Sword Lunge Water Momentum Exploit Makes Boarding Too Easy

@xyspacetatoryx said in Sword Lunge Water Trick Makes Boarding Too Easy:

@aelis-du-nochd said in Sword Lunge Water Trick Makes Boarding Too Easy:

@xyspacetatoryx said in Sword Lunge Water Trick Makes Boarding Too Easy:

The whole idea of sea battles is to defeat the other ship to gain their treasure. If you take away the sword lunge you're virtually taking away the possibility of boarding aside from slowly and painfully swimming to the enemy ship. This would make almost every fight a cannon fight whilst at sea. This, as you could imagine, would make mobile fights lackluster due to cannon lag. Aiming with cannons can be completely unreliable as anything fired out of the cannon when you're ship is moving lags behind the aimed shot. 9 out of 10 times you'll land behind the enemy ship. If you can't listen to someone boarding your ship through the sound of them breaching water and climbing up your ladder then that's on you. Sword lunge stays 100% imo.

Huh, I don't have any problems aiming the cannons. So we're at an impasse now where you feel that cannons are too unreliable to be the primary method of sea battles (which it was in history), so you need the sword dash through water. Whereas I feel that the cannons work fine but sword dashing through water is a little much right now. Your post seems to indicate that your feelings on the matter are to 'get good' at detecting when someone breaks the water climbing onto your ladder, a sound effect that can easily be overpowered by crashing through the recently consistently monstrous waves, cannon fire, sniper fire. Whereas I could say that you could also just 'get good' at aiming a cannon. There is an element of 'get good' in any game, but it's not a very good argument. Hence, that's why my arguments are based on concepts like 'apparent intended design' and 'realism'.

https://imgur.com/UXQUlb9
I'm not trying to say get good, I'm trying to say that the cannons are quite literally a problem. If you'll excuse my crude drawing you'll see that I've illustrated what I mean via paint. This puts a skill ceiling so high that it pretty much nullifies the possibility of landing on an enemy ship, let alone boarding it from the ocean. I should know since I do it, rarely, but I do it. There's a thin line between realism and game play aspects, right now the cannon needs to be a game play aspect because it's much too hard to use cannons when you've got full billow, or any speed for that matter.

Mmk, just to confirm I hopped on and tested, it seems that players aren't carrying the ship's momentum when the cannon is being fired like cannon balls do. This is definitely an issue that needs to be fixed.

I think both things should be fixed in that case.

@soopavillain420 It was stated that the sword dashing through water was unintended. The only reason it's even still in the game is because the devs saw it as a fun and silly exploit of the physics engine. The second it stops being fun and silly, it will be fixed.

One of the things people fail to think when it comes to bug fixes is priority. What would you rather have fixed first? Cannons not shooting properly, or skeletons not spawning correctly on forts and islands? Trying to patch a hole but the actions cancelling itself or having your ships angle going over a wave causing you to clip through the floor and into the water?

Just because it hasn't been fixed "yet" doesn't mean it wont "ever".

@aelis-du-nochd I agree. When something leaves the bore of a cannon it should go in its intended direction rather than a fake pre-dispositioned angle. As for the sword lunge, it's something that makes combat in all situations more interesting and fluid. Swinging a sword wildly at an enemies direction then stopping right after a lunge feels clunky and unresponsive. With the sword dash techniques you can take out groups of skeletons with fines and, with enough skill, triumph galleons as your sloop friend wales at them with cannonballs. This one mechanic feels glorious in comparison to monotonous swinging and poking that the base mechanics are.

TL;dr : Cannon broke, sword lunge good good :^)

@xyspacetatoryx Nobody is arguing sword dashing shouldn't exist, the sword dash bug that maintains full momentum from land to water and glides super long distance is the problem.

@miles-traveler "It was named as an unintended effect"

I've read all the patch notes and taken a look at things rare intends to fix in the future... They've made no mention of sword dashing as far as i'm aware... Got any links i can visit to confirm your claim? :O

"Love it when people say "end of story" to self proclaim 'victory' in a discussion."

It's not a proclamation of victory, it's a statement that it's not even a problem to begin with. For instance, complaining about PvP in a PvPvE game is not a valid complaint as it's not a valid issue to begin with... End of story. Catch my drift?

"And two people have already addressed how easily that 'loud' sound can be masked."

Strategy is a thing in PvP games... Regardless of what you personally feel about it... And yet if you expect people to board you, you can still hear that noise past the chaos... Just FYI, it's called paying attention and being aware of your surroundings and your situation.

Always expect people to attempt boarding, ALWAYS, no exceptions.

