into a PVE server.

    The best days on sea of thieves are the days I don't see a single sail on the horizon. I don't like that, I want to see sails and go meet them, say hello how's it going. But anyone approaching "friendly" or not are sunk on sight due to the lack of trust anyone has.

    So while you call it PvP literally causes me infernal grief to see sails coming my way.

  • WarlordWoody22

    @nobanob

    So would you say that sitting at a skull fort sinking anyone who comes by is griefing?

    I’ve found a few people camping Hungering deep sites, it happened one time we couldn’t sink them, so we changed servers, wasn’t really a big deal, they were better than us it happens.

    Another time we sailed around and got people to form an armada and we all sank the pirates who were trying to blockade us, it was one of my favorite battles to be honest. Having this happened personally to me more than once I still have no inclination to call it griefing

  • Th3Franch1se
    Master
    Founder

    @babyleggs-ghost Agreed. I’m fine when I get sunk in the middle of the ocean bc I lose a 1 vs 4 fight. It happens. The grief I’ve experienced lately was when 2 legendary status pirates ran up on us during a skull island instance. Fought us for a while and finally beat us. Then they proceeded to sit at the instance and not actually do it. They literally went to make sure no one else could do it. Which isn’t cool in any way. So there is some grief happening on the game, but to call all of it griefing is a little bit of a stretch.

  • Glannigan
    Sailor

    Why do bears p**p in the woods?

    Why do Tiggers bounce?

    ....these questions are deep

  • Fantome of Blue
    Ship Mate

    @jeccckk said in Why do people grief. (An introspective on human behavior and society):

    I grief because there's nothing else fun left to do in the game. After all, I played the game for 3 hours.

    Well, this is a problem. Why are you even playing? I mean why not log off and go do something else?

  • SurveyorPete
    Legend
    Insider

    @babyleggs-ghost

    When I sink another ship and take their loot, regardless of how much or how long it took them to gather it, I am not griefing.

    I would agree with that.

    When I board a sloop and spawn camp the crew, I am not griefing. This is the way the game was intended to play.

    If you are doing so, while another member of your crew loots my ship, I would agree. But if you are doing so, for no reason other than to ruin my play experience then, Sir, yes: you are griefing!

    I would define griefing in SoT as any action intended to ruin someone else's experience of the game with no expectation of making loot, nor protecting yourself.

    It's akin, in real life, to throwing shopping trolleys in the river, or smashing the glass in bus shelters.

  • BabyLEGGs GHOST

    @th3franch1se what is the difference to you if they camp on the skull island? They still bested you. Would it really make you feel better if they beat it and turned in the loot? What’s the difference? Not sure how it’s griefing

  • BabyLEGGs GHOST

    @surveyorpete again what is the difference to you if the results are the same? Does it really make you feel better if there is some reason? If I sink a galleon with 200 chests on it and decide to leave it all in the water to despawn, does it really have a difference on the crew that sunk? If I board your sloop and spawn kill you ten times in a row just for a laugh, does the outcome really change for you if I did it for your loot or supplies?

  • Lady Aijou
    Commander
    Insider
    Boatswain

    @UrihamRayne Please refrain from posting derogatory comments directed at other users, as it is a violation of our Forum rules. Your post has been removed accordingly.

    Derogatory Language
    Name calling, personal attacks and using derogatory language against Community Members, Rare Employees, Global Moderators or Deckhands is not acceptable. Using such language will result in a warning, then temporary ban from the Forums and a final warning. If the action is persistent or increasingly aggressive, a permanent ban from the Forums will be issued.

  • SurveyorPete
    Legend
    Insider

    @babyleggs-ghost

    Does it really make you feel better if there is some reason?

    Yes. In one case, you are playing the game as it was meant to be played. Just as if you checkmate me at chess.

    In the other case, you are just up-ending the chessboard for no reason than to annoy me.

    Do you "key" people's car too... just for a laugh?

  • BabyLEGGs GHOST

    @surveyorpete I respectfully think that analogy if flawed. Try this one: we both bet $100 on a chess game. In one instance I win fair and square and pocket the cash. In the next instance, I win same as before but this time I burn your money after you’ve left.