"Especially if your 2 man sloop is busy dealing combat and patching from a 4 man Galeon."

Then you need to adjust your tactics accordingly, what the hell did you expect? The enemy to not be able to do anything while you are busy patching your ship? Hell no, that's the best time for your enemy yo strike against you, so make sure you keep that in mind as you plan out your own strategy.... It's PvP, your enemy WILL take advantage of openings in your defense. :P

You are not entitled to being protection from boarders just because of your own careless tactics.

@miles-traveler You've gotta understand that sword dashing from land to water is the smallest part of the exploit. When I think of the sword dash mechanic the combat aspect takes up 70% of the topic because that's what it deserves. Ofcourse it helps with traversing water but swimming is mind numingly boring. If they keep the slow swimming speed and take out the sword lunge then it's gonna kill a nice bit of the player base. On one hand the combat is better and it makes the game less monotonous when travelling small distances through water. On the other hand only a small amount of people know how to do it and will accuse the other player of hacking. It's really a case of "if you can do it and I can't then it should be removed". Now THIS part of the argument is "get good". Become a better pirate using different tools, don't become a skeleton with the same moves over and over again.

@sweltering-nick Removing a bug strategy opens up avenues to others being more viable. Removing it doesn't remove strategy and if it is the only form of 'strategy' or source of 'strategy' in ship combat we got much worse issues in this game XD

The ship combat in this game is full of strategy, including boarding. This specific method of boarding is a glitch of momentum and water physics, and in my experience and looking at this post, the experience of others, is poor for the overall feel of the game. By my opinion and theirs, which one wins out is up to Rare. Because you won't get any arrogant internet statements like 'end of story' from me, which implies discussion is closed because I am simply 'right'.

@xyspacetatoryx Anybody can make this 'kill the player base because I know what everyone wants and can predict all outcomes' argument.

I could say "Keeping the sword dash will kill a portion of the player base who don't like it as a boarding tactic." This is a fear statement and not a real argument, those ended long ago "If you don't agree on me people will leave the game!"

Get good with the other tools in the game and learn to board ships in other ways?

Also who the f**k cannot do it? It is easy, stand on land, face water, use the lunge move on the sword. Nobody who wants the momentum bug fixed cannot do it.

Removing the momentum bug is not as exaggerate as "become a skeleton with the same moves over and over." Again, more extreme phrasing rather than arguments. Which ended long ago.

@miles-traveler said in Sword Lunge Water Trick Makes Boarding Too Easy:

@lenny2k3 I have no problem with it, if you can't manage it maybe you need to 'git gud' and are 'getting what you deserve'. Wow arguments like this work so well!

Dude, are you even reading through your own post before you click "submit"? This entire sentence literally makes no sense, and carries no correlation to what I wrote.

Why even post on a forum when you not only have a severe lack of critical thinking skills, but also completely ignore what other people are writing and just make up stories as you go? Just create a blog and have riveting conversations with yourself, because you obviously do not lack the imagination. Geez.

@miles-traveler said in Sword Lunge Water Momentum Exploit Makes Boarding Too Easy:

Get good with the other tools in the game and learn to board ships in other ways?

Look at this nonsensical gibberish.
Tools have limitations. There are no "getting good" at tic-tac-toe. If both players knows the simple rules, no one can win. Same goes for every game. There's a limit to tactics.

@sweltering-nick said in Sword Lunge Water Trick Makes Boarding Too Easy:

@aelis-du-nochd "You'd be surprised how close I can get to a ship without being peppered by cannonballs."

Didn't say you couldn't avoid that... You can avoid that even without sword dash... Argument is irrelevant.

Wasn't arguing about sword dash here, was simply commenting that rope swinging would certainly work. It's directed at your comment about getting peppered with cannonballs. Sword dash is totally irrelevant to this point on either side.

"Also it's not that hard to predict a ship's trajectory, sword dash through the water, then swim under the surface, which you can't hear."

You still have to actually use the ladder, and that produces a rather loud noise, and you can't climb the ladder fast enough to avoid having the ships crew shoot you before you get to the top. :P

The only way to avoid it is if the crew isn't paying attention... Which means it's the crews fault for getting owned.

"Also once again I mention that sounds like people swimming and climbing up ladders are easily masked by just about any other action in the game"

That's called Strategy.

"and even crashing over a wave in the seas that have been unusually rough over the last few days."

If you can successfully board and enemy ship with sword dash whilst both ships are moving at full speed, you deserve to board the ship. My cruising alternative doesn't produce crashing wave noises, as i move just too fast for swimmers to catch up, and anyone successfully boarding my ship makes a noise i can easily hear, and shoot them before they can climb up fully, which launches them into the water, now they can not catch up, nor can they get back to their own ship easily as they are too close to the ship for mermaids...

Grabbing a ladder from a moving ship just as it crashes over a wave, or the simultaneous instant thunder cracks from a storm, or the ship you're boarding happens to fire their cannons isn't strategy, it's luck, which is fine, there's an element of luck in anything in life. My primary arguments against letting the sword dash unreasonably carry momentum through water is two-fold. "It is an unintentional, though fun bug, that should be limited, not removed." And "As long as this remains a viable option for boarding ships, the developers have less of a reason to add new options for boarding that could be more fun, or fix issues like another poster brought up to me with how firing yourself out of a cannon does not currently function properly." It's an argument for the health of the future development of the game, not a whine about getting boarded too easily.

Leaving me free to plop cannonballs on the enemy's ship until they've sunk.

Even using cannons to shoot yourself on board has less risk, can be easily masked by other noises, and if you miss, you're far enough away from your own ship to just grab the mermaid back and try again. :P

So why is sword dash such an issue when it has it's own downsides? Don't cherry pick your arguments, consider all factors... Easily done if you visualize scenarios and compare them with eachother. Just because it has upsides, doesn't mean it doesn't have downsides. :P

Sword dashing in the specific instance we are discussing, that is, through water without losing momentum until the very end, is a bug that makes it less likely that new players will continue to play the game. Less likely that people will buy the game, as there's this hidden mechanic that veterans will have mastered by the time that they pick the game up. Less likely that further development on ship vs ship combat will be explored and improved upon.

@captain-arcanic said in Sword Lunge Water Momentum Exploit Makes Boarding Too Easy:

@miles-traveler said in Sword Lunge Water Trick Makes Boarding Too Easy:

@nwo-azcrack I don't mind you having a differing opinion. I expect that anywhere, if everyone had the same opinions I would have jumped off a plank long ago, boring.

I think there are better solutions to getting about. Much as I like dashing from the tip of the ship on Galeon's Grave to the sea below. I see a lot of negative effects of it. Others don't. Rare ultimately decides.

Yep. you can dash from the peak at the center of galleon's grave directly into the sea and your ship. No fuss no muss. Or from your crows nest to anywhere within say 150 feet of your ship.

I think nerfing the water momentum would be the best option. They already allow slowed momentum when you dive into water from a height. It's why I like to dive from the crows nest when visiting deep wrecks. The same coding should work for the lunge.

This is all I've been arguing for.

@lenny2k3 Replying to the person who said it is just a matter of 'git gud!' then turned around and said they couldn't use the cannons for boarding. But wow on getting needlessly insulting.

the only thing I agree with iss the quietness, people always use cannons and I've never had someone surprise me with the dash, you can hear them climb up the ladder

@captain-arcanic said in Sword Lunge Water Momentum Exploit Makes Boarding Too Easy:

I kinda want crouching, laying prone and sneaking even more than changing the lunge. In conjunction with removing the gamertag. But let's face it, all kinds of combat moves would be cool additions to this game.

Bug fixing and game development would be handled by separate teams in a standard manner, so they could do both fix it and develop new combat stuff at the same time.

I do feel that as you've mentioned, making the dash lose momentum in water is the correct solution, it keeps a lot of fun and restricts the amount of abuse cases.

@miles-traveler said in Sword Lunge Water Momentum Exploit Makes Boarding Too Easy:

@lenny2k3 Replying to the person who said it is just a matter of 'git gud!' then turned around and said they couldn't use the cannons for boarding.

And the gibberish continues. What does this even mean?

But wow on getting needlessly insulting.

It's almost like the moment people like you have no real response, you immediately jump on top of a high-horse and start virtue signaling. The greatest irony is that you don't even see your own hypocrisy.

Among all the glitches in games that become features, I feel that this should be one. There are many reasons to keep it, and few to remove it.

1. It's fun to do. Fun is the whole point of this game; of all games.
2. Everyone can do it. You have a sword equipped by default and can easily do it yourself.
3. It's so easy to do. Seriously it's very simple to do.

The only thing I'd suggest is that they allow you to do this unarmed instead of with the sword; to make it so you can do it even without a sword equipped and make it into a full fledged feature of the game.

@lenny2k3 Let me say it really carefully then.

People saying stopping people from boarding with sword dash is a matter of 'git gud'.

Same people saying boarding with cannons is too hard and unreliable.

I have no problem boarding with cannons, so the response is the same as theirs, 'git gud'.

Got it?

@notsid-probably said in Sword Lunge Water Momentum Exploit Makes Boarding Too Easy:

Among all the glitches in games that become features, I feel that this should be one. There are many reasons to keep it, and few to remove it.