  • SurveyorPete
    Legend
    Insider

    @babyleggs-ghost

    If you sink my galleon and leave the loot to float (and ultimately despawn), I would not consider that griefing. The very presence of my ship in the vicinity of yours could be seen as a potential threat to be eliminated, and I respect that.

    It was your second suggestion to "board your sloop and spawn kill you ten times in a row just for a laugh" that I consider griefing. By your admission, you are doing it for no other reason that to annoy me.

  • Took1sh
    Commander
    Insider

    You’ve muddled up the game mate, it’s called Sea of Thieves for a reason, pillaging and plundering is in the name. Some may take this too far, I agree- but this whole game is based around pirates after all! What do you become once you hit max reputation? A Pirate Legend. I see where you are looking at, but this point is slightly flawed.

  • CptAnN3BoNnY
    Captain
    Insider

    @dakkorie

    I think it speaks to not only the behavior we see in this game, and really nearly every online multiplayer, but the lack of imagination the vast majority of these players have. I know they might be young but there can't be that many young ones on at a time. Which leads me to think that perhaps the maturity level has a lot to do with things. The "but this is a pirate game" excuse for this behavior is old and worn out. These types of games are just kinda, unfortunately, ripe with people who play this way. There is no punishment system for them otherwise so they know they will get away with whatever they want to do. But I have to say, SOT has more ways to get away or avoid griefing (not to 100%) than any other online multiplayer I've come across.

  • SavageTwinky
    Master
    Insider

    @knightfire098 said in Why do people grief. (An introspective on human behavior and society):

    @dakkorie This is basically the majority of the game, IMO:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma

    not really...

    Its really more like capture the flag without teams and you have to do menial tasks to get items of value, then deliver them to one of 6 goals.

  • Elchu86
    Master
    Insider

    @th3franch1se said in Why do people grief. (An introspective on human behavior and society):

    @babyleggs-ghost The grief I’ve experienced lately was when 2 legendary status pirates ran up on us during a skull island instance. Fought us for a while and finally beat us. Then they proceeded to sit at the instance and not actually do it. They literally went to make sure no one else could do it. Which isn’t cool in any way. So there is some grief happening on the game, but to call all of it griefing is a little bit of a stretch.

    Thats just sounds like two pirates looking for some solid pvp, forts draw pirates in, if they want to occupy and fight to keep the fort for their own personal amusement its not really griefing.

  • SavageTwinky
    Master
    Insider

    @elchupacabraj86 said in Why do people grief. (An introspective on human behavior and society):

    @th3franch1se said in Why do people grief. (An introspective on human behavior and society):

    @babyleggs-ghost The grief I’ve experienced lately was when 2 legendary status pirates ran up on us during a skull island instance. Fought us for a while and finally beat us. Then they proceeded to sit at the instance and not actually do it. They literally went to make sure no one else could do it. Which isn’t cool in any way. So there is some grief happening on the game, but to call all of it griefing is a little bit of a stretch.

    Thats just sounds like two pirates looking for some solid pvp, forts draw pirates in, if they want to occupy and fight to keep the fort for their own personal amusement its not really griefing.

    People don't understand the point of this game. If they want to position themselves between a goal and a player I don't see how that's not "pvping". It's considered griefing if 1 player is forced to work for it? W*F is going on here.

  • Dakkorie
    Marauder
    Insider

    I've updated the OP to help hash out what I considered the term "griefing" in hopes of focusing the thread a bit. While I myself have had little experience with it aside from the frustration of getting spawn camped (something I think rare should attempt to mitigate through various tactic). TBH I see posts of griefing being called out by solo players who do not accept the concept of being outnumbered as something that should put them at a disadvantage.

    I love the idea of the "have-nots" taking from the haves. it is Pirates after all. What I think was not intended was for the "have-nots" to pursue other "have-nots". I don't think it was in the games spirit. I'm not arguing that you cannot do it but more that while coding and designing the game in such a way it it allows the game to be used in an unintended negative way.

    The thread is hopefully not to discuss what is greifing but how to reduce it in a societal way rather than a "hardcoded-into-the-game" way.

    Which is why i brought up the idea of more quests and objectives that require co-operation.

  • NWO Malice

    It's not grief its stupidity. People play a game about being a bloody pirate and expect it to be an ocean of friendlies. People don't play and FPS and wonder why the other team is shooting at them.