1. It's fun to do. Fun is the whole point of this game; of all games.
2. Everyone can do it. You have a sword equipped by default and can easily do it yourself.
3. It's so easy to do. Seriously it's very simple to do.

The only thing I'd suggest is that they allow you to do this unarmed instead of with the sword; to make it so you can do it even without a sword equipped and make it into a full fledged feature of the game.

No one here is actually talking about completely removing it, just making it less impactful, losing momentum as you travel through the water seems to be the optimal solution.

@miles-traveler said in Sword Lunge Water Momentum Exploit Makes Boarding Too Easy:

@lenny2k3 Let me say it really carefully then.

People saying stopping people from boarding with sword dash is a matter of 'git gud'.

Same people saying boarding with cannons is too hard and unreliable.

I have no problem boarding with cannons, so the response is the same as theirs, 'git gud'.

Got it?

No I don't.

"I" am not "people". You don't reply to one person, with the premise of another persons argument.
Good job trying to sound condescending though, when you are the one acting like a crazy person.

@lenny2k3 Nmmm I replied to him about his topic. I replied to you about getting gud at the other tools in the game, as you implied using and dealing with the sword dash was a 'git gud' manner. Two seperate replies. If you combined them that is on you.

@miles-traveler "Removing a bug strategy opens up avenues to others being more viable."

With the limited game mechanics we have currently? No... Removing the sword dash, doesn't make rope-swinging obsolete either.. Rope-swinging would just be the superior close-range option.

Removing the sword dash doesn't open up more options, it removes 1 option. :P

Sword dash is a good medium-range option for boarding enemy ships... It's useless close-range because you're just slip under the enemy ship and keep going a fair distance, meaning you have to swim back anyway... and cannons are the best long-range option.

Is there a problem? Nope.

Calling it a buggy strategy means you need to prove it's a bug to begin with for your argument to hold any value... I'm still eagerly awaiting the link where it says sword-dashing across water is a bug... Seeing as it's a cartoony pirate game, it's kinda hard to know what's a bug, and what isn't.

"Removing it doesn't remove strategy"

I never said that, not implied that... Just said masking your sounds, is a basic strategic move you can do with ANY gameplay mechanic, bug or not. Hence that argument of masking the noise, has no value... The clue should be in the phrase, actually, you MASK the noise, you don't remove it... You can still hear it if you pay attention... Which i keep saying.

"and if it is the only form of 'strategy' or source of 'strategy' in ship combat we got much worse issues in this game XD"

It's not, you can mask your blunderbuss assassination shots with cannonball noises, you can mask your cannon-boarding with excessive cannonfire... You can mask underwater gunpowder barrel explosions with excessive cannonfire too.. You can mask ladder-boarding-noise with gunpowder barrel explosion noise. The list goes on and on and on.

Nobody ever said sword dashing was the only strategy... It's merely one of many. :P

"The ship combat in this game is full of strategy, including boarding."

Everything about a game, is strategy and tactics... The premise of games, universally is to try and win... For that you need strategy and tactics. Moving on.

"This specific method of boarding is a glitch of momentum and water physics"

That could be easily fixed by setting a maximum water-momentum for players... And to do that, rare would only need to alter a number in the coding from whatever number the current gradual water momentum limit number is, and just increase that number higher.

You already slow down your momentum in the water gradually, all they need to do to fix this is to increase this gradual-momentum-decrease...

An easy hotfix, they just need to change a single number... Seeing as they haven't done that, i'm assuming it's not a bug... It's a cartoony game, why not allow cartoony loogic? : /

"By my opinion and theirs, which one wins out is up to Rare."

That goes without saying, of course. x]

"Because you won't get any arrogant internet statements like 'end of story' from me, which implies discussion is closed because I am simply 'right'."

It implies the discussion is closed, not because that person is simply right, but because a fact of reality makes the topic itself irrelevant... Hence "end of story", seeing as continuing the discussion is pointless, as there is no leeway on the topic in question...

For instance: "This is a PvPvE game, complainign about PvP, is asinine, end of story." (Random unrelated example)

Whether or not you accept that fact, is a different matter entirely.

@sweltering-nick So as I said, it is the arrogance to assume your point of view is fact and therefore you are simply right and therefore discussion is over. The only way a discussion closes is if you stop replying to a moderator closes it. It doesn't close because you declared your opinion fact.

@miles-traveler said in Sword Lunge Water Momentum Exploit Makes Boarding Too Easy:

@lenny2k3 Nmmm I replied to him about his topic. I replied to you about getting gud at the other tools in the game, as you implied using and dealing with the sword dash was a 'git gud' manner. Two seperate replies. If you combined them that is on you.