    Piracy - Wikipedia

    Piracy - Wikipedia
  • Jeccckk
    Marauder

    @fantome-of-blue said in Why do people grief. (An introspective on human behavior and society):

    @jeccckk said in Why do people grief. (An introspective on human behavior and society):

    I grief because there's nothing else fun left to do in the game. After all, I played the game for 3 hours.

    Well, this is a problem. Why are you even playing? I mean why not log off and go do something else?

    I'm getting my $60 worth, either from your tears or from decent content.

  • Fantome of Blue
    Ship Mate

    @jeccckk said in Why do people grief. (An introspective on human behavior and society):

    @fantome-of-blue said in Why do people grief. (An introspective on human behavior and society):

    @jeccckk said in Why do people grief. (An introspective on human behavior and society):

    I grief because there's nothing else fun left to do in the game. After all, I played the game for 3 hours.

    Well, this is a problem. Why are you even playing? I mean why not log off and go do something else?

    I'm getting my $60 worth, either from your tears or from decent content.

    Well, I'm not crying. I play when you're asleep. And also solo; i.e. no crew.

    But this is kind of my whole point, if you can't appreciate the visuals and the world dynamic, then you might be better served buying a can of spray paint at the local hardware store, and taking your chances with the cops by tagging the local buildings.

    Truly, I don't care if you are griefing on my server, because if I get your name and catch you doing it for me, then you a get support ticket filed against you, and you can go cry to Rare about having your account suspended, and that you'll either have spend another $60 to play immediately, or run the risk of getting caught again when the suspension is over.

  • xBluezy
    Master
    Insider

    @warlordwoody22 said in Why do people grief. (An introspective on human behavior and society):

    I feel it is nearly impossible to actually grief in this game. ... What I do see is a lot of people upset they were sunk by pirates who wanted nothing more than to be a pirate, and are upset enough about it to start calling out grief. ... So in fairness of honesty, what examples can you give me of your experience, maybe I’m wrong.

    I would agree that the word “grief” is way overused in this forum. However I have, in fact, been a victim of true griefers on a few occasions.

    In my first week of playing I was solo slooping in an open crew. I sailed around for about an hour collecting chests and then a random joined my crew. As soon as he joined I caught him tossing booty off the ship! I started talking, asking what he was doing and that only made it worse. He probably heard the frustration in my voice and that was what he was looking for. I then tried to turn the boat around to get my booty and he just wouldn’t let me. He would drop anchor, raise sails, grab the helm and not let go. There was literally nothing I could do at that point to sail the boat. I tried to swim back to my chests and then he just took off in the boat. When I respawned on the ship he just dropped anchor again and looked at me and started dancing. I cut my losses and left.

    On another occasion I was solo slooping and a random joined my crew. He started doing some weird things - it seemed like he was a newbie who didn’t know how to play, however I noticed he was wearing legendary clothing, so he clearly knew how to play. He started dropping anchor and raising sails in the middle of the ocean I called him out on it. At that point he admitted to me that he only joined my crew to troll me, but said I seemed like “a cool guy” and decided to actually play. He then proceeded to give me a lesson in trolling and showed me all of the tactics trolls use to grief people, and he even asked if I wanted to join a galleon and troll people with him because you can only troll a galleon if there is more than one person doing it. We did actually play, and when we had a bunch of loot on board he even said “man, my troll side is wanting to come out” which was nerve racking. We went to an outpost and I left. I dodged that bullet.

    I’m just trying to demonstrate to you that, yes, there are trolls and griefers out there on the seas, but not everything people claim to be griefing is actually griefing.

  • WarlordWoody22

    @jonaldinho

    Well said.

    It seems that the honest cases of griefing do indeed come from your own team mates, especially difficult on a sloop to deal with.

    Part of me wishes there was a way to remove players from session as a result of this.

    The other part realizes that would make it easier for people to troll.

    Having closed sessions I think was a good way to deal with that but it’s not a complete fix and I can understand the difficulties of finding a true solution to this problem.

    I didn’t mean to say griefing doesn’t happen, that’s ignorant, but I feel griefing from enemy players is extremely limited to the point of being nearly impossible. Griefing your shipmates on the other hand is the risk we unfortunately have to take when grouping with randoms. Good luck out there

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