Even when called on it, you still keep making things up, all the while insisting that your narrative is correct, when you can so easily reread things by hopping two 1-2 pages back. Truly astouding.

Nevertheless, entertaining the ideas of you and likeminded people is a complete waste of time. Lastly, I humbly suggest you take up some reading, it might actually save your life.

[mod edited - removed link]

@lenny2k3 Wow, if you are going to start calling people mentally ill, incapable of thinking and insult anybody who holds a different opinion "likeminded people". Then you have not only hit the lose button on a debate, where insults imply you ran out of real content and lost your temper. But indicate that you are highly toxic, as such I have nothing further to say to you.

@miles-traveler "So as I said, it is the arrogance to assume your point of view is fact and therefore you are simply right and therefore discussion is over."

So explain why it's not a fact, instead of whining that someone said the phrase "end of story".

I don't whine that you made a strawman of several of my arguments... I skip straight to debunking your arguments with logic instead... Sometimes even humoring your strawmen ideas of my arguments, because i play on peoples inherent lack of logic... I don't need to whine and cry about attitudes. :P

"The only way a discussion closes is if you stop replying to a moderator closes it."

We can discuss all you want, and we'd eventualyl still come to the conclusion that continuing to discuss the subject would be pointless as it's sort of set in stone by various factors such as Rare's word, facts of reality, the law, etc...

You can argue that the laws of physics don't apply to football all you want, for instance... That doesn't mean you can actually change the laws of physics however.

You can argue that it's a bug all you want, but without confirmation that Rare has addressed it as a bug, there's no real way of knowing it... You can argue it's unfair all you want, and yet i've posted several valid reasons why your claim is wrong.

You could crush my argument in one fell swoop by posting the link where Rare says it's a bug, but instead of doing that, you'd rather get obsessed that i said "end of story" once, regarding a fact of reality, you emotionally disagree with. : /

@miles-traveler said in Sword Lunge Water Momentum Exploit Makes Boarding Too Easy:

@lenny2k3 Wow, if you are going to start calling people mentally ill, incapable of thinking and insult anybody who holds a different opinion "likeminded people". Then you have not only hit the lose button on a debate, where insults imply you ran out of real content and lost your temper. But indicate that you are highly toxic, as such I have nothing further to say to you.

@lenny2k3 said in Sword Lunge Water Momentum Exploit Makes Boarding Too Easy:

It's almost like the moment people like you have no real response, you immediately jump on top of a high-horse and start virtue signaling. The greatest irony is that you don't even see your own hypocrisy.

Like clockwork. L**o.

@sweltering-nick Looking for the vid where they said they were keeping the bug 'for now' to see how it played out. Watched it way back when the game was in testing. Will get back to you when I can with that.

I dislike the arrogance of people simply saying they are correct. If you argued it should stay or you don't believe it is a bug I would be A-OK with that. 'End of story' implied there was no further discussion, which is not how debating works. I have made my arguments as to why the water momentum is bad as strong as it is now. And stand by those. As for it being a bug which all sensibilities imply due to how it works in the game, I will find the video as soon as possible.

@sweltering-nick https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPLrwFex1LY

Funny but unrelated, another momentum glitch with the water physics

sounds like you're still learning. you can most definitely hear people in the water, a sword lunge is definitely not faster than a galleon full sails into the wind, high skilled pvp players don't even use the cutlass, the blunderbuss can indeed 1 shot you but there is risk involved now, it's not a good weapon for pvp. The only time a blunderboos is "good" for pvp is if you board a galleon of clueless players.

@scarface1 said in Sword Lunge Water Momentum Exploit Makes Boarding Too Easy:

No. This is one of the coolest mechanics in the game that requires a little skill to pull off and you want it taken out? No thanks.

Btw if you whiff it, you’re pretty much screwed in the cooldown animation so it is balanced in that regard. Anyone can do it as well so I feel it’s fine the way it is.

You also have to think about having a cutlass and that movement utility or swap to a pistol/sniper and lose that. It’s fine the way it is.

Once more, no one is saying to remove it entirely, simply make your momentum dissipate faster than it currently does so you're not getting quite the distance in quite the same amount of time.

@sweltering-nick https://www.reddit.com/r/xboxone/comments/84vzkj/its_rare_ltd_developers_of_sea_of_thieves_ask/dvsu0p7/?context=3

Reddit AMA where the developers say they are monitoring if it's overpowered or not. This was only a month ago, so I'm not sure how "on the radar" it is after they acknowledge it